Ban brinstar and rainbow cruise

[StretchNutz]

I thinkk brinstar depths is more legit than brinstar. f***ing lava and the spilting is dumb. I don't know when it comes to Rainbow ride and brinstar I feel that some charcters are just totally f***ed no matter what they do.

I used to think you were cool but now I'm really not sure. I play Luigi and Brinstar Depths is no doubt the worst stage. I'm physically revolted to think that there is a person who actually likes it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

you obviously don't even comprehend my posts if you think I support what you said I did.

I'm not even going to bother anymore. time to bring out the big guns.

SUSA!

RAZIEK!

BUDGET PLAYER CADET!

HO!!!!!!!!!!

Good job ignoring my post which showed the exact reasoning behind why they should be removed.

 

[Masmasher@]

how is someone miles beyond you if they cant beat you on a certain stage.

none of you can define skill without a confirmation bias in terms of stages. you strike the stages and from there you have neutral and a counterpick for both ends

i cant believe one would say it takes away from the game you guys take away from the game by depleting the amount of stages to show this "skill" your talking about.

you guys are trying to warp this into a standard fighter whether you think it or not

also comparing banning items to stage banning is silly. if you dont know the difference between the two then its obvious you dont know your history

to cater is to degrade competitiveness. you go in and work with what you have.
fun is subjective and using it for a measuring stick/rhetoric degrades competitveness.

ten years people all in all theres another word for trying this but im trying not to lower the level of communication...



also magnitude has no place in something being broken or overcentralizing enough to ban
theres no half way. its ether broken or its not.



Also do you guys realize that even if this come to fruition and you have you subjective standard of stages then... oh wait thats right... some characters are still better then others
cause we have seen some arguements stating that these stages help some characters.

 

[Madtsunami]

hye bi

deletechars

 

[Grim Tuesday]

how is someone miles beyond you if they cant beat you on a certain stage.

Maybe they are more skilled than you on that stage. But when more skilled on that stage = the exact opposite of what people generally define as skill (fast decision making, technical skill, mind-games and stage/character knowledge), you have a problem.

none of you can define skill without a confirmation bias in terms of stages. you strike the stages and from there you have neutral and a counterpick for both ends

I defined it above, happy?

i cant believe one would say it takes away from the game you guys take away from the game by depleting the amount of stages to show this "skill" your talking about.

Taking something away doesn't necessarily leave it less deep. RR/RC adds NOTHING to the game. NO ONE LIKES IT. WE DON'T NEED IT.

you guys are trying to warp this into a standard fighter whether you think it or not

If making the game more competitive means that it gets warped into a standard fighter, then so be it.

ten years people all in all theres another word for trying this but im trying not to lower the level of communication...

Your lack of grammar skills has already lowered the level of communication enough.

Also do you guys realize that even if this come to fruition and you have you subjective standard of stages

Are you trying to tell me our standard of stages isn't subjective right now? I'd love to hear an objective way of choosing our stages, any suggestions?

then... oh wait thats right... some characters are still better then others
cause we have seen some arguements stating that these stages help some characters.

The point isn't balancing characters.

Stand with a straight face and tell me that it takes more skill (skill being defined as fast decision making, technical skill, mind-games and stage/character knowledge) to run away on the left-hand side and top portion of Rainbow Cruise/Ride as Fox then it does to fight someone directly on Battlefield.

Re-Iteration for Emphasis: If a stage is actually taking away depth from the game, and no one likes it, what is the point in keeping it?

 

[Masmasher@]

Maybe they are more skilled than you on that stage. But when more skilled on that stage = the exact opposite of what people generally define as skill (fast decision making, technical skill, mind-games and stage/character knowledge), you have a problem.
I defined it above, happy?



Taking something away doesn't necessarily leave it less deep. RR/RC adds NOTHING to the game. NO ONE LIKES IT. WE DON'T NEED IT.



If making the game more competitive means that it gets warped into a standard fighter, then so be it.



Your lack of grammar skills has already lowered the level of communication enough.



Are you trying to tell me our standard of stages isn't subjective right now? I'd love to hear an objective way of choosing our stages, any suggestions?



The point isn't balancing characters.

Stand with a straight face and tell me that it takes more skill (skill being defined as fast decision making, technical skill, mind-games and stage/character knowledge) to run away on the left-hand side and top portion of Rainbow Cruise/Ride as Fox then it does to fight someone directly on Battlefield.

