Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Stealth Raptor]

me and steeler will try to get a lot of people to try it at the next ks tourney, NO KOAST. we have an *** load of people coming

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Well, there has already been one tournament for Balanced Brawl so far, albeit a small one. UTD Zac has a really promising BBrawl tournament played up, and I'm looking into venues myself to host such a tournament. Hopefully both will turn out good and have some videos to watch once they are done.

I'm sure BBrawl will spread itself as more people learn about it. The best you can do right now is try and convince your local smash community to have it as a side event (or main event!) at it's smashfests and tournaments, as well as wearing the Balanced Brawl signature.

I really do have hope for Balanced brawl being the new SF2 Turbo HD Remix :3

 

[JOE!]

I could try and get it going at Anime Boston next year....dunno if it'd fly though <.<

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Had an inquiry about temple, and to an extent Spear Pillar.

Temple seems near unplayable. I like what the original idea with it was, but if you play on the right side of the level, the camera fixes itself much too high. You're typically fighting right behind the HUD (character portraits and damage percentages), and those are a large obstruction. The ceiling seems unnaturally low as well for how wide the stage is as well. An interesting element though, and I'm guessing the reason you implemented it was to allow people to get killed in the middle of the stage easier (as the left/right boundaries would be very far away).

As for Spear Pillar, I'm an advocate of leaving things as close to their vBrawl components as you guys, but the Pokemon are just far too active on Spear Pillar to be fighting in front of them all the time. Either people get killed by them often, or fights just stop while the Pokemon attack. The lower boundary also seems a bit too low (you have to remain higher than usual sometimes when recovering). I suppose that was to prevent people from going into the lower part of the level though.

Anyhow, in the future if there's ever a way to make the Pokemon attack less frequently, I'd recommend using that. Or getting rid of the Pokemon altogether (which would probably require a new code as well; freezing the stage would probably stop the hovering platforms).

I'm ready and willing to talk about these stages. Basically, our tools are really limited. For Temple, we needed to place the lower blast zone pretty high in order for players not to be able to easily run the old loop. I find the right side is still playable, just a bit obnoxious. The lower ceiling is for exactly the reason you say. You can still live a very long time on Temple; this just reduces it a bit. I know the stage is still... questionable. It is, however, an infinite improvement over how it used to be. For now, and possibly in general, it's just the best we can do with this stage.

Spear Pillar was likewise hard. That is the absolute lowest the blastzone can go without allowing players to walk on the lower area. In order to make this really better, we need a code to alter collision on parts of the stage; then I could lower the blastzone a lot and simply remove all collision with the bottom part of the stage. I don't think the Pokemon are that big of a deal in general (Dialga at least, and Cresselia wouldn't be if it didn't hit so hard... which is another code I wish I had and don't), but I would really like specific event editing for stages so I could remove the "breaking the floor" event Dialga likes to do (it's pretty stupid with no lower area).

In general, stage hacking is way behind character hacking and probably always will be. I really hope we have more and better codes for the next version; I'd love to clean up these two stages to be easier choices for legality, and I'd like to put some fairness work into a lot of other stages as well (Shadow Moses Island, Flat Zone 2, Port Town Aero Dive, Skyworld...). We just did what we could do with our limited codes.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

...?

Also, Skyworld... what's done about skyworld? I saw a proposal for that too...

 

[Big O]

Did you guys know that someone like MK or Jiggs can go under the stage in Temple where the cave of life used to be even though the blastzone was raised? It could probably be used to run away safely from certain characters.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I don't like that model for either stage (I also really, really hate the idea of "deadlands"; what a way to ruin such a cool stage). I already explained what I'd do for Spear Pillar, and I think it's really just about the only model (how would that model support Dialga's background attack, among other issues). As per Skyworld, I'd merely tweak the "health" of the various pieces. I'd make the four pieces with ledges much stronger than they are now, and I'd make those top two much weaker than they are now (the middle ones on the bottom and the second piece of the left "platform" could stay as they are now). This would make it very easy to destroy the "cave of life" (hit the upper platforms with any attack this side of Luigi's down taunt), and it would make stage destruction with the purpose of gimping much more difficult in general. Skyworld would retain its nature as Skyworld and not become "Battlefield in the clouds". I also don't think that lower platform (which isn't breakable, by the way) is a problem at all..

