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Balanced Brawl Standard Release

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A2ZOMG

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well my bro and i just got done playing. he mains mario i main luigi. my bro is pretty disapointed with the changes for mario. he was hoping mario would get a better buff... i kinda agree with him.

the changes with luigi doesnt really seem to have any significant effect... fireball speed increase is kinda dumb. the fireball in normal brawl is an extension of luigi not really a projectile that you spam like tls arrow or w/e. it seems like the devs in balanced brawl tried to turn it into that. imo there was no need for fireball "pressure" when luigi has his tornado... but anyway i always thought luigi was fine the way he was in normal brawl so it doesnt make a difference for me.

will be playing in a bbrawl tourny and ill give another opinion then but for now i dont see myself playing bbrawl
Luigi's DA buff is extremely useful. It's one of his better options for punishing lag on the ground, and it gives pretty good pressure on shields and at the ledge. It's better than Tornado in that it's more consistent at landing the final "safe" hit.

And seriously, Mario is extremely good in BBrawl. His Up-smash has comparable power to vSnake's U-tilt (and has the advantage of being able to be done directly out of shield. 9 frame Up-smash is awesome out of shield, and KOs DDD at 128%). B-throw is almost as strong as Ness's, so Jab cancel B-throw is SUPER SUPER good. D-smash is ridiculously strong, basically the new MK D-smash in this game (keep in mind, D-smash is also safe on block, which makes Mario even better). What makes Mario so good is that his out of shield game is very fast and able to kill. This gives Mario overall the most reliable KO moves in the game.

Not forgetting that Mario's F-smash is only outranged slightly by Wolf, Falco, and DDD's F-smash.
 

Fox Hater

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I saw some good combos on the Showcase but there was no DI and people were spaming dodges. Were any of does combos 100% sure to hit or were just to show off???
 

A2ZOMG

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I saw some good combos on the Showcase but there was no DI and people were spaming dodges. Were any of does combos 100% sure to hit or were just to show off???
Lol, combos in Brawl.

There still aren't many guaranteed combo setups, but keep in mind, setup angles of attacks have been improved for the most part. Especially on Captain Falcon.
 

DanGR

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Initial thoughts.

I gotta say, I didn't expect the changes in knockback direction and damage dealt to change a whole lot. For example, I love Jiggs dash attack as a killer/edgeguard setup in BB now, and nair as tech chase setup.

That said, the characters that sucked in regular brawl are still bad in this one.
Falcon still can't approach decently.
Jiggs is still too floaty.
Link is terrible at recovering.
Bowser even got worse, I think. lol.

Also! Big Blue is still stupid. If it's ever a CP in a BB tourney, I'd never attend.
The temple is better... but still a bad stage. What are you going to do to an MK that sits in that little pocket in the middle? xD
 

SaltyKracka

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Actually, most people here believe that Link is very improved. Not recovery-wise, of course, but with the newly strengthened moves that he's gotten (arrows are so very good now), his recovery is just about the only weakness he has, albeit a glaring one. Falcon and Jiggs....I dunno. Don't play them. And yes, I do think that Boozer has probably dropped, considering how much his game relied on grab-releases.

Also, nobody here really expects anybody to use Temple, and nobody use BB anyways, because of the bad memories and poor layout.
 

DanGR

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What makes Link bad in regular brawl is still here. It's just that his damage and kill power went up. He's not as bad as he was, definitely, but still totally useless against the top tier characters. There's no point in taking the time to buff a character that will still see no good use.

Well, big blue and temple are listed as counterpick/banned. I'm just saying that I think it's a terrible idea to include either of them.

Also, I feel that Wario took much, much less of a shot than the rest of the top tier characters. In fact, I'd say he improved and is now the best character, haha.

edit: I swear I just saw a "vote now" button in the advanced options. Whaaa??
 

Mit

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What makes Link bad in regular brawl is still here. It's just that his damage and kill power went up. He's not as bad as he was, definitely, but still totally useless against the top tier characters. There's no point in taking the time to buff a character that will still see no good use.
Here's how you should think of Link: He's a heavyweight character with the scariest projectiles in the game.

His kill power (and overall power for that matter) rivals other heavyweights in the game, he's got more ground/attack speed than most of them, and he has one of the best projectiles in the game now (arrows), along with a boomerang and bombs to chuck around.

If he could recover well he'd be broken.

Anyhow, thinking of him as a heavyweight, his recovery isn't that bad, and he's even got a grapple recovery (that can be refreshed three times to renew invincibility frames and edgehog...)


