Ban brinstar and rainbow cruise

[Pi]

it doesn't have anything to do with having an unstoppable strategy,

in both brinstar and rainbow cruise the stage will literally kill you if you stand in one place long enough.


there is a reason the world tournament of martial arts is fought on a flat uninteresting stage, or why two opponents in dragonball z would travel to an open area to fight, and not into a ****ing meteor storm or some dumb ****.



there is no reason why this should be a complicated argument, the stages used in tournaments should only serve as a medium of open maneuverability ,
if you think final D is biased towards certain characters its because those characters are inherently better than other characters not because of the stages influence.

and chain grabbing isn't the stages influence, the absence of chain grabbing is a stages influence.

so your stance is that to balance the game, we must accept the imbalance of certain characters on 'neutral' stages
because when you look at a stage, as a stage for martial arts tournaments, or street fighter tournaments, or dragon ball Z tournaments, these 'neutral' stages look like them
therefore it must be balanced, as it applies to SSBM
because SSBM is comparable to SF, DBZ, and Martial Arts tournaments.

your logic is ********

we're playing SSBM, not participating in a wrestling/judo/world tournament match

@foxlazyprick w/e the **** this guy was trying to say

fox has an overwhelming advantage against EVERY OTHER PERSON ON THE CAST ON THIS STAGE

shut the **** up

the fact of the matter is that these stages do not break the game
they do not give overwhelming advantages to 1 member of the cast vs. the rest of the cast
and they do not contain unpredictable elements that you can do nothing to stop from getting hit/inconvenienced by.

if ya'll want 1v1, fox only, no items, final D go play some other fighter

 

[Teczer0]

Everyone chill with the flaming. Its not cool.

 

[Masmasher@]

Find me objective criteria for banning a stage and I will <3 you forever. I mean, one kid might be happy with his "broken" action figure and not consider it broken at all, but actually deeper (he can pretend the action figure lost his arm in a battle when he is playing, etc...).

And who is to say that you only ban something when it is broken? Isn't that criteria subjective as well?

Ten years of playing doesn't mean it is fine. How long was slavery around for? How long was it until women got the right to vote? For a Melee example: How long did it take people to realise they could SDI? How long was it until Wobbling was discovered? How about the Master Hand Glitch?

No, it didn't magically get worse. It's always been bad, the players just got better.

Since this is all subjective, like I said, it comes down to the TO's DECISION. If more people agree with me than disagree (which is what this thread seems to show: Hax, Armada, M2K and hungrybox all agree), then it will become the standard. Simple as that.

personally i hate RC and brinstar isnt really my cup of tea ether for one on one but this is different.
i dont think comparing slavery to this is really the best route.
i mean you said it yourself the players got better but its still doable

slavery wasnt likable but this is not about whats good or bad but whats managable
temple isnt managable. these stages are
also temple auto win is based on placement. fox cant counter it
the simple primary reason is that people are tired of dealing with RC and BS
theres not much competitive reasoning in this decision.
its to increase ease of tournaments and "fun" which i can understand somewhat...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

personally i hate RC and brinstar isnt really my cup of tea ether for one on one but this is different.
i dont think comparing slavery to this is really the best route.
i mean you said it yourself the players got better but its still doable

slavery wasnt likable but this is not about whats good or bad but whats managable
temple isnt managable
also temple auto win is based on placement. fox cant counter it
the simple primary reason is that people are tired of dealing with RC and BS
theres not much competitive reasoning in this decision.
its to increase ease of tournaments and "fun" which i can understand somewhat...

Slavery was likeable for the people making money off it.

Temple SUBJECTIVELY isn't manageable.

Fox can use Reflector at the start of a match.

Why should players have to deal with the stages? Why make them play on stages which boil gameplay down to "You have to run-away for half the stage or your opponent gets a reasonable advantage. No exceptions"

 

[Pi]

Slavery was likeable for the people making money off it.

Temple SUBJECTIVELY isn't manageable.

Fox can use Reflector at the start of a match.

Why should players have to deal with the stages? Why make them play on stages which boil gameplay down to "You have to run-away for half the stage or your opponent gets a reasonable advantage. No exceptions"

All stages can potentially give your opponent a 'reasonable advantage'
whatever the **** that is
certain characters, on any stage, can exploit the stages mechanics to give themselves an advantage.

fox chaingrab on falco/fox on FD
waveshine on link/peach/etc. on FD
samus/jiggs on dreamland
marth on marthstory
shiek vs. half the cast chain grabs on FD etc.


stages affect matchups, this is not ****ing news
the difference between our 'neutrals' and brinstar/RC is that the majority of people who play this game only play friendlies, their main source of practice, on neutrals.

try and tell me you have just as much practice on brinstar/RC as you do on FD/BF

 

[Masmasher@]

Slavery was likeable for the people making money off it.