Of course, we just plain don't have the codes now to do much of anything.

Yes, we're aware of that with Temple. It's tight enough that it shouldn't really be practical as a stalling tactic, but we weren't able to explore that in depth.

 

[JOE!]

i dont like Mario Kart too much, promotes side camping...alot <.<

 

[bbb]

oh they nerfed wario, sweet

 

[Crescens]

I don't like that model for either stage (I also really, really hate the idea of "deadlands"; what a way to ruin such a cool stage). I already explained what I'd do for Spear Pillar, and I think it's really just about the only model (how would that model support Dialga's background attack, among other issues). As per Skyworld, I'd merely tweak the "health" of the various pieces. I'd make the four pieces with ledges much stronger than they are now, and I'd make those top two much weaker than they are now (the middle ones on the bottom and the second piece of the left "platform" could stay as they are now). This would make it very easy to destroy the "cave of life" (hit the upper platforms with any attack this side of Luigi's down taunt), and it would make stage destruction with the purpose of gimping much more difficult in general. Skyworld would retain its nature as Skyworld and not become "Battlefield in the clouds". I also don't think that lower platform (which isn't breakable, by the way) is a problem at all..

Of course, we just plain don't have the codes now to do much of anything.

Yes, we're aware of that with Temple. It's tight enough that it shouldn't really be practical as a stalling tactic, but we weren't able to explore that in depth.

Honestly, I think custom stages are the best option. Though I support the diversification of the game through stage variety as much as you do, I feel that pretty much all the stages that are not viable in vBrawl retain certain flaws in BBrawl. They're considerably better, and I play on them happily, yes - but the flaws are still there. I think spear pillar and hyrule were better in vBrawl; merely as function 'ultra-casual-friendly-stages' on occassion. As they are now, however, I'm inclined to just stay away from them.

I've always found it silly that custom stages aren't used in tournaments. The notion has been explored thoroughly in games infinitely more competitive than smash - it's one of the (countless) reasons why Starcraft has retained such a high level of competition (and is still fun) so long after it's conception. Granted, custom stages don't allow interactive elements, but that's ultimately a minor part of what makes a stage interesting, and usually tends to be the major factor concerning the banning of a stage.

Obviously, this wouldn't be particularly viable with Stack Smash; but if this were made possible I would consider it preferable to attempting to make inherently flawed stages workable.

 

[Linkshot]

I, for one, LOVE the new Spear Pillar. It's truly amazing.

And now that you mention the lower ceiling, I see Temple as a CP for upwards to go to. Did someone say Wiigii?

 

[Mit]

I'm ready and willing to talk about these stages. Basically, our tools are really limited. For Temple, we needed to place the lower blast zone pretty high in order for players not to be able to easily run the old loop. I find the right side is still playable, just a bit obnoxious. The lower ceiling is for exactly the reason you say. You can still live a very long time on Temple; this just reduces it a bit. I know the stage is still... questionable. It is, however, an infinite improvement over how it used to be. For now, and possibly in general, it's just the best we can do with this stage.

Spear Pillar was likewise hard. That is the absolute lowest the blastzone can go without allowing players to walk on the lower area. In order to make this really better, we need a code to alter collision on parts of the stage; then I could lower the blastzone a lot and simply remove all collision with the bottom part of the stage. I don't think the Pokemon are that big of a deal in general (Dialga at least, and Cresselia wouldn't be if it didn't hit so hard... which is another code I wish I had and don't), but I would really like specific event editing for stages so I could remove the "breaking the floor" event Dialga likes to do (it's pretty stupid with no lower area).

In general, stage hacking is way behind character hacking and probably always will be. I really hope we have more and better codes for the next version; I'd love to clean up these two stages to be easier choices for legality, and I'd like to put some fairness work into a lot of other stages as well (Shadow Moses Island, Flat Zone 2, Port Town Aero Dive, Skyworld...). We just did what we could do with our limited codes.

