Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Big O]

Want to have some games with me Swoops?

 

[Crescens]

There is a chat room that's likely your best bet in terms of finding Wifi BBrawl matches.

irc://irc.synirc.net/#smash

 

[Swoops]

Want to have some games with me Swoops?

Well of course I would.

 

[NO-IDea]

Just to be clear one more time on the Ganon side+b... the opponent has three options when getting caught

Stay there and wait-->Ganondorf follows up with d-tilt
Roll away--->Ganondorf follows up with side+b
Roll behind->Ganondorf follows up with aerial down+b

And I'm not sure (wii isn't on me) but can't they also attack on get-up from Ganon's side+b? If so, then:

Attack--->Ganondorf shields? Or will the d-tilt hit before a get-up attack?

Regardless, three to four scenarios. It's fairly simple to mind game a way out... this is directed to all those who think tech chasing is easy. It's harder than you think. I mean, sure, Ganon's tech chases are simpler than Snake's or G&W's... nevertheless you won't always follow-up correctly. It's a mix of prediction and reaction, but prediction in itself already leaves the scenario in the fickle hands of Lady Luck. Mathematically speaking, if only three scenarios, you've got 1/3 chance of following up correctly, and if you follow-up with side+b, again you have to face the 1/3 chance scenario.

 

[Thinkaman]

:/ am i being ignored here :/ or are you discussing something else?

the moment PAL smash stack is out, it will be posted here, including the OP.

Is there a chance that a tier list will be released for BBrawl ?

This is an interesting idea. Perhaps we should discuss which characters we think are better than others. That could prove interesting.

 

[Swoops]

I meant after the Gerudo>d-tilt. That part is guaranteed on a large portion of the cast. The only way to get out of another gerudo after the d-tilt trip is to roll behind. Which means out of four options, 3 get hit again with Gerudo, while the other one is punishable by stomp, f-smash, or wizkick bury and then stomp or f-smash.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

It doesn't take a brain to know that Ness has essentially the worst range in this game

...

However he doesn't have Mario's excellent speed to counterbalance this.

...

Nothing stands out about Ness except for his KO power.

*facepalm*

 

[PKNintendo]

To all over the place.
And

Welcome to my battle.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ness's range is decidedly above average other than on his tilts

Completely false.

His Smashes and aerials all have below average range. His F-air only has good range on retreat. Sure, you can say it's disjointed, but characters with more range can simply trade hits with it. Whenever I play Ganondorf vs Ness, I F-tilt whenever he jumps in close range. Always trades with his F-air.

The actual worst range in the game obviously belongs to Wario, and second and third place are probably Luigi and Sonic in that order.

Wario's Jab, Grab, F-tilt, Down-B, and Forward-B all have good range. Most importantly, Wario's ending lag on key moves is stupidly low and his mobility is extremely high.

Luigi has more range than Ness except on Smashes and D-air and grab.

Sonic's range is average. His F-tilt, D-tilt, B-air, U-air, and F-smash have decent range. Better range than anything Ness has for that matter.

You forgot to mention Jigglypuff anyway, who also has really low range.

I really don't think Ganondorf can be point by point compared with other characters effectively. He's just too different, and in any case, you are going to end up with large positives and negatives of unclear comparative value to judge between.

Any character in BBrawl can rack up damage quickly and KO decently early (except for like Sonic for the most part, who still can't kill). You managed to accomplish that much.

The question is, how safely can they do it?

If you're going to give me the whole "extremes" bull****, I could point out how Iron Tager in BlazBlue can absolutely destroy anyone once he manages to get in range safely (not an exaggeration at all, with his great combos and top notch damage output). Yet he's obviously the worst character in the game since he has no safe attacks and is forced to block camp against most projectile users that know how to space outside of Sledge, and because he has to play on screwups ultimately.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

You really are just factually wrong about the range here, but this isn't an argument worth having. There's really nothing to argue other than pointing out the fact that you're simply wrong.

I could point out Zangief in Street Fighter IV who is kinda similar to this archtype... except instead of being bad he's #2 in the game. It's seriously not easy to predict the value of these types of characters.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You really are just factually wrong about the range here, but this isn't an argument worth having. There's really nothing to argue other than pointing out the fact that you're simply wrong.

You on the other hand are mixing up disjointedness with actual range, and actual range (combined with speed) 80% of the time matters more. Unless you're G&W, who's actual range and disjointedness (and lack of ending lag) is good enough to the point that the spacing required for longer ranged moves to beat him is ridiculous if it even exists.

I've actually tested ranges of several moves. As far as I can tell, you're just making blind assumptions from positive experiences from winning random matches with this character. <_<

And in other news, I have replays up on youtube of me against Big O.

