Ban brinstar and rainbow cruise

[Winston]

Battlefield only

FD sucks

At least have like Dreamland and Yoshi's on =(

 

[Cactuar]

Lol @ people arguing when their opinion doesn't matter to the real decision making body.

Edit: *is an elitist prick*

Edit2: I'm just trollin. Sortof.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well its possible that some TOs are reading this. Also possible i'm the only TO in this thread.

*leaves*

 

[Grim Tuesday]

its more or less the same thing.
i just dont see how poke floats is the same as temple. camping can be stopped. the terms you are using marginalizing skill are different. thats why i'm saying broken because theres a fundamental difference. the level of temple is non changing but you cannot do anything about it when fox scores a hit and runs. there is no double standard. flat out. there is a difference between camping and being able to be untouchable.

Ah, FINALLY you agree that the criteria that was used to ban Temple is the same criteria I was using to ban RC/R (albeit a more extreme case for Temple). The fact is though, even though it isn't to the level Temple is (higher damage against a faster character = game loss), I believe it still promotes camping to the point where the game actually loses depth because of the ease of playing on that stage for quite a few characters.

This might not be a problem on it's own, for example, Yoshi's Story probably has more depth than Battlefield overall.

However, no one actually SUPPORTS the stage. Unlike Battlefield, which would cause an up-roar if it was banned, the community are quite willing to be rid of RC/R apart from a select few.

also yoshis island was banned because of the walk off and guess who primarily you have to thank for that...fox

that stage is really good for him lmao should be a counter pick

Yoshi's Island wasn't banned because of Fox. It was banned because of the walk-off and irregular stage design, which leads to, you guessed it: Skill marginalization. Fox might be good on the stage because he can abuse it's layout well, but it wasn't banned because of him, it was banned because of the actual parts of the stage that could be abused.

items take control away from the players when they explode. probably being nitpicky with this last statement though

Yes, they do. Your point is...? I don't support items for Melee and never mentioned them at all in my post.

also degree of skill doesnt matter when talking about if somethings broken

I guess that Fox should be banned then because (assuming skill is not a factor) he can never be beaten.

 

[DippnDots]

all you have to do is swing a sword at fox and if you can touch him with your hands don't stop touching him till he screams UUUAAWWGHGHGHGHG

 

[Hax]

except winning with Fox on temple does take skill. Fox has to hit the opponent with a laser, and then continually run away. until you find a stage + character combination that grants the character the win the moment the match starts, skill is still required to win. so no, temple (nor any other stage) is an instant win; they are [extreme] marginalizations of skill.

now that we've established that stages are indeed banned because they marginalize skill, it becomes clear that RC/BS should be banned.

whoever brought up slippery slope does not even know what that means. and as for the horrible list of characters that do worse against puff/peach on Brinstar that was posted earlier: every character in the game has a significantly worse puff/peach matchup on brinstar, just as every character in the game has a significantly worse fox/falco matchup on rainbow cruise. that is the extent to which these stages skew gameplay. if that isn't a marginalization of skill, i don't know what is.

whoever tries to refute this last paragraph, please pay attention to the word 'significant'. i already know Ripple/macsmasher's counterarguments are going to involve Pokemon Stadium being good for Fox, Battlefield being good for Sheik, FD being good for Marth, etc. these stages do not significantly change the game so i'm just throwing that out there

 

[rhan]

Add Big Blue to the CP list gaiz...

 

[Strong Badam]

I like how Pink Shinobi's camping on KJ64 at Genesis is considered unfair, when RockCrock could have easily picked a different character. That's kind of the whole point of the counterpick system, but no one seems to understand that at all.

you obviously don't even comprehend my posts if you think I support what you said I did.

I'm not even going to bother anymore. time to bring out the big guns.

SUSA!

RAZIEK!

BUDGET PLAYER CADET!

HO!!!!!!!!!!

this isn't gay *** brawl ****, else we'd also have Overswarm in here. *shudder*

Look, RC doesn't test for the same set of skills that any other legal stage does. At this point its all a matter of opposing game theories, but I am part of the group that thinks the neutral stages are the best for competitive play. This group of people have existed since 2005 and probably before.