Re-Iteration for Emphasis: If a stage is actually taking away depth from the game, and no one likes it, what is the point in keeping it?

you say you define skill in melee without a confirmation bias then directly turn around and say " if we have to make this game more like a standard fighter then we will" also mastery of the stage isnt a skill? i mean how the hell do you contradict yourself in the same paragraph
Confirmation bias people

then you say "we dont like it so we dont need it"newsflash you dont ban some cause you dont like it. im guessing you dont know the criteria for banning something. the criteria is fullproof so there wont be scrub decisions made and slippery slopes which will eventually end with "fox no items, final destination" overcentralizing is the key.

you may not think camping is a high skill but that doesnt matter. if they beat you with it then they beat you with it.
also tell me that you arent catering to a certain ring of people.

its sad that you best argument was attacking a typo/blip in my post

 

[Grim Tuesday]

you say you define skill in melee without a confirmation bias then directly turn around and say " if we have to make this game more like a standard fighter then we will" also mastery of the stage isnt a skill? i mean how the hell do you contradict yourself in the same paragraph
Confirmation bias people

It's not about making it more like a standard fighter, it's about making it more competitive.

If you agree with Temple being banned, then it is a double standard for RC not to be banned. They fall under the same criteria of 'degenerate gameplay' and 'skill marginalizing'.

then you say "we dont like it so we dont need it"newsflash you dont ban some cause you dont like it.

Way to take that out of context.

I said that if the stage adds no depth, and no-one likes it, we don't need it.

Say there was a VERY popular stage, yet it added no depth to the game. People would still want to keep it, no? However, no one likes RC/RR.

im guessing you dont know the criteria for banning something. the criteria is fullproof so there wont be scrub decisions made and slippery slopes which will eventually end with "fox no items, final destination" overcentralizing is the key.

There is only one criteria for banning. 'Does it marginalize skill?' RC/R does.

you may not think camping is a high skill but that doesnt matter. if they beat you with it then they beat you with it.

I assume you support un-banning Temple then?

I mean, people may not think dealing 1% damage and running away for the whole match is a high skill but that doesnt matter. if they beat you with it then they beat you with it.

also tell me that you arent catering to a certain ring of people.

I'm not catering to a certain ring of people.

its sad that you best argument was attacking a typo/blip in my post

Cool story bro.

 

[Masmasher@]

It's not about making it more like a standard fighter, it's about making it more competitive.

If you agree with Temple being banned, then it is a double standard for RC not to be banned. They fall under the same criteria of 'degenerate gameplay' and 'skill marginalizing'.



Way to take that out of context.

I said that if the stage adds no depth, and no-one likes it, we don't need it.

Say there was a VERY popular stage, yet it added no depth to the game. People would still want to keep it, no? However, no one likes RC/RR.



There is only one criteria for banning. 'Does it marginalize skill?' RC/R does.


I assume you support un-banning Temple then?

I mean, people may not think dealing 1% damage and running away for the whole match is a high skill but that doesnt matter. if they beat you with it then they beat you with it.



I'm not catering to a certain ring of people.



Cool story bro.

thats silly
1. its been ten years. the community banned temple at the very beginning. the fact you think there isnt any difference is weird. you cannot run away on RC forever.

2. i notice that most of your arguements are tailored for rainbow criuse only.

3. also you keep defining skill with a confirmation bias the criteria for banning is overcentralizing. its ether fully broken or its not. theres no half way. you act like the other person cant switch his character if he/shes that concerned. ether that or deal with it. there are many fighting games that have stages that favor certain characters.
its funny that you guys are using street fighter subconsciously for the archtype for establishing what skill is/deciding what stages are ban worthy

 

[Ripple]

Firstly, my stance: No counter-picking system. FoD, YS, BF, DL64, FD and PS. I've been playing since 2003, yet this has only recently become my opinion on the matter.

well if smashers want a cp system then we should have one since thats what people want. (NOTE: please don't be an idiot after reading that phrase and be like "OMG, LOL, ripple is stupid. he contradicted himself. no, I didn't. its on a different level on subjectivity)I don't approve of the current cp system but thats another argument...

Let me point out that there is actually only one reason to ban a stage: Decreasing the amount of depth and skill required in the game.

agreed...

There is no point adding a stage just for the sake of adding it. Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise/Ride should be banned because any depth they add to the game is nullified by what they take away from the game.

agreed with the first part, disagree with the second

For example, RR/RC takes away vital aspects of the game such as edge-guarding, it also makes running away and camping (a far less deep and skillful option than approaching) more viable during most of the stage. It adds depth by giving a player who knows the stage well an advantage (this argument would apply much more to Poke Floats though, RR/RC is very easy to learn), it also adds depth to aerial combat and focusing on the stage as well as you and your opponent's character.

it does NOT take away the aspect of "edgeguarding" even though it has no ledges after the ship crashes. the mere fact that the opponent can recover in more than 1 way does not mean the RC "takes away a vital skill of gameplay"

running away and camping are NOT illegitamate ways to play/win this game. they may be "gay" and "cheap" but they are legitimate.

every stage gives a player an opponent an advantage if they learn the stage. a static stage provides the same opportunity to both players, so that point is moot.

what's wrong with focusing more on aerial combat? just because most people prefer ground combat does not give you the right to ban a stage.

