Every character has an option that beats every one of Ganondorf's options. Even Ganondorf can do this to himself. Shield, and spotdodge if he starts up Flame Choke/Dashgrab. If he does any moves in this situation and his opponent knows how to react, he's screwed.
And you would be surprised how much this "theorycrafting" actually applies. Has anyone played someone on the level of teh_spammerer? I bet not. I've seen what a good player can do to Ganondorf. It's the most depressing thing ever.
Haha, yeah. I once faced this good Ganon in friendlies, and I didn't camp or play gay, so the matches were fun. Then he asked me to try . . .
. I have played Spam (we're friends), but not with Ganon.
I'm gonna have to agree with A2Z...Even with Ganon's buffs, he's still kind of a pushover, even though he can murder people better.
The problem I find worst is that the dtilt trip isn't guaranteed after the flame choke--some characters don't even have to buffer the **** roll to anticipate the next move. Techchasing doesn't play as well as it could. I played against a lot of mario vs ganon and his speed is his most limiting trait. He's a limbering oafy tower who is hard to maneuver around.
Ganon falls victim to disjointed hitboxes, extended hitboxes on attacks (DK's ftilt comes to mind) and character mobility greater than his.
So he has good matchups against...physically larger characters. And they aren't even amazing matchups.
As for the Zelda business:
If Zelda ever comes from below with up+B against anyone with half a nervous system, then she only has one place to go--and that's the bottom blastzone.
Ganon has good range, he doesn't even mind disjointedness that much. He falls prey to pokes and mobility, because he has no mobility of his own, AND no fast moves.
Ganon's has options other than attacking.
Also, ganon could shield instead of dash grab... and follow up with an attack after the invincibility frames end... so that option fails... or just usmash.
Ganon's opponent can safely poke him indefinitely. Ganon can never safely attack his opponent. He loses terribly. It's very simple.
This... is the case for every character.
NO! Are you even listening to what we're saying. As Marth, I don't have to read my opponent ALL the time or make a mistake. I can just swing with a safe approach move at them. I'm not trying to read your actions when I use Marth's Fair at you. I'm not worried about you reading my obvious Fair. The POINT is that it's SAFE to do. Ganon has NO moves like this. He also does not have speed to compensate.
Knowing how to react does not instantly screw over every character, it just keeps YOU out of the fire. If Falco shoots a laser at you and it's auto-canceled into the ground, most players would say power shielding is the best way to react as most characters. That doesn't at all make Falco screwed. If Mario throws a fireball at you, HELL IF ZELDA USES DIN'S FIRE just halfway across the stage, if Mario jabs the back of your shield, if Olimar throws a pivot grab, if Diddy throws a banana, if MK Dairs overhead, if Snake uses spaced first hit ftilt on the back, or even front (character dependant) of your shield . . . the list goes on and on and on. There are many moves and situations where it doesn't matter whatsoever if you know how to react. The fact is, other characters have mix-ups and safe options, or pseudo safe options. An example of a psuedo safe option is the first hit of Marth's Dancing Blade fully spaced. Most characters cannot grab it and you cannot safely drop your shield, because Marth can continue his Dancing Blade which will beat ALL of your options from shield. Therefore, Marth can poke with Dancing Blade, and then retreat if it hits a shield.
Ganondorf cannot poke, nor retaliate. Therefore, he is abysmal garbage on paper. In actual play, people make mistakes, and he gets huge rewards off these mistakes, so he seems okay, but he's not by any means viable in competative play. The only real way to fix this without modifying his movement data or hitbox speed would be to give him so great of a reward of you making a mistake, that he would likely remove a stock. Essentially, he would need to be able to start a combo that goes from 0-80, very, very few questions asked. In this regard, he would then be like vBrawl Ice-Climbers, but he STILL doesn't even have their tools or mobility, so he wouldn't be broken, just viable.
Making Ganon super cool, didn't make his super good. If you use Utilt, you're still going to get hit. Nobody should EVER get hit by Ganon's UpB if they're not making a mistake. Flame choke does not work unless you are punishing your opponent.
