Ban brinstar and rainbow cruise

[EPsilon933]

Why are we trying to force unfit-for-competitive-play stages into the game and making complicated rules to compensate for their unfitness?

 

[-ACE-]

If it were up to me, only FD, BF, DL64, YS, PS, and FoD would be legal.

Sorry to all the people that love cool looking stages with pokemons and ships and disappearing platforms and weird edges and lots of rom for running and camping, but PS and FoD have enough of that for me. Lol.

 

[Rubyiris]

i miss japes, corneria, and green greens.

 

[Ripple]

Why are we trying to force unfit-for-competitive-play stages into the game and making complicated rules to compensate for their unfitness?

what makes this unfit? because they move? because they are random? last time I checked, melee was a PLATFORM FIGHTER. if you want a game with all flat stages that do nothing then play SSF4.

super smash bros (not even just melee or brawl or 64) doesn't has just PvP so you can't argue that. in every series you have to be able to adapt to the stages or play a character with over all good tools. if they can't compete with those tools, then your character is likely bad.

every stage has an effect on a match up. some small, others big. having a big advantage is not inherintly bad. look at FD. one of the most polar stages in the game because of the fear of MArth taking a spacie there, sheik taking a chaingrabbable there, and in a rare instance, IC's in all match ups.

I've seen FD banned in way more instances than brinstar or RC. why? because its extremely polar

If it were up to me, only FD, BF, DL64, YS, PS, and FoD would be legal.

Sorry to all the people that love cool looking stages with pokemons and ships and disappearing platforms and weird edges and lots of rom for running and camping, but PS and FoD have enough of that for me. Lol.

but it isn't up to you. hell, its not even up to the majority. (not being mean)

its what is determined unfit by our criteria. which is usually said to be "do this or lose" but it has never been officially said by the MBR.

@ rubyiris

I do to, but you could make a case for fox on cornaria. or even fin camping. Green greens should be unbanned IMO and so should japes until it is proven to be broken by falco

 

[_ToAsT_]

If it were up to me, only FD, BF, DL64, YS, PS, and FoD would be legal.

Sorry to all the people that love cool looking stages with pokemons and ships and disappearing platforms and weird edges and lots of rom for running and camping, but PS and FoD have enough of that for me. Lol.

I second this. I could do without the rest of them, but I can't complain since luckily, most people I've played at tourneys counter-pick Neutral stages. Every now and then, someone will pick something weird and I have to adapt.

 

[-ACE-]

How exactly is this not up to the majority?

 

[Ripple]

How exactly is this not up to the majority?

because the majority do not rule in a competetive society. we are not (should not) be utlitarian in our thinking.

does the majority benefit from banning brinstar? probably.

is that a legitimate way to go around banning something? hell no.

why? youre artificially buffing every character but jiggs and peach.

its based on baises that most of the community share. its not objective, its subjective.

anything done based upon subjective reasoning (BEYOND the initial rules of how to play.such as stock or timer is bad. it causes spits in the community and can cause huge arguments. (something the brawl community knows a lot about)

 

[ss118]

it's ironic you are promoting a competitive society when the very idea of counterpicking works against such a mentality.

 

[-ACE-]

This is biased, but... do jiggs and peach NEED buffing?

Seriously I'm just encouraging healthy debate.

 

[Ripple]

it's ironic you are promoting a competitive society when the very idea of counterpicking works against such a mentality.

I already told you that the current system is partially broken.

I don't advocate using the current CP system. but thats another argument.

 

[Ripple]

This is biased, but... do jiggs and peach NEED buffing?

Seriously I'm just encouraging healthy debate.

do they need nerfing? because that's what youre doing right now if you ban RC and/or brinstar.

the answer is no but we're talking about stages. do JIggs and Peach over centralize the CP system? no they do not as show for YEARS.

they have strong POLAR CPs. that is their particular shrength.

polar != degenerate

 

[-ACE-]

So, hypothetically, under the current system, if a global tournament were held, what do you think are the chances of the grand finals being jiggs vs peach?

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

Just use the European standrad ruleset.

