Meta Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion

[Splice]

Also the Pika+G&W thing was possible in Brawl and not banned iirc (someone correct me if I'm wrong), the video you linked I think is more likely an extreme example due to unfortunate spacing and probably not knowing what to expect (not to mention G&W had two sources of thunder) rather than of the true dominance of the strategy. It is a pretty strong strategy though.
).

Gonna correct ya coz you asked for it.
Pikachu Thunder in G&W bucket was not an instakill in Brawl. If you fill GnW's bucket up 3 times with ZSS Dsmash in Brawl, than that was an instakill, like this. And guess what? It was banned, in some states of the USA (Notably Texas)

Either way you shouldn't ban this thanks

 

[EverAlert]

Fair enough, I really wasn't sure if I was remembering that right haha.

Yo Splice I occasionally used to play Pikachu in doubles. We should team in Smash 4 sometime because... reasons.

 

[Shaya]

I don't know about regular charge, but a fully charged samus neutral b charges up bucket.

 

[Zxv]

@Archaze Your argument is kind of based on the assumption that covering options doesn't require any investment other than knowledge, but it does. Imagine your opponent's neutral B move has 3 different ranges and you do not know which one they have equipped. How do you cover the option of your opponent using their neutral B? You simply have to keep the maximum range of all of them away from your opponent, regardless of whichever one he has equipped. This means there is a level of strategy to not showing what moves you have equipped so you retain the element of surprise. This is a level of gameplay I don't really agree with since it doesn't add much and In addition to spacing, there are timing issues, e.g. Falcon punch. I believe one of the modifications is significantly faster than the rest. If you don't know which one your opponent has, you're probably going to mistime your shield and either:
a) die
b) not powershield and potentially miss your counterattack

Of course, all of this can be circumvented by enforcing that players disclose their moveset prior to the match, so it may never become an issue. I just wanted to communicate some problems I can foresee.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Are they editable? Also, are they the same across regions?

no, yes

 

[EverAlert]

Damn, that could work then.

 

[Jamwa]

Gonna correct ya coz you asked for it.
Pikachu Thunder in G&W bucket was not an instakill in Brawl. If you fill GnW's bucket up 3 times with ZSS Dsmash in Brawl, than that was an instakill, like this. And guess what? It was banned, in some states of the USA (Notably Texas)

Either way you shouldn't ban this thanks

u sure it didnt? i remember you could fill up the bucket with one thunder if GnW positioned himself correctly under pikachu as the thunder hit pikachu (when it was strongest) so that might be different.
probs not instakill but it'd be close. in sm4sh it seems way stronger but it could be

 

[TakFR]

No way i'm entering teams if that **** is legal

 

[Splice]

No way i'm entering teams if that **** is legal

why not? putting pressure on the opponent too hard?
the GnW pika vs GnW pika vid means jack **** I hope you realise

 

[Shaya]

Rosalina, Falco, Villager, etc.

I'm singing a song with that one line, it goes beautifully in my mind.

For what it's worth I believe the team got banned in Houston for their first tournament, the home of liberal rulesets. Logic being that it'll likely be the only 3DS tournament run before WiiU comes out.

 

[Splice]

While I agree with you, in the sense that those characters would wreck GnW, you'll have to test that Shaya.
Bucket has never been a projectile in the past, it's a disjoint. If it's the same in this game, pocketing and reflecting it won't be a thing.

Mario's cape would work but that's not gonna hurt GnW, the true counter is characters with counter; Ike Marth Lucario etc.

 

[TakFR]

It just seems way to easy to escape pressure in this game at the moment, with the 3ds it just makes this tactic look so incredibly easy to use while the other team fails to pressure or even hit them while running away and charging the bucket

 

[Star ☆]

Since hazards are removed on certain stages when there's 4 players Matt G, Final Force, Tomo and I found that Rainbow Road is a very good stage for doubles.

 

[Rad]

*I don't know how to delete !y post*

 

[Lex__]

why not? putting pressure on the opponent too hard?
the GnW pika vs GnW pika vid means jack **** I hope you realise

I takes 1 second to jump into pikachus thunder, he doesnt even have to be standing still do it, all he has to do is jump into it.

 

[Splice]

I takes 1 second to jump into pikachus thunder, he doesnt even have to be standing still do it, all he has to do is jump into it.

If Game and watch is offstage and doesn't have any jumps left then he can't even use jump.

My suggestion implied that you are going to keep the two of them apart. Unlike Melee, if one player decided he wanted to hug his teammate in Brawl it's very easy for two stage-control characters to shred them. Neither you or me know if it's too hard to keep GnW and Pikachu apart yet, having a OHKO is not the be all and end all though and that's mindset many people have.

 

[EverAlert]

If it's the same in this game, pocketing and reflecting it won't be a thing.

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2io2nv/a_list_of_all_pocketable_items_for_villager/
rip villager

 

[Splice]

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2io2nv/a_list_of_all_pocketable_items_for_villager/
rip villager

Thanks for confirming.
Basically, Shaya, My man G-dubz poops on your sad attempts to counter his OP glass cannon OHKO moves.

