Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[ratman19]

dont know if the discussion on link vs snake was finished, but here is a vid of two pretty good players. don't know if this was posted either

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiNu0dqERIQ&feature=channel_page

 

[Mit]

dont know if the discussion on link vs snake was finished, but here is a vid of two pretty good players. don't know if this was posted either

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiNu0dqERIQ&feature=channel_page

OH I LUV IZAW

But seriously, someone get Izaw hooked up with BBrawl. And Rebaz for that matter. We might discover that Link is broken.

 

[deepseadiva]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sinu0dqeriq&feature=channel_page

"BBrawl: F***ING AWESOME"

 

[JOE!]

See, im telling you at equal skill, BBrawl link will beat snake.

The problem is that snake (in vbrawl) either had very skilled player (ally isnt just good at playing snake, he is just a phenominal player in general), and many Links either werent that good, or just never really fought snakes because they were quickly eliminated by other characters in tournies, etc...

 

[Swoops]

Yes, and now Ganon won't get 0-death'd by Falco, or CG'd across the stage by D3 and Yoshi. Note that while this actually makes the Yoshi matchup maybe in our favor, it only helps the Falco matchup to go from "insta-lose" to "you'll lose anyways, hyuck hyuck". As for D3...that's still under discussion. As for IC's, jury's still out on whether their stuff is still possible.

What gives Falco such an amazing advantage? Are you basing the whole match up on the fact that Falco has teh lazurs?

And that helps in the case of Yoshi, Shiek, and...D3. Seriously, that's it. Sure, the first two aren't absolute **** anymore, but is that going to help any of his other **** matchups? Because I'm not seeing it.

I shouldn't go any further, because it'll just be me discussing how I didn't believe in a lot of the match ups that people claimed were **** for Ganon in vBrawl (Marth, Olimar.)

Good to know. Still doesn't help the problem of landing it in the first place, though...

At tourney level, with two equally skilled players, Gerudo should be landed a lot more than you think. That number increases especially in BBrawl, considering d-tilt leads into moar gerudo.

And I'd agree with you...if it weren't for the (at least) five matchups that absolutely **** Ganon.

What match ups are at the level of unwinnability (it's a word I swear,) that the match ups in vBrawl are?

 

[A2ZOMG]

No offense, but I've seen your matches versus A2Z, so, um...if your friend is as good as you say he is, and you're getting very close results, then Ganondorf wins. Period.

Wifi lag johns.

Just sayin...it was wifi, and I'm a little too experienced in the Ganon matchup on wifi. Except versus you. =P

Ganon Vs DDD I personally thought was no worse than 65/35 in vBrawl honestly. In BBrawl, I think it's probably close to neutral.

Vs DDD, you could always F-air to punish a lot of his stuff that he whiffs. N-air is super good vs him. In general DDD doesn't have safe approaches either, and his F-tilt/Waddle Dee camping is really not a threat if you know what to look out for.

That being said, I think DDD is still decent just because of his stupid shieldgrab, but none of his matchups are **** by any means.

 

[Thinkaman]

What gives Falco such an amazing advantage? Are you basing the whole match up on the fact that Falco has teh lazurs?

This. Though I do think Falco is one of BBrawl Ganon's harder matchups, it's pretty reasonable. Ganon has an unavoidable fair followup on him out of d-tilt on away roll. More importantly though, lasers don't change the fact that Falco is a light character who is somewhat easy to hit; all characters lighter than Falco are much harder for Ganon to connect moves with. If down-b went through lasers it would be even or in Ganon's favor, lol.

I shouldn't go any further, because it'll just be me discussing how I didn't believe in a lot of the match ups that people claimed were **** for Ganon in vBrawl (Marth, Olimar.)

This. I did think Olimar was somewhat bad in vBrawl, pretty substantial advantage, but nothing terrible; I took the best Olimar in the Midwest to the last stock in pools as Ganon once recently. (Or maybe it wasn't pools, meh) It's definitely a significantly better matchup now anyway, whatever the case.

At tourney level, with two equally skilled players, Gerudo should be landed a lot more than you think. That number increases especially in BBrawl, considering d-tilt leads into moar gerudo.

This. You can't tell me that Flame Choke is this terrible 16-frame attack that is always punished on reaction and is just terrible. Anyone who has seen or played a decent Ganon player knows that is a false characterization, much less someone like me who plays Ganon. It's an amazing move most characters would gladly trade for, and the only thing keeping Ganon in vBrawl competitive besides his uair. I have no fundamental problems landing side-b multiple times a stock--I have to bait and outwit my opponents to get it to connect, but if I wasn't prepared to do that then why would I have picked Ganon in the first place???

What match ups are at the level of unwinnability (it's a word I swear,) that the match ups in vBrawl are?