Thanks for the great reply. If you could edit collision detection that would indeed be ideal. The camera could probably be fidgeted with more in Temple that way to prevent the fighting in front of the HUD (that's mostly what's killing it for me, and the fairly high lower blastzone.

On Spear Pillar though, I will say that I like it when Dialga breaks the stage Seeing as how there's no lower portion, it opens up a big hole in the stage which allows for some gimping possibilities and adds some temporary danger to things (and restricts gameplay to more fierce, constrained areas). I would actually rather he keep all his moves except the one where he jumps out onto the field. Seems to catch a lot of people off guard (to devastating results), and stops the fight almost 100% of the time. Cresselia I think should just be banned, to the very frequent, and very powerful attacks it does, which are made 10x harder to avoid due to the lack of the lower portion of the stage.


Also, I think Luigi's Mansion should be slowed down a bit more. I was looking forward to the house staying dead for a longer period of time, but it still seemed to respawn relatively quick. Does slowing the stage actually slow the animations down, and slowing it further would make it look awkward or something?

EDIT for moar: Port Town Aero Dive - if this stage could get a serious nerf to the damage the cars do I think it could be fine, just like the similar F-Zero stage in Melee.

Bridge of Eldin - Why is this in Counterpick/Banned? Just wondering. I find the size and nature of the stage to be fantastic for certain characters (namely, those with bad recoveries like Link), and any weakness in the stage I can think of (ability to walk off the level and whatnot) are already in other accepted stages like Mario Circuit or Distant Planet (perhaps to a lesser extent than those levels even).

And I think Corneria is by far the best buffed stage I quite enjoy playing that stage now.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Luigi's Mansion can be slowed down indefinitely (though it will look increasingly awkward), but it already stays gone for what I consider a very long time (it's about 40 seconds, and this starts counting when you break the last part).

Dialga breaking the stage is mostly a problem when he does it at bad times, such as when you are just inputting a jab with Ike. The floor is gone from under you instantly, and you're doing a nair. It's pretty bad. The background attack (as I call Dialga jumping on the stage) isn't bad at all. It gives you tons of warning and is pretty easy to avoid. Given how it's fairly rare as well, I don't see it as a problem. Though, it and Cresselia both, I'd really like to just make less damaging and less fatal. I think that would make people have fewer issues with them. Unfortunately, the current hitbox code can't handle hazards at all (I found the correct input data for the cars on PTAD, but the hitbox code simply doesn't acknowledge those hitboxes).

EDIT for extended reply action.

I agree with PTAD. I want that code to exist. Actually, IMO, the stage is fair as it is, but it's incredibly obnoxious and not going to be accepted by very many people. It would be such a win-win if the cars could be nerfed.

As per BoE, some of the character biases are a little silly. Try using a slow character with no projectiles against run-away Olimar here. It's not quite "unwinnable", but it's extremely hard to deal with. Mario Circuit is definitely a far more fair walk-off stage all around (though "accepted" may still be a battle; I'm 100% convinced it's fair and that smart play renders walk-off camping obsolete as a tactic); BoE is just really character biased. It's something I could really see going either way in the end.

I don't think Corneria was bad in the first place, but this new version does address all serious complaints and is definitely a superior stage so, again, win-win here I think.

 

[JOE!]

the difference in my mind with Mario Circuit is that the middle part becomes a place to avid due to the cars.

Then the sides have even more appeal due to the overhanging platforms, preventing air attacks (for the most part) and the fact that cars come that way too, and with the blast zones so close, a simple well times Uthrow can spell death by car for an opponent...

Mario Circuit naturally promotes hugging the sides if not camping near the actual blast zone...

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

That's only "natural" if you are a novice at the stage though since it's very risky. A simple dash forward to fthrow or a random fair spells your doom in such a position. I have played against Ness, of all characters, a lot on this stage, and I'm appropriately very cautious whenever I get near those walk-offs. It's really very, very risky to camp the walk-offs, and you can only force an approach if you're winning... and thus in a natural position to be averse to risk.