Don't worry, Link is good.
 

A2ZOMG

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What makes Link bad in regular brawl is still here. It's just that his damage and kill power went up. He's not as bad as he was, definitely, but still totally useless against the top tier characters. There's no point in taking the time to buff a character that will still see no good use.
Link could be a homo vs Snake if played super conservatively (much like Samus, he can really camp Snake very effectively and put Snake in tough positions). His recovery isn't unworkably bad. You just have to have really good DI (well, doesn't save you against MK and G&W, but you can camp more against them without having to worry about grenades being thrown at you).

The arrow buff is very meaningful. It helps you keep your opponents away from you and potentially set up a few more ledge traps. Link's Up-B buff is SUPER good. In my honest opinion, Link's main problem was a lack of KO power really. His D-air was a situational attack at best, and most importantly, his Up-B, F-smash, and F-tilt never killed early enough. The last three moves I mentioned all got knockback buffs, ESPECIALLY Up-B, which uncharged reliably KOs at 90%. Fully charged, it KOs at like 40-50%. Link's Up-B is a very terrifying out of shield option in BBrawl, very much able to now compete with Marth's Up-B in terms of usefulness.

Honestly, I think of Link in a way that I think of Olimar. His recovery is terrible, but he has some decent attacks and can camp/zone pretty well. With good KO power, it's OK he has a bad recovery. I think Link is the 3rd most improved character in this game, after Mario and Samus.

Also, I feel that Wario took much, much less of a shot than the rest of the top tier characters. In fact, I'd say he improved and is now the best character, haha.
I agree with this statement except that I think Marth is the best character in BBrawl. I think Wario is still 3rd best, with G&W being 2nd best in BBrawl.

That said, the characters that sucked in regular brawl are still bad in this one.
Falcon still can't approach decently.
Jiggs is still too floaty.
Link is terrible at recovering.
Bowser even got worse, I think. lol.

Also! Big Blue is still stupid. If it's ever a CP in a BB tourney, I'd never attend.
The temple is better... but still a bad stage. What are you going to do to an MK that sits in that little pocket in the middle? xD
Falcon actually could approach decently in high level play. He has the run speed to be a homo, and he DOES have stuff that is safe on block. Falcon's biggest problem was that the stuff he could use safely had no reward. imo, that's been addressed pretty well. Although a lack of priority does make MK and G&W pretty hard to deal with...

Jiggs being too floaty doesn't matter when her mobility is stupidly good.

As I said about Link, his real problem was a lack of good KO moves. You know you're horrible at KOs when Toon Link overall KOs at lower percents than you do...

Yes, Bowser is worse. He's still unsafe on block and many characters who already had ways of dealing with camping effectively got significantly more powerful.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Bowser is definitely not worse. In the end, grab release was a gimmick that was very uneven in effectiveness. Bowser loses that, but he also loses the assorted stupid ways he could be abused that made him honestly quite horrible (I don't want to use a character for whom the main question is how many characters can chaingrab him and how big his disadvantage is in that very large number of matchups) and gets more solid bread and butter reliable stuff.

Bowser simply did not beat King Dedede in standard Brawl if the skill level was even close. Keep that in mind when evaluating whether he's improved, though I think even that aside he has a much more solid base now. Those little buffs all over the place do matter a lot more than people want to give them credit for.
 

A2ZOMG

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Bowser is worse off on the tier list. Mainly, he's not a very safe character, and outpatiencing him wears him out. Also hurting him is his ridiculously bad recovery. His recovery is in my opinion, a candidate for the worst in this game. It's the most predictable, and pretty easily punished, if not gimped. Hurting him even more is how easily he's juggled. Seriously, Bowser CAN'T recover safely if the stage is not BF.

Several characters who were fundamentally safer got more significant power buffs, meaning Bowser doesn't overpower his opponent to the same degree he may have in vBrawl.
 

JOE!

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yeah, bowser definatley got worse IMO....the grab releases were gimicky, but were a way to control the opponent and setup into shenannigans...

anywho:

What happened to all the PT hype? Wasnt everyone saying he could be the new best? ranked #1? o.O

Ive allways liked him, but hated Ivy in vBrawl...which put me off of the character as a whole...

Now that she's more rewarding <.<
 

A2ZOMG

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I guess the PT is cool and decently improved and viable. Switching still isn't completely safe although better, Squirtle carries most of the weight since he's the only one that can really KO safely, and fatigue still sucks. But I guess Ivysaur is a fair bit better with that recovery buff (recovery still sucks, just isn't automatically edgehogged by a 5 year old anymore). Ivysaur's D-smash not being useless anymore also helps.