This. In BBrawl I have struggled most against Falco, Marth, Wolf, and Jigglypuff. All of these are very winnable, no worse than 40:60. I gave the example of BBrawl Falcon/Olimar possibly being 35:65 or 30:70 (possibly; I need to learn the matchup much better) and I can say that Ganon has no matchups as bad as that.

Of course, matchup impressions can vary wildly, even play players of the same matchup! I had several Ganon vs. Yoshi matches with JGALT, a Yoshi/Olimar main. Talking hours later, we both shocked each other with the analysis that we each thought it was the easiest matchup for our respective character! I said the entire matchup felt like easy street, sicne I could actually land hits and side-bs constantly, and Yoshi's normal plan of trading hits no longer worked; even Ganon's overkill negates Yoshi's upgraded survivability. He said that Yoshi's upgraded tilts wrecked Ganondorf, grounding fair was vastly more useful than normal due to Ganon's height and difficulty punishing, and his moveset was unaffected by Ganon's grounded down-b upgrade. (This was coming for someone who considers BBrawl Ganon possibly overbuffed) In retrospect, our results were about equal, so it's probably just even and not a good matchup for either player. The point is how our playstyles and biased observations led us to conclude totally opposite things from the same set of matches.

That being said, I think DDD is still decent just because of his stupid shieldgrab, but none of his matchups are **** by any means.

Charizard is probably his best matchup, though Squirtle might be his worst? He dislikes Ivysuar a lot too. See also: Snake.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Flame Choke is stupidly hard to land on people that are actually good. This is my experience in tournament.

In low level play, it's a very powerful move. But against people that leave few openings that also know how to outspace Ganon in the air, most of the time you spend is spacing safer attacks, which makes Flame Choke extremely situational. D-tilt buff helps somewhat, but doesn't work well once people start spacing carefully in the air.

Ganondorf can sorta space with his decent range, but isn't all that good at it compared to the people that are generally faster that have less situational aerial hitboxes.

Ultimately Ganondorf needs something that can be safe on block besides U-smash.

 

[Thinkaman]

Flame Choke is stupidly hard to land on people that are actually good. This is my experience in tournament.

Significantly more effort and trickery is required on my part, but I am still able to land it regularly against good players.

 

[Big O]

No offense, but I've seen your matches versus A2Z, so, um...if your friend is as good as you say he is, and you're getting very close results, then Ganondorf wins. Period.

Because lagfi matches prove how good people are...

Didn't you see me say that I played a guy from New Jersey with less lag than my matches with A2Z? That really speaks for itself.

You really need to stop talking down to people btw. The condescending tone makes it hard to believe you really mean "no offense."

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm still going to maintain, the only way Ganondorf will truly be consistently competitive is if he's given at least one option besides Up-smash that is safe on block. See, the problem with an extreme character like Ganondorf compared to an extreme character like Snake is that Snake actually has situational options that require actual skill to cover his weaknesses (getting juggled? B reverse boosts can solve that. Getting gimped? Smarter spacing of Up-B and C4 recovery can solve that).

Ganondorf doesn't even have situational answers to shieldcamping. If he tries to grab someone who is just sitting around shieldcamping, he'll get spotdodged, and punished. He's too slow to cross up his opponent either. He needs to get his opponent to make a mistake to punish them for shieldcamping.

See what I mean? With Ganondorf, either they mess up, or you're screwed. With most other characters, if you react the right way, you can get away fine.

I suggest N-air or Jab is sped up somewhere. Yeah actually, speed up that Jab. It's extremely stupid that it's the only Jab in this game that gets punished easily by spotdodges. <_<

If you're not going to speed anything up, Salty and I both believe that grounded Wizkick doesn't have enough knockback. It really doesn't kill, but just gets them offstage for the most part. =/

Ike likewise is going to have a rough time if the only thing he has changed is QD. Have fun getting shieldgrabbed all the time by DDD and other characters with good grab range.

 

[Swoops]

I've actually found b-air spacing is overall pretty reliable and safe, provided your aim is good. The shield pushback is really good, enough to be safe on shield for the most part. As long as you keep mixing up full jump u-airs/b-airs into falling b-airs, DJs into b-airs, and your spacing in general, it's pretty reliable against a lot of the cast.

Wizkick has a hell of a lot of knockback to me it seems. If fresh it kills pretty well. But it shares the same problem of decay that DA does.

 

[18.15.2.15x12.9.14.11]

I'm still going to maintain, the only way Ganondorf will truly be consistently competitive is if he's given at least one option besides Up-smash that is safe on block. See, the problem with an extreme character like Ganondorf compared to an extreme character like Snake is that Snake actually has situational options that require actual skill to cover his weaknesses (getting juggled? B reverse boosts can solve that. Getting gimped? Smarter spacing of Up-B and C4 recovery can solve that).