Also, the cars are so telegraphed that you can just stay in the middle and avoid them individually. It's easy even with the least mobile of characters.

 

[HMWii22]

Of course, we just plain don't have the codes now to do much of anything.

Entire project summed up in one sentence?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Entire project summed up in one sentence?

...

Not really. Our overall product is very high quality, and we really couldn't ask for much more in terms of character editing.

 

[HMWii22]

...

Not really. Our overall product is very high quality, and we really couldn't ask for much more in terms of character editing.

Oh, without a doubt. I didn't mean it that way. Best of luck balancing the game without changing the game.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Oh, without a doubt. I didn't mean it that way. Best of luck balancing the game without changing the game.

We were actually going for a maneuver along the lines of "change the game as little as possible other than on the specified parameters we clearly outline in our design philosophy". I guess that's kinda similar to what you're saying except actually possible?

 

[HMWii22]

We were actually going for a maneuver along the lines of "change the game as little as possible other than on the specified parameters we clearly outline in our design philosophy". I guess that's kinda similar to what you're saying except actually possible?

That's more like it, yeah. But I guess "Kinda Sort of A Little Bit Different Brawl" doesn't have as nice of a ring to it.

 

[JOE!]

what theyre doing is making small changes everywhere, that add up to a BIG change.

For example, a simple change to DDD's Dthrow, and Yoshi's Dsmash can effect the ENTIRE cast, and change maybe like 30 matchups

those are 2 adjustments, follow up with something small changed with every character (sans some examples) and you've got balanced brawl

 

[HMWii22]

...a simple change to DDD's Dthrow... can effect the ENTIRE cast, and change maybe like 30 matchups

Yeah. Shame about this though. I bet that would affect the whole cast. But I assume this has already been fixed.

those are 2 adjustments, follow up with something small changed with every character (sans some examples) and you've got balanced brawl

More like somewhat less hideously imbalanced brawl. You can't fix something with duct tape when what it really needs is a wrecking ball. I'd say controls that feel like you're wearing mittens and constant moon-gravity are a bigger issue than character balance (or lack thereof).

But to each their own, and as long as you guys are having fun then... well, keep having fun! I don't mean to troll and I realize I sound pretty passive-aggressive.

 

[Swoops]

More like somewhat less hideously imbalanced brawl. You can't fix something with duct tape when what it really needs is a wrecking ball. I'd say controls that feel like you're wearing mittens and constant moon-gravity are a bigger issue than character balance (or lack thereof).

So basically you don't want Brawl to be Brawl, because you don't like Brawl? Why are you in here then? There's nothing that needs to be fixed about that, it's just your personal preference not to have them.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Yeah. Shame about this though. I bet that would affect the whole cast. But I assume this has already been fixed.

More like somewhat less hideously imbalanced brawl. You can't fix something with duct tape when what it really needs is a wrecking ball. I'd say controls that feel like you're wearing mittens and constant moon-gravity are a bigger issue than character balance (or lack thereof).

But to each their own, and as long as you guys are having fun then... well, keep having fun! I don't mean to troll and I realize I sound pretty passive-aggressive.

1. They fixed that as soon as they got the tools to do so, lol.

2. I disagree with your implied notion that the very physics of Brawl are to blame, as much as it is that some characters were just very poorly designed and implemented (MK, Ganon), and some characters need to be changed more than others in order to implement as much balance as possible (coughGanoncough)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

More like somewhat less hideously imbalanced brawl. You can't fix something with duct tape when what it really needs is a wrecking ball. I'd say controls that feel like you're wearing mittens and constant moon-gravity are a bigger issue than character balance (or lack thereof).

Those would indeed be serious problems. Luckily, they do not apply to Brawl so we do not have to worry about them.

We like Brawl. Thinkaman has won money at standard Brawl tournaments on multiple occasions with... Jigglypuff. When he feels like tier whoring he uses... Ness. It obviously could be better, but it's not like the balance was that bad to start. We were only able to make a product of this sort of quality that we can stand behind with confidence in general because Brawl was such an amazing base to work from. This is perhaps the most important thing I can communicate in this topic.