Temple SUBJECTIVELY isn't manageable.

Fox can use Reflector at the start of a match.

Why should players have to deal with the stages? Why make them play on stages which boil gameplay down to "You have to run-away for half the stage or your opponent gets a reasonable advantage. No exceptions"

just stop using slavery as a example please...
i even said its not about whats likable its about whats managable.

i even said in one of my posts that the best you can hope for is a stalemate on temple if neither one approaches/stands still (2 pages ago)

also thats what competition is. you deal with it unless its broken/outside the circumstances of the regulations of said competition
you think i liked play a baseball game in the rain or running a track meet in the snow.
NO
you deal with it

I will say it again. this reason has little to no competitive component or reasoning. if this happens it would be because you guys are tired of dealing with it. which basically means "we are doing it because we want to."

 

[Grim Tuesday]

All stages can potentially give your opponent a 'reasonable advantage'
whatever the **** that is
certain characters, on any stage, can exploit the stages mechanics to give themselves an advantage.

fox chaingrab on falco/fox on FD
waveshine on link/peach/etc. on FD
samus/jiggs on dreamland
marth on marthstory
shiek vs. half the cast chain grabs on FD etc.


this is not ****ing news, stages affect matchups
the difference between our 'neutrals' and brinstar/RC is that the majority of people who play this game only play friendlies, their main source of practice, on neutrals.

That was supposed to say "un-reasonable advantage".

A lot of those apply to other stages as well (wave-shining Peach on Pokemon Stadium, for example).

Stages have to give a character an advantage, it's a given. But sometimes characters can get too much of an advantage where they don't even have to have different strategies to win, just like how Fox can just run away and laser for most of Rainbow Cruise, and Puff can air camp for most of Brinstar.

also thats what competition is. you deal with it unless its broken/outside the circumstances of the regulations of said competition
you think i liked play a baseball game in the rain or running a track meet in the snow.
NO
you deal with it

I will say it again. this reason has little to no competitive component or reasoning. if this happens it would be because you guys are tired of dealing with it. which basically means "we are doing it because we want to."

Why should we deal with it if we have the ability to prevent it? Do you think that rain would be banned in baseball if it could be?

How about this for competitive reasoning: Because it is broken. BS gives Puff an incredibly large advantage she doesn't even have to work for. It completely takes out the strategy of counter-picking as BS is pretty much always Puff's best choice of stage. It also removes depth from the game as Puff's meta-game becomes "pick BS when possible: air camp" which is MUCH less deep than it is without BS. It decreases character viability as there are several characters who CANNOT deal with this strategy in the slightest. It also decreases the amount of stages that would see play because Puff only ever needs BS.

Satisfied?

 

[Pi]

you're over-exaggerating the advantages that these characters gain from those stages.
puff can plank on any stage, hell she can plank harder on stages that don't have edges that get covered up by lava
and the only characters that really get ****ed up by lava is fast fallers

as far as RC goes i think it's more imba than brinstar
but the boat does force neutral stageish interaction between the two opponents
and fox can't always be hitting you with lasers given the nature of the moving platforms
i'd say fox has an easier time of camping on dreamland than on RC

stage advantage, character advantage, when you bring it down to what is really happening at high level play they don't factor in that heavily.

i've seen falcon win vs. peach on mute
i've seen puff win vs. fox on yoshi's
i've seen ganon win vs. falco on FD

 

[Masmasher@]

That was supposed to say "un-reasonable advantage".

A lot of those apply to other stages as well (wave-shining Peach on Pokemon Stadium, for example).

Stages have to give a character an advantage, it's a given. But sometimes characters can get too much of an advantage where they don't even have to have different strategies to win, just like how Fox can just run away and laser for most of Rainbow Cruise, and Puff can air camp for most of Brinstar.




Why should we deal with it if we have the ability to prevent it? Do you think that rain would be banned in baseball if it could be?

How about this for competitive reasoning: Because it is broken. BS gives Puff an incredibly large advantage she doesn't even have to work for. It completely takes out the strategy of counter-picking as BS is pretty much always Puff's best choice of stage. It also removes depth from the game as Puff's meta-game becomes "pick BS when possible: air camp" which is MUCH less deep than it is without BS. It decreases character viability as there are several characters who CANNOT deal with this strategy in the slightest. It also decreases the amount of stages that would see play because Puff only ever needs BS.