Bair, Uair (reverse), wizkick offstage... air dodge, spot dodge, dash dance, shield, doing nothing... also, ftilt and spaced jabs are sort of safe on characters with bad grabs.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I've actually found b-air spacing is overall pretty reliable and safe, provided your aim is good. The shield pushback is really good, enough to be safe on shield for the most part. As long as you keep mixing up full jump u-airs/b-airs into falling b-airs, DJs into b-airs, and your spacing in general, it's pretty reliable against a lot of the cast.

B-air spacing is only good against tall characters or if your opponent jumps/is in the air/on a platform. Trust me, I've actually tried spacing B-airs and I'm pretty good at timing it if I need it to hit. You can occasionally catch people by surprise, but it's really not that good. Smart players if they get pushed out of range can usually just dashgrab out of shield.

Most characters can Jab out of shield against U-air if their shieldgrab doesn't reach it.

 

[Thinkaman]

If you're not going to speed anything up, Salty and I both believe that grounded Wizkick doesn't have enough knockback. It really doesn't kill, but just gets them offstage for the most part. =/

Uh.......... what?

Wizkick, both grounded and aerial, is now the best down special in the game. Period. (Only transforms could be debated as superior.) It's better than turnips, fart, bombs, blizzard, gyro, shine, thunder, rest, bucket, C4, spindash charge, you name it. Grounded Wizkick is stronger than most f-smashes, just as fast, and moves Ganon across the stage through most projectiles and lesser attacks. Its bad-but-not-awful lag can be canceled off ledges to beautiful murderous results. It can even be rigged to leave Ganon in an aerial state; I've actually hit people trying to punish a blocked down-b with quake. I recall getting a legit FoG kill once too.

If some other character had it it would be great but less amazing, but Ganon takes fully advantage of it with both choke and now d-tilt, and badly needs its mobility in the first place.

Saying it should had more knockback is a foreign concept to me. It's like saying his jab should make the opponent invincible, u-tilt should give Ganon his final smash, or Ganon's gravity should go up instead of down. The idea that Wizkick isn't doing enough knockback is like saying Ganon's moves need to be slower. What are you comparing it to, Warlock Punch?

Ike likewise is going to have a rough time if the only thing he has changed is QD. Have fun getting shieldgrabbed all the time by DDD and other characters with good grab range.

Pretty much every group of good players who have tested the game extensively have immediately identified Ike as one of the best characters. Apparently Mr. Doom is absolutely terrifying with this.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

A fully spaced Ike fair is safe against pretty much everyone (including DDD, only tethers really have a hope of grabbing that). In general Ike has such an obscene amount of range and does so much shield damage with his attacks that he can outspace the opponent and then pressure well. Ike can jab cancel into shields with relative impunity. Ike's grab itself isn't even bad so he can just run up and grab people, and he has excellent f/b throws that put the opponents into a recovery situation frequently. Did I mention that Ike has an amazing meteor to go along with that? Quick Draw itself is basically safe on normal guard as well. You can't spam it into a shield because powershielding, spotdodging, or a well timed roll defeat it, but it's definitely an option for Ike to pressure people with. Ike's only real problems in standard Brawl were that he had a pretty ridiculous time approaching some characters (question of the day: how does Ike get in on Falco?), and he got gimped all over the place. He really doesn't have trouble applying pressure because his range easily makes up for his lack of speed when it comes to applying pressure.

This is fairly anecdotal, but I've seen quite a bit of Ike in action in this release, and every time I look at him, he looks better and better to me. He has a lot of really big positives, and I think his negatives may seem bigger than they really are (he is slow, but between Quick Draw, his range, and the superjab, it's not that big of a deal). His new f/bthrows fix his wall abuse, but they are suddenly really good moves on a lot of levels and probably being underrated by everyone (they set up for off-stage dair so well). I usually wouldn't like to say too much about characters being good or bad beyond asserting that the game is balanced, but at this point I'd be truly shocked if Ike was not in top half. Has anyone else seen much of Ike in action?

Shield camping in general is not very good anyway. Consider this tactic Ganondorf (or anyone) can use against someone who is being really defensive. Get kinda close like you're going to attack and then... do nothing. Just stand there. They throw up their shield, and then what do they do? They can hold it as long as they want, but they are just depleting it which is a pretty bad idea since low shield is an awful situation to be in in general. Shield drop is not instant; Ganon can punish that. Ganon can punish a roll. Ganon can punish any move they do OoS. Shielding when they don't attack is not safe, and Ganondorf can exploit that just as well as anyone else. After all, your "do nothing" attack has effective frame advantage on block. It's not even about character balance so much here; this is just basic gameplay. Unlike in other fighters, blocking has a cost in smash bros whenever you attempt it, and it is substantial enough that you can exploit it if the opponent shields too much.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganondorf's Down-B is quite frankly sometimes his only real way of punishing people who just run away from him all the time. That's why there's a problem. No seriously, it doesn't have enough knockback to make Ganondorf the threat you're trying to make him. At best he'll only revenge kill people with it.