I'm convinced the overall best is still Marth anyhow. Best mix of zoning + overall power.
 

Thinkaman

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I've played a significant amount more myself so I am going to dump all my impressions here.

Mario:
I really can't at all see Mario as especially above the rest of the cast; in all matches I've seen he just doesn't naturally excel. He's just vastly better and underestimated by no one. Almost every Mario match I've seen has come down to the last stock either way.

Luigi:
Not played much, but people use the buffs a decent amount and he is never, ever an easy matchup. Even as MK I don't feel like I have much of an advantage against Luigi now.

Peach:
I've played her a bit but no one else around here does. I do decently, but since I can't keep up with the mains of other characters with her, I shouldn't talk too much.

Bowser:
I'm starting to take back previous misgivings about Bowser. I can't argue with the facts, Bowser seems to be winning a majority of his matches around here. I even beat peoples' mains with him, and it's not just me; I've seen other people do very well with him too. The dair and up-b buffs are the real reasons, though fair damage helps a bit.

DK:
Used some, does decently.

Diddy:
Alt-F4 really surprised me last night by pulling out a great Diddy, and in BBrawl he was certainly able to hang with anyone.

Yoshi:
Yoshi continues to do pretty well, but not amazing. Egg braking is something no one can get used to around here.

Wario:
The more I actually play Wario myself the more I appreciate that his nerfs really do matter a lot. Calling out uairs and f-smashes "that would have killed you in normal Brawl!" is like my new hobby while playing him. My matches almsot always come down to me missing a fart that would have won it, and then losing. Alas.

Link:
...has been played surprisingly less recently.

Sheik/Zelda:
Have been played a lot more, both solo and combined. Sheik seems to always have trouble killing when I watch people play, and Zelda seems to always be doing less damage to the opponent. Then again, I saw one match where the guy damaged as Zelda, switched to kill with a Sheik d-smash, and switched back. You're doing it wrong...? Can't argue with results...

Ganondorf:
Is doing extremely well. Like, to the point where if Ganon continues to win this much in matches I see, I'm going to start getting worried. Random people do pretty solid jobs with him, but whenever I see TP or myself play, Ganon makes stuff happen and gets the job done pretty consistently.

Toon Link:
I've only seen Toon Link played a little, and what I saw he won. Dunno.

Samus:
All recent Samus play I've seen has amounted to her losing at a high percent on the last stock. No one around here is a solid Samus main though.

Zamus:
I've seen a few Zamus matches recently, and I keep seeing the paralyzer buff coming into play more than I'd expect.

Pit:
No recent Pit play at all.

ICs:
Future was doing pretty excellent with ICs in the few matches I saw him play. He would only get about 3 chaingrabs in a row, which led to pretty massive damage regardless... I'm pretty sure he won every match he played as ICs.

ROB:
Multiple players did pretty well with ROB, though nothing really amazing. The throw buffs come up a lot. ROB definitely wins his fair share.

Kirby:
Haven't seen much lately.

MK:
MK wins if he gets at least one gimp, otherwise loses. Definitely taken down a notch, but not a single person has suggested that he was overnerfed. People are still afraid when he gets picked.

DDD:
I've been doing pretty great as BBrawl DDD, winning a large majority of my matches with him. No one else wants to play him though.

Olimar:
Olimar isn't played much, but wins more than he loses. Pretty solid.

Fox:
I played a little Fox although no one else around here did. I recall winning all those matches, although they were close?

Falco:
Falco has been doing pretty darn good for himself, another character who seems to be winning more than he is losing around here...

Wolf:
Wolf comes up a lot but it looks like no one in St. Louis knows how to play him well. Most Wolf deaths are SDs... This is clearly not indicative of high level play; St. Louis is good with a bunch of different characters, but it seems we are all terrible with Wolf.

Falcon:
Falcon has been played a large amount and has done quite well. No one has complained about having any difficulty winning with Falcon, as he does it pretty often.

Pikachu:
Minimal play recently.

PT:
I've used PT a great deal. I had been doign very, very well with him, 2-stocking most people consistently, but yesterday it seemed people were figuring him out and I was on more equal footing. Still a really really good character though.

Lucario:
Not played much.

Jigglypuff:
Jigglypuff has done decently in the very few matches she's been in. I do fine with her of course, but others seem to enjoy a decent amount of success.

Marth:
Played a medium amount, does decently. Probably wins about half.

Ike:
Played minimally lately. Wins more than he loses, it seems.

