Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Steeler]

every character has an unwinnable matchup vs pokemon trainer

 

[18.15.2.15x12.9.14.11]

Not exactly an impossible matchup, but Olimar v. Peach might be below 60:40 now. xD

 

[ぱみゅ]

Randomnumbersguy, I have two things to say about those vids. First, the simple fact that they're all Japanese indicates to me that no real high-level American Snakes have been losing to Links. Also, the Snakes in those videos are obviously not as skilled as the Links are.

Vids are just examples about what a Link can do about Snake's playstyle (to prove it's not completly Snake-sided), not to show that Link IS actually better than Snake.
Also, machups % are ALL HYPOTETICAL, just as tiers are; obviously, there's not two players with the same skills.
And what if they're japanese? do you think Japan is not at the US level? do you think US is just the best? try go and fight one of those guys offline (actually, an international tournament wouldn't sound bad at all...) and then, you can say they're not at US level.


EDIT: LOL @ steeler's comments, they're too much of a flaming-killer. But, thinking of it, PT actually can counter every weakness with the right Pokemon... interesting point...

 

[SaltyKracka]

Vids are just examples about what a Link can do about Snake's playstyle (to prove it's not completly Snake-sided), not to show that Link IS actually better than Snake.
Also, machups % are ALL HYPOTETICAL, just as tiers are; obviously, there's not two players with the same skills.
And what if they're japanese? do you think Japan is not at the US level? do you think US is just the best? try go and fight one of those guys offline (actually, an international tournament wouldn't sound bad at all...) and then, you can say they're not at US level.


EDIT: LOL @ steeler's comments, they're too much of a flaming-killer. But, thinking of it, PT actually can counter every weakness with the right Pokemon... interesting point...

1. I never said that it was completely Snake-sided. But the sheer difference in skill that was obvious in those videos really doesn't say anything about how the matchup goes at higher levels.

2. About Japan. They play it differently over there. As in, there is no such thing as a Japanese Sirlin, lucky *******s. I remember a time when Fox was up in top tier on their list, and it was very apparent from that vid that that Snake wouldn't have stood a chance against somebody like Ally, or even some of the people here in SD.

Yeah, I'm not suggesting Ganondorf wins this matchup at all. I'm just saying this is one of few matchups that got a lot better for Ganondorf.

Agreed. While it's still pretty much unwinnable, it's not a DK-level autoloss anymore.

 

[Thinkaman]

Then shall I provide you with some?

MK vs. Ness
Ganondorf vs. MK
Ganondorf vs. DDD
Ganondorf vs. Falco
Ganondorf vs. ROB
Ganondorf vs. Olimar
Ganondorf vs. Samus

I played a ton of Ganon against both Falco and Olimar during testing. Probably the two matchups I played the most of. Neither is that bad for Ganon, though slightly in his disadvantage.

Also, comparing ICs to Ganon is absurd because Ganon doesn't have to babysit Nana. I get grabbed by Popo in lots of situations where I just knocked Nana halfway to Indonesia and he can't do a darn thing. Flame Choke's little mobility boost makes up for the poor timing and lets it punish anything a dash grab could.

 

[thesage]

Lol Ness is probably pretty bad. Pk fire is really easy to di out of the first hit. Pk flash is impossible to hit with vs. anybody competent. D-throw is nice but you probably should've done that to u-throw instead so that it makes u-throw ->pkt better...

D-smash and u-smash need to be sped up to be viable. F-smash needs a range increase.

Forward smash damage (18, 20, 22, or 24%) -> (19, 21, 23, or 27%)
Down/Up smash initial hit knockback (100/0) -> (50/0)
Down throw main hits damage (1%) -> (2%) (New total: 14%)
Pk Flash knockback (70/10) -> (75/20)
Pk Fire pillar knockback (30/10) -> (30/7), angle (68) -> (112)

I think you guys are buffing Ness the wrong way. Just increase the range on his aerials, make uair bigger, make nair more powerful. Make dair come out a bit faster. There you have a good character.

 

[ぱみゅ]

1. I never said that it was completely Snake-sided. But the sheer difference in skill that was obvious in those videos really doesn't say anything about how the matchup goes at higher levels.