And really, shielding ruins this attack against good players. If you're at a KO% and wizkick a shield, you're as good as dead.

See the whole problem with Ganondorf's moveset is that it's still overcentralized to a few specific attacks to deal with situations that ultimately hope the opponent messes up. And none of his moves except for U-smash are safe on block.

In case you didn't notice a trend from the videos I posted, I won the majority of the matches against Big O's Ganondorf. I highly doubt it's because I'm a better player than him.

Ike's entire strategy is still entirely Jab and F-air. I fail to see how that makes him a good character when all his KO moves are iffy at best on a defensive opponent. Sure, he never gets gimped and stuff. He still doesn't have a real answer to shields except for the usual Jab/F-air spacings which only go so far. Even with his QD buff, he really doesn't have the mobility to be constantly spacing F-air perfectly.

And anyhow, there is also powershielding his F-air, which is a pretty slow attack by the way.

The way I see it, considering how much KO power has increased on several characters in general...safety on your KO move really is a key factor if you're going to stand out, or at least a safe and reliable way to set up (even if it's merely forcing the approach with a safe projectile).

 

[18.15.2.15x12.9.14.11]

Ganondorf's Down-B is quite frankly sometimes his only real way of punishing people who just run away from him all the time. That's why there's a problem. No seriously, it doesn't have enough knockback to make Ganondorf the threat you're trying to make him. At best he'll only revenge kill people with it.

And really, shielding ruins this attack against good players. If you're at a KO% and wizkick a shield, you're as good as dead.

Don't be reckless and stupid when using wizkick. Don't treat it as something that's safe on block. lol

See the whole problem with Ganondorf's moveset is that it's still overcentralized to a few specific attacks to deal with situations that ultimately hope the opponent messes up. And none of his moves except for U-smash are safe on block.

Whenever you post, it's always ganon that plays incorrectly, and his opponent that plays correctly. Nobody has an option that counters all of ganon's options, so it's possible to never mess up and still get hit.

In case you didn't notice a trend from the videos I posted, I won the majority of the matches against Big O's Ganondorf. I highly doubt it's because I'm a better player than him.

There are so many factors that could have led to this other than what you are implying it's shaky at best.

Ike's entire strategy is still entirely Jab and F-air. I fail to see how that makes him a good character when all his KO moves are iffy at best on a defensive opponent. Sure, he never gets gimped and stuff. He still doesn't have a real answer to shields except for the usual Jab/F-air spacings which only go so far. Even with his QD buff, he really doesn't have the mobility to be constantly spacing F-air perfectly.

Ike has a grab. lol
Also bair is good & safe on block.

And anyhow, there is also powershielding his F-air, which is a pretty slow attack by the way.

There is also powershielding anything. lol what kind of silly point is this.

The way I see it, considering how much KO power has increased on several characters in general...safety on your KO move really is a key factor if you're going to stand out, or at least a safe and reliable way to set up (even if it's merely forcing the approach with a safe projectile).

Heavyweights + safe KO moves don't mix. XD

 

[blakinola]

I would pay money to have Ganon's terribad grab improved. I feel like smaller characters have more grab range. Sigh.

 

[HailCrest]

How do you read the knockback? As in what does (110/70) mean?

 

[NO-IDea]

Enough talk. Let's get an online tournament arranged. Like... by next weekend. Doesn't have to be a huge turnout, like 16 people will do. That's already, what, testing out 16 characters, practically half the roster? Give or take some people may use the same character (use my Samus? WHAT?)

It won't necessarily settle things but it will give the B-Brawl community a snapshot of where we're at. (I don't honestly think this tournament will be close to arranging a tier list yet, we need a bigger variety of players more than a variety of characters within the tournament. In other words, we need a bigger community.)

A well-organized tournament will not only serve to publicize the mod, it will also show that we mean business. Not to mention people WILL be curious to look at the results of a B-Brawl tournament.

 

[Pierce7d]

A2zomg is making some really intelligent points here that I think you're all failing to understand. Doing nothing vs shield camping is not a viable option. I can run up to Ganondorf with virtually any character and shield in his face, and he LOSES. His grab range is so pathetic, with many characters, it's quite easy to simply run up and shield outside of his grab range, but inside your own. If he does anything that is not jump, you can just spot dodge. If he jumps, keep shielding (or jump and aerial him first if your character is fast enough). If he shields, grab him (he can't punish you even if he spotdodges). If he does something on the ground, spot dodge. All Ganon's stuff is slow enough to react to from this position. If he sits there and does nothing, just throw a retreated aerial out of shield. If he shields it, you can just reapproach in the same manner and reset the situation. If he tries to shield every time, just grab him. You can also just space a lot of moves on his shield, and he can't do anything about it. These are the reasons Ganon was terrible in vBrawl. Now, in BBrawl, Ganon hits you really hard, but at peak play, he still can't hit you. With no speed or range buffs to any moves, his core problem and the reason he's bottom on the tier list still exists.