However, I would say that it takes away more depth than it adds, so there is NO REASON TO HAVE THE STAGE. The stage is rarely chosen, and often turned off for friendlies as is because no one likes it, so preference is not a reason to keep it around.

prefreneces and "because no one likes it" are not a reason to ban a stage like I said earlier.

The same case can be made for Brinstar. It has some aspects that subtract depth and some that add it, but it appears to over-all take away depth.

the same case you could say but to FD. it subtracts the depth of aerial combat so it should be banned. right? but of course you'll disagree with me. why should we ban brinstar because it focuses on aerial combat to a great amount when FD does the exact opposite and is not even considered?

THAT is why they should be banned. None of this **** about whether they are random or if certain characters are too good on them. If the game is deeper without the stage, why have it?

the game is not deeper (as long as it does not prove to be degenerate, which in the 6-7 years of competitive melee, has not)

It is up to the TO to decide if the stage actually adds or removes depth of course.

it should be up to people who know **** about stages and philosophy

 

[Theftz22]

well if smashers want a cp system then we should have one since thats what people want.

ohohohohohohohohoho

 

[Ripple]

ohohohohohohohohoho

do you realize how stupid you are?

the game starts subjective

how do we want to win? stocks, timer, coins, time limit? there is NO OBJECTIVFIABLE WAY TO SAY WHAT WE SHOULD DO

with that comes the CP system (and banning criteria). the first round of descion making is ALWAYS subjective.

round 2 is OBJECTIVE. does this violate our rules or banning criteria? no? NO BAN!

know what your talking about before you come in here and post **** in which you have no idea about

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

1st off I feel like being extremely tecnhical NOTHING in melee is broken other than stages that force jumps. or if the picked someone who can be sheild stabbed with their full sheild or yoshi because they can't 100% powersheild everything.

there are things that can't be beaten like perfect played defence or likr marth onknogo jungle fairing at you trying to get on but nothing as far as I know besides being forced to jump is broken because air vs air in melee isn't balnced __________ always wins no matter what. puff's air movement will basically beat everything when it comes to air vs air. falcon in air nearly loses to everything/one even pichu because pichu's fair is disjointed.

So no matter how perfect they play if forced into the air you will lose as ppeople like ice climbers or whoeversure you could try to bair coming up but if you miss which has the most room for you lose and get hit when we are thinking of being forced to jump up a whole paltforms worth that's a whole jump maybe if it were a small jump it's be avoidable with an airdodge.

some stages foce you into these broken cases.seriously you must jump and you auto lose unless you picked puff unless you edge stall to avoid the lava and you know what that's like you can't as like most the cast.so like a handful avoid the brokenness.

Seriously prove me wrong about melee's air vs air game not being broken, this is one of the main causes of the whole puff are broken debate. yes if it's AIR VS AIR puff auto wins but puff must land and you aren't in the air the whole time plus SHFFL game isn't like air vs air like you may see in puff dittos or sheik vs puff. it'd be like fox full hopping trying to outspace puff with nair without any running start.

stages that force upwards movemnt have problems also before someone calls me out on rinstar depths in truth the upwards movement forced is no higher than a SH in most casesnot enough to count as air vs air.

 

[Theftz22]

lol what argument are you addressing exactly?

None that I've ever made.

 

[a13c]

im new what is 1212121 stricking mean?

 

[Ripple]

there are things that can't be beaten like perfect played defence or likr marth onknogo jungle fairing at you trying to get on but nothing as far as I know besides being forced to jump is broken because air vs air in melee isn't balnced __________ always wins no matter what. puff's air movement will basically beat everything when it comes to air vs air. falcon in air nearly loses to everything/one even pichu because pichu's fair is disjointed.

this isn't super theory bros. you know that ICG, there is no perfect play. you don't base things off theory. but off of observations.

that said, even though puff has 2 stages in which she can abuse and 1 is always banned. she has no been proven to be over centralizing. and air vs. air is probably broken for puff. its a good thing that these stages HAVE A FLOOR.

falcon is bad on brinstar? so?

So no matter how perfect they play if forced into the air you will lose as ppeople like ice climbers or whoeversure you could try to bair coming up but if you miss which has the most room for you lose and get hit when we are thinking of being forced to jump up a whole paltforms worth that's a whole jump maybe if it were a small jump it's be avoidable with an airdodge.

you don't always lose. if you did, this stage would have beeen banned a long time ago. and you aren't forced to jump just because of the lava. you can stall on the ledge with sheik if you so choose and wait for the lava to go down. or better yet, prepare for the lava and hit jiggs out of a position in which she could punish you. this simply comes down to being outplayed

some stages foce you into these broken cases.seriously you must jump and you auto lose unless you picked puff unless you edge stall to avoid the lava and you know what that's like you can't as like most the cast.so like a handful avoid the brokenness.

whats wrong with a handful of characters avoiding it? IIRC there is only a handful of characters viable for play at all.