Ness:
Ness has done a pretty solid job. I can win a very large % of the time with my Ness, though others are much closers to half.

Lucas:
Lucas seems to be easily picked up and extremely effective. Definitely wins more than he loses. I comfortably 2-stocked people close to me in skill with Lucas a few times. One to watch out for.

G&W:
Played almost none. I used him once and won.

Snake:
A lot of snake play, especially in doubles. Snake definitely does well. Slightly more emphasis on aerials now, for KO power. when snake is wanting an aerial but no opportunity for one exists, he is probably losing.

Sonic:
Sonic in the hands of Chezzles does pretty excellent. Not much else to say.

Now... I really, really need sleep.
 

Steeler

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just to clear something up, wifi training room doesn't work in special group mode either. i usually play special when i'm alone just so it won't affect the records in my game. :p
 

MK26

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http://www.mediafire.com/?zj2oddmz0yy for ZSS fix!
I would love a code that works in standard battles, special brawl, rotation, tournament, training, and WiFi, but it really just doesn't exist. Sorry about that.
$10 says that the custom stage select screen code does all that. unfortunately, it has the side-effect of causing the replay section of the vault to freeze if there are replays present that were taken with a different SSS code, or no custom SSS at all. The replays themselves are unaffected (of course they desynch, but if you reload the old codeset, they still work), but people think that the replay menu freezing is too much of a bug to use the code.
 

Lokee

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yeah, bowser definatley got worse IMO....the grab releases were gimicky, but were a way to control the opponent and setup into shenannigans...

anywho:

What happened to all the PT hype? Wasnt everyone saying he could be the new best? ranked #1? o.O

Ive allways liked him, but hated Ivy in vBrawl...which put me off of the character as a whole...

Now that she's more rewarding <.<
I have the feeling Pokemon Trainer will end up being the most versatile character in the game. Now if only Stamina could be extended even a tiny bit.

Also I hope Ganon is doing well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXUrsYT_fkU

I just had to post this :laugh:.

It's a joke match really, being wifi friendlies and MrEsc sure as hell not playing lucas, but still :laugh:.
OHHH MAH GAWD! well at least it was cool. However that kind of chase it definitely possible with Ganon now so if ever happens in advanced play I wont be surprized.
 

Pierce7d

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My computer got a virus (not from this of course) but it'll be repaired by the end of today. That's why I've been absent. I'm using my sister's right now, and I still have my internet channel (thank god I have a spare USB Keyboard as well)

I had my SD cards scanned, and they are not infected. I just made sure my Balanced Brawl was back online after my dad scanned the SDs.

I also got my other SD card back so I can move my custom stages! Yay for not needing Homebrew, so I can play at my friends' houses with just my SD! Super amazing since school is about to start.

Enough about me though. I'm basically going to just agree with A2zomg from what I've read, and I'm going to try and hook up with some friends today so I can actually get some real playtesting done. And Steeler, I also use Special Brawl for that :D.

Cadet, I'm not sure if you already solved this issue, but if you don't want to change tons of file names, just rename the folder which they are in.

Mario is good, there are just few good Marios. Link is good, but he has a really high learning curve.

I'd also bet that Marth is the best character in this game now, but he's also got a high learning curve, and I don't think he shuts down any MUs, especially with GRs gone, so it seems you're doing alright.

I'd guess Mario is a bit better than Wario now though. I really need to play to get a tier list constructed.
 

Linkshot

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I played a lot of Yoshi last night.

He's amazing. Definitely top half of the cast. I might pick him up as a secondary to Mario.

At HGARB's video, I actually said "HOLY ****!" at the 0-death.
 

A2ZOMG

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I'm gonna say, I randomly used Snake a few times, and I adapted to him fairly well.

He's still stupidly hard to deal with, but basically I just memorize vBrawl Mario's U-smash KO percents and save U-tilt until those percents, and I still get KOs pretty easily. It's still stupidly easy to pick him up at a n00b level just because of his hitbox sizes and speed, and grenades and D-throw are still as stupid as ever. He's no longer 2nd best since his U-tilt no longer has OVERKILL power (and F-tilt doing less damage also makes it take longer to get ppl to that KO%), but he's still ridiculously brutal when using all his options correctly.

Basically, Snake is still a top contender. Trading hits is a bit more reasonable against him, but he's still got all the options.
 

Linkshot

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Snake will always be a top contender simply due to the character he is: He's a special ops from an M for Mature game with guns, explosives, blood, and neck snapping.

Nintendo environments **** their pants at his very presence.
 

