Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[ratman19]

Yes, top tier.

Good damage racking
Good edgeguarding
SAFE and GREAT KO moves
Great shield pressure tools

Yes, they're easily top tier in BBrawl.

They always had a relatively solid movepool, but their reward on it was relatively low. Basically those two characters got that problem solved, so now they have everything in their favor.

yup i agree with a2 that mario in fact can be top tier. the only thing which really hindered him was his lack of KO power in vbrawl

 

[A2ZOMG]

Her biggest bonus is that nobody has any experience against Samus, so they play cautiously and get spammed to death. One must take a barbarian's approach. Remember that almost every single one of your moves is safe on block, so put on the pressure. If you space half decently, her only good punisher (Screw attack) will fall short. If she hits you with her jab, just hold A and you're guaranteed to interrupt her jab combo. Her next best bet is a 6 frame dtilt, but as long as you're careful, shielding it and delivering severe punishment isn't particularly difficult. I would put her in the top half of the cast, but would be hesitant to give her a high spot therein in light of this glaring weakness.

D-smash, Dash attack, and F-tilt are good punishers as long as the opponent doesn't use ridiculous frame trap tools. U-tilt is pretty awesome with its range and relatively low ending lag. If anything, I'd say Samus's main problem is having trouble dealing with juggle traps, which can be lessened by going for the edge, and smart use of Bombs and D-air.

Samus's Jab if I recall is safe at higher percents where the knockback is enough to push people out of range. An unimpressive attack for damage dealing, but it can get people away from you.

Samus in vBrawl could really give Snake a run for his money if played super conservatively. The only problem was that Snake lived to like 220% each stock, while Snake usually KOed like 75% earlier. But really, the thing I get about Samus is that the level of skill that you can invest in her is very high, and that most of her weaknesses do have solutions.

From playing against a good Samus, I find her D-tilt relatively hard to punish when it's spaced right. It has great range, isn't all that laggy, and pushes you back a fair bit. Along with her charge shot, it's among the safer KO options available in this game. She also can combo into it in various ways, making it all the more useful.

 

[blakinola]

Mario is super great. You would be crazy to disagree. His upsmash is the new Snake utilt.

He's always been a good character with a great spacing game and good aerials. I wouldn't put him at the very top but he's def top 6 or 7, easily. His actual kill moves make it so it's more apparent.

Partial BBrawl tier list:
Snake
MK
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Sonic

Discuss.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

MK and Snake aren't the best, and Sonic isn't the worst. Discussed.

 

[daisho]

Marios up smash is more similar to foxs up smash than snakes u tilt. I played a fox and we were KOing with up smashes at similar percents.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't think Snake and MK are that high anymore, mainly because they lost the most KO power out of anyone. Marth I believe is better than Snake and MK. He always seemed like in high level play, he went very close with them. He probably beats them now that they don't kill him nearly as early. Yeah, I do believe Snake and MK are ultimately still among the best, but they are no longer clearly the best characters at scoring KOs safely and efficiently. Snake's problem is that he's overly reliant on U-tilt to get kills, and his U-tilt is comparable to vBrawl Mario's U-smash, which is a move that Mario was also overly reliant on to score KOs easily (and of course, Mario was ranked low tier in vBrawl). Metaknight can't kill people until like 145% without getting gimps, which can be done, but isn't easy against everyone.

Sonic I agree is still terrible, and while I'd argue Ganondorf is technically a worse character, I can definitely see Sonic being in the bottom. No reliable ways to KO safely or efficiently.

daisho, you do realize that Fox's Up-smash is stronger than Snake's U-tilt, and that Fox is much lighter than Mario right?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156908 <-Thinkaman's vertikill percents.

BBrawl Mario's U-smash KO's Marth at if I recall, exactly 105% (Marth is slightly lighter than Mario vertically). Snake's U-tilt KOed Mario at 102%.

Mario's U-smash is more comparable in power to Snake's U-tilt (very slightly weaker).

 

[Thinkaman]

This is sort of random, but I'd just like to state that from the very first BBrawl code release, I immediately thought Wario's nerfs were a bit too strong. I even commented on it in the now-locked BBrawl thread. The way it's stated in this thread though, it's as if everybody underestimated Wario's UAir and FSmash nerf.