 

[Linkshot]

Zangief doesn't have stages to work around.

But I side with AA that Ganondorf is a brutal force.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Now off-topic...

All vs Big O's Ganondorf:

Mario
G&W
Bowser
Ganondorf
Luigi
R.O.B.

Comments and critique is appreciated of course.

 

[18.15.2.15x12.9.14.11]

Those Snake v Link videos provided earlier... the Snakes were horrible.

But... they weren't horrible. -.-

And before you start criticizing me that Japan players play different and they're top notch, did you bother watching the videos closely? The link was outplaying him the Snake on all levels. Simple, repeated mistakes doesn't make a good Snake main, let alone a good player. I could understand if you wanted to relate play styles of Fox between the two countries, but for Snake, tacking on unnecessary damage (not referring to trading blows) isn't a play style and is altogether a stupid idea.

And the Links repeated mistakes too, in fact everyone repeats mistakes... everyone takes unnecessary damage... and I don't see how the Link was outplaying the Snake at all levels either... it's way too vague... -.-

We refer to high-level U.S. Snakes because our metagame for Snake is farther than theirs. It's very noticeable when watching their gameplay. With that said, there is still no proof that Link has a clear advantage in the match-up. Conversely, many could argue that Snake has a clear advantage, and the argument makes sense. Of course, by clear advantage, I mean it's not 50-50, but not a huge advantage to say it's over 60-40.

And I don't really think U.S. snakes are better than Japan snakes at all. Maybe Ally, but he's not even American, lol. The noticeability you mentioned is simply not noticeable to me. Maybe if you posted some videos of U.S. Snakes playing a lot better than the ones I posted, so I could see where you're referring to...

 

[MorpheusVGX]

I mentioned Balanced Brawl to a group of new friends who play vBrawl a lot, and when they heard Balance, they were interested immediately. My fear is what I've been addressing tons of times... It seems as if no one is playing Balanced Brawl. Where is the community? here in this thread? Where are the videos of people playing Balanced Brawl? Wifi Matches, offline matches? Small tourneys? Wifi tourneys? There are just videos of test matches... ¬¬
It does not matter if people like the idea of Balanced Brawl if it seems like a "whim of a few" hack. Why would I learn something no one else is playing? Will this grow someday? Where are the people? There isn't a single youtube video on a match played with the Standard Release... that is sad.. Mass attracts mass and the already existing mass which supports BBrawl is invisible and seems non-existent. Better start doing something or BBrawl will fall and fail.
I am sorry if I insist too much on this .. but I am worried and I can't do much about this and you can probably help.

 

[Big O]

Lol look 2 posts above yours. I'm not saying that your other points are invalid though.

 

[Eyada]

As soon as my job search settles down (probably this week; it's looking like I finally landed a good one), I'm planning on trying to get BBrawl into Utah's competitive scene. We're a small state, but the players are good.

It would definitely be helpful if more high-level, well known players were involved in this. Mew2King posted once in the Public Preview thread, but I haven't seen anything from him since. Does anyone know if he is interested in trying it out? An endorsement from someone of his caliber would be a Godsend.

Edit: Also, more people should join the BBrawl group. Located here.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

I mentioned Balanced Brawl to a group of new friends who play vBrawl a lot, and when they heard Balance, they were interested immediately. My fear is what I've been addressing tons of times... It seems as if no one is playing Balanced Brawl. Where is the community? here in this thread? Where are the videos of people playing Balanced Brawl? Wifi Matches, offline matches? Small tourneys? Wifi tourneys? There are just videos of test matches... ¬¬
It does not matter if people like the idea of Balanced Brawl if it seems like a "whim of a few" hack. Why would I learn something no one else is playing? Will this grow someday? Where are the people? There isn't a single youtube video on a match played with the Standard Release... that is sad.. Mass attracts mass and the already existing mass which supports BBrawl is invisible and seems non-existent. Better start doing something or BBrawl will fall and fail.
I am sorry if I insist too much on this .. but I am worried and I can't do much about this and you can probably help.

I wouldn't worry too much. This game just needs a few good tournaments and then it'll really catch on.

Oh btw, still waiting for a short response to my other post.

Spoiler

Yeah I get ignored a lot

 

[ぱみゅ]

someone else had trouble at loading?
I use Cheat Manager first, so, I tried with only File Replacement and some minor codes (not BB) and it worked fine; also, I've played the default BBrawl as well (with no texture patch). But whenever I try to play BBrawl with file replacement, when it says "SD Files fould, Applying", it looks to last forever (we waited for almost an hour and nothing happened). Any guess?

BTW I have not an own wii, I can't try anything else until, at least, tomorrow...