Also, you can still edgeguard Ganon, you just have to be precise. It doesn't change any MUs from vBrawl. I've always felt that Ganon's best bet in this game is mixing up Dash Grab and Dash Attack. Spot dodge covers both, but can get punished the hardest. Those are Ganon's fastest ground moves in terms of approach and usablity (and dash grab is pretty pitiful.) Eventually, the opponent will start approaching after eating massive damage from your grab, and then you can use mix-ups. Still, Ganon is pretty terrible.

Zelda has always been terrible. I'm not going to get into that, I just think it's the most ignorant decision to make Din's Fire leave her vulnerable. She has low mobility and falls slow, with low aerial range, on aerials that all need to sweetspot (well, Uair isn't helping here, and Nair has the least range). Her recovery is pitifully obvious and punishable. Here's how to edgeguard Zelda in three easy steps.

1. If she's near the stage, jump off and hit her. Repeat until she must recover from a distance, because her UpB has awful start up.

2. When Zelda is far offstage and you can't hit her for free, wait until she initiates the start of her UpB. Then hog the ledge. Zelda cannot mindgame anyone after she reappears, because she has NO mobility.

3. Since she was far off the stage, she'll reappear somewhere near you onstage with a lot of lag. Quickly get up, and throw her back off the stage. If you're unable to send her off the stage, just hit her with something. She'll have a reasonable amount of damage, and she fails against opponent's that can poke her, so she'll be offstage again soon.

Now, we can assume that people will not play perfectly, and that they will make mistakes, Ganon can use mindgames, and he will hit hard. This makes him semi-viable, because we're humans, not drones. However, trying to argue that he's not bottom 3 in the game on paper, and that he's not relying on his opponents making mistakes is just denial. The same is true for Zelda. Her UpSmash is her saving grace here, because it shield stabs, making it a viable approach. I know you think Zelda should be bad because of Sheik, and that's fine, but I will say this: when I'm fighting Zelda/Shiek players, and they switch to Zelda to kill me at high percents, I get super happy, and end up removing anywhere from 70% to a stock before getting hit once. The player would've been much better off just camping with Sheik and racking me up to like 220%, rather than just getting tossed around as Zelda in almost every instance. Don't jump into the ****, and watch for fsmash, and Zelda just sucks.

Anyway, I need help. I want to mix in some project SA characters with my BBrawl. I know it's possible because Ryko did it when he came over. I have the characters, I have BBrawl. How do I load them simultaneously?

EDIT: As for a tournament? I doubt I'll have time on a weekend because of real tourneys + school starting next week.

 

[GwJ]

I could be in the tourney.

 

[daisho]

I could probably join a tournament... I need more BBrawl practice though...

 

[Steeler]

Charizard is probably his best matchup, though Squirtle might be his worst? He dislikes Ivysuar a lot too. See also: Snake.

charizard isn't his best matchup simply because of flamethrower and rock smash being fairly safe if used correctly and wrecking dedede's shield, something he heavily depends on. the matchup might be more in dedede's favor than it was in vbrawl due to the tech chase being more devastating than the chaingrab...in vbrawl it was no worse than 40-60 charizard disadvantage and arguably 45-55. this is probably 35-65 against a dedede skilled at tech chasing and reading charizard's absolutely horrible options out of dthrow.

squirtle isn't his worst, his aerial mobility is good enough to be safe on shield most of the time, but not if dedede powershields or reads squirtle very well. it's still not fun for dedede at all though, a solid 60-40 advantage for squirtle. if squirtle is fatigued and has a stock lead, it can camp exceptionally well.

ivysaur struggles for the same reason ganondorf does sometimes...there isn't much ivysaur can do about a shield approach. i'll have to check for sure what the difference is in bair's shield damage now, but ivysaur has a bad grab game (standing grab has very very barely more range than dedede's and is over twice as slow, pivot grab is decent but is lacking in range). nair is decent but can be punished every time if it doesn't shield poke because ivysaur's mobility is so terrible. it's like wario dair if wario couldn't move in the air at all. however, ivysaur looooves the dthrow change, now ivy isn't in danger of getting gimped at any percent out of a grab. this might be neutral, at best.

 

[hotgarbage]

I'm not going to get into that, I just think it's the most ignorant decision to make Din's Fire leave her vulnerable.

It's not listed in her change section for some reason, but dins fire no longer leaves her in free fall.