2. About Japan. They play it differently over there. As in, there is no such thing as a Japanese Sirlin, lucky *******s. I remember a time when Fox was up in top tier on their list, and it was very apparent from that vid that that Snake wouldn't have stood a chance against somebody like Ally, or even some of the people here in SD.



Agreed. While it's still pretty much unwinnable, it's not a DK-level autoloss anymore.

That's exactly what I meant... is not to show the entire machup, is for show Link's options (yet, doesn't show options for Snake...).
And japanese people only play different; you cannot say if one is better or worse than the US' one, and there would be only one way to see that... but something like an international tournament (or, aiming TOO high, an international BBrawl tournament) is still far, far away...

 

[SaltyKracka]

I played a ton of Ganon against both Falco and Olimar during testing. Probably the two matchups I played the most of. Neither is that bad for Ganon, though slightly in his disadvantage.

Also, comparing ICs to Ganon is absurd because Ganon doesn't have to babysit Nana. I get grabbed by Popo in lots of situations where I just knocked Nana halfway to Indonesia and he can't do a darn thing. Flame Choke's little mobility boost makes up for the poor timing and lets it punish anything a dash grab could.

Are you sure you're playing the same characters I am? Because I could swear that Ganon's horrible approach options coupled with their amazing camping games spelled out "N-O-C-H-A-N-C-E".

Also, what mobility boost?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lol Ness is probably pretty bad. Pk fire is really easy to di out of the first hit. Pk flash is impossible to hit with vs. anybody competent. D-throw is nice but you probably should've done that to u-throw instead so that it makes u-throw ->pkt better...

D-smash and u-smash need to be sped up to be viable. F-smash needs a range increase.

Forward smash damage (18, 20, 22, or 24%) -> (19, 21, 23, or 27%)
Down/Up smash initial hit knockback (100/0) -> (50/0)
Down throw main hits damage (1%) -> (2%) (New total: 14%)
Pk Flash knockback (70/10) -> (75/20)
Pk Fire pillar knockback (30/10) -> (30/7), angle (68) -> (112)

I think you guys are buffing Ness the wrong way. Just increase the range on his aerials, make uair bigger, make nair more powerful. Make dair come out a bit faster. There you have a good character.

THIS IS WHAT I'M ****ING TALKING ABOUT GUYS.

Seriously dudes, Ness is still terrible. Like I've been always saying, his unimpressive range, speed, and safety is what really hurts him.

I feel that many people here are a little too **** idealistic about the way movesets can and actually work.

And please, if anything, don't base Ness's performance on Wifi playtesting. Ness is stupidly good on Wifi due to his gimmicky setups and "camping" actually becoming viable.

Not saying I don't appreciate the effort. Quite the opposite, but this project has a ways to go.

 

[18.15.2.15x12.9.14.11]

EDIT: Randomnumbersguy, I have two things to say about those vids. First, the simple fact that they're all Japanese indicates to me that no real high-level American Snakes have been losing to Links.

There aren't many U.S. high lvl Snake vs. High lvl Link matches online on youtube. -.-
I found one (DSF vs Deva) where Link won, but his Snake is rather aggressive, so I didn't think it proved my point that Link spam > Snake spam. Simply put, I couldn't find any U.S. videos where both Snake and Link played the matchup as we had discussed.

Also, the Snakes in those videos are obviously not as skilled as the Links are.

Those Snakes are Japan's top players, just like the Links. My guess is that you impulsively categorized them as less skilled because they lost to a bottom tier character, however, that matchup in particular is rather even. -.- Anyways, the point of the videos is not that Link won, but that Link's spam > Snake's spam.

Edit: Also, just for the record, the numbers in my name are not random. DX

 

[thesage]

And please, if anything, don't base Ness's performance on Wifi playtesting. Ness is stupidly good on Wifi due to his gimmicky setups and "camping" actually becoming viable.

uh ness is terrible on wifi lmao. He can't recover.

The main problem with Ness is that his sh is too high for the playstyle he's best with. You can do what brawl+ did and keep his floaty playstyle or just make his sh shorter.