Satisfied?

if it was broken then the community would've banned it by now. Its been proven you can win on there
it doesnt take out counterpicking because you could choose a different character.
you act like things should be removed instead of dealing with it. removal degrades competiton keeping the game intact is furthering competition. not regulating strategies based on stages

Its okay to admit the underlying truth. you guys want more fun/ease of play so you want it gone. this has little to do with competitive reasoning.

 

[Pi]

i think it's more that it's easier to just ban a stage than to have to go practice on it
especially when they've already determined that they don't like the nature of the stage
it's unfortunate that everyone got into the habit of only playing friendlies on neutrals

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Can someone please tell me what we get out of having RR/RC legal? Like, depth-wise, what does it actually add to the game?

 

[Pi]

Can someone please tell me what we get out of having RR/RC legal? Like, depth-wise, what does it actually add to the game?

.........depth?
like how are you defining depth that you don't see that having a whole other stage adds to it

 

[Grim Tuesday]

.........depth?
like how are you defining depth that you don't see that having a whole other stage adds to it

Are you saying then that the game has more depth with Temple legal?

 

[Masmasher@]

*facepalms himself*
circular argument with a break

 

[Pi]

Are you saying then that the game has more depth with Temple legal?

Essentially yes.
It's not like anyone is not going to strike/ban hyrule vs. fox any way.
And not every matchup is fox vs. _____
There are probably legit strategies on hyrule between two other characters that won't get explored because fox/falco exist, not that I'm complaining, the advantage given to fox is clear and uncompromisable.

The difference between fox on hyrule, and jiggs on brinstar, and fox on RC is that the advantage is significantly less, and varies greatly on the matchup

 

[Grim Tuesday]

*facepalms himself*

What are you even still doing here? You have no idea what you are talking about and have proven it time and time again.

Essentially yes.
It's not like anyone is not going to strike/ban hyrule vs. fox any way.
And not every matchup is fox vs. _____
There are probably legit strategies on hyrule between two other characters that won't get explored because fox/falco exist, not that I'm complaining, the advantage given to fox is clear and uncompromisable.

The difference between fox on hyrule, and jiggs on brinstar, and fox on RC is that the advantage is significantly less, and varies greatly on the matchup

So you are saying that we should not ban stages on if they remove depth, but if a character is too good on them?

 

[Masmasher@]

What are you even still doing here? You have no idea what you are talking about and have proven it time and time again.

yet you have argued with me for many pages and have had some of your arguments degraded

i guess its a fool arguing with a fool sort of thing.

honestly insults should be beyond you at this stage but we can always turn back i guess...
besides the real reason is appearent

 

[Pi]

Banning a stage innately removes depth from the game.

But banning a stage that would provide easy, nigh guaranteed wins, to character X seems like a worthwhile sacrifice of depth brought to the game via peach vs. samus battles on hyrule.

If you really feel like any competent player can pick jiggs and go to brinstar and plank the edge and guarantee a win vs. any/most other character(s).
or pick fox and camp on RC and guarantee a win vs. any/most other character(s).

then we are going to have different stances on the issue regardless of the keys we strike on the keyboard.

 

[jugfingers]

so your stance is that to balance the game, we must accept the imbalance of certain characters on 'neutral' stages

no my stance is not to balance the game



some characters are better than others.

if ya'll want 1v1, fox only, no items, final D go play some other fighter

lol..... there are other fighters where you can play fox only on FD without items???

hook me up

 

[Pi]

29 playable stages
random stage switch
stage striking
stage bans
counterpicking stages/characters
many other variations of choices

**** all that, let's only play on BF/FD cause in your eyes it looks like a good fighting stage.

 

[jugfingers]

29 playable stages
random stage switch
stage striking
stage bans
counterpicking stages/characters
many other variations of choices

**** all that, let's only play on BF/FD cause in your eyes it looks like a good fighting stage.

I always ban BF lol.



trust me theres lots to do on FD in this game, if your into fun stages maybe you should just play adventure mode, or pick up brawl.

 

[Nygma]

LOL at HAX complaining because Falcon sucks at both of those stages.

All of the stages in smash in retrospect are stupid because certain characters perform very well on others than other characters. Does this present depth to a game? Sure. But is it more so stupid/funny than it is interesting? Yup.

