Meta Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion

[Splice]

this new fact (to me anyway) that the WII U version will display custom moves only buries the issue, i think.

In this demonstration, Spongebob represents the Wii-U custom move display issue

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

"Shaya brought up a point on that last one with one of his posts. Do we ban individual custom moves or is that too messy? If a custom move is found to be overpowering, does that justify a ban on them all?"

Like you said.....innocent until proven guilty.
We should wait before we ban any custom moves. Also, if one custom move is OP, we shouldn't ban them altogether, just the one (or few, who knows) Custom Move that is OP.

 

[PK Gaming]

Believe it or not I'm aware of VGC, and their rules are often detrimental to healthy competition.

Look back at previous gen when they allowed swift swim/drizzle combo... and how many non rain teams did you see?

That's not really relevant. It was a top strategy that worked, hence it's dominance (though there were plenty of top players who ran sand to counterpick). It's no different than Melee's top 5 or MvC2's top 3. I think it would have been better if you brought up VGC 2010(?) where they allowed cover legendaries (but the TOs have since realized how dumb that was and have never made them legal again)

Sure pokemon is competitive, but when you have serious discussion about viability of competitive aspects of a game you end up with a body like Smogon, which for better or worse eventually eliminates option after option after option when the metagame calls for it. I retract my previous statement about being like Smogon as a bad thing, because they do what the believe is for the betterment of the community AND A HEALTHY METAGAME. They would have ousted Metaknight early on in Brawl's life, alls im sayin.

Heh. Having spent 4+ years on that site and being a part of the state of balance, it does make me happy to hear you say that. Indeed, Smogon would have strived to ban Metaknight immediately, though Smogon's a peculiar case. Singles was an unofficial ruleset, something we took into our hands after it was abandoned by Nintendo TOs. Smash's is handled by many, many different communities. Banning MK uniformly across those communities would be... difficult (he was banned and unbanned after all)

EDIT: probably the one parallel here is the custom move set option in smash is relevant to pokemon as you don;t know what set they're going to have. However, once you see their party it's not tough to work out their sets, or at least pretty close to it, as there are probably fewer than 12 viable options for each pokemon anyway.

I'd argue that it will eventually be the same case in Smash. There are many throwaway custom alternate moves, and characters such as Ganondorf or Marth who have move options that are clearly better than the others. Even if it isn't open and shut now, it will be in the future. Also, Pokemon is never 100% predictable. There was player who used Pachirisu in the Pokémon VGC 2014 Masters Division Final who ran wild. Really, the viable options extend well beyond 12 move variations, it's really crazy.

Top level Melee player adapt and deal with the "unknown"; mixups and options, what is the opponent gonna choose? You're making reads and calls already in a fighting game purely between player decisions, without the addition of this kind of 'hidden information' and undisclosed abilities.

Melee is already engaging and entertaining and competitive, and I think you'd find most of the people here playing it with a competitive interest would prefer it to Pokemon in these areas. Just because another highly competitive game thrives on these kinds of concepts doesn't create a strong supporting argument that Smash should also use more things like this.
By nature Smash is intensely deep without the inclusion of hidden information, that the gameplay is potentially diluted by adding more of this stuff in, because the core of the game is already strong and that's what a lot of people want to focus on.

Smash players already make the same 50/50 calls and stuff that Pokemon players do; we make reads and guesses.
DI traps are a good example.
We don't need to hide what the custom moves do to create this, I believe it will do nothing but inhibit the pace of the neutral game + a few gimmicky situations where you might setup a move and depending on which custom you have they have to do something else to dodge.

Point taken. To be honest, I only wanted custom moves to be legal; if they have to be announced before hand in order to be legal, then so be it.

 

[Dekar289]

rocking tomodachi life as the 2nd counterpick stage at this saturday's monthly
melbourne innovation

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

rocking tomodachi life as the 2nd counterpick stage at this saturday's monthly
melbourne innovation

Do you know what the full stage list is?

 

[Dekar289]

starter: fd, bf, yoshi's island
cp: prism tower, tomodachi life

 

[dean.]

rocking tomodachi life as the 2nd counterpick stage at this saturday's monthly
melbourne innovation

agree with this, think it's worth a try. better than ferox or gaur plains probably lol

 

[S.D]

That's not really relevant. It was a top strategy that worked, hence it's dominance (though there were plenty of top players who ran sand to counterpick). It's no different than Melee's top 5 or MvC2's top 3. I think it would have been better if you brought up VGC 2010(?) where they allowed cover legendaries (but the TOs have since realized how dumb that was and have never made them legal again)



Heh. Having spent 4+ years on that site and being a part of the state of balance, it does make me happy to hear you say that. Indeed, Smogon would have strived to ban Metaknight immediately, though Smogon's a peculiar case. Singles was an unofficial ruleset, something we took into our hands after it was abandoned by Nintendo TOs. Smash's is handled by many, many different communities. Banning MK uniformly across those communities would be... difficult (he was banned and unbanned after all)



I'd argue that it will eventually be the same case in Smash. There are many throwaway custom alternate moves, and characters such as Ganondorf or Marth who have move options that are clearly better than the others. Even if it isn't open and shut now, it will be in the future. Also, Pokemon is never 100% predictable. There was player who used Pachirisu in the Pokémon VGC 2014 Masters Division Final who ran wild. Really, the viable options extend well beyond 12 move variations, it's really crazy.