Seriously prove me wrong about melee's air vs air game not being broken, this is one of the main causes of the whole puff are broken debate. yes if it's AIR VS AIR puff auto wins but puff must land and you aren't in the air the whole time plus SHFFL game isn't like air vs air like you may see in puff dittos or sheik vs puff. it'd be like fox full hopping trying to outspace puff with nair without any running start.

it is broken, if in fact these stages didn't have a ground or in super theory bros.

stages that force upwards movemnt have problems also before someone calls me out on rinstar depths in truth the upwards movement forced is no higher than a SH in most casesnot enough to count as air vs air.

DL64 forces backwords movement and upward movement. banned? nope

lol what argument are you addressing exactly?

None that I've ever made.

don't play dumb. you quoted me as if to point a blatent flaw in my argument when it was not.

I then expanded on why you were wrong

 

[P.C. Jona]

dk sucks

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I used to think you were cool but now I'm really not sure. I play Luigi and Brinstar Depths is no doubt the worst stage. I'm physically revolted to think that there is a person who actually likes it.

I've made people rage quit from trying to time them out on KJ64 and had fun notjust talking about bunbun but also friendilies. I play super gay sometimes I think puff is one of the funnest chacters to fight and play as.

this isn't super theory bros. you know that ICG, there is no perfect play. you don't base things off theory. but off of observations.

I argee but it is another way to look

that said, even though puff has 2 stages in which she can abuse and 1 is always banned. she has no been proven to be over centralizing. and air vs. air is probably broken for puff. its a good thing that these stages HAVE A FLOOR.

falcon is bad on brinstar? so?

Very few people can fight puff in the air near gorund projectiles beat it through and other things but direct air vs air puff is faster with more range in most caess and you can't defend yourself like with a sheild or something of the natral

you don't always lose. if you did, this stage would have beeen banned a long time ago. and you aren't forced to jump just because of the lava. you can stall on the ledge with sheik if you so choose and wait for the lava to go down. or better yet, prepare for the lava and hit jiggs out of a position in which she could punish you. this simply comes down to being outplayed

What I saw here was position this stage controls your position the stage pressures you into a place where you lose it's like the stage tech chaseing you into a disadvancage. We can both argee that most air ground totally outclass each other right? or they can SOMETIMES stand up for a sec.

Also I'm the one who did a lot of master hand testing and what i discovered time after time again the only stages he could do even somewhat decent on were the ones where the stage locked you down or forced you to do something. MH is best played on the following legal stage for the following reasons.

Brinstar- lava can't hurt him during an attack unlike you and all you're space is quickly takin leaving you on a single platform where it's harder to defend yourself if he attacked high he could force you to choicebetween the attack and the lava where may lend to one another

RR or RC- MH canabuse how you MUST move and then he puts his hitboxes in front of you. MH is basically a charcter that puts a long hit box somewhere obivous and you just don't walk into it.

Ys he is better here due to lack of space and the cloud makes his hotboxes move in useful way that could let him do REAL pressure not a cheap stage trick.


whats wrong with a handful of characters avoiding it? IIRC there is only a handful of characters viable for play at all.

If there is just one or 2 charcters f***ed up then t really doesn't matter i'll argee like in the extreme fox could camp kirby to death on basically any stage he wants some match-ups the stage can't change the easy to abuse tactics really without being game breaking on real time levels. stages with walls are commonly banned because fox can inf. you to death and I could image some crazy sheild pressure tacticsjust keep bairing.

there's a lot to say about this I don't want to rant to much



DL64 forces backwords movement and upward movement. banned? nope

DL64 the stage doesn't foce you to do anything if you aren't fighting and let go of your control is the stage forcing you to do anything? will you die if you don't do anything? it foces no upwards movement the wind CAN move you but that isn't forced you could choice to walk with or aganist unlike lava and moveing blastlines you can't push back the lava/blastlines.

in green thank you for your views

 

[Raziek]

Just throwing this out there, I read nothing in the thread, but I found it on a namesearch.

Stages are always good unless degenerate, no "normal play" johns, see you melee kids later.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

thats silly
1. its been ten years. the community banned temple at the very beginning. the fact you think there isnt any difference is weird. you cannot run away on RC forever.

2. i notice that most of your arguements are tailored for rainbow criuse only.

3. also you keep defining skill with a confirmation bias the criteria for banning is overcentralizing. its ether fully broken or its not. theres no half way. you act like the other person cant switch his character if he/shes that concerned. ether that or deal with it. there are many fighting games that have stages that favor certain characters.
its funny that you guys are using street fighter subconsciously for the archtype for establishing what skill is/deciding what stages are ban worthy

1. ...What?
Temple is banned because it marginalizes skill.
I support RC/RR being banned because I believe it marginalizes skill.

So if you want to keep RC/R un-banned, it is a double standard to keep Temple banned.