 

[SaltyKracka]

I meant after the Gerudo>d-tilt. That part is guaranteed on a large portion of the cast. The only way to get out of another gerudo after the d-tilt trip is to roll behind. Which means out of four options, 3 get hit again with Gerudo, while the other one is punishable by stomp, f-smash, or wizkick bury and then stomp or f-smash.

However, those that DON'T have a guaranteed dtilt on them are the ones that mostly ***** us already and still do (Falco, Marth come to mind). And even then, there's no guarantee that we'll hit them with Gerudo even if they do roll outwards. I've seen it happen that even a buffered Gerudo can't catch a Mario or a DDD in an outwards roll.

I could point out Zangief in Street Fighter IV who is kinda similar to this archtype... except instead of being bad he's #2 in the game. It's seriously not easy to predict the value of these types of characters.

That whole thing totally falls apart for several reasons. First, and most obvious, is that in SFIV, it's basically impossible for any character to camp continuously. Second, is that even if a character camps, preventing approaches is very difficult. Third, SFIV is a game where combos can happen off of the lightest and fastest hits.

Now on to Zangeif if particular. Fourth, Zangeif deals out much more damage on ALL of his attacks, and takes much less than any other character in the cast, much like Sagat, who, as I remember, is ALSO top tier. Fifth, as mentioned above, Zangief actually has fast moves that he can create combos out of, and are safe on block. Sixth, the moves that Zangief has that bypass blocking? They have lots of range, infinite priority, startup practically instantly, and do a TON of damage. Seventh, he has ways to approach, such as moves that give him invincibility, or moves with armor frames, or even moves that move him forward and allow him to destroy projectiles.

Now, tell me again why Ganondorf is so good in BBrawl?

 

[GwJ]

Is there a list of those that have a guaranteed Dtilt followup?

 

[SaltyKracka]

Is there a list of those that have a guaranteed Dtilt followup?

Yeah, on the Ganon boards.

 

[JOE!]

hey A2, how was the lag for you and Big O? ;ast nite we had some silly delay playing

 

[A2ZOMG]

Surprisingly enough, the lag between us was not that bad for the most part even though I'm betting on a college dorm internet connection.

It was enough to cause some minor dumb spacing mistakes like a suicide when I was G&W and edgeguarding Big O, but otherwise nothing serious, and I'm betting Big O was probably having more problems working around projectiles otherwise.

 

[JOE!]

I kept having actual move imput delay, liek I'd dodge, then after about half a second I'd roll instead of spot dodge o.O


EDIT:

owait, you're not facing him on the opposite side of the country

 

[Big O]

In my games with Joe! I had to rely on the neighbor's internet and late at night their connection goes haywire. For my matches with A2Z I used my wired LAN setup. The first few matches were pretty laggy though. My games with Swoops and Daisho were pretty smooth overall. Lol it lagged less with daisho (he's from NJ) than it did with A2Z (from Cali like me) despite me using the neighbor's wifi. Brawl's online is pretty fickle lol.

 

[Swoops]

However, those that DON'T have a guaranteed dtilt on them are the ones that mostly ***** us already and still do (Falco, Marth come to mind). And even then, there's no guarantee that we'll hit them with Gerudo even if they do roll outwards. I've seen it happen that even a buffered Gerudo can't catch a Mario or a DDD in an outwards roll.

Now, tell me again why Ganondorf is so good in BBrawl?

You're forgetting that those **** match ups, and the people we still can't d-tilt, were changed so that the match ups definitely aren't **** anymore. Did you completely forget that Falco no longer has a chain grab to spike? That was pretty much his biggest advantage in the match up, hell it was his biggest advantage.

A lot of Ganon's **** match ups were **** because the opponent had a low risk, fast move that gave them way to much reward for what kind of move it was. A lot of that is fixed. No f-tilt locks to ridiculous percents, no chain grabs, no grab releases. Do those characters still have advantages? Most likely yes. But I think you're seriously underestimating what getting rid of many of those things has done for Ganon.

I did some testing. Seems only Zelda (EDIT: Also Ivy) completely gets out of a Gerudo with an outwards roll. If you buffer a quick dash before the gerudo, D3's out roll is covered. There are a few others like D3, but if you buffer the dash, they're all covered.

By the way, Charizard gets completely destroyed by Gerudo>d-tilt...it's not pretty.

I'm not saying he's so good. I hope no one's saying that. I'm saying that he's definitely viable.

 

[JOE!]

the thing I think alot of us arent focusing on here is this:

Sure, marth could be best, and Ganon still worst...but how big of a gap is it?

Is it MK : Ganon big? (Top of S to bottom of F)

Or more like MK : Kirby? (top of S to bottom of A), meaning, sure, there is a best and worst character, but it doesnt really matter when the best is only marginally better than the worst.

what do you guys think the range should be?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm not saying he's so good. I hope no one's saying that. I'm saying that he's definitely viable.