Well I didn't. Can't say I really enjoyed those changes.

Thanks for speaking up. It's important to always get different impressions stated so that we don't accidentally slip into mob assumptions.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

About the tier list: Why would we be making one right now? I'm curious too, but this is a balanced game so it would be hard to do it at first unlike Brawl where it was obvious about meta-knight and unlike Brawl+ where it's obvious that characters that sucked because everyone could break out of their combos would excell in that game. But this game is truly Balanced, sure there are always tweaks that need to be made, but the match-ups are relatively balanced IMO. So we should let BBrawl act like a good chili and let it cook in it's own awesome juices before we make a tier-list. If we have to do anything for BBrawl I'd say it's potentail MU ratios

Just my input

 

[JOE!]

hold on, why would Sonic be bottom tier again in BBrawl?

He is steak mid tier currently, why would he drop so harshly?



Also, as for the top tier debate:

It shouldnt be exactly "BEST of the BEST" this time around, seeing as the goal is to make the gaps between characters MUCH smaller. Itd be like the range of the best character to worst were MK (top of S) to Kirby (bottom of A)

 

[SaltyKracka]

hold on, why would Sonic be bottom tier again in BBrawl?

He is steak mid tier currently, why would he drop so harshly?



Also, as for the top tier debate:

It shouldnt be exactly "BEST of the BEST" this time around, seeing as the goal is to make the gaps between characters MUCH smaller. Itd be like the range of the best character to worst were MK (top of S) to Kirby (bottom of A)

1. Because Sonic didn't really get a buff asides from the spring, and the spring is easily avoided. However, in comparison to the buffs that his good matchups, bad matchups, and even decent matchups got in BBrawl, Sonic really is almost exactly the same character.

2. If I had to give a range for the actual tiers for this game, I'd have to say that it's something like vMarth (Marth, duh-hurr) to vIke. It's definitely improved, but I'd hardly go so far as to say that even the worst characters (Sonic, Ganon, Zelda, Shiek) are anywhere near the former high tier.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

The range for the tier list I had sent in to AmazingAmpharos was ranged from where vSnake is down to vToon Link. I don't think anyone is as good as MK was, but the highest person I had ranked (Pokemon Trainer) feels as good as Snake was.

Just throwing that in!

 

[A2ZOMG]

hold on, why would Sonic be bottom tier again in BBrawl?

He is steak mid tier currently, why would he drop so harshly?

Because Sonic in the first place wasn't that good.

He has good players representing him for whatever dumb reason. That's the only reason why he's placing higher than characters that are clearly better than him like Mario, Samus, and Sheik.

And because anyway, Sonic didn't actually change much from his original mediocre self. The spring gimp frankly is only good in very specific matchups due to how easily it is outprioritized.

And I love how Salty's impression of the tier gap is exactly the same as mine. vMarth -> vIke lmao.

 

[Crescens]

D-smash, Dash attack, and F-tilt are good punishers as long as the opponent doesn't use ridiculous frame trap tools. U-tilt is pretty awesome with its range and relatively low ending lag. If anything, I'd say Samus's main problem is having trouble dealing with juggle traps, which can be lessened by going for the edge, and smart use of Bombs and D-air.

Ftilt is 9 frames, however, and dash attack is pretty slow as well - that's about as bad as Ganon's jab in terms of speed. Ganon, however, at least has a quick jab (no matter how poor the range is, at least it can punish Ness tilts). ><

Samus's Jab if I recall is safe at higher percents where the knockback is enough to push people out of range. An unimpressive attack for damage dealing, but it can get people away from you.

This is true, but I think you have to be pretty high. DIing towards ol' Sammy might sometimes be a good idea in this situation. There is speculation that the part of the jab closest to Samus has extra knockback allowing Samus to sometimes combo into something; I don't know if this is true. It would be useful if Thinkaman/AA could tell us if Samus' jab has more than one hitbox.

Even at high damages, the jab will only deal 3, and the opponent will be close enough to avoid most of Samus' best spacers.