I know that you guys are unwilling to change hitboxes/frame speeds but that's the main problem with Ness. His physics and moves just don't work well together. Dunno why they changed it so much from melee to brawl =/

 

[SaltyKracka]

Tis much easier to call you numbersguy than to copy your name.

 

[A2ZOMG]

uh ness is terrible on wifi lmao. He can't recover.

This is a false assumption. I've played several Nesses who recover fine on wifi. As further proof that Ness is ridiculous on wifi, FOW has placed extremely high on the AiB ladder (like top 50 for real), and really, his recovery is perfectly fine on wifi as long as the lag isn't maple syrup ridiculous.

When there's just a few frames of lag (or in the 1/4 second region) Ness's gimmicky setups are much harder to block/avoid, while it actually makes relatively little difference on his recovery (which is subpar, regardless of wifi or not, but mainly, Ness gets to camp and do gimmicky stuff on wifi).

Y'know who's a terrible character on wifi? G&W. Seriously, I don't understand why people say he's so good on wifi. I've mained this character on wifi before, and HE SUCKS UNDER LAG. He can't space for crap, and lag does actually affect his recovery (missing sweetspots that he normally wouldn't miss is very bad). People can do random stuff to get in his range better and buffer faster attacks better than he can, and the timing of releasing charged smashes is messed up completely by lag. And seriously, you don't really see this guy place on the ladder ever. <_<

And before you tell me that D-throw D-smash is harder to tech on wifi, it isn't.

 

[Thinkaman]

Ness isn't that bad. I saw that awhile back someone used him in a decently large tourney and won $300+.

Oh wait, that was me.

Sorry guys, but all these "Ness is bad" arguments are dead to me. You might as well be trying to tell me the Earth is flat, Meta Knight sucks, or Sonic isn't annoying. All of my experience in both normal Brawl and BBrawl runs counter to anything you are saying, and I will *gladly* money match anyone in BBrawl with Ness... or Ganon for that matter.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Thinkaman, I hate how you don't actually think, but you"feel".

Seriously. Next thing I'm going to discover is that you're a woman. <________<

 

[Thinkaman]

...lol. That's extremely ironic, because my friends known me as someone who claims to detest emotion and adhere to logic for everything. I even read Atlas Shrugged this summer and loved it to death, heh.

Logic is dictated by evidence, and all my evidence is that Ness and Ganon is a character I can win with. I could rattle on in a battle of theorycraft, talking about how Ness's fair is legitimately one of the best moves in the game, or how the combination of a top notch dash grab and the best throws in the game automatically makes him a contender for a top character... but I don't have to. My direct experience with the characters shows hard results, no feelings or petty human emotion needed.

 

[MaRRoK]

need codez

amazing project! the only thing i would suggest would be to allow wolf's ^B to grab ledges easier. come to think of it, its probably better if you didnt take my suggestion because if u fix my complaint, ull have to do the same 4 ever1. forget i said anything. :-&

can someone link me to the balenced brawl codes? I want to use this in conjunction with Phantomwing's file replacement 4.0 (music hax) and the code to disable custom stages. thanx!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah but like...your explanation for stuff generally sucks. =/

A lot of the reasoning that I hate assumes that any character can make anyone make a mistake. That's the most common assumption I see used arguing that Ganondorf doesn't suck. See, it doesn't work like that at all. Ganondorf by far is one of the more predictable characters in this game due to how overcentralized and slow his options are. If you're trying to argue about forcing mistakes, almost every character in this game (besides probably King Dedede and Zelda) outclasses him at this.

In BBrawl especially, this matters due to how significantly more powerful characters have become as a whole. Ganondorf himself can't take nearly as much punishment from newly buffed characters either, so his buffs at any rate are overrated.

 

[LightSpineSonic]

Any news about the non-hb codes for pal?

Edit: For the pal version do i need to delete the custom stages as well?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

If you are using the Homebrew Channel and gecko OS directly, you don't need to download smash stack (the .bin file contained in the .zip that is a hacked custom stage), and you don't need to delete your custom stages.

 

[Swoops]

In BBrawl especially, this matters due to how significantly more powerful characters have become as a whole. Ganondorf himself can't take nearly as much punishment from newly buffed characters either, so his buffs at any rate are overrated.