2. That's because Cruise is a more extreme example, i.e. easier to use in examples.

3a. What would you define as skill?
3b. The only criteria for banning is skill marginalizing. Over-centalizing often falls under this category, but it is NOT the ban criteria.
3c. What are you talking about? I said nothing in my post about stages being "half-way" broken.
3d. Name one popular non-Smash fighting game that has stages that favours certain characters. Also, the counter-pick system (both for characters and stages) is VERY un-competitive and examples based around it should be avoided in discussions like this.
3e. I don't currently and have never played Street Fighter, competitively or otherwise. So that point is null and void.

I'm done with you. You have no idea what you are talking about, and Ripple is supporting the same thing as you with better arguments.

well if smashers want a cp system then we should have one since thats what people want. (NOTE: please don't be an idiot after reading that phrase and be like "OMG, LOL, ripple is stupid. he contradicted himself. no, I didn't. its on a different level on subjectivity)I don't approve of the current cp system but thats another argument...

No one intelligent wants our current CP system Ripple.

agreed...

Cool.

agreed with the first part, disagree with the second

Alright.

it does NOT take away the aspect of "edgeguarding" even though it has no ledges after the ship crashes. the mere fact that the opponent can recover in more than 1 way does not mean the RC "takes away a vital skill of gameplay"

Watch any match on RC. Any strategy when it comes to recovering is pretty un-common.

running away and camping are NOT illegitamate ways to play/win this game. they may be "gay" and "cheap" but they are legitimate.

Wrong. They are artificial win criteria created by us because of NECESSITY (tournaments running on time). Supporting them via our ruleset should be avoided.

every stage gives a player an opponent an advantage if they learn the stage. a static stage provides the same opportunity to both players, so that point is moot.

Some stages have to be learnt more than others. It takes much longer to learn Poke Floats than it does to learn Final Destination. It also adds depth to the game as players actually have to learn the stage. I wasn't talking about advantages.

That point supports RC's legality anyway, why are you arguing against it? xD

what's wrong with focusing more on aerial combat? just because most people prefer ground combat does not give you the right to ban a stage.

Nothing is wrong with it being aerial based. I said that was one of the things that ADDED depth in my post.

prefreneces and "because no one likes it" are not a reason to ban a stage like I said earlier.

Already explained this:

Way to take that out of context.

I said that if the stage adds no depth, and no-one likes it, we don't need it.

Say there was a VERY popular stage, yet it added no depth to the game. People would still want to keep it, no? However, no one likes RC/RR.

the same case you could say but to FD. it subtracts the depth of aerial combat so it should be banned. right? but of course you'll disagree with me. why should we ban brinstar because it focuses on aerial combat to a great amount when FD does the exact opposite and is not even considered?

I SAID THAT AERIAL COMBAT ADDS DEPTH STOP ARGUING AGAINST SOMETHING THAT SUPPORTS YOUR POINT RRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGG.

I didn't actually post any reasons for why I think Brinstar should be banned, don't put words into my mouth.

the game is not deeper (as long as it does not prove to be degenerate, which in the 6-7 years of competitive melee, has not)

It is ARGUABLY not deeper, which is why I added that last part of my post (your response below).

And no, they aren't degenerate to the point that Hyrule is. But watching any Fox vs. Jigglypuff match on Brinstar should demonstrate how it subtracts skill (and thus, depth) from the game.

it should be up to people who know **** about stages and philosophy

Good point, Hitler -_-

It is up to the people who run the tournaments, actually. And it is up to the people who know **** about stages and philosophy to convince the TOs to support them.

I'll run my tournaments with them banned, you can run yours with them un-banned. We'll see who's way catches on. Feel free to try and convince me I'm wrong, I don't think I really need too considering all of the top tier players who have posted in this thread agree with me.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I banned those stages from my tournaments because they reduce the skillset and overcentralize the skillset that is tested for. Being able to run away and force approaches is fine, but on "neutral" stages it is countered by taking stage control and choking out room and both strategies are very equal on neutrals depending on stage size (smaller stages favor choking while larger stages favor avoiding) but the strategy is available regardless of stage size. You aren't rushing the opponent in order to hit him, but rather enter a threatening zone.

On RC this is unavailable past the boat section due to constant stage movement and small platforms which makes it hard to safely gain ground to prevent the camp. It degenerates the gameplay to camp vs camp or camp vs run at the opponent (i guess neither player could camp, too). If anyone has played a good defensive player you will know running at them is not very efficient. This makes RC very lopsided for anyone who is forced to be aggressive.

Brinstar has a slightly different problem. When lava is not involved, the stage is quite playable. Ignoring how the gameplay runs because of the awkward platforms, the stage has 2 edges and is somewhat symmetrical. Room can be slowly choked out and escaping the choke can be avoided via platform movement. The lava is what makes the stage unplayable. Other than jigglypuff and peach, spacing/choking characters lose all advantages they have gained once the lava forces them out of position. If the stage didn't force positional changes, I wouldn't mind it.