However, he also requests that you don't pick Ike.

 

[JKTS]

2 stock Bo5 or 3 stock Bo3 seems fine.

the true counter is characters with counter; Ike Marth Lucario etc.

Do the counters in sm4sh work like Roy's in melee. That is, does the damage output depend on the move that's being countered?

Also, my 2c on custom moves is that they need to be announced before started the match. I also think that unless the pool of moves gets whittled down a fair amount, they might need to be banned. 52 characters is already a huge roster, adding an extra 8 moves per matchup to the required learning means that there's a fairly steep learning curve

 

[Shaya]

Eh.

Considering that every character in Smash 4 is a Fox clone in terms of normals (Foxification) , we need characters having 8 extra moves to actually make them unique enough.

 

[Redact]

Learning curve is not a reason to ban anything.

This is a competitive community, and a learning curve is a benefit not a detriment.

 

[Shaya]

Actually it is, but that's a different argument for a different time.

We ban stages that take away or "add" features that aren't available elsewhere but are otherwise completely competitive; we don't expect players to have to focus on those skills as they contrast heavily with what is mostly focused on (flat/plat/edges/"fair" blast zones)

Example: Pokemon Stadium 2 in Brawl.

However, this is different, most character's moveset variations are small and if you know about a character, you may as well know about their custom specials. There really isn't an excuse for not knowing, the additional effort involved is meager compared to the entire "set" that you are expected to have under your belt as a competitive player.

 

[Redact]

The fact that there is a learning curve or not is not the reason for a ban on its own. Learning curve can be an aspect of whatever thing you're banning, but nothing gets banned purely because there is a learning curve involved.

Those other things you mentioned change the game in a way that its not just a learning curve, that it actually changes the gameplay in a detrimential way and thats why its been banned.

The example you listed was not banned because a learning curve was involved. The stage was completely messed up and a single transformation could change a matchup completely, and the actual changes were complete luck.

 

[Attila_]

Learning curve is not a reason to ban anything.

This is a competitive community, and a learning curve is a benefit not a detriment.

In brawl, metaknight had a number of matchups that were not considered that bad. But in order to play the matchups at the level, the learning curve was so bloody steep that the vast majority of players had stopped playing before they could get to that level.

Learning curves aren't always good, espc if they aren't uniform.

I don't like the way this discussion is going. I look forward to the meta in two years from now, when everyone has stopped experimenting with things that won't work, and will play the game we always knew we should play.

It's just a matter of how many players we will lose by that time.

 

[dreadtech]

Why is there an issue with not knowing if you know every option, and your opponent is limited to only one? Like any fighter, you play knowing what a character is capable of, whether it's switched on or not. It makes no difference at the end of the day, other than adding a layer of depth to play.

Put it this way. If all 12 moves were all on at the same time, would their be an issue? No, because you would accommodate for what a character is capable of. A number of other fighters have more possibilities, yet it would be an issue if only half could be switched on? That doesn't make any sense at all.

We also assume that anyone turning up has every stage and character unlocked. This is a standard for every version of Smash. Why are moves any different?

in SFIV, you openly pick your ultra move, even the hardcore fighting games know that matchup knowledge is important, I need to know ryu has his uppercut ultra or his fireball ultra cause both have completely different setups.

lets take it to smash 4, Little Mac's counter has a variation where it has a smaller window but then he zooms across the map when the counter triggers. This actually makes projectiles bad against him and it would be unfair if you just surprised people with it for free damage.

ZSS has a move variation that changes the angle and kills at a lower percent so I need to know the type of move so that I can VI properly, if I don't know, free damage for ZSS the first time she uses it or if she wants to keep it a secret, free stock.

I feel at the very least if we allow it there shouldn't be a clause that you are allowed to keep it a secret. The onus is on the competing player that once they know which version they need to understand themselves what it does when told "I'm using version 2 of sheiks down B, the one that travels on the ground", but to just say "nah fk you you have to find out when I use it on you" is kinda bs

Those are my thoughts anyway with customs

 

[JKTS]

This is a competitive community but what's good for competition isn't always what's good for the community. A learning curve is only good when it's a curve, if there's a huge wall of knoledge new players have to get over before they start having fun, my bet is there won't be a lot of new players.

As we don't know all that much about this game, we can't really come up with a rule set that's going to be perfect, whatever we start with will more than likely get changed in some way. So with that in mind I think as big an emphasis as possible should be put on making the rules and events inviting and fun for all players. Being new in a competitive community is already intimidating and I don't think having half the game being played out on the CSS will help.

 

[TakFR]

Not just SF4 Dread, I can't think of any competitive traditional fighter where people's moves and/or supers aren't either from a single set of moves, or shows which one the player picks at the character select screen (there are 3 supers in sf3 which are clearly shown to all which ones are picked even on the loading screen)

 

[DD_]

Not just SF4 Dread, I can't think of any competitive traditional fighter where people's moves and/or supers aren't either from a single set of moves, or shows which one the player picks at the character select screen (there are 3 supers in sf3 which are clearly shown to all which ones are picked even on the loading screen)

you can blind pick your arcana in arcana heart 3! BOOM

But no really blind isn't going to be an issue when wiiu drops so it's not that big a deal is it?