The only double standard is that you aren't arguing for Floats, Mute City, Onett, Green Greens, MK2, and Corneria to be legal. None of them have temple-esque strategies for them to be banned. They were banned for the same reason we want to ban RC and Brinstar.

Just about the strongest argument I've seen so far. At least you acknowledge a legitimate reason to ban the stages; testing a different skill set than we want to, rather than delving into "IT'S GAY" or "IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME AS TEMPLE GUYZ"

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

except winning with Fox on temple does take skill. Fox has to hit the opponent with a laser, and then continually run away. until you find a stage + character combination that grants the character the win the moment the match starts, skill is still required to win. so no, temple (nor any other stage) is an instant win; they are [extreme] marginalizations of skill.

now that we've established that stages are indeed banned because they marginalize skill, it becomes clear that RC/BS should be banned.

whoever brought up slippery slope does not even know what that means. and as for the horrible list of characters that do worse against puff/peach on Brinstar that was posted earlier: every character in the game has a significantly worse puff/peach matchup on brinstar, just as every character in the game has a significantly worse fox/falco matchup on rainbow cruise. that is the extent to which these stages skew gameplay. if that isn't a marginalization of skill, i don't know what is.

whoever tries to refute this last paragraph, please pay attention to the word 'significant'. i already know Ripple/macsmasher's counterarguments are going to involve Pokemon Stadium being good for Fox, Battlefield being good for Sheik, FD being good for Marth, etc. these stages do not significantly change the game so i'm just throwing that out there

inb4"define significant"

 

[Ripple]

now that we've established that stages are indeed banned because they marginalize skill, it becomes clear that RC/BS should be banned.

no...

whoever brought up slippery slope does not even know what that means. and as for the horrible list of characters that do worse against puff/peach on Brinstar that was posted earlier: every character in the game has a significantly worse puff/peach matchup on brinstar, just as every character in the game has a significantly worse fox/falco matchup on rainbow cruise. that is the extent to which these stages skew gameplay. if that isn't a marginalization of skill, i don't know what is.

it has everything to do with the slippery slope. how much is "significant"? according to most legal ban criteria. its " if 2/3 of the cast are rendered useless when otherwise viable". according to you its just "enough to warrent a ban" <----subjective

whoever tries to refute this last paragraph, please pay attention to the word 'significant'. i already know Ripple/macsmasher's counterarguments are going to involve Pokemon Stadium being good for Fox, Battlefield being good for Sheik, FD being good for Marth, etc. these stages do not significantly change the game so i'm just throwing that out there

I won't use marth on FD.

I'll use ICs.

ICs are so good on FD that they arguably marginalize skill. the only way you can possibly beat ICs on FD is to pick puff or peach.

go ahead and see if wobbles or Fly aminita agree with this.

 

[Wobbles]

Actually, FD marginalizes skill because it removes platforms and the ability to test your skill at interacting with them.

 

[-ACE-]

Actually, FD marginalizes skill because it removes platforms and the ability to test your skill at interacting with them.

True, you do have to play a different game on FD (than say, BF), but imo the difference between these 2 games is much less severe than the difference between the 2 games you play on BF vs RC or brinstar, and even KJ64.

 

[Ripple]

Actually, RC marginalizes skill because it ADDS movement and the ability to test your skill at interacting with the stage.

this is basically what I'm getting from hax and the other pro ban people

True, you do have to play a different game on FD (than say, BF), but imo the difference between these 2 games is much less severe than the difference between the 2 games you play on BF vs RC or brinstar, and even KJ64.