 

[A2ZOMG]

hmn, what about G&W's low tier good MU's?

I can see Yoshi going even at least with him now due to better KO power, and the ability to out-momentum cancel him

vs Yoshi is probably a 55/45 matchup slightly in G&W's favor. G&W won that matchup by having safer pokes, KO moves, and edgeguarding. Also, it's pretty hard to out-momentum cancel G&W when actually playing against him and getting hit by his KO moves, since his KO power is ridiculously high. Keep in mind, Yoshi's momentum cancel has rather significant commitment, and that G&W is in fact a character who can edgeguard at the blastzone and still recover.

Ganondorf vs G&W is still at least like 65/35 G&W (no longer 7/3 or worse) and it's a bad matchup for the same reasons why it sucked in vBrawl. Ganondorf pretty much can't work around G&W's pokes safely, and G&W's f-air is easily the single most **** attack in the game at gimping bad recoveries like Link and Ganondorf's. The weak hit of F-air is enough to set up edgehogs, and G&W can still KO Ganondorf at like 90% by landing a Smash (which is not very hard against Ganondorf at all if you just bait him).

Vs Link is now probably a pretty close matchup. The matchup was pretty easily in G&W's favor due to Link having a lot more trouble getting the KO (F-smash, Link's most reliable KO move, only KOs at like 110% without optimal DI. Up-B KOs even later in vBrawl). Now that Link's Up-B and F-tilt and arrows are a lot more powerful, he's much better equipped to keep up with G&W's incredible KO and gimping power. He still can't recover against a good G&W, but at least a well-placed Up-B will KO G&W pretty stupidly early.

I haven't played a good Falcon in a while, my guess is that this matchup is still very hard for Falcon due to his KO moves starting up relatively slow and extending his hurtbox a lot. The way this matchup works is that G&W can pretty safely poke Falcon, and it's hard for him to work past those pokes.

Vs Ness has basically not changed at all. The only changes Ness has are on moves that are difficult to land.

Lucas's better spotdodge means he's significantly more likely to be able to deal with G&W's B-air defensively (I mean Falco could sometimes spotdodge G&W's B-air), so he's probably better in the matchup by 5 points.

Vs Sonic...is exactly the same matchup. Add a few% to random dash attacks and stuff, and ultimately Sonic is still terrible at getting the KO, and he can't really do anything to edgeguard G&W.

Vs Mario is still difficult for Mario, although keep in mind, Mario's out of shield game is just fast enough to be able to punish various things G&W would normally consider safe. The increased reward of Jab canceling is something that G&W should be afraid of now, as I'm pretty sure Mario already could Jab cancel D-smash/Grab him pretty reliably.

Vs Samus, honestly, I'm terrible at this matchup. My reaction time is pretty poor, and I don't powershield a lot of projectiles particularly well, and I can imagine this matchup being pretty scary with Samus's buffs. I'm told in high level play, smart use of powershield does shut her down. That probably hasn't changed, but still, I'm pretty darn scared of Samus (since my friend plays her REALLY well). I haven't tested yet, but I bet B-throw/F-throw at like 130% could be a KO move on G&W. The numbers on her B-throw and F-throw are similar to that of vBrawl Mario's B-throw, which in my experience KOs at around that % range.

 

[crifer]

BTW Does BBrawl work with the pal (european) version of brawl???

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

BTW Does BBrawl work with the pal (european) version of brawl???

Yes, but you'll need the Homebrew Channel and Gecko OS 1.9.X. The .gct for the PAL version is labeled as rsbp01.gct.

 

[daisho]

Entire project summed up in one sentence?

Oh, without a doubt. I didn't mean it that way. Best of luck balancing the game without changing the game.

That's more like it, yeah. But I guess "Kinda Sort of A Little Bit Different Brawl" doesn't have as nice of a ring to it.

Yeah. Shame about this though. I bet that would affect the whole cast. But I assume this has already been fixed.

More like somewhat less hideously imbalanced brawl. You can't fix something with duct tape when what it really needs is a wrecking ball. I'd say controls that feel like you're wearing mittens and constant moon-gravity are a bigger issue than character balance (or lack thereof).