JOE!

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I think yoshi may have Ftilt locks on DDD, and other low air speed characters due to increased hitlag and lowered KB...

need to check this out...
 

DarkPhoenix87

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Balanced Brawl, and the idea behind all Brawl hacks, in addition to the Dolphin emulator (dunno if you're allowed to discuss emulators here, haven't been here in a long time, and maybe I'm spoiled by the freedom of other boards...if you aren't allowed, mods, please go ahead and delete this post rather than edit it or contact me) changes the fundamental way Nintendo's fans do business with Nintendo.

By editing the game, not just in flashy ways, but in ways that improve the balance of the game, we are showing Nintendo that we aren't going to put up with an unbalanced and unpatched game, and encourage more gametesting. Also some of the character edits can serve as a big "hint hint" to Nintendo that these are characters we want included. I personally can't wait for someone to make Geno, and if I get a Wii and copy of Brawl (I'm an old-time Melee player, and I haven't bought a Wii since I moved out) and someone hasn't made one yet I might just have to.

The idea that fans can edit their game is new to Nintendo, and the idea that they can emulate a new system, is game-changing. There will be a couple of reactions that I see as rational for Nintendo to take, please comment if you agree or disagree:

- The next system will get back into the arms race, to allow them to keep a timed monopoly on the system that plays new games.
- Their games (especially SSB4) will be more customizable
- Their games will have access to patches to fix post-release problems, such as (again talking about SSB4; an easy example) infinites, imbalance, and, let's be honest, anything that the creators and players of Balanced Brawl saw fit to include, change, and/or keep.
- Nintendo will finally realize the value of their fans in the game creation process, and include players in balancing and play testing.

Or, their next system will be so locked down, so complicated, and so inaccessible it's impossible to edit or emulate.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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To be completely honest, this project and basically everything you discusses are probably irrelevant to Nintendo. You misrepresent our motivations, but that aside... We represent a petty percentage of their sales, and we are fairly revenue neutral to them anyway (Balanced Brawl certainly doesn't discourage people from buying a copy of Brawl). Their best bet, and the one they'll probably pursue, is to simply ignore us as though we never existed.
 

JOE!

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the main problem with getting nintendo to balance Smash is that we competitive smashers are actually in the minority of the amount of people who bought Smash.

Most consumers are either casual or kids. We dont cover enough of a % to truly matter all too much to one of Nintendo's biggest money makers for them to meld the game for us.

That is not to say, that they wont ever make smash into a balanced fighter, with the same elements of Items and other sillyness. It is just competitive balance is not a concern for them.
 

LordshadowRagnarok

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The sad thing is Nintendo fails to grasp the liscence to print money they passed up... Any number of smash fans, casual and hardcore would pay $20 - $30 for one new character, two new levels, and some patches..
 

SaltyKracka

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I'd rather not have Nintendo become the new Capcom.

Also, nothing. They try to give characters tools, but nothing really mitigates the effectiveness.
 

codfish92

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LSR has a point there.

So what does BBrawl do against planking, aircamping, and the like?
the only way to stop planking would to remove invincibility frames from the ledge.

air camping can really only be stopped by making gravity 5x as much

those things are just elements that can't be modified without drastically modifying physics.

so nothing has been done
 

LordshadowRagnarok

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Fun Fact: BBrawl is starting to catch on in the Twin Cities area of MN, not by a huge amount, but it's beginning to get from: "We're playing a modded version of Brawl. Brawl+?" to "We're playing a modded version of Brawl. Brawl+ or BBrawl?"
 
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So you can be just as gay in BBrawl as in normal brawl. And Metaknight and Wario will be more encouraged to do so due to the nerfing of their kill moves.... Yeah.

So I tried out BBrawl today with my friend. The result: a resounding "...meh.". It was fun for a little while, checking out all the gimmicks and new things characters got, but we quickly came to the conclusion that BBrawl is too close to vBrawl for our tastes and that, after over a month of only Brawl+, we didn't feel like switching back to a game where the action was less fast-paced.

On the other hand, I'm gonna have to get used to it anyways if I can't get brawl+ to work when I go back to europe (although I may be without a friend's Wii for a relatively long time; hell, without internet too). Meh.

In general, I think what ruined balanced brawl for me was Brawl+. It spoiled me. I now want to combo, I now want my ganon to be able to approach with aerials, I now want utilt->rest, and I now ***** when I can't get them. But the way that planking and aircamping (along with a multitude of other gay strategies) were not removed or changed, or even discouraged, along with that... Yeah.
 
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