I'm gonna have to start shooting people (or myself) if people keep saying " I think its TOO MUCH more different"

 

[PB&J]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s_BoZbDuYA

OK PLEASE WATCH THIS MATCH..DONT ASK WHY WE DIDNT BAN BRINSTAR AGAINST DARC, BUT IT CLEARLY SHOWS THAT BRINSTAR MADE A HUUUUUUUUUUUGE DIFFERENCE ON US WINNING THE SET(not saying we would of won, but i think it would of been much closer than that horrible 3rd game)

please get these stages banned..im with european rule sets and a few ideas what zhu has

 

[Ripple]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s_BoZbDuYA

OK PLEASE WATCH THIS MATCH..DONT ASK WHY WE DIDNT BAN BRINSTAR AGAINST DARC, BUT IT CLEARLY SHOWS THAT BRINSTAR MADE A HUUUUUUUUUUUGE DIFFERENCE ON US WINNING THE SET(not saying we would of won, but i think it would of been much closer than that horrible 3rd game)

please get these stages banned..im with european rule sets and a few ideas what zhu has

I actually watched that vid. too bad you both didn't focus your efforts on m2k and then make darc come up trough the stage. you just let him hit you so many times via sharking (brawl term only probably. its just constantly up airing through the stage). you played poorly, end of story. they had a great strategy and you got *****

 

[-ACE-]

I'm gonna have to start shooting people (or myself) if people keep saying " I think its TOO MUCH more different"

Did I say "too" different? No. I was merely pointing out that imo fd is closer to neutral than brinstar, RC, and KJ64. Chill out.

 

[Ripple]

Chill out.

chill you say? hahaha


you just need to chill

 

[Uffe]

I lol'd at Ripple's post. Anyway, banning a stage just because a few characters do good there doesn't sound like a valid reason. Banning it because it can split apart or the acid rises also doesn't sound like a valid reason. Learn the match-up or use the same character to deal with stages that you don't like. Learn the characters, learn the stages, or have ditto matches.

 

[Stev]

The problem with RC is that it forces characters to play aerial when they have bad aerial games. True, having a bad aerial game is a pitfall to the character. But it should be the opponent that forces you to play aerial, not the stage. You're essentially eliminating a character's viability in doing so and that is NOT done by the player

 

[Pi]

The problem with RC is that it forces characters to play aerial when they have bad aerial games. True, having a bad aerial game is a pitfall to the character. But it should be the opponent that forces you to play aerial, not the stage. You're essentially eliminating a character's viability in doing so and that is NOT done by the player

whoever has the lead dictates how the one who doesn't have the lead plays

if you want to play ground, get the lead, then play ground

 

[KirbyKaze]

ban rainbowstardepths greenneriaisland64

 

[JBM falcon08]

TBH most tourneys ive been to have different rules everytime. Stage striking/random/mute city allowed/ stupid ****.

If you prefer a certain rulesets, esp if your running the tourney, then its up to you to decide rulesets.

I wish everyone could see through all the debate and agree on one ruleset, but its just not going to happen.

When i hold my regional next year i plan on using the Euro ruleset, or something like it.

 

[-ACE-]

whoever has the lead dictates how the one who doesn't have the lead plays

if you want to play ground, get the lead, then play ground

It doesn't look like you understood what he was saying. RC forces you to jump and is the only legal stage that does so.

 

[Strong Badam]

anyone bringing up the wonderful, infallible "slippery slope" argument need to shoot themselves. it's seriously not applicable here, at all.

 

[Ripple]

anyone bringing up the wonderful, infallible "slippery slope" argument need to shoot themselves. it's seriously not applicable here, at all.

HOW IS NOT APLICABLE WHEN PEOPLE ARE SAYING "TOO MUCH"

oops on caps.


and how the ef did I receive a warning for my last post? that was pure gold

 

[-ACE-]

HOW IS NOT APLICABLE

LOL

and how the ef did I receive a warning for my last post?

You should have chilled out.

 

[Ripple]

LOL



You should have chilled out.

it was a serious question despite the caps

 

[Teczer0]

Oh, I figured you'd PM me or something if it was serious lol.

Mainly cuz its just off-topic. Its hilarious and awesome I admit but yea...