Neutrals
FD
DL
BF
YS
FoD

Counterpick
PS

I agree with this... but it's probably just cause I play Falco and refuse to counterpick people to rainbow / kj64 just to time them out loool. I think the reason why most of the top players don't like too many counterpicks is because they relying on their consistency rather than a gimmick war. Hbox is willing to take away Brinstar for RC, fair trade for him because he's more likely to win on any neutral anyways, and I think that's the way it should be.

Neither of these stages have random elements in them and make for unique counter picks, even though I hate rainbow cruise and am not a big fan of brinstar there is no reason for either to be banned. they are legit counter picks for the character advantages they can offer.

I don't think the problem with RC / Brinstar are that they're "random".

The problem with counterpicks is that sets become just a counterpick war. I feel like a stage shouldn't determine the outcome of multiple matchups the way Brinstar / RC do.

IF you don't know why they're legal, you much not be very smart.

I understand why you play Pokemon instead of other, tcgs. (:

Remember when you made a thread asking why people didn't like you?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

How exactly is this not up to the majority?

CUZ


also whoever said POKEfloats doesn't know what's up. this isn't just a random fall in the stage but in a number of places you can fall in and die i've lost a match because right as I resprawned(still on the platform not able to move) sodowoodo moved the platform over the blastline and killed me before I could even move. That's beyond BS. there are a number of places on that stage.

In many cases go to spot A I go to B and I win have any of you even tehspammer matches? they're art but still.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krLCZrQfZSk&feature=related

This like like the master of PF He makes me wish I mained fox sometimes.

but even against falcon who runs faster and goes up and down nearly as fast with better air speed scar struggled to do anything.

also the fact there is no recovering is BS.

brinstar depths is seriously more legit in like every way. the camping isn't as broken, you don't have to just camp the whole time, and it's impossible to really time out solidly.also wall camping is uber fail because it's easy to sheild WL on the thing that makes your WD longer and dair marthyoshi can throw eggs and wait.

it also doesn't force people into the air any longer than like a few frames at most like a short hop.

melee's air vs air game is very very imblanced why that's important.



oh I like camping

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

i like armada's rules.


seriously brinstar is ********. watching a peach break the stage than go to one side and camp with turnips is wack as ****. raindow cruise is bad too.

 

[Eggm]

Scar's SPOC rules that inspired the current ruleset was the best ruleset ever made. Look it up.

 

[Ripple]

So, hypothetically, under the current system, if a global tournament were held, what do you think are the chances of the grand finals being jiggs vs peach?

I'm not good with odds. but it wouldn't be that high IMO. peach and jiggs's strengths aren't "neutral" stages. they are the CP stages.

IDK why you asked me this.

 

[-ACE-]

The reason I asked was just to get people thinking. In reality the chances are high. But I realize that my question does not help my argument much, because the chances of jiggs vs peach gf being high would mostly be because mango, hbox, and armada ****, and not because the current stage list gives those characters a slight advantage. I still think it is something to be considered.

 

[Ripple]

Scar's SPOC rules that inspired the current ruleset was the best ruleset ever made. Look it up.

Scar's ruleset was the most biased and subjective ruleset I have ever seen. he banned things for NO GOOD REASON other than popular demand. I already went over why doing such a thing is a horrible idea

The problem with counterpicks is that sets become just a counterpick war. I feel like a stage shouldn't determine the outcome of multiple matchups the way Brinstar / RC do.

this is hypocritcal if you support FD at all just to let you know.

and they aren't degenerate. it does not become a "do this or lose" situation. jiggs is VERY good on brinstar. does she auto win? no

players might, characters do not

 

[Ryzol_]

Yoshi island
FD
battlefield
Fountain
dreamland
Kongo
Pokemon stadium 1
RC
Brinstar
Mute city
pokefloats

11 stages

use full stage list striking. no "neutral" or "cp" that whole idea is pretty stupid. neutrals as we know it promote certain characters more than others. a true neutral is a median of bais.