I guess Ganon can be considered viable with tripping, since he can follow up a trip and deal massive damage.
Don't recover low... as Zelda.
QFT
the problem with ganondorf as a whole is that his natural attributes make him very easy to overcome in a match.
he actually needs to work by catching an opponent off a mistake, or just off-gaurd. No other character needs to rely on opponent action to control the match..
Even Falcon and Link (vBrawl) had ways of turning the match in their favor either by Camping, Pressure or even Combos to force THE OPPONENT to act.
Ganon has to rely on READING the opponent completley, and has no real way of controlling the battle naturally like Link or Falcon do. He IS the controlled opponent 90% of the time.
Ganon is like the guy with the knife in a gun fight: he only has a chance if the guy with the gun jams or runs out of ammo, but even then it is iffy
QFT
I really want to play you sometime, with the stipulation that you can only do anything after blocking or spotdodging an attack.
Anyhow, I just did some frame-by-frame analysis. Against Snake, Ganon's d-tilt is safe on block at max range. (Was trying to punish with a frame perfect dash attack)
Fun trivia: A fully shielded u-tilt, including PSing the first hit, will break a shield. Not important, don't get me wrong... but pretty funny.
I'm glad Ganon has a psuedo-poke, but his mobility doesn't allow him to use it to that extent. Also, Ganon cannot do anything to follow up this dtilt if blocked. An opponent can still just react to whatever he does after that, and always remain safe.
What you are basically saying... is that Ganon interacts with his opponent... as every character does.
No, what he's saying is that every character in the game can either approach or camp. Ganon cannot do either. Therefore, he just waits until you make a mistake. This is barely considered interacting, and whether it is or isn't is off-topic. Ganon just fails.
Every character has ways... of turning the match in their favor.
No, there is nothing Ganon can do to quite a few characters. He has an abundance of 100-0 MUs in vBrawl. He has many 90-10s. He has many 80-20s. In this game, that has not changed much. Some MUs are probably HARDER.
It's not that hard... completely is an unnecessary word... reads are either correct... or incorrect. There is no... middle ground.
The point he was trying to make is that he's reliant on it, whereas other characters are not.
i have, he is definatley much better, and his bufffs fit his rather unique attribute of "imma kill ya if i get ya" style of taking advantage of mistakes
EDIT @ numbers guy:
1) why, do you talk....like william shatner? (
)
What I am saying is, that ganon is so slow and laggy, that pretty much every character in the game can "sandbag" him, meaning just walk all over him as long as they are on their game.
Ganon has no way to really do this to other characters, UNLESS they mess up, and fall into a trap of ganon's (get caught in a choke combo or such) no other character has to RELY SO HEAVILY on opponent mistakes to get the lead.
QFT. To be honest, I wouldn't mind it very much if Ganon remained an inviable character the way he is now. I think that he's still fun enough as is to play with.
I loathe playing Ganon so forgive me if I'm mistaken, but isn't his D-Tilt a poke? It certainly looks like one. A quick glance at frame data shows that it isn't too bad compared to other pokes frame-wise; plus, the reach of the hitbox seems quite good.
Can a properly spaced D-Tilt on shield be punished by most characters? Just looking at the numbers and guessing based on my estimates of the hitbox, D-Tilt looks like an acceptable, although certainly not extraordinary, poke.
Edit: For anyone not familiar with traditional fighter terminology:
Edit again:
So it is a poke then. If Ganon has a poke, why are people complaining about his shield pressure? Poke == Shield pressure.
Because Ganon cannot actually make use of this poke. It is not fast enough, nor can he set-up often enough for this to be enough. Usmash -> dtilt is a reasonable approach, and then mixing up Dash Attack and Dash Grab is the crux of Ganon's approach, but it gets stuffed if someone just jumps after the Usmash. Now, Ganon can mix in Uair, but he still fails because he's too SLOW. You can also punish Usmash by hitting Ganon first. Once he loses this extremely brief and poor window of opportunity, his opponent is unlikely to make it easy for him to regain this poor advantage.