 

[Hax]

Actually, FD marginalizes skill because it removes platforms and the ability to test your skill at interacting with them.

true, but it also introduces a new stage shape that does not skew many matchups while testing another important set of abilities: ground game.

it has everything to do with the slippery slope. how much is "significant"? according to most legal ban criteria. its " if 2/3 of the cast are rendered useless when otherwise viable". according to you its just "enough to warrent a ban" <----subjective

if 2/3 of the cast being rendered useless is necessary to warrant a ban, then nearly every stage in the game should be legal. this is smash, not the US judicial system (which is where you got the 2/3's from)

ICs are so good on FD that they arguably marginalize skill. the only way you can possibly beat ICs on FD is to pick puff or peach.

lol not only do IC's suck, but that is so false. I agree, IC's on FD is probably skews matchups the most out of any character+neutral stage combination, but the legality of this combination has had hardly any impact on tourney results. IC's see ~10-15% increases in matchups on FD, whereas peach/puff improve by 30-40% on brinstar/same for spacies on rainbow cruise.

ironic that you bring up ice climbers, who virtually automatically lose when they're counterpicked brinstar. see mango vs chu game 3

 

[Luneth]

The problem with RC is that it forces characters to play aerial when they have bad aerial games. True, having a bad aerial game is a pitfall to the character. But it should be the opponent that forces you to play aerial, not the stage. You're essentially eliminating a character's viability in doing so and that is NOT done by the player

doesnt FD have the same problem as RC just forcing characters to use their ground game instead of their air game?
You can argue that RC is not as bad since there are several parts of the stage that allow you to use characters ground game (the ship, the part after the pendulum) While FD doesnt change at all

 

[Ripple]

true, but it also introduces a new stage shape that does not skew many matchups while testing another important set of abilities: ground game.

you make it seem as though aerial game is not an important skill, which in reality, it is just as important as ground game

if 2/3 of the cast being rendered useless is necessary to warrant a ban, then nearly every stage in the game should be legal. this is smash, not the US judicial system (which is where you got the 2/3's from)

LOL, you wish hax. don't insult my intelligence by saying I would say that every stage in the game would be legal. there can be more than 1 banning criteria.

lol not only do IC's suck, but that is so false. I agree, IC's on FD is probably skews matchups the most out of any character+neutral stage combination, but the legality of this combination has had hardly any impact on tourney results. IC's see ~10-15% increases in matchups on FD, whereas peach/puff improve by 30-40% on brinstar/same for spacies on rainbow cruise.

so (again) how much is too much? what if a character was 20% better? 25%? where do you draw the line? anything you say that isn't based on evidence is subjective and biased. hell, I could argue that the 10-15% that Ics get is too much

ironic that you bring up ice climbers, who virtually automatically lose when they're counterpicked brinstar. see mango vs chu game 3

so? Ics are limited. any stage that isn't flat, they lose on. that's their flaw. jiggs' flaw is that any stage that is flat she has a harder time with.

IDK what the point of your last paragraph was

 

[Masmasher@]

except winning with Fox on temple does take skill. Fox has to hit the opponent with a laser, and then continually run away. until you find a stage + character combination that grants the character the win the moment the match starts, skill is still required to win. so no, temple (nor any other stage) is an instant win; they are [extreme] marginalizations of skill.

now that we've established that stages are indeed banned because they marginalize skill, it becomes clear that RC/BS should be banned.

whoever brought up slippery slope does not even know what that means. and as for the horrible list of characters that do worse against puff/peach on Brinstar that was posted earlier: every character in the game has a significantly worse puff/peach matchup on brinstar, just as every character in the game has a significantly worse fox/falco matchup on rainbow cruise. that is the extent to which these stages skew gameplay. if that isn't a marginalization of skill, i don't know what is.

whoever tries to refute this last paragraph, please pay attention to the word 'significant'. i already know Ripple/macsmasher's counterarguments are going to involve Pokemon Stadium being good for Fox, Battlefield being good for Sheik, FD being good for Marth, etc. these stages do not significantly change the game so i'm just throwing that out there

nah. from the beginning fox can force a jump, hitting you with a laser from the layout of when they start the match. no amount of frame perfect dodging is going to stop that. from there any person whose head isn't up his *** (even me) can proceed to run away and become untouchable. at best the match could become a stalemate with neither opponent approaching each other.