Hence, why Smash is funny and is purely a party game. (Turns items on)

 

[Pengie]

LOL FD's extremely gay; the lack of platforms kills the game for me sometimes. The only reason that no one complains about FD is because it doesn't **** up people's combos/makes them try new **** so they get complacent on it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Eh, screw this. I can tell that I'm never going to get you guys to agree with me.

Why can't we all just play on Fountain of Dreams and Battlefield? -_-

 

[Pi]

I always ban BF lol.



trust me theres lots to do on FD in this game, if your into fun stages maybe you should just play adventure mode, or pick up brawl.

FD is your baseline neutral stage choice?

I'm done w/ you.

 

[Pengie]

LOL at the thought of people ever agreeing to play in FoD. That's probably the most hated stage out of all of the neutrals.

 

[Ghostbone]

Eh, screw this. I can tell that I'm never going to get you guys to agree with me.

Why can't we all just play on Fountain of Dreams and Battlefield? -_-

Because I <3 Brinstar and you know it
RC is gay though.....

 

[Grim Tuesday]

LOL at the thought of people ever agreeing to play in FoD. That's probably the most hated stage out of all of the neutrals.

It is also the most neutral stage out of all the neutrals.

 

[Pengie]

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but try convincing anyone else of that and they'll try and lynch you (especially the Captain Falcon mains, they might just take turns sodomizing you before they kill you).

 

[PB&J]

i really think it would better the community if we ban gay stages..players will have to actually learn how to fight characters, rather than rely on the stage to do half/more than half of the job for them

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but try convincing anyone else of that and they'll try and lynch you (especially the Captain Falcon mains, they might just take turns sodomizing you before they kill you).

Well, it's the most balanced stage overall, not necessarily the only stage that is balanced though.

Really, the only stages we need (assuming we were focusing on characters, rather than stages, like PB&J is suggesting) are FoD and BF.

 

[Pi]

I think anyone who expects the game to develop further by narrowing stage choices is delusional about end game melee.

If you want to see camping, planking, gay playstyles become more and more prevalent then by all means let's all play on 1 stage all the time forever.

 

[john!]

those of you who are trying to draw a clear distinction between the brokenness of brinstar/rc and the brokenness of peach's castle and other banned stages... there really isn't a clear distinction at all. the discussion boils ENTIRELY down to whether you feel that, in order to more accurately determine the more skilled player, the game should either have more variety in stage choice, or less centralization of the metagame using effective strats on brinstar/rc. as sveet noted earlier, it's about what skillset we want to test to determine who is "better" at this game. it's all personal opinion.

my personal opinion is that, since we haven't seen a significant detrimental effect on tourney play with brinstar/rc legal, they should be legal in order to keep the game fresh and "exciting". most of us would probably quit after a few months if battlefield was the only legal stage. whether it tests the correct skillset is largely irrelevant, since the better player will still tend to win the vast majority of the time on those stages, and since we have the ban system to force players to not fully rely on a single strategy on a single stage.

 

[Winston]

^ that last bit seems off to me - let's be real, 95%+ of the community never touches brinstar or RC in friendlies. Those that do are usually looking to practice on the stages to get a competitive advantage, not because they are fun stages.

I do agree with your point that it comes down to what skillset you are looking to test, though.

I'm not sure why utilitarian thinking is seen as so obviously wrong by a lot of people with regards to competitive gaming. Strict adherence to Sirlin-esque "don't ban unless it's completely broken" philosophy is a heuristic. It's just a means to an end, the goal being interesting and balanced gameplay. It's not the goal itself.

 

[Wobbles]

Actually, Falcon is bad on FoD and certain players ban THAT against me over FD.

Weird.

Grim: yes, we ban a stage if the character is "too good" on it, with "too good" having the definition of "has a strategy that is literally unstoppable, barring singular exceptions."

What does "barring singular exceptions" mean? Well, if a CHARACTER was unbeatable by the rest of the cast, EXCEPT for one OTHER character--not counting the original best character--then we would ban that character.

For Hyrule, because Fox is unbeatable there except by himself, and he pretty much wins the very second that he gets a lead on his opponent, that's pretty **** unstoppable. There's no point playing the game after Fox gets a percent lead on you. And if the answer is "play Fox lol," then it's pretty clear that it's too broken.

Are the camping, planking, sharking, nouning verbing strats on RC and Brinstar unstoppable?

Here's my problem. We don't have anybody who will actually push these limits in tournament.