I hardly think of an OoS punisher that can do 40 something damage at low percents and can kill well before 100% as overrated (footstool to wizkick bury.)

Ganon can KO a person at pretty much any percent now. The fact that his tech chase game is now a 75:25 chance of hitting gerudo again on characters that can be hit by d-tilt is pretty big. Also having a KO move almost, if not as, powerful as u-tilt right at the ledge is pretty **** good too. He's also got a very long duration air grab that kills an opponent by the ledge.

It's not that any character can make another character make a mistake, pretty much every character has better tools to do so, it's that even the best players can and will make mistakes. Ganon can essentially take a stock off of a single mistake now, and the removal of chaingrabs/grab releases helps him immensely. I think giving him a reliable approach option would be overkill.

 

[NO-IDea]

Those Snake v Link videos provided earlier... the Snakes were horrible.

And before you start criticizing me that Japan players play different and they're top notch, did you bother watching the videos closely? The link was outplaying him the Snake on all levels. Simple, repeated mistakes doesn't make a good Snake main, let alone a good player. I could understand if you wanted to relate play styles of Fox between the two countries, but for Snake, tacking on unnecessary damage (not referring to trading blows) isn't a play style and is altogether a stupid idea.

We refer to high-level U.S. Snakes because our metagame for Snake is farther than theirs. It's very noticeable when watching their gameplay. With that said, there is still no proof that Link has a clear advantage in the match-up. Conversely, many could argue that Snake has a clear advantage, and the argument makes sense. Of course, by clear advantage, I mean it's not 50-50, but not a huge advantage to say it's over 60-40.

And I'd be willing to play against some Ganons wifi next week. Although the Samus v Ganon match-up is already skewed in my favor, so I'll probably resort to another character to see if Ganon shines XD.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Then shall I provide you with some?

MK vs. Ness
...

Just really untrue. That matchup is 6:4 in favor of Meta Knight in vanilla Brawl, and Meta Knight has gotten worse and Ness clearly better. It's now likely an even to near even matchup.

And while my opinion of A2ZOMG had risen a bit, it's actually gone back down due to his recent theorycrafting and bold claims without backing. Ness is trash? Ganon is worse than Solo Zelda? Whatever.

As far as Link vs Snake goes, I do personally see Link having the clear upperhand, but that's just pure conjecture on my part. We should have a Link main fight Ally in BBrawl and see how he does

Edit: You should go Samus versus Ganon at least a few times. If it's against someone like Thinkaman I'm sure you will still be challenged.

 

[bleyva]

Yeah but like...your explanation for stuff generally sucks. =/

woah, had to do a doubletake when i read that, as i dont understand this statement at all. from what ive read, Thinka seems to provide very coherent explanations for every claim makes. not to mention its usually gonna be a very interesting read when he posts.

seriously, i could read his and Amazing Ampharos' posts all day. theyre like preachers, not of the Good Book, but of the Good Brawl

 

[Suntan Luigi]

As a guy who loves playing item ffas with my brother just as much as competitive gameplay, I just wanted to state a few things.

Whever I am selecting a stage, the custom stages screen will not appear. Also, tournament mode does not load either. Is there any way to fix things like these in the next release? I know BBrawl is focused more on the competive aspects of Brawl, but it would be nice not having to switch to vBrawl just to play my crazy spring stages.

 

[LightSpineSonic]

I hate to ask again but is there any news about the non homebrew channel app for the pal version :/?

 

[Swordplay]

Link players have discussed the snake matchup for a very long time.

We've done extensive testing and have brought in excellent snake mains to discuss the match up and test it. Both sides generally agree that Snake has a 55-45 advantage over Link in VB. This is in fact due to the slightly superior projectiles Link has forcing snake to approach while relying on zair thwart approaches. That combined with his sword allow him to out range snake somewhat shutting down mostly what makes him a good character. What gives snake the slight advantage seems to be the speed of his moves. Yes they have incredible change but his speed is superior which gives him an edge, not to mention Links bad recovery. Go ahead and ask SuSa for more details.