Samus in vBrawl could really give Snake a run for his money if played super conservatively. The only problem was that Snake lived to like 220% each stock, while Snake usually KOed like 75% earlier. But really, the thing I get about Samus is that the level of skill that you can invest in her is very high, and that most of her weaknesses do have solutions.

Even though the vSnake matchup is 35% or so, I actually agree, and find that number to be rather inaccurate. I would actually expect this to be one of Samus' better matchups in BBrawl. I think it's relatively important to consider the returns on skill investments in vBrawl. Some characters have had very minimal development in their gameplay options in vBrawl due to serious under representation due to their inherent weaknesses. I feel Samus has enough representation for at least some degree (though not enough!) of her potential to be seen (Xyro, Sago, n00b), but a few other characters do not. Lucas has some serious mindgame potential with his elaborate momentum tricks, Yoshi has a pseudo wavedash, and the links (Tink especially) can do some absolutely ridiculous things if you spend enough time in training mode. Even the best Ganon videos posted are pretty poor in regards to certain techniques he can execute to increase his potential. If we can get some peopl to really pick up these characters seriously in BBrawl, we should see some pretty interesting things. Anyways, back to topic:

From playing against a good Samus, I find her D-tilt relatively hard to punish when it's spaced right. It has great range, isn't all that laggy, and pushes you back a fair bit. Along with her charge shot, it's among the safer KO options available in this game. She also can combo into it in various ways, making it all the more useful.

If the Samus is spacing and attacking you - a 6 frame startup for such an immense hitbox, 14 damage and some serious hitstun is going to keep you from hitting back very easily. However, if you're close (as you should always try to be), anyone except Ganon should be able to get in a jab combo on block.

And I love how Salty's impression of the tier gap is exactly the same as mine. vMarth -> vIke lmao.

I think it's hard to justify anyone in BBrawl being that bad. Let's forget your vendetta against Ganon for a moment - then what? Surely, every character below vIke has been boosted well above him. Furthermore, the entirety of D tier received some significant boosts. If we take Ike out too (who I assume you think still sucks), then what? The C tier cast also received some fairly significant boosts, and are obviously better than they used to be. Besides Ike and Ganon (whose new positions are highly contested), I can't see much justification for putting any of the sub-C tier characters lower than C tier in BBrawl.

 

[JOE!]

heres a Q:

how bad are the wosrt BBrawl characters compared to what would be the next stage up?

is it like:

PT, Mario, Samus, Marth, Snake?
-small gap-
Jesus ()
-small gap-
everyone else (and maybe Zelda+Shiek)

-gap-

Sawnik, Ganon, Zelda, Shiek

or are there more defined gaps?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ftilt is 9 frames, however, and dash attack is pretty slow as well - that's about as bad as Ganon's jab in terms of speed. Ganon, however, at least has a quick jab (no matter how poor the range is, at least it can punish Ness tilts). ><

According to what I can tell, Samus's F-tilt is frame 7, which is the same as Marth's F-tilt if I recall, except Samus's has more range. That's honestly quite good. Being able to outrange most disjoints at frame 7, especially after you consider that most attacks usually have ending lag that is in the 20-25 frame range.

DA is frame 8, and has even more reach.

D-smash is a bit slower at frame 9, but still entirely viable most of the time.

Her out of shield game isn't the most threatening, but it's still formidable in terms of options.

As for your question JOE, I believe the gap from the top tier to the bottom tier is comparable to Marth vs Ike on the vBrawl list.

 

[JOE!]

Im not talking about top to bottom disparity, but rather how well bottom tier performs compared to the new...low-mid or even just mid?

 

[Crescens]

According to what I can tell, Samus's F-tilt is frame 7, which is the same as Marth's F-tilt if I recall, except Samus's has more range. That's honestly quite good. Being able to outrange most disjoints at frame 7, especially after you consider that most attacks usually have ending lag that is in the 20-25 frame range.

DA is frame 8, and has even more reach.

D-smash is a bit slower at frame 9, but still entirely viable most of the time.

Her out of shield game isn't the most threatening, but it's still formidable in terms of options.

As for your question JOE, I believe the gap from the top tier to the bottom tier is comparable to Marth vs Ike on the vBrawl list.