 

[TP]

You know how certain characters do great on the character rankings list despite being low on the tier list? For example, ICs are 4th in rankings, and Reflex Trainer is doing great... I think Ganon will end up the same way in BBrawl. On paper, his lack of safe options is an obstacle that he just can't get around, but in real life he's fine. I know that I can consistently land chokes in vBrawl against any character except G&W and Jiggs. I also know that in theory, there should be about 15 more characters I can't choke. Oh well, I'll just keep doing it.

 

[JOE!]

Steeler, it was VS Ganon, not DDD i believe

 

[Crescens]

charizard isn't his best matchup simply because of flamethrower and rock smash being fairly safe if used correctly and wrecking dedede's shield, something he heavily depends on. the matchup might be more in dedede's favor than it was in vbrawl due to the tech chase being more devastating than the chaingrab...in vbrawl it was no worse than 40-60 charizard disadvantage and arguably 45-55. this is probably 35-65 against a dedede skilled at tech chasing and reading charizard's absolutely horrible options out of dthrow.

I would just like to point out that theoretically, the techchase can never be better than the chaingrab. If you're afraid that it is, just continue to roll away from the opponent towards the edge - the result is the same as the chaingrab. Once you're rolled up against the edge, the next throw will put you off.

 

[Thinkaman]

I would just like to point out that theoretically, the techchase can never be better than the chaingrab. If you're afraid that it is, just continue to roll away from the opponent towards the edge - the result is the same as the chaingrab. Once you're rolled up against the edge, the next throw will put you off.

... via a spike that some characters really don't want to deal with. It's not awful for Charizard, but it's still pretty bad.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ike has a grab. lol
Also bair is good & safe on block.

Ike's grab range is not very impressive. And his grab reward is pretty lame if his opponent doesn't fall for anything stupid. His throws never kill until like 180% either, so his grab game is never really much of a threat.

B-air is NOT safe on block unless you were retreating it right from the tip.

To give you an idea how unsafe on block Ike is, Mario can literally Up-smash or B-air out of shield whenever Ike does anything not named well-spaced F-air/Jab and it will almost always hit Ike. This is one reason why Mario clearly won the matchup vs Ike (not to mention, Ike gets juggled and pressured in the air easily, Up-B can beat his Jab, and smart fireball camping has no disadvantages against him).

Link also beat Ike because he could shieldgrab everything Ike could do (don't tell me retreating F-air. It's not viable when Link camps).

There is also powershielding anything. lol what kind of silly point is this.

Ike's F-air can be powershielded ON REACTION. That's how slow it is.

In general Ike is extremely linear and doesn't really have much he can do if his opponent can deal with his Jab and F-air effectively. Along with Zelda, I believe he's the most linear character in the game.

 

[18.15.2.15x12.9.14.11]

A2zomg is making some really intelligent points here that I think you're all failing to understand. Doing nothing vs shield camping is not a viable option. I can run up to Ganondorf with virtually any character and shield in his face, and he LOSES. His grab range is so pathetic, with many characters, it's quite easy to simply run up and shield outside of his grab range, but inside your own. If he does anything that is not jump, you can just spot dodge. If he jumps, keep shielding (or jump and aerial him first if your character is fast enough). If he shields, grab him (he can't punish you even if he spotdodges). If he does something on the ground, spot dodge. All Ganon's stuff is slow enough to react to from this position. If he sits there and does nothing, just throw a retreated aerial out of shield. If he shields it, you can just reapproach in the same manner and reset the situation. If he tries to shield every time, just grab him. You can also just space a lot of moves on his shield, and he can't do anything about it. These are the reasons Ganon was terrible in vBrawl. Now, in BBrawl, Ganon hits you really hard, but at peak play, he still can't hit you. With no speed or range buffs to any moves, his core problem and the reason he's bottom on the tier list still exists.

Also, you can still edgeguard Ganon, you just have to be precise. It doesn't change any MUs from vBrawl. I've always felt that Ganon's best bet in this game is mixing up Dash Grab and Dash Attack. Spot dodge covers both, but can get punished the hardest. Those are Ganon's fastest ground moves in terms of approach and usablity (and dash grab is pretty pitiful.) Eventually, the opponent will start approaching after eating massive damage from your grab, and then you can use mix-ups. Still, Ganon is pretty terrible.

None of these things... actually work as you say.

Zelda has always been terrible. I'm not going to get into that, I just think it's the most ignorant decision to make Din's Fire leave her vulnerable. She has low mobility and falls slow, with low aerial range, on aerials that all need to sweetspot (well, Uair isn't helping here, and Nair has the least range). Her recovery is pitifully obvious and punishable. Here's how to edgeguard Zelda in three easy steps.

Din's Fire wouldn't really help... her mobility though.

1. If she's near the stage, jump off and hit her. Repeat until she must recover from a distance, because her UpB has awful start up.

Second jump... and air dodge.

2. When Zelda is far offstage and you can't hit her for free, wait until she initiates the start of her UpB. Then hog the ledge. Zelda cannot mindgame anyone after she reappears, because she has NO mobility.