I can only imagine how badly Link devastates snake in BB considering how buffed he was and the slight Nerf to snake. I haven't played BB in a while but no single character is probably hurt by Links arrows more than snake. (not one that I can think of) I would except this match up in BB to be over 60-40, perhaps 65-35 Link advantage.

 

[daisho]

Link players have discussed the snake matchup for a very long time.

We've done extensive testing and have brought in excellent snake mains to discuss the matchup and test it. Both sides generally agree that Snake has a 55-45 advantage over Link in VB. Go ahead and ask SuSa for more details.

I can only imagine how badly Link devastates snake in BB considering how buffed he was and the slight Nerf to snake. I haven't played BB in a while but no single character is probably hurt by Links arrows more than snake. (not one that I can think of) I would except this match up in BB to be over 60-40, perhaps 65-45 Link advantage.

65+45= 110.

If you have never played the game then there is no way you can know.

 

[Anomilus]

I've already tried publicizing this on AIB. Most people surprisingly don't have much faith in it.

I finished doing (at least what I consider) a thorough search of their forums, and I really don't think the word of Balanced Brawl has been spread all that well on AiB. The most positive signs I've seen exist specifically on the Link Character boards there. Some people have even adopted the sig Meno created. A less successful thread had somebody arguing his wrongful placement of a BBrawl thread, resulting in it getting locked.

I really think a LOT more could be done to get people at AiB interested in this. I can't say I'm the person to do it since I'm not all that great at promoting stuff like this. But maybe if Thinkaman or Ampharos took a bit of time to make a thread at their Brawl Hackers board, emphasizing the Custom Stage exploit, I really do believe more people will find this project more interesting than is currently being anticipated.

 

[Swordplay]

1. Clever daisho...... Post edited....

2. If you doubt me, go ask Finnz7. He apparently has claimed to almost beat Ally in VB with Link.

3. I was simple taking what I know from VB and applying it here. The game hasn't changed only the matchups. Besides up to this point. Matchups against rare played characters like Link have been entirely theory with little data to support anything. So who cares if I theory-play a little.

4. Considering myself as a Link main and my friend as a snake main, (We also play each others mains) I have played well over 1000 Link V Snake matches in VB. I probably know the match up better than anybody in this thread in VB. I know all the exploits and everything that works. The game hasn't changed for either of these players. All I needed to do was some minor testing to find out how much earlier snake dies to Link in BB. The amount is significant enough to be a link advantage. With that said, I still would need to play BB matches in order to so how this affects player adaptability to determine numbers. VB is defiantly between 55-45 and 60-40 snake. It defiantly seems to be Link's favor in BB.

5.

I finished doing (at least what I consider) a thorough search of their forums, and I really don't think the word of Balanced Brawl has been spread all that well on AiB. The most positive signs I've seen exist specifically on the Link Character boards there. Some people have even adopted the sig Meno created. A less successful thread had somebody arguing his wrongful placement of a BBrawl thread, resulting in it getting locked.

I really think a LOT more could be done to get people at AiB interested in this. I can't say I'm the person to do it since I'm not all that great at promoting stuff like this. But maybe if Thinkaman or Ampharos took a bit of time to make a thread at their Brawl Hackers board, emphasizing the Custom Stage exploit, I really do believe more people will find this project more interesting than is currently being anticipated.

Everyone knows Link mains live on AIB. In fact, they are probably the only people who go there. Also, they will inherently love you and your project.

 

[JOE!]

Link players have discussed the snake matchup for a very long time.

We've done extensive testing and have brought in excellent snake mains to discuss the match up and test it. Both sides generally agree that Snake has a 55-45 advantage over Link in VB. This is in fact due to the slightly superior projectiles Link has forcing snake to approach while relying on zair thwart approaches. That combined with his sword allow him to out range snake somewhat shutting down mostly what makes him a good character. What gives snake the slight advantage seems to be the speed of his moves. Yes they have incredible change but his speed is superior which gives him an edge, not to mention Links bad recovery. Go ahead and ask SuSa for more details.