Aha- you're right! I suppose I should be incorporating more of the ftilt! It is truly punishable if blocked from close range, though. I do certainly agree that Samus has an amazing moveset - no matter how much I use it, the ridiculous range and disjoint on the ftilt never ceases to surprise me. In 7 frames, too. I do find the DA a pretty moor OOS option, however. If they're too close (which they should be), it sometimes will go right through them before the hitbox comes out. Decent against a few good spacers, but overall not too reliable.

With no grab and 6 frame move being her best punisher, I still do consider her defensive game in the bottom 2. As long as she can stay just far enough away for the ftilt and dtilt to work their magic, it's not too bad. Otherwise, she mostly needs to rely on other styles of gameplay to stay out of such situations and dish up some damage.

Edit: too much editing going on.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Im not talking about top to bottom disparity, but rather how well bottom tier performs compared to the new...low-mid or even just mid?

The new bottom tier in general struggles to have any matchups in their favor, much like in vBrawl, but at least there are fewer matchups that are 7/3 or worse. That's my immediate impression. Well on the other hand...a few bad matchups like Ganon vs Samus in fact DID get worse.

I think it's hard to justify anyone in BBrawl being that bad. Let's forget your vendetta against Ganon for a moment - then what? Surely, every character below vIke has been boosted well above him. Furthermore, the entirety of D tier received some significant boosts. If we take Ike out too (who I assume you think still sucks), then what? The C tier cast also received some fairly significant boosts, and are obviously better than they used to be. Besides Ike and Ganon (whose new positions are highly contested), I can't see much justification for putting any of the sub-C tier characters lower than C tier in BBrawl.

Let's assume for a moment that Ike actually was as good as his tier position. Ganondorf would be much like that guy fundamentally. He's strong, easily gimped, and easily camped to death.

Well actually, I'd say Ganondorf is currently slightly better than vIke just because Ike was pretty fricken terrible.

Sonic isn't C tier material in the first place. He was D tier material, and got extremely minor improvements, so he's not very impressive either.

Ness and Lucas were D tier at best, and also got rather minor improvements that don't really address fundamental movepool problems. Still not very impressive at all.

If anything, the balance is definitely better. It's still not all that good, but eh.

 

[Pierce7d]

Alright, so the good news is that using my Homebrew Channel, I am able to get this to work quite well. The bad news is that I can't seem to load it with the custom stage exploit. Someone please point me in the right direction?

 

[daisho]

daisho, you do realize that Fox's Up-smash is stronger than Snake's U-tilt, and that Fox is much lighter than Mario right?

Meh I was also talking about range and the way you use it, like you can do running up smashes for kills. Snakes u tilt was pretty much only to predict approaches and to punish. Foxs up smash was a bit stronger I agree. And no I did not know fox is lighter than Mario thanks for telling me

 

[Crescens]

Ganondorf in BBrawl is just like vIke. He's strong, but easily gimped and camped to death. Ike in BBrawl is strong, and easily camped to death.

Sonic isn't C tier material in the first place. He was D tier material, and got extremely minor improvements, so he's not very impressive either.

Ness and Lucas were D tier at best, and also got rather minor improvements that don't really address fundamental movepool problems.

Though Sonic wasn't boosted enough, I would be hesitant to put him in D tier - even if only by merit of his spring giving him a serious advantage in a the select few matchups where it does best (thus potentially putting him in C tier). Though, I do agree that he is profoundly overrated in vBrawl due to his hefty pool of competent mains.

Ness and Lucas were actually E tier in vBrawl, but even just the removal of chaingrabs/releases is an immense boost to them. Though I can't necessarily support your opinions on the kids (I actually would consider them top half), I'm not going to try to argue it in light of the extent to which you have already done so. I do feel, however, that the way they move is like an infuriating fly - they're quite hard to swat when spacing properly with their aerials.