Correct choice.

3. Since she was far off the stage, she'll reappear somewhere near you onstage with a lot of lag. Quickly get up, and throw her back off the stage. If you're unable to send her off the stage, just hit her with something. She'll have a reasonable amount of damage, and she fails against opponent's that can poke her, so she'll be offstage again soon.

Throws can be DI'd... it's just a free hit...

Now, we can assume that people will not play perfectly, and that they will make mistakes, Ganon can use mindgames, and he will hit hard. This makes him semi-viable, because we're humans, not drones. However, trying to argue that he's not bottom 3 in the game on paper, and that he's not relying on his opponents making mistakes is just denial.

Since no character has an option that beats every one of ganon's options... ganon doesn't have to rely on his opponents making mistakes... that's a gross exaggeration.

The same is true for Zelda. Her UpSmash is her saving grace here, because it shield stabs, making it a viable approach. I know you think Zelda should be bad because of Sheik, and that's fine, but I will say this: when I'm fighting Zelda/Shiek players, and they switch to Zelda to kill me at high percents, I get super happy, and end up removing anywhere from 70% to a stock before getting hit once. The player would've been much better off just camping with Sheik and racking me up to like 220%, rather than just getting tossed around as Zelda in almost every instance. Don't jump into the ****, and watch for fsmash, and Zelda just sucks.

Fight better... Zelda players.

Ike's grab range is not very impressive. And his grab reward is pretty lame if his opponent doesn't fall for anything stupid. His throws never kill until like 180% either, so his grab game is never really much of a threat.

B-air is NOT safe on block unless you were retreating it right from the tip.

One or the other... it doesn't have to be both.

To give you an idea how unsafe on block Ike is, Mario can literally Up-smash or B-air out of shield whenever Ike does anything not named well-spaced F-air/Jab and it will almost always hit Ike. This is one reason why Mario clearly won the matchup vs Ike (not to mention, Ike gets juggled and pressured in the air easily, Up-B can beat his Jab, and smart fireball camping has no disadvantages against him).

I just tested...
Dtilt Usmash failed
Ftilt Usmash failed
Utilt Usmash failed
Dsmash Usmash failed
Fsmash Usmash failed
Usmash Usmash failed
Nair Usmash failed
Dair Usmash succeeded
Bair Usmash failed
Uair Mario is too short
Forward-B Usmash failed
Up-B Usmash failed

Link also beat Ike because he could shieldgrab everything Ike could do (don't tell me retreating F-air. It's not viable when Link camps).

Jab... Link's grab is too slow for jab... it exchanged range for speed.

Ike's F-air can be powershielded ON REACTION. That's how slow it is.

People's reaction times... diminish profoundly... when multitasking... i.e. you'd have to predict and react.

In general Ike is extremely linear and doesn't really have much he can do if his opponent can deal with his Jab and F-air effectively. Along with Zelda, I believe he's the most linear character in the game.

Though I agree... you grossly over-exaggerate Ike's shortcomings.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Every character has an option that beats every one of Ganondorf's options. Even Ganondorf can do this to himself. Shield, and spotdodge if he starts up Flame Choke/Dashgrab. If he does any moves in this situation and his opponent knows how to react, he's screwed.

And you would be surprised how much this "theorycrafting" actually applies. Has anyone played someone on the level of teh_spammerer? I bet not. I've seen what a good player can do to Ganondorf. It's the most depressing thing ever.

 

[blakinola]

I'm gonna have to agree with A2Z...Even with Ganon's buffs, he's still kind of a pushover, even though he can murder people better.

The problem I find worst is that the dtilt trip isn't guaranteed after the flame choke--some characters don't even have to buffer the **** roll to anticipate the next move. Techchasing doesn't play as well as it could. I played against a lot of mario vs ganon and his speed is his most limiting trait. He's a limbering oafy tower who is hard to maneuver around.

Ganon falls victim to disjointed hitboxes, extended hitboxes on attacks (DK's ftilt comes to mind) and character mobility greater than his.

So he has good matchups against...physically larger characters. And they aren't even amazing matchups.


As for the Zelda business:

If Zelda ever comes from below with up+B against anyone with half a nervous system, then she only has one place to go--and that's the bottom blastzone.

 

[18.15.2.15x12.9.14.11]

Every character has an option that beats every one of Ganondorf's options. Even Ganondorf can do this to himself. Shield, and spotdodge if he starts up Flame Choke/Dashgrab.

Ganon's has options other than attacking.
Also, ganon could shield instead of dash grab... and follow up with an attack after the invincibility frames end... so that option fails... or just usmash.

If he does any moves in this situation and his opponent knows how to react, he's screwed.

This... is the case for every character.