I can only imagine how badly Link devastates snake in BB considering how buffed he was and the slight Nerf to snake. I haven't played BB in a while but no single character is probably hurt by Links arrows more than snake. (not one that I can think of) I would except this match up in BB to be over 60-40, perhaps 65-35 Link advantage.

what have I been saying guys? proof right here that link is even (ish) with snake

 

[SaltyKracka]

I hardly think of an OoS punisher that can do 40 something damage at low percents and can kill well before 100% as overrated (footstool to wizkick bury.)

Ganon can KO a person at pretty much any percent now. The fact that his tech chase game is now a 50/50 chance of hitting gerudo again on characters that can be hit by d-tilt is pretty big. Also having a KO move almost, if not as, powerful as u-tilt right at the ledge is pretty **** good too. He's also got a very long duration air grab that kills an opponent by the ledge.

It's not that any character can make another character make a mistake, pretty much every character has better tools to do so, it's that even the best players can and will make mistakes. Ganon can essentially take a stock off of a single mistake now, and the removal of chaingrabs/grab releases helps him immensely. I think giving him a reliable approach option would be overkill.

Sorry Swoops, but I'm going to have to disagree with you here. I've never seen ANYBODY, much less a Ganon, manage to footstool anybody OoS. Next up, the dtilt trip. It's a wonderful thing, but it's basically useless quite a few of the characters where it's inclusion would've actually helped, namely Marth, DDD, and so on. The fact of the matter is that it's very easy to avoid getting Gerudo'd again for many people by the simple expident of rolling out. Also, would you mind mentioning this oh-so-very powerful kill move to me? Because I'm not seeing it. And Aerudo has absolutely no priority.

Again, I'm seeing you claim that Ganon can take a single stock off of a mistake now. THIS IS PATENTLY UNTRUE. It takes quite a few mistakes to get killed by Ganon, seeing as how the only really effective punishers he has are Gerudo and Dair, and they are very situational. I have to bring up again the utter fallacy that one can always be capable of predicting what the opponent's going to do. You can't. You absolutely cannot.

 

[NO-IDea]

I still state the match-up to be 50-50 Link v. Snake in Balanced Brawl. No point in arguing about it any further; anyone knowledgeable of the subject knows the pros and cons and can shape their own decisions until results are finally tangible.

As far as Ganon being worse than Solo Zelda. That could rouse some controversy because Ganon has gotten a lot better (in a destructive sense) and Zelda still has many problems (that her counterpart addresses, but we're speaking of only Solo Zelda.) And then I know some excellent Zelda players who would argue otherwise. Don't forget Zelda received some buffs along with Ganon, especially her d-smash. I don't have enough experience to pin point a specific number, but I could certainly see it the match-up ratio going either way.

Overall however, I still find Ganondorf to be the worst character in Balanced Brawl (if we consider Zelda/Sheik together just like how we should consider PT as a whole and not by the individual Pokemon.) And please don't take it the wrong way when I say this.

The difference between the tiers have drastrically decreased, making Ganondorf still viable (somewhat) in the competitive scene. He's not a severe threat, but a threat nonetheless. Like the underdog who still has a chance of winning against all odds. ^^

If people would like to give a suggestion as to who is worst than Ganondorf (excluding Solo Zelda,) do make it now with a proper explanation as to why (meaning including how Ganon's strengths and that particular character's weaknesses make Ganon better than he/she/it.)

 

[A2ZOMG]

And while my opinion of A2ZOMG had risen a bit, it's actually gone back down due to his recent theorycrafting and bold claims without backing. Ness is trash? Ganon is worse than Solo Zelda? Whatever.

I've actually played against/as these characters keep in mind. I know their frame data for the most part, and if you can't call that good backing, I don't understand you at all.

It doesn't take a brain to know that Ness has essentially the worst range in this game. However he doesn't have Mario's excellent speed to counterbalance this. Nothing stands out about Ness except for his KO power. Everything else about him, when it comes to shield pressure, camping, approaching, etc is merely average at best

Solo Zelda is clearly better than Ganondorf just because she has more options from a neutral state. Zelda has two things that separate her from Ganondorf: camping and safe kill moves.

Solo Zelda easily beats Ganondorf in the actual matchup furthermore. It was always a bad matchup for Ganondorf, and he still doesn't have a real way of punishing her KO moves for the most part.