Same deal with those beastly heavies, actually, so I won't argue this much either. I will actually suggest that heavyweights simply might not conform to the way you play. I say this with absolutely no intent of insulting your abilities - whether right or wrong, I'm just proposing the thought. In the few matches you can find floating around youtube, there are a few great examples of what Ganon/Ike do against even the best of players when in the right hands. One such video was posted here just a bit earlier. A Ganon losing to Ally only due to a ridiculously silly mistake on the last stock is an impressive feat and should be treated as a highly valued piece of evidence. The second match, I suppose he was nervous or discouraged from the first- he was blatantly sloppy and impatient. It takes a certain type of style to play these two - Ganon especially. I can't really do well with him until I've played about 5 consecutive matches; only then am I in the zone of ridiculous patience where the king of destruction thrives.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Meh I was also talking about range and the way you use it, like you can do running up smashes for kills. Snakes u tilt was pretty much only to predict approaches and to punish. Foxs up smash was a bit stronger I agree. And no I did not know fox is lighter than Mario thanks for telling me

The best way to use Snake's U-tilt and Mario's U-smash is out of shield. Especially Snake's U-tilt, they both have pretty good range to the side (in Mario's case, it's behind him where it has the most range).

and lol Crescens, people have actually said that I main Ganondorf due to how many videos of him I have on my YT channel.

I'm just being incredibly emo about him ever since Captain Falcon's Up-B was buffed to do a million damage.

 

[NO-IDea]

Way to discuss Samus without me people =.=

Yes, her main problems were her close range game, but, putting enough time into her helps you mitigate that problem as well. As stated, f-tilt is a great OoS punisher on frame 7, d-tilt on frame 6 (although I'm rather conservative in my d-tilt usage.) Her jab is easily interrupted, but jab cancel combos still come and go rather successfully (responding in 11 frames can be hard if you don't expect it.)

Opponents shield dashing their way through does become a problem, but again, this is mitigated through missile canceling-->throw/z-air to mix up the timings. Albeit, it doesn't fully negate the problem, and most times retreated f-air cancels or simply shield pressuring with d-airs are used instead. Or my favorite, slowly backing onto the ledge and using her impressive ledge game.

Regardless, the fact that many characters have to rely on ground approaches in this match-up already hinders them in many ways. Aerial approaches can be spaced and punished accordingly with only few exceptions to the rule (Marth and MK.) Otherwise, it's not too hard to space with z-air and OoS options from an aerial approach (throw, up+b, f-tilt, z-air are all acceptable responses.)

The only thing that held Samus back was KO power. If there were match-ups that'd I'd be afraid of (as in the MU is clearly not in my favor or just barely even, with me having to know extensive knowledge of the MU to win), it'd be along the lines of MK, Kirby, Wario, Sonic, Peach (although I'm not sure if Samus's new buffs would pull the MU in her favor now,) Marth, Falco, Wolf, Diddy and G&W.

What all these characters have in common are either safe aerial approaches or amazing ground games. All others, who while still may have one of these two advantages, often fall prey to trading hits and later, getting gimped (trading hits falls into Samus's favor in most match-ups. The occasional safe camping only furthers any percentage/stock advantage Samus may get) or simply getting outcamped.

I never found a problem facing Snakes in vBrawl. If I were to rate the MU, it would be 60-40 Snake's favor, but Snake really having to fight with all his advantages to win. Like literally, out of ten matches, Snake would only come out by maybe 2 or less, not more. Therefore, in bBrawl, I expect the match-up to be in Samus's favor... probably 60-40 with u-tilt being buffed (Samus is heavy to survive most of his other killing moves at high percentages) and her f-smash at medium percentages spelling out GIMP.

 

[Crescens]

Way to discuss Samus without me people =.=

Yes, her main problems were her close range game, but, putting enough time into her helps you mitigate that problem as well. As stated, f-tilt is a great OoS punisher on frame 7, d-tilt on frame 6 (although I'm rather conservative in my d-tilt usage.) Her jab is easily interrupted, but jab cancel combos still come and go rather successfully (responding in 11 frames can be hard if you don't expect it.)

Is 11 frames what it takes for a jab cancel?

Other than that - would you agree with A2 (the ninja) in that Samus is one of the top few in BBrawl?

Also, I should probably point out that we're all wrong and complete idiots for pretending we have half a clue where anybody remotely belongs at this point.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Also, I should probably point out that we're all wrong and complete idiots for pretending we have half a clue where anybody remotely belongs at this point.

We can still try. We do know what weaknesses and strengths characters have from vBrawl, so the best way to put this in perspective is to weigh how changes affect a character's strengths and weaknesses.