 

[EverAlert]

If you think custom moves are a huge wall of knowledge then you probably aren't going to put in the work to get good anyway.

 

[TakFR]

Not for people's first tournament, do you really expect everyone to have unlocked all of those movesets and gone through all of them within 2 weeks?

 

[EverAlert]

I don't expect much of anything in the first two weeks, and the first two weeks isn't the topic here.

 

[Gords]

Also, my 2c on custom moves is that they need to be announced before started the match. I also think that unless the pool of moves gets whittled down a fair amount, they might need to be banned. 52 characters is already a huge roster, adding an extra 8 moves per matchup to the required learning means that there's a fairly steep learning curve

Under what evidence would we base the "whittled down" move pool if custom moves are banned from the get go? The idea is to include all of them in the start and keep them there for at least 6-12 months, let the metagame adapt and figure things out in how to deal with certain moves/strategies before you deal with it by drastically changing the rules.

This is a competitive community but what's good for competition isn't always what's good for the community. A learning curve is only good when it's a curve, if there's a huge wall of knoledge new players have to get over before they start having fun, my bet is there won't be a lot of new players.

As we don't know all that much about this game, we can't really come up with a rule set that's going to be perfect, whatever we start with will more than likely get changed in some way. So with that in mind I think as big an emphasis as possible should be put on making the rules and events inviting and fun for all players. Being new in a competitive community is already intimidating and I don't think having half the game being played out on the CSS will help.

being told you cant use your favourite moves that you have been playing with for ages with your friends/siblings just because they are customs and they're banned is in no way inviting or fun for new players.
Its bad enough we already tell them they cant play on their favourite stage, we turn items off and now will be saying they have to take their equipment off as well.

I don't like the way this discussion is going. I look forward to the meta in two years from now, when everyone has stopped experimenting with things that won't work, and will play the game we always knew we should play.

how do you expect to find out what works and what doesnt if we dont do any experimenting.

Not for people's first tournament, do you really expect everyone to have unlocked all of those movesets and gone through all of them within 2 weeks?

do you really expect everyone to have gone through every characters default moves and matchups with the first 2 weeks? or even 2 months?

 

[Splice]

If you think custom moves are a huge wall of knowledge then you probably aren't going to put in the work to get good anyway.

This kinda just steps on peoples toes rather than making a good argument for your case.

JKTS makes a good point about what's good for the game competitively and what's good for the community, and he's right about it on principle
In this instance though, I believe custom moves (that are announced by both players) are not only going to add some kind of depth and extra learning curve, but are also going to be more exciting for a lot of new coming players. I also don't believe them to be jarring enough so as to alienate many old school players; most people are interested.

 

[Gords]

I wish i was as well spoken as @ Splice , ^ this is pretty much what i was aiming for when replying to JKTS, but I just come off sounding like a dic

 

[EverAlert]

Me too Gords. Actually I agree with JKTS in principle, I just don't think it applies to custom moves and felt that "huge wall of knowledge" was a bit of an exaggeration.

Also Tak, for what it's worth, I don't expect everyone to learn what all the custom moves are and do over the course of the entire game's lifespan, nevermind before the first tournament, nor do I expect everyone to diligently learn all their frame data and matchups and put the time they need to into practice and other things. Only a few players will actually do all that.

 

[Redact]

Huge walls of knowledge have never stopped any aspect of any game I've known. Like I've played sc, sc2, quake, css, tf2, dota, lol, hon, blazblue and even dabbled in some other fighters.

Some of these games have monstrous skill curves/walls that once passed provide immense advantages. If you can name any competitive game ever that has had anything banned purely due to a skill curve/wall, please enlighten me because not only do I think the idea of making the game more new player friendly is a joke but this game is currently so un-technical and easy to pick up in comparison to anything ever already.

If something being hard becomes an actual reason to influence a ban, then our rulesets are actually made for scrubs because that's almost the exact definition of scrub mentality.

 

[Jamwa]

@ Redact try dwarf fortress

 

[Redact]

@ Redact try dwarf fortress

Already did buddy, but this is not the topic for that talk.

 

[Rad]

you get more time to adapt to blind pick specials if it's three stocks. just a suggestion.

the idea of anything other than blind is hilarious to me though. It's not like there won't be a standard choice for every matchup. Just assume the worst and use your brain.

Possibly have counterpick rules for situations where there are two moves on each character that counter each other and the winner of that advantage is effectively random.

plus you learn the preferences of different players.

 

[dreadtech]

Ok so with netplay it's actually impossible to tell if people tack on equipment along with their customs because it's blind pick in CSS (does not show while in the match either) so netplay customs are banned regardless.

Can someone please check if it shows anywhere during local play? either in CSS or in match? because if not people might have to watch players choose their char so that they don't pick equipment filled chars.