How do you determine match two? Match one is inherently fair because of stage striking, but being cp to mute city or pokefloats is pretty bs.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

this is hypocritcal if you support FD at all just to let you know.

and they aren't degenerate. it does not become a "do this or lose" situation. jiggs is VERY good on brinstar. does she auto win? no

players might, characters do not

I don't support FD at all. I was actually going to say something about that in the post but I didn't really see how it'd fit. But yeah, I think FD is by far the worst neutral.

 

[Ripple]

How do you determine match two? Match one is inherently fair because of stage striking, but being cp to mute city or pokefloats is pretty bs.

due to the number of polar stages, 2 bans would be necessary.

I don't support FD at all. I was actually going to say something about that in the post but I didn't really see how it'd fit. But yeah, I think FD is by far the worst neutral.

yeah for a professional player using logic and not being biased!!!

seriously zhu, you should help me out with this.

 

[KevinM]

hax I already told you my opinion on the CP system :D

 

[-ACE-]

I don't see how FD can be THAT bad...

It allows chaingrabbing... but the 2 characters that get chaingrabbed the worst (spacies) just happen to be the 2 best characters in the game (imo) and they (still) **** on that stage.

Should chaingrabbing be hindered so much anyway? As it is, we only have one stage where it is completely exploitable.

 

[Ryzol_]

due to the number of polar stages, 2 bans would be necessary.

So why only use 11 stages?

Why not every stage on except the pick X or lose stages (Hyrule), stage strike each round, and use DSR? If every round uses stage striking then I don't see why stages like Corneria, Venom, or Green Greens should be banned. Just pick characters before stage striking begins so there aren't any surprises.

 

[Ripple]

I don't see how FD can be THAT bad...

It allows chaingrabbing... but the 2 characters that get chaingrabbed the worst (spacies) just happen to be the 2 best characters in the game (imo) and they (still) **** on that stage.

Should chaingrabbing be hindered so much anyway? As it is, we only have one stage where it is completely exploitable.

so what if "its just one stage"? that doesn't matter.

"Should stage adaptation be hindered so much anyway? As it is, we only have one stage where it is completely exploitable"

whats the difference between mine and yours? nothing, and yet people think there is

So why only use 11 stages?

Why not every stage on except the pick X or lose stages (Hyrule), stage strike each round, and use DSR? If every round uses stage striking then I don't see why stages like Corneria, Venom, or Green Greens should be banned. Just pick characters before stage striking begins so there aren't any surprises.

11 because its an odd amount. I couldn't think 2 more stages that could be considered boarderline bannable.

that is every stage that is not pick x or lose.

every round wouldn't be FSLS. it's be

cp player 1/ cp player 2 / FSLS game 3

I'd really not like to get into this on this threaad becasue its not what this is about. if you want, you may PM me and I'd be happy to discuss it with you

 

[Masmasher@]

**** how many stages yall got left lmao
things got a little ******** when yall decided to ban corneria

Edit: i still think congo jungle should be legal

 

[JBM falcon08]

RC and Brinstar are both bad.

How about 6 stages on random and one reset for first random? loser cps from the 6 stages available.

Its not a bad system, if i remember event 52 in KC was supposed to run off something like this.

 

[Ripple]

RC and Brinstar are both bad.

WHY?WHY?WHY?WHY?WHY?WHY?WHY?WHY?WHY?WHY?WHY?WHY?WHY?WHY?WHY?WHY?WHY?WHY?

where is the logic? where is the support? you have nothing but biases. RC and brinstar have been proven for years to be anything but over centralizing.

man, I thought the brawl community was bad. you guys are just as bad.

conditioned to believe banning things that moves is ok. or it promotes aerial charcaters.


man the **** up, you're character has bad stages if you're anyone. you don't just get to ban them because " you felt like" or because "it moves". smash is a PLATFORM FIGHTER. learn how to play on the stages, pick up a secondary, or don't play

 

[-ACE-]

so what if "its just one stage"? that doesn't matter.