But to each their own, and as long as you guys are having fun then... well, keep having fun! I don't mean to troll and I realize I sound pretty passive-aggressive.

Its really too bad that we are making you sit here, read forums for a game you detest, then go to other forums for a game YOU HAVE NEVER PLAYED and worst of all :O COMMENT ON THEM.... OH GOD SAVE YOU!

And about that video... great thing happens if you don't roll into the edge... HE CANT SPIKE YOU! (also that was the previous version now uthrow doesnt spike, but D throw still does).

 

[C.R.Z]

fox needs to be looked at again (Grab game maybe) especially his lazer... it needs an update in someway, whether its lasts infinatly, effects momentum, has very very small stun. just somthing...it needs somthing...

 

[daisho]

fox needs to be looked at again (Grab game maybe) especially his lazer... it needs an update in someway, whether its lasts infinatly, effects momentum, has very very small stun. just somthing...it needs somthing...

uuuummmmm no... foxs laser is already great at racking damage and refreshing moves...

Fox might need something idk because i don't play him but his lasers are fine...

 

[Fenrir VII]

fox needs to be looked at again (Grab game maybe) especially his lazer... it needs an update in someway, whether its lasts infinatly, effects momentum, has very very small stun. just somthing...it needs somthing...

infinitely-ranged laser would be nice, but nah, I actually think Fox is good where he is now.

 

[chic]

i hate luigis fireball speed increase

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Why? It seems like it would be a serious boon for weegee.

 

[blakinola]

If you haven't played Balanced Brawl, you shouldn't be posting with impressions.

You're making yourself look stupid and aren't contributing anything to the forward motion of the project.

Play then comment. It's called constructive criticism, and will make sure when a final release of this codeset is out, it's the best it can me. Stop ****ting up the thread.

I agree that fox's laser should be extended if possible. Since fox doesn't get infinited by a lot of the cast anymore, he should have more favorable matchups.

Luigi needed more projectile pressure--the fireballs are a buff and create pressure and openings for luigi, since a lot of his attacks don't have any range.

edit:
Is there any way you can make ganon do his down b in the air + get his jump back, WITHOUT making him fastfall?

 

[chic]

well my bro and i just got done playing. he mains mario i main luigi. my bro is pretty disapointed with the changes for mario. he was hoping mario would get a better buff... i kinda agree with him.

the changes with luigi doesnt really seem to have any significant effect... fireball speed increase is kinda dumb. the fireball in normal brawl is an extension of luigi not really a projectile that you spam like tls arrow or w/e. it seems like the devs in balanced brawl tried to turn it into that. imo there was no need for fireball "pressure" when luigi has his tornado... but anyway i always thought luigi was fine the way he was in normal brawl so it doesnt make a difference for me.

will be playing in a bbrawl tourny and ill give another opinion then but for now i dont see myself playing bbrawl

 

[Fenrir VII]

he was hoping mario would get a better buff... i kinda agree with him.

Lol this is funny.

 

[ratman19]

Lol this is funny.

lol is that dude mad. he wants an even bigger buff. seems he wants mario to be like the old snake now, what more of a buff does he want mario to have

 

[GwJ]

Mario is already amazing now, I don't see why he would need MORE buffs, he'd be broken.

 

[blakinola]

well my bro and i just got done playing. he mains mario i main luigi. my bro is pretty disapointed with the changes for mario. he was hoping mario would get a better buff... i kinda agree with him.

the changes with luigi doesnt really seem to have any significant effect... fireball speed increase is kinda dumb. the fireball in normal brawl is an extension of luigi not really a projectile that you spam like tls arrow or w/e. it seems like the devs in balanced brawl tried to turn it into that. imo there was no need for fireball "pressure" when luigi has his tornado... but anyway i always thought luigi was fine the way he was in normal brawl so it doesnt make a difference for me.

will be playing in a bbrawl tourny and ill give another opinion then but for now i dont see myself playing bbrawl

Your brother is ridiculous and doesn't see Mario is actually good and viable now. Or is just playing with the controller on the ground while you take stocks away.