As for KJ64, I almost want to ban it simply because its boarderline impossible to choke someone out on that stage making running away very very strong. No character can threaten platfroms from the ground and some characters can barely threaten the platforms at all.

 

[PB&J]

I don't support FD at all. I was actually going to say something about that in the post but I didn't really see how it'd fit. But yeah, I think FD is by far the worst neutral.

i remember when you told me this at pat's house and i agree with you 100 percent


hax-im glad you made this thread. i rather just play on neutral stages only with fd as a conterpick.

we should honestly do like a vote or something for a new rule set for pound 5 and beyond

darc- i always knew you were great on brinstar, but after that third game , i think you are the best smasher there and think it is very hard for you to lose there

edit: After M2k lost to Dr.pp on rc he told me.." i didnt even know that stage was still legal, i thought we evolved way past from playing on gay stages"

 

[Hax]

Ripple stop repeating arguments that have already been refuted. counter the claim that brinstar skews matchups to a ridiculous extent and reduces the skill necessary to compete already; seriously you're like talking to a wall

 

[VA]

I really like the 7 neutrals idea. I will try to get it trialled at the next UK tournament.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Brinstar totally warps match-ups so if you're not as good or even know WTF you're doing on brinstar to get a large advance vs space animals
or whoever esle gets stage *****.

at times it's like however gets ***** by the stage less

 

[PB&J]

i like the european rules..looks very good..

 

[Ripple]

Ripple stop repeating arguments that have already been refuted. counter the claim that brinstar skews matchups to a ridiculous extent and reduces the skill necessary to compete already; seriously you're like talking to a wall

you can't say if does something "too much" with out really using the slippery slope.

if it doesn't go against out ban criteria (do this or lose). which is usually 2/3 of the cast is rendered useless when otherwise viable, then you don't ban it.

let's say that these characters are viable
-fox
-falco
-puff
-Sheik
-marth
-peach
-Falcon
-ganon
-ICs

are 2/3 of them useless now against puff?

-fox
-falco
-Sheik
-marth ?
-peach
-Falcon
-ganon
-ICs
Samus (for the sake of having 9)

nope

 

[G.L.]

i wouldnt mind trying a new rule set. i dont think brinstar or RC are THAT bad, but creating a more fair playing field is always good i think

 

[JBM falcon08]

I would say another important part to the thread would be why is it ok that rc and brinstar are still legal when we have stages like mute city that are just as good as the two of those.

I'd rather have rc and brinstar banned then bring back corneria and mute.

 

[VA]

mute is ****

 

[hungrybox]

I'm down with the MLG Brawl Ruleset

you keep striking like 11 stages 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 or w/e till there is one stage left

It is the most fair way to do it. you end up with a stage that neither person dislikes.

 

[Bing]

Yeah I liked Corneria, but people camp like a douche there. so yeah. and Hbox, that would be rather amusing. "Okay so Fox ditto's on Battlefield, GO!"

 

[Masmasher@]

1. ...What?
Temple is banned because it marginalizes skill.
I support RC/RR being banned because I believe it marginalizes skill.

So if you want to keep RC/R un-banned, it is a double standard to keep Temple banned.

2. That's because Cruise is a more extreme example, i.e. easier to use in examples.

3a. What would you define as skill?
3b. The only criteria for banning is skill marginalizing. Over-centalizing often falls under this category, but it is NOT the ban criteria.
3c. What are you talking about? I said nothing in my post about stages being "half-way" broken.
3d. Name one popular non-Smash fighting game that has stages that favours certain characters. Also, the counter-pick system (both for characters and stages) is VERY un-competitive and examples based around it should be avoided in discussions like this.
3e. I don't currently and have never played Street Fighter, competitively or otherwise. So that point is null and void.

I'm done with you. You have no idea what you are talking about, and Ripple is supporting the same thing as you with better arguments.

look
temple was banned because of the fact that fox can shoot lasers and run away right...
it wasnt because of camping taking less skill it was literally because once he got a percent lead you couldnt catch him. the fact that you think rainbow cruise is the same as temple really shows how hollow your accusation is. it s not a double standard because it not the same thing.
people have been dealing with rainbow cruise and camping for years its been proven that you can win the matchup against camping. now all of a sudden you dont want to deal with it so you ban the stage. which leads into what people are telling you. you dont ban something because you dont like it.

also dont reflect the question of defining skill back on to me cause you cant answer it without a confirmation bias. heck you contradicted yourself the first time but ill humor you. skill is being able to win given the circumstances have been set with something that isnt banned broken or overcenteralizing/ a progress of working toward playing at the highest level of play.

also look at soul calibur or to a lesser extent tekken or virtua fighter. based on the stage some characters are better suited.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Look, RC doesn't test for the same set of skills that any other legal stage does. At this point its all a matter of opposing game theories, but I am part of the group that thinks the neutral stages are the best for competitive play. This group of people have existed since 2005 and probably before.