Aside from making this more tournament popular of course.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Same deal with those beastly heavies, actually, so I won't argue this much either. I will actually suggest that heavyweights simply might not conform to the way you play. I say this with absolutely no intent of insulting your abilities - whether right or wrong, I'm just proposing the thought. In the few matches you can find floating around youtube, there are a few great examples of what Ganon/Ike do against even the best of players when in the right hands. One such video was posted here just a bit earlier. A Ganon losing to Ally only due to a ridiculously silly mistake on the last stock is an impressive feat and should be treated as a highly valued piece of evidence. The second match, I suppose he was nervous or discouraged from the first- he was blatantly sloppy and impatient. It takes a certain type of style to play these two - Ganon especially. I can't really do well with him until I've played about 5 consecutive matches; only then am I in the zone of ridiculous patience where the king of destruction thrives.

While I agree with you that Ike is better than A2Z claims he is, especially considering the kind of playstyle necessary for him, I'm actually the one where he got his theory of Ganondorf's current game from.

It's like this. Yes, Ganondorf punishes. Yes, he punishes heavily when he gets a chance. However, the thing about Ganondorf is that while he can punish, he can't punish everybody, and some of those that he can punish can get off basically scot free (I'm looking at you, Falco and Marth). Furthermore, quite a few characters just shut his punishing game down entirely, and when you consider that's about all he has, it's really kind of pathetic. For the moment, let's go with what I just said about punishing being his only game. Humans make mistakes. This is true, and it is the only thing keeping Ganondorf afloat right now. The fact of the matter is, though, if your character, no matter how good they might be at it, relies entirely on your opponent messing up, this is simply fodder for bottom tier. If you, as a player, have to be so much better than your opponent that you KNOW what they are going to do beforehand in order to win, then your character is bottom tier.

Capiche?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'd like someone to tell me who Ike clearly has the advantage on and why. Ganondorf is a given of course since Ike's Jab and F-air obviously make him better. And then....who else?

 

[JOE!]

We can still try. We do know what weaknesses and strengths characters have from vBrawl, so the best way to put this in perspective is to weigh how changes affect a character's strengths and weaknesses.

Aside from making this more tournament popular of course.

truth, we can still make an estimate of who would be around where....


best examples are of how we established who some of the worse-off characters are (would be near bottom) and how MK isnt top anymore.



on another note, anyone up for WiFi?

 

[SaltyKracka]

I'd like someone to tell me who Ike clearly has the advantage on and why. Ganondorf is a given of course since Ike's Jab and F-air obviously make him better. And then....who else?

Really, the thing about Ike is not so much that he absolutely beats any character (aside from heavyweights) as much as it is that he goes at or near even with those characters that he doesn't outright lose to, much like a lesser version of Marth.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Really, the thing about Ike is not so much that he absolutely beats any character (aside from heavyweights) as much as it is that he goes at or near even with those characters that he doesn't outright lose to, much like a lesser version of Marth.

Which heavyweights not named Ganondorf?

I'd guess Yoshi maybe...since he doesn't have a particularly good out of shield game...

 

[JOE!]

....yoshi can combo Ike to hell and back though, and has a projectile that can attack ike from just about anywhere offstage and interrupt Aether...

 

[Crescens]

Ike is not a character that has very many mains - his options are ridiculously underdeveloped as a result. Noobs gravitate towards him - he has a jab that makes the game endlessly boring, and can perform at a 'competent' level just by spamming it. Naturally, this is the only thing that is really ever seen of him - and the only time it ever works is when we get annoyed at how stupid and boring it makes the game. Unfortunately, this makes it rather hard to make any sort of accurate judgments about how his matchups are - of course they all suck when you play like that. Though I can't say that Ike is anything other than bottom tier in the way he's generally seen played, I still maintain he has a significant amount of untapped potential.

If one learns to play like with as much agility as possible, he has some very reliable options. Notice in the videos how difficult a well spaced nair/bair. The first video is against quite a competent Peach player. The fact that Ike won is not a fact to be taken lightly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQucEbrElok
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDcq1Rp02Eg - The marth wasn't terrible.