I never said he wasn't viable.

I just am now certain that he's overall the worst character in this game in the sense that it's unlikely he has any matchups that are in his favor when he has the fewest options of any character for reliably dealing with shields.

I'm pretty sure he beat Captain Falcon in vBrawl, who had next to no reward on most of his moves, but this is definitely not the case anymore. Captain Falcon actually now has new stuff that does a million damage per hit this time around, and considering that he does also have stuff that is safe on block, he's become leagues better.

I will point out, it's not all bad for Ganondorf. I think King DDD is possibly a very nearly neutral matchup since King DDD, like Ganondorf, doesn't have very good options on other shields. Vs Luigi and Bowser is also more even in this game as far as I can tell.

 

[bleyva]

the thing I think alot of us arent focusing on here is this:

Sure, marth could be best, and Ganon still worst...but how big of a gap is it?

Is it MK : Ganon big? (Top of S to bottom of F)

Or more like MK : Kirby? (top of S to bottom of A), meaning, sure, there is a best and worst character, but it doesnt really matter when the best is only marginally better than the worst.

what do you guys think the range should be?

didnt someone say the range is from wario to lucario or something?

 

[Swoops]

I just am now certain that he's overall the worst character in this game in the sense that it's unlikely he has any matchups that are in his favor when he has the fewest options of any character for reliably dealing with shields.

Charizard is in his favor, I'm completely serious. It's vicious.

 

[Linkshot]

We all have different opinions, bleyva.

 

[A2ZOMG]

By the way, I believe the range of tier rankings in this game is something like vMarth to vIke (even though the D tier is currently stupid, that doesn't matter for the question being answered now).

Definitely an improvement at any rate, but I'm getting more eager by the day to see this thing meet the day where it gets updated.

 

[JOE!]

well, thats good that he has an advantage against a character who can switch out to 2 other chars that beat him <.<

 

[Swoops]

You're still limiting 1/3 of a character, and usually taking a stock if charizard is ever in lol. That's good in my book .

 

[Big O]

I think Ganon vs CF is even. The offline matches I had vs my friend (probably one of the best CF's in SoCal) were both epic and down to the wire in general.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I think Ganon vs CF is even. The offline matches I had vs my friend (probably one of the best CF's in SoCal) were both epic and down to the wire in general.

No offense, but I've seen your matches versus A2Z, so, um...if your friend is as good as you say he is, and you're getting very close results, then Ganondorf wins. Period.

 

[JOE!]

i beated you with my falcon when there wasnt lol-lag...

 

[Steeler]

charizard's getup options are the worst anything of any category in this game ever. worse than the worst recovery, priority, KO power, approach, costume, taunt, victory theme, anything.

even so, charizard's all like "hey ganondorf get flamethrowered and rock smashed" and ganondorf is like "oh man "

 

[SaltyKracka]

You're forgetting that those **** match ups, and the people we still can't d-tilt, were changed so that the match ups definitely aren't **** anymore. Did you completely forget that Falco no longer has a chain grab to spike? That was pretty much his biggest advantage in the match up, hell, it was his biggest advantage, period.

Yes, and now Ganon won't get 0-death'd by Falco, or CG'd across the stage by D3 and Yoshi. Note that while this actually makes the Yoshi matchup maybe in our favor, it only helps the Falco matchup to go from "insta-lose" to "you'll lose anyways, hyuck hyuck". As for D3...that's still under discussion. As for IC's, jury's still out on whether their stuff is still possible.

A lot of Ganon's **** match ups were **** because the opponent had a low risk, fast move that gave them way to much reward for what kind of move it was. A lot of that is fixed. No f-tilt locks to ridiculous percents, no chain grabs, no grab releases. Do those characters still have advantages? Most likely yes. But I think you're seriously underestimating what getting rid of many of those things has done for Ganon.

And that helps in the case of Yoshi, Shiek, and...D3. Seriously, that's it. Sure, the first two aren't absolute **** anymore, but is that going to help any of his other **** matchups? Because I'm not seeing it.

I did some testing. Seems only Zelda (EDIT: Also Ivy) completely gets out of a Gerudo with an outwards roll. If you buffer a quick dash before the gerudo, D3's out roll is covered. There are a few others like D3, but if you buffer the dash, they're all covered.

Good to know. Still doesn't help the problem of landing it in the first place, though...

By the way, Charizard gets completely destroyed by Gerudo>d-tilt...it's not pretty.

We already ***** Charizard if we ever choked him anyways...>_>

I'm saying that he's definitely viable.

And I'd agree with you...if it weren't for the (at least) five matchups that absolutely **** Ganon.