"Should stage adaptation be hindered so much anyway? As it is, we only have one stage where it is completely exploitable"

whats the difference between mine and yours? nothing, and yet people think there is

Well it depends on whether you'd rather hinder stage mechanics or character/matchup mechanics. One is more extreme than the other, and that is one area where our opinions differ. Also, you're worried about ONE stage that allows a widely-accepted tactic to be exploited? Ban it. It's that simple.

 

[Masmasher@]

so i guess we win at the stage select screen.
uploading videos should be easier cause each match should be like 5 seconds

 

[The Star King]

man, I thought the brawl community was bad. you guys are just as bad.

LOLOLOLOL that is a dangerous thing to say my friend.

But I agree with you criticizing people stating opinions without backing it up with logic. Those kinds of posts aren't going to be convincing anyone.

Disclaimer: I'm neutral about this debate as of now. I'm open to being convinced by either side.

 

[Ripple]

Well it depends on whether you'd rather hinder stage mechanics or character/matchup mechanics. One is more extreme than the other, and that is one area where our opinions differ. Also, you're worried about ONE stage that allows a widely-accepted tactic to be exploited? Ban it. It's that simple.

like I said, it doesn't matter what "you" want to do. you don't ban something unless its proven to be degenerate.


since when has stage adaptibilty been considered degenerate? never, and yet people ban any and all stages that move or have a hazard. why? there is no reason behind it.

so i guess we win at the stage select screen.
uploading videos should be easier cause each match should be like 5 seconds

if you care to explain what you're talking about I'd be more than happy to prove you wrong

 

[-ACE-]

so i guess we win at the stage select screen.
uploading videos should be easier cause each match should be like 5 seconds

Isn't that what happens when pink shinobi picks kj64 vs rockcrock?

 

[CloneHat]

How about you can only pick neutral characters, too.

 

[Ripple]

and the trolling begins....

I'm off to bed since i'm in spain and its like 5 am.

I'll lurk more if actual intelligent discussion is going on

 

[stingers]

wtf @ this topic...I don't understand how these things get support -sigh- I just can't see why people want to ban everything. ugh I'm too old school for this ****, can we have corneria and floats and japes back PLEASE

 

[-ACE-]

like I said, it doesn't matter what "you" want to do. you don't ban something unless its proven to be degenerate.


since when has stage adaptibilty been considered degenerate? never, and yet people ban any and all stages that move or have a hazard. why? there is no reason behind it.

I'm not saying that "what I say" goes. Maybe you missed that. Why would you prefer a hazard? Would you not want to beat your opponent without outside aid? ...or do you only care about whose character does the corny victory gesture at the end if the matchup?

 

[Masmasher@]

like I said, it doesn't matter what "you" want to do. you don't ban something unless its proven to be degenerate.


since when has stage adaptibilty been considered degenerate? never, and yet people ban any and all stages that move or have a hazard. why? there is no reason behind it.



if you care to explain what you're talking about I'd be more than happy to prove you wrong

'
im saying that it been pretty much a decade since this game came out and the fact that the community is trying to ban stages at this juncture without legitimate reasoning is going backwords.
i mean people suddenly have a impulse to ban these two stages when youve coped with them for years now, with little to no good points as to why.
counterpicking doesnt hurt that much. you dont win at the stage selection screen. you still have to play the match out

i agree with you

 

[stingers]

i think there is a difference in logic here...the OLD players started with everything legal. that's how the game was meant to be played. but you couldn't have literally everything legal if you want a competition, so they just decided that there would be a benchmark to decide if a stage was anti-competitive or not, and that benchmark was randomness. if a stage had any random factors, it should be banned. later on this would include counterpicks that were TOO strong (such as yoshis island for fox, waveshining certain characters off the sides).

most new players are so accustomed to what the old school players brought it down to though that their version of melee never included everything legal from the start, it STARTED as a version with few stages legal...so they decided to take their benchmark a step further and say that anything that isn't absolutely static is anti competitive...i guess.

I've just noticed that most players supporting a conservative stagelist/ruleset are generally newer players so I'm trying to rationalize why. i'm hardly OLD school but I've been around for...a decent amount of time and I think that all this banning **** is stupid...so if anyone else has any ideas on the matter i'd love to hear them