i mean you are using your own personal rhetoric/measuring stick right there in that post. you say that temple is a marginalization of skill then compare it to saying its the same amount as RC and BS. i mean you basically said both are extreme marginalization of skill and that they should be banned. no explanation as to how they are the same amount. even though as a community you've been dealing with rainbow cruise and brinstar for years and temple was banned pretty close to the beginning of this communitys conception. these stages didnt magically get worse.

you cant speak in a absolute then make us pay attention to how significant something is.

also the slippery slope case applies perfectly here because of the fact that you want to ban stages because they dont show the same quantifiable amount of skills and then favor some characters. that mean you banning a stage because some characters are "too good" or better. how much is too much though. eventually if this keeps going on then the system will devolve into the ultimate equality. fox, no items, final destination. think about it, even when you have a "equal" or "fair" stage, some characters will be better then others. what to stop you from minimizing that.

thats why its dangerous to use the terms marginalization because of the fact that everyones measuring stick is slightly different. thats why something cant be half broken. it ether is or its not.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Actually, most character's air games are fine on FD. Fullhopping fairs with marth is not viable on any other stage because platforms get in the way. Fox and Falco can use their fullhops fine as well. Peach's float is perfectly viable. There is simply no platform "circle" to escape on if you are losing stage control.

RC and Brinstar actually force the player to jump, regardless of character, or take punishment from the stage (death or damage->free attack from opponent).

 

[Ripple]

well then we need to discuss whether or not forcing a player to jump is ban worthy

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I would say it takes away from the competitive skillset by reducing viable player and character strategies.

They are banned from my tournaments from now on, and since ur not a TO (or even a real melee player) i dont really mind ur opinion.

 

[Ripple]

I would say it takes away from the competitive skillset by reducing viable player and character strategies.

They are banned from my tournaments from now on, and since ur not a TO (or even a real melee player) i dont really mind ur opinion.

why though? I'm just curious as to why you think so

and it doesn't matter if I play the game or not. saying my opinion doesn't matter if I don't play the game is a form of appealing to authority/ ad hominem.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

actually its not the same as appealing to authority and while potentially an ad hominem it also degrades your credibility, which i think matters. Mostly i just meant it ad hominem tho.

If someone is forced by the stage to do a strategy or forced to make a choice (jump or die), then the strategy of not jumping has been limited and excluded. Don't get me wrong, RC has won me countless tournament sets as well as allowed me to take games of kels/tink before I could think about competing with them on neutrals, but I don't think its a good stage for fair competitive play.

 

[Ripple]

actually its not the same as appealing to authority and while potentially an ad hominem it also degrades your credibility, which i think matters. Mostly i just meant it ad hominem tho.

If someone is forced by the stage to do a strategy or forced to make a choice (jump or die), then the strategy of not jumping has been limited and excluded. Don't get me wrong, RC has won me countless tournament sets as well as allowed me to take games of kels/tink before I could think about competing with them on neutrals, but I don't think its a good stage for fair competitive play.

ad hominem does not degrade my crdibility. that's a fallacy. to idiots it might. to actual intelligent people, it doesn't.

( more of poisening the well anyway)

and I was thinking of the authority as melee players in general. those who play the game (well), make the rules. <--- appeal to authority.

and btw I DO play this game quite regularly and am pretty good. I do not get to go to tournaments often enough though.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

a true ad hominem would be more like "you're stupid so i'm not taking your opinon". My statement was more like "you don't play the game so your opinion is invalid/holds less weight". I think that statement has truth.

And yes, you might play for fun, but friendlies and fun play is completely different from tournament play. I love RC, its literally my favorite stage to play on in the entire game. I'm not exactly a camper, but I am semi defensive and cautious in my play. I also know the stage layout better than most people in the jankwest because of all the time I've spent on it, which usually allows me to win there regardless of who I am playing against (took a game off dart with the stage at the same tournament he beat kels). The more layers of depth I see to the game, the more I feel that neutral stages are the best for competition while these "jank" stages are very interesting in non-competitive & fun ways.

 

[Ripple]

a true ad hominem would be more like "you're stupid so i'm not taking your opinon". My statement was more like "you don't play the game so your opinion is invalid/holds less weight". I think that statement has truth.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html

no, it doesn't