Imagine how much NinjaLink would appreciate the quickdraw buff.

I suppose I don't have much to say about Ike - he's really my pet-peeve match-up. I suck against him more than I have any reason to, even if it's just due to the tedium and impatience that comes with dealing with the traditional "campy" (lol, no wonder he sucks) style.

 

[A2ZOMG]

....yoshi can combo Ike to hell and back though, and has a projectile that can attack ike from just about anywhere offstage and interrupt Aether...

Well that's too bad for Ike huh?

I really don't see what gives him the advantage against most other heavyweights. Snake camps him too and can F-tilt him all day on block, not to mention the Nikita is still pretty lame on Ike's recovery. Bowser's Up-B is pretty lame for Ike to negotiate with. Hmmm, I dunno about Donkey Kong. King DDD, Link, and ROB's shieldgrab are all things that Ike does not like dealing with...

 

[SaltyKracka]

Well that's too bad for Ike huh?

I really don't see what gives him the advantage against most other heavyweights. Snake camps him too and can F-tilt him all day on block, not to mention the Nikita is still pretty lame on Ike's recovery. Bowser's Up-B is pretty lame for Ike to negotiate with. Hmmm, I dunno about Donkey Kong. King DDD, Link, and ROB's shieldgrab are all things that Ike does not like dealing with...

Ike can deal with Bowser by various means. Including crossup nairs to jab canceling. Come to think of it, Jab canceling pretty much ***** Link. King DDD was always one of Ike's worse MUs, but it's gotten better in BBrawl. As for ROB, spacing was always the key to avoid getting dsmashed.

 

[Fox Hater]

samus vids please

 

[JOE!]

samus vids please

here's one

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ike can deal with Bowser by various means. Including crossup nairs to jab canceling.

Jab cancels and crossups don't really bypass invul frames and a high priority lingering hitbox known as Bowser's Up-B (which does 18% in BBrawl by the way, more than Ike's Jab combo).

Come to think of it, Jab canceling pretty much ***** Link.

That's only if you get in his range in the first place while he's camping with Bombs, his ridiculously improved Arrows, and his relatively safe F-smash. Oh and Z-air. Your approach is already quite limited by his Up-B and shieldgrab which cover most of the approach options Ike has. Anything that Ike tries to retreat can be retaliated with camping.

As for ROB, spacing was always the key to avoid getting dsmashed.

It's not ROB's D-smash that's an issue, and it's probably less useful in this particular matchup. Tilts, and shieldgrab (not to mention camping) can easily handle most of Ike's options.

Ike can at least be glad that he no longer is easily regrabbed upon landing after being thrown upwards by ROB. If you had good reaction, almost any character could easily do this to Ike (ESPECIALLY on FD) due to how terrible he was at dealing with juggling (easily the worst character in vBrawl at dealing with juggle traps). It's almost as bad as being chaingrabbed.

 

[Pierce7d]

I think DK does worse at dealing with juggle traps. Also, due to his grab release infinite on Wario, ability to zone Wario, and ability to kill Wario, one might argue that Ike has a positive MU vs. Wario. His jab really shines in this MU, and he's able to grab or pivot grab Wario. Ike's aerials really pay off for him here as well.

 

[blakinola]

I think DK does worse at dealing with juggle traps. Also, due to his grab release infinite on Wario, ability to zone Wario, and ability to kill Wario, one might argue that Ike has a positive MU vs. Wario. His jab really shines in this MU, and he's able to grab or pivot grab Wario. Ike's aerials really pay off for him here as well.

Agreed. With the nerf to Fsmash and Uair for Wario--it increases Ike's survivability.

Whenever I play against Ike, I spam spinning kong and abuse down B--cause Ike's air game blows. While Ike's matchups have improved--he will still ultimately fall victim to low percent gimps and low-angles stage knockoffs.

I've never liked Ike's jab cancel shenanigans--but it allows him to go the distance in unfavorable matchups.

 

[Fenrir VII]

The removal of all of Fox's hardest matchups, and his solid base as a character normally, really does give him a buff... I would say that the creators did a good job of placing him around Diddy's level, if not just under.



So how likely is this to become tournament standard, given that players don't need the HBC to play this?