 

[Swoops]

Sorry Swoops, but I'm going to have to disagree with you here. I've never seen ANYBODY, much less a Ganon, manage to footstool anybody OoS. Next up, the dtilt trip. It's a wonderful thing, but it's basically useless quite a few of the characters where it's inclusion would've actually helped, namely Marth, DDD, and so on. The fact of the matter is that it's very easy to avoid getting Gerudo'd again for many people by the simple expident of rolling out. Also, would you mind mentioning this oh-so-very powerful kill move to me? Because I'm not seeing it. And Aerudo has absolutely no priority.

Again, I'm seeing you claim that Ganon can take a single stock off of a mistake now. THIS IS PATENTLY UNTRUE. It takes quite a few mistakes to get killed by Ganon, seeing as how the only really effective punishers he has are Gerudo and Dair, and they are very situational. I have to bring up again the utter fallacy that one can always be capable of predicting what the opponent's going to do. You can't. You absolutely cannot.

It's a jump out of shield. It's essentially an aerial out of shield provided you're precise enough, and it really doesn't have to be that precise, considering it'll come out quicker than every single option out of his shield, with the exception of grab.

Many of Ganon's bad match ups, d-tilt is guaranteed on. I don't see how it doesn't help against DDD when d-tilt is guaranteed on DDD. You say it's so simple to get out of it, you just roll behind Ganon. That's the only option to get out. Based on probability, 3 out of 4 times you're going to get them with Gerudo again. The fact that they have only one option to get out just makes that option all the more punishable.

End of Up B near the edge. Granted, I know the immense risk in going for it, but if you're careful and cover your *** (throw out an aerial first to keep them away from the ledge, leave enough room to land on the edge, etc.) that becomes a very dangerous thing. I know that people aren't stupid enough to wait for the punch to hit them, but if they so much as try to pressure you while you're on the ledge, they're risking getting killed at 50%. If you meant the grab I was talking about, I meant Up B too.

I agree, I was exaggerating quite a bit. But he can still do heavy punishment off of a mistake. I wouldn't call d-air extremely situational as a punisher when it effectively punishes quite a few ground approaches. I don't think that you can read someone all of the time, but I also don't believe that someone can play an entire match without making mistakes.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Ness's range is decidedly above average other than on his tilts, but those are pretty mediocre moves you won't be using much anyway. I mean, seriously, retreating fair outranges Mr. Game & Watch's turtle, and even when advancing it hits a non-trivial distance in front of him. All of his aerials in general have very good hitboxes that I'm pretty sure extend a bit past the animation. Dair foot goes down something like half a Ness body length. Just look at the huge areas usmash and dsmash sweep over. Dash attack hits a full body length in front of Ness I think. His dash grab is pretty much the same way; it has a pretty ridiculous range for its animation, and it's also exceptionally fast (in terms of start up time, did you know that Ness has the single fastest average grab speed across the entire cast?). Actually Ness is one of only two characters that can use dash grabs with pretty much reckless abandon (the other being Diddy Kong). Ness's forward smash is pretty massively disjointed as well, and it's 100% pure disjointed range not the kinda fake range someone like Mario gets by stepping forward (that's useful in its own way, but legitimate disjoints are the best kind of range). Ness also has three projectiles, and as trivial as it is, even the wind on PSI Magnet has alright range. Just on a pure factual level, any claims that Ness has bad range seem obviously untrue.

The actual worst range in the game obviously belongs to Wario, and second and third place are probably Luigi and Sonic in that order.

I really don't think Ganondorf can be point by point compared with other characters effectively. He's just too different, and in any case, you are going to end up with large positives and negatives of unclear comparative value to judge between.

 

[LightSpineSonic]

:/ am i being ignored here :/ or are you discussing something else?

 

[Linkshot]

We are discussing something else.

I'm quite sure that PAL Stack Smash, once available, will be on the first post, so if that's all you're worried about, check every week.

 

[Swoops]

I'm down for some BBrawl if anyone wants to play right now.

 

[Rinku リンク]

Is there a chance that a tier list will be released for BBrawl ?