The only double standard is that you aren't arguing for Floats, Mute City, Onett, Green Greens, MK2, and Corneria to be legal. None of them have temple-esque strategies for them to be banned. They were banned for the same reason we want to ban RC and Brinstar.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

look
temple was banned because of the fact that fox can shoot lasers and run away right...
it wasnt because of camping taking less skill it was literally because once he got a percent lead you couldnt catch him. the fact that you think rainbow cruise is the same as temple really shows how hollow your accusation is. it s not a double standard because it not the same thing.
people have been dealing with rainbow cruise and camping for years its been proven that you can win the matchup against camping. now all of a sudden you dont want to deal with it so you ban the stage. which leads into what people are telling you. you dont ban something because you dont like it.

also dont reflect the question of defining skill back on to me cause you cant answer it without a confirmation bias. heck you contradicted yourself the first time but ill humor you. skill is being able to win given the circumstances have been set with something that isnt banned broken or overcenteralizing/ a progress of working toward playing at the highest level of play.

also look at soul calibur or to a lesser extent tekken or virtua fighter. based on the stage some characters are better suited.

I'll take the bait, I guess.

Fox running away and shooting lasers IS marginalizing skill. You say that Temple is banned because Fox can win by doing 1% and running away, right? Would you not call the win condition turning into that "skill marginalizing"?

Rainbow Cruise doesn't have to be as broken as Temple. The fact is that it makes the game take far less skill (in my opinion) than the other stages we have legal. Fox can literally run away from most of the viable characters for the entire left and top sections of the stage.

People have been dealing with it because it is tradition, not because it isn't broken. Of course you can win against the camping, but all in all it just leads to a very depth-less fight. It isn't just that it lacks depth though, it's that no one even wants to play on it BECAUSE of how it removes depth.

I love how you think that people other than you and Ripple have been telling me I'm wrong, rather than agreeing with me And I'm not banning the stage because I don't like it, that would be stupid.

It wasn't a contradiction, actually. Think of it this way. Imagine that Smash was 100% skill. and skill was 20% stage knowledge, 20% character knowledge, 20% mind-games, 20% technical skill and 20% reaction time/decision making.

I said in my post that the person might be MORE SKILLED ON THAT STAGE but not in the other aspects. Does the person who is only skilled at 1/5th of the game deserve to win against the player who is skilled at 4/5ths of it? Hypothetical example, of course, but you get what I mean.

"skill is being able to win given the circumstances have been set with something that isnt banned broken or overcenteralizing/ a progress of working toward playing at the highest level of play"

Exactly. Broken and over-centralizing elements of the game are banned because they marginalize skill. I am saying that RC/RR fits the criteria.

I keep telling you, making the game take less skill is THE ONLY REASON THINGS ARE BANNED. Over-centralizing is just a sub-example of that. Just as luck-based stages are another sub-example, etc...

I play Soul Calibur competitively, the stages hardly matter. Nice try though.

EDIT: What Sveet said with the double standard applies too.

 

[-ACE-]

Look, RC doesn't test for the same set of skills that any other legal stage does. At this point its all a matter of opposing game theories, but I am part of the group that thinks the neutral stages are the best for competitive play. This group of people have existed since 2005 and probably before.

The only double standard is that you aren't arguing for Floats, Mute City, Onett, Green Greens, MK2, and Corneria to be legal. None of them have temple-esque strategies for them to be banned. They were banned for the same reason we want to ban RC and Brinstar.

Agreed .

 

[Masmasher@]

I'll take the bait, I guess.

Fox running away and shooting lasers IS marginalizing skill. You say that Temple is banned because Fox can win by doing 1% and running away, right? Would you not call the win condition turning into that "skill marginalizing"?

Rainbow Cruise doesn't have to be as broken as Temple. The fact is that it makes the game take far less skill (in my opinion) than the other stages we have legal. Fox can literally run away from most of the viable characters for the entire left and top sections of the stage.

People have been dealing with it because it is tradition, not because it isn't broken. Of course you can win against the camping, but all in all it just leads to a very depth-less fight. It isn't just that it lacks depth though, it's that no one even wants to play on it BECAUSE of how it removes depth.

I love how you think that people other than you and Ripple have been telling me I'm wrong, rather than agreeing with me And I'm not banning the stage because I don't like it, that would be stupid.

It wasn't a contradiction, actually. Think of it this way. Imagine that Smash was 100% skill. and skill was 20% stage knowledge, 20% character knowledge, 20% mind-games, 20% technical skill and 20% reaction time/decision making.

I said in my post that the person might be MORE SKILLED ON THAT STAGE but not in the other aspects. Does the person who is only skilled at 1/5th of the game deserve to win against the player who is skilled at 4/5ths of it? Hypothetical example, of course, but you get what I mean.