You know why my friend and I started using the IC infinite years ago? Because we thought it was ridiculous as hell, and that it was broken, and that we should PROVE it to be broken by ****** everybody with ICs, and maybe make some cash in the meantime. I remember straight out of Sirlin's Play to Win, "if you think something is so broken that it needs to be banned, prove it." So that's what we tried to do.

Guess how many major tournaments I've won? Guess how many other ICs have won, legal or not? It's in the single digits. We could not demonstrate that it was broken. All we've demonstrated is that it helps you beat *some* players, it can clinch a match here and there, but if somebody was going to **** you anyhow, they **** you anyhow. Of course, the community, with substantial proof that it was NOT broken, delivered by people aiming specifically to demonstrate that it WAS, still has it banned at the majority of tournaments, so you know what? /thread.

I'm done trying to convince people of anything on these boards. They don't want evidence. They don't want to prove a **** thing. They just want authority figures to parrot back what they're convinced they already know, and rather than man up and say, "fine, I'll prove it," they go back to playing Fox v Falco on Yoshi's Story for the fourteenth time in one night.

Your friend ***** you on Brinstar with Puff? Good for him. I hope he shows up at a national and three stocks M2K with that strat and gets Brinstar banned for good. Then I hope someone else times out everybody but other Fox players in his pool and bracket on RC with Fox. Or I hope they try to, and the better players **** on them, and the community still eventually bans those levels and finally admit it's because they just don't like them. Whatever.

**** it. I'll do it. I'm going to cheese every last person on Brinstar using Puff at the next tourney I go to. If I make it to Pound 5, expect every counterpick of mine to be a ******* 8 minute campfest on Brinstar. Bring the marshmallows and chocolate, I got the graham crackers.

Peace.

 

[Druggedfox]

How serious are you about that last part? I'd love to watch, and I'm being serious

 

[Ghostbone]

If that last part is serious, good on you, more people should have your attitude of proving things broken before banning them.

 

[Bones0]

I don't see how people can even compare Brinstar and RC to the neutrals. If you really want a simple reason to ban the stage, how about the fact that stage can kill players. I have never been playing FD and died because Metal Mario popped out of the floor and punched me off the side. I have, however, died on Brinstar because while I was busy trying to play the game the lava literally attacked me by covering my position. I have also died on RC because if you stand still, you will get pushed off the top/bottom. So yeah, for all the people saying "well how do you know when a stage has become too unbalanced?" that's how. When players can rely on THE STAGE to kill their opponent rather than their own skills, the map is too unbalanced for competitive play. Like someone said earlier, stages should be mediums through which players display their skills. It shouldn't be the other way around, where two players are of equal skill and the winner is determined by who can pick the most powerful stage.

On top of all of that, whether or not these stages are legal or not doesn't even mean they would be played on in an ideal stage rule. All of the games should be on the 3 most fair stages, not one fair stage and 2 extreme ones. Even if you had Brinstar and RC legal in the stage list, no one would still play them. Players would just have to waste their ban on them because there are too many stage hazard related deaths for it to be a reliable medium through which to display their skills.

 

[Ghostbone]

I don't see how people can even compare Brinstar and RC to the neutrals. If you really want a simple reason to ban the stage, how about the fact that stage can kill players. I have never been playing FD and died because Metal Mario popped out of the floor and punched me off the side. I have, however, died on Brinstar because while I was busy trying to play the game the lava literally attacked me by covering my position. I have also died on RC because if you stand still, you will get pushed off the top/bottom. So yeah, for all the people saying "well how do you know when a stage has become too unbalanced?" that's how. When players can rely on THE STAGE to kill their opponent rather than their own skills, the map is too unbalanced for competitive play. Like someone said earlier, stages should be mediums through which players display their skills. It shouldn't be the other way around, where two players are of equal skill and the winner is determined by who can pick the most powerful stage.

On top of all of that, whether or not these stages are legal or not doesn't even mean they would be played on in an ideal stage rule. All of the games should be on the 3 most fair stages, not one fair stage and 2 extreme ones. Even if you had Brinstar and RC legal in the stage list, no one would still play them. Players would just have to waste their ban on them because there are too many stage hazard related deaths for it to be a reliable medium through which to display their skills.

Stage Spiking, oh look i relied on the stage to kill my opponent.

That is all.

lol but seriously, players can use EVERY STAGE to their advantage, just because one moves or has a hazard doesn't make them unfit for competition.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Listen, there really is no point in arguing. Nobody is going to change their mind. TOs will pick which ideal they think is better and the players will voice their opinion with attendance.

I dont think its a coincidence that the pound ruleset was introduced and that tournament happened to get the most entrants of all time.