And you would be surprised how much this "theorycrafting" actually applies. Has anyone played someone on the level of teh_spammerer? I bet not. I've seen what a good player can do to Ganondorf. It's the most depressing thing ever.

I have... a while back... I got destroyed... but not as ganon. Generally, good players do depressing things... to bad players... not to bad characters (sans infinites and the like).

I'm gonna have to agree with A2Z...Even with Ganon's buffs, he's still kind of a pushover, even though he can murder people better.

The problem I find worst is that the dtilt trip isn't guaranteed after the flame choke--some characters don't even have to buffer the **** roll to anticipate the next move. Techchasing doesn't play as well as it could. I played against a lot of mario vs ganon and his speed is his most limiting trait. He's a limbering oafy tower who is hard to maneuver around.

It is... against Mario, Zelda, Sheik, Peach, Ness, Sonic, Falcon, Lucas, Pikachu, Toon Link, Pit, ZSS, Kirby, G&W, Diddy, MK, Ivysaur, Charizard, Ike, Yoshi, IC, D3, Rob, Olimar, and Jigglypuff.

Ganon falls victim to disjointed hitboxes, extended hitboxes on attacks (DK's ftilt comes to mind) and character mobility greater than his.

Most characters do... in theory.

So he has good matchups against...physically larger characters. And they aren't even amazing matchups.

Wouldn't this contradict... the prior statement (not from you, but from your side) that ganon... has no good matchups?

As for the Zelda business:

If Zelda ever comes from below with up+B against anyone with half a nervous system, then she only has one place to go--and that's the bottom blastzone.

Don't recover low... as Zelda.

 

[JOE!]

the problem with ganondorf as a whole is that his natural attributes make him very easy to overcome in a match.

he actually needs to work by catching an opponent off a mistake, or just off-gaurd. No other character needs to rely on opponent action to control the match..

Even Falcon and Link (vBrawl) had ways of turning the match in their favor either by Camping, Pressure or even Combos to force THE OPPONENT to act.

Ganon has to rely on READING the opponent completley, and has no real way of controlling the battle naturally like Link or Falcon do. He IS the controlled opponent 90% of the time.

Ganon is like the guy with the knife in a gun fight: he only has a chance if the guy with the gun jams or runs out of ammo, but even then it is iffy

 

[blakinola]

I mean to say good in terms of the upgraded quality from VBrawl to BBrawl.

Have you even *played* Ganon in Bbrawl? Cause it seems like you're just here to disprove stuff without a lot of evidence.

And Ganon can't camp.

 

[Thinkaman]

Every character has an option that beats every one of Ganondorf's options. Even Ganondorf can do this to himself. Shield, and spotdodge if he starts up Flame Choke/Dashgrab. If he does any moves in this situation and his opponent knows how to react, he's screwed.

I really want to play you sometime, with the stipulation that you can only do anything after blocking or spotdodging an attack.

Anyhow, I just did some frame-by-frame analysis. Against Snake, Ganon's d-tilt is safe on block at max range. (Was trying to punish with a frame perfect dash attack)

Fun trivia: A fully shielded u-tilt, including PSing the first hit, will break a shield. Not important, don't get me wrong... but pretty funny.

 

[18.15.2.15x12.9.14.11]

the problem with ganondorf as a whole is that his natural attributes make him very easy to overcome in a match.

he actually needs to work by catching an opponent off a mistake, or just off-gaurd. No other character needs to rely on opponent action to control the match..

What you are basically saying... is that Ganon interacts with his opponent... as every character does.

Even Falcon and Link (vBrawl) had ways of turning the match in their favor either by Camping, Pressure or even Combos...

Every character has ways... of turning the match in their favor.

Ganon has to rely on reading the opponent completley,

It's not that hard... completely is an unnecessary word... reads are either correct... or incorrect. There is no... middle ground.

and has no real way of controlling the battle naturally:

What do you mean... by this?

He is like the guy with the knife in a gun fight: he only has a chance if the guy with the gun jams or runs out of ammo, but even then it is iffy

How is it iffy... a jammed gun/a gun out of ammo < a knife.

 

[JOE!]

I mean to say good in terms of the upgraded quality from VBrawl to BBrawl.

Have you even *played* Ganon in Bbrawl? Cause it seems like you're just here to disprove stuff without a lot of evidence.

And Ganon can't camp.

i have, he is definatley much better, and his bufffs fit his rather unique attribute of "imma kill ya if i get ya" style of taking advantage of mistakes

EDIT @ numbers guy:
1) why, do you talk....like william shatner? ()

What I am saying is, that ganon is so slow and laggy, that pretty much every character in the game can "sandbag" him, meaning just walk all over him as long as they are on their game.

Ganon has no way to really do this to other characters, UNLESS they mess up, and fall into a trap of ganon's (get caught in a choke combo or such) no other character has to RELY SO HEAVILY on opponent mistakes to get the lead.