"skill is being able to win given the circumstances have been set with something that isnt banned broken or overcenteralizing/ a progress of working toward playing at the highest level of play"

Exactly. Broken and over-centralizing elements of the game are banned because they marginalize skill. I am saying that RC/RR fits the criteria.

I keep telling you, making the game take less skill is THE ONLY REASON THINGS ARE BANNED. Over-centralizing is just a sub-example of that. Just as luck-based stages are another sub-example, etc...

I play Soul Calibur competitively, the stages hardly matter. Nice try though.

EDIT: What Sveet said with the double standard applies too.

soul calibur 4 is stage dependant for some characters.

unless you wanna tell me that hilde with doom combo isnt nigh close to a free win on any stage like the raft
or that yoshi with wall can get over half damage if he plays it right.
or that nightmare on a caged stage cant carry over from corner to corner and okisume/frame traps become increased because of the corner
yes i play sc4 competitvely also so these things matter.

i wouldnt call the win with fox on temple skill marginalizing i would call that broken.
you cant do anything about it. rainbow cruise is different. fox cant run away forever, he can be caught and punished.
skill marginization is not a good choice of words in this case because of the fact that it falls into simply being camping.
and yes if the person 4/5ths cant overcome a measly 1/5 of a opponents skill then yes they deserve to lose. its all relative. heck you cant even quantifly mindgames like that but good job on clearing your statement up.
.do you not understand that the context of the that you using "lack of depth" is just another word for irritation. degrading the game because you dont want to deal with something is bad for competition
its scrubby

 

[Grim Tuesday]

soul calibur 4 is stage dependant for some characters.

unless you wanna tell me that hilde with doom combo isnt nigh close to a free win on any stage like the raft
or that yoshi with wall can get over half damage if he plays it right.
or that nightmare on a caged stage cant carry over from corner to corner and okisume/frame traps become increased because of the corner
yes i play sc4 competitvely also so these things matter.

i wouldnt call the win with fox on temple skill marginalizing i would call that broken.
you cant do anything about it. rainbow cruise is different. fox cant run away forever, he can be caught and punished.
skill marginization is not a good choice of words in this case because of the fact that it falls into simply being camping.
and yes if the person 4/5ths cant overcome a measly 1/5 of a opponents skill then yes they deserve to lose. its all relative. heck you cant even quantifly mindgames like that but good job on clearing your statement up.
.do you not understand that the context of the that you using "lack of depth" is just another word for irritation. degrading the game because you dont want to deal with something is bad for competition
its scrubby

Yes, the stages in Soul Calibur matter. I probably put that wrongly in my post, sorry. But it is no way near the level of stage interaction that is in Smash.

Temple is banned for the same reason as Poke Floats, Temple is just a more extreme example. Being "broken" isn't ban criteria, it is just a way of describing the ability some characters have on the stage that MARGINALIZE SKILL. You don't ban a stage for being too good for one character, that just means the character is good. But if that character can win with little to no effort, then it is skill marginalizing.

If you think removing RC because of "lack of depth" is scrubby, then you also support the legalization of Temple. That's the point I was getting at before.

Over-centralization is skill marginalizing.
Random elements are skill marginalizing.
Broken is just a describing word often used for tactics that marginalize skill. (No one complains about very difficult tactics being broken, only the easy ones).

 

[KirbyKaze]

Battlefield only

FD sucks

 

[DippnDots]

Brinstar should stay, get rid of RC tho

 

[Masmasher@]

Yes, the stages in Soul Calibur matter. I probably put that wrongly in my post, sorry. But it is no way near the level of stage interaction that is in Smash.

Temple is banned for the same reason as Poke Floats, Temple is just a more extreme example. Being "broken" isn't ban criteria, it is just a way of describing the ability some characters have on the stage that MARGINALIZE SKILL. You don't ban a stage for being too good for one character, that just means the character is good. But if that character can win with little to no effort, then it is skill marginalizing.

If you think removing RC because of "lack of depth" is scrubby, then you also support the legalization of Temple. That's the point I was getting at before.

Over-centralization is skill marginalizing.
Random elements are skill marginalizing.
Broken is just a describing word often used for tactics that marginalize skill. (No one complains about very difficult tactics being broken, only the easy ones).

its more or less the same thing.
i just dont see how poke floats is the same as temple. camping can be stopped. the terms you are using marginalizing skill are different. thats why i'm saying broken because theres a fundamental difference. the level of temple is non changing but you cannot do anything about it when fox scores a hit and runs. there is no double standard. flat out. there is a difference between camping and being able to be untouchable. also yoshis island was banned because of the walk off and guess who primarily you have to thank for that...fox

that stage is really good for him lmao should be a counter pick


items take control away from the players when they explode. probably being nitpicky with this last statement though

also degree of skill doesnt matter when talking about if somethings broken