Point taken. To be honest, I only wanted custom moves to be legal; if they have to be announced before hand in order to be legal, then so be it.

The case of Se Jun's Pachirisu, though interesting, was still easy to unravel in terms of understanding its purpose and likely set. It was the only viable base stats legal choice to pull off the follow me/volt absorb combo etc.

Anyway not a discussion about pokemon - I was actually making the same point as you though, that sets will be more or less determinable simply by character choice, both in pokemon and smash.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

starter: fd, bf, yoshi's island
cp: prism tower, tomodachi life

Arena Ferox as a CP?

 

[Dekar289]

Arena Ferox as a CP?

neg

 

[Attila_]

Nice try, but no dice. Competitive Pokemon doesn't begin and end with Smogon.

Competitive Pokemon that's actually played at official tournaments (VGC Nationals/World Championships) barely ban anything. The only Pokemon that are routinely banned are cover legendaries (aka, Mewtwo and Kyogre Pokemon that aren't meant to be competitive) and event-only Pokemon.

But that's veering off point. My point was that competitive Pokemon players can adapt and deal with the unknown, and that Smash players should be able to do the same.

You only have to this video to get a sense of what I mean. Top level Pokemon players adapt and deal with the unknown constantly. It's not entirely a fair comparison, since that's fundamental to Pokemon, but even so... Even in spite of the fact that there's an element of randomness to it...

Pokemon is still engaging

Pokemon is still entertaining

Pokemon is still competitive

I genuinely think that Smash with custom moves would be the same.

At the same time, Smogon OU rules see waaaaaaaay more people play than the Nintendo rules. VGC is so broken that players are forced into a really small amount of viable options; so no one wants to play. Check online for yourself right now. VGC battle rooms are always dead.

 

[Lex__]

DK punch and Falcon punch are both default specials that can kill falcon at 87% from the same position, heck a charged little Mac's neutral B (not his KO punch) and mega mans fully charged forward smash can kill falcon at 87% from nearly the same range as in the video. (all tested with falcon at 87% just a little left of centre battlefield). there are probably others as well but dont have time to test everything.
if this arrow was his default arrow you wouldnt be showing it would you, you would accept it and find solutions to dealing with/avoiding/punishing it.

serious question: what character/s with what custom specials have you used for more than one session?
and what has been some of the ways tibs has adapted to this/these particular builds
Similarly, what has been some of Tibs' fav custom character builds, and how have you adapted to those?

All those moves are close range, and have long delay afterwards, if you get hit by links arrow (you will, specially after a bomb hits you) you will die. Specially in a game where its common to get higher then 100%, and you cant punish the move, it has like no end lag.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

neg

ah well

Also while your at it, you should add Magicant to your list.
I'm sure the flying man would appreciate it

 

[PK Gaming]

At the same time, Smogon OU rules see waaaaaaaay more people play than the Nintendo rules. VGC is so broken that players are forced into a really small amount of viable options; so no one wants to play. Check online for yourself right now. VGC battle rooms are always dead.

Haha, well I can't deny that. Singles just seems to be much more compelling as a ruleset (despite being unofficial). I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that it's infinitely more recognizable. Pokemon games and the anime use the singles format by default, and many people grew up with it. If you were to ask how Pokemon is played, you'd typically get an answer of "1 on 1, with a party of 6 Pokemon."

That said, i'm not sure I agree with VGC being way more broken, though this is probably not the thread to discuss that in.

 

[Splice]

ah well

Also while your at it, you should add Magicant to your list.
I'm sure the flying man would appreciate it

You don't want to get on the flying man's bad side.

I think Magicant should definitely be legal and made the mandatory starting stage of any set.
All hail the flying man

 

[dean.]

i will cry if i ever have to play another PvP game on magicant

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

You don't want to get on the flying man's bad side.

I think Magicant should definitely be legal and made the mandatory starting stage of any set.
All hail the flying man

Yes, I agree with this 100%

 

[Invisi]

I feel that blind vs disclosed custom moves has two core issues: competitiveness and logistics. There are strong arguments for both sides in both of these areas.

By competitiveness I mean what do we feel would be better for creating a healthy competitive metagame? This area is probably the more important of the two and is largely, if not entirely subjective. Personally, I would err on the side of blind picking, as I feel that the potential mindgames this could allow people to pull off would be exciting, and I feel that since most custom specials are only slight variations, the extra effort to account for them would be minimal. Of course, this thread has shown that everyone clearly has their own opinion on this issue, many of them quite strong ones, and that there is little point arguing on such a subjective issue.

By logistics, I am referring to what would help tournaments to run smoother. Blind picking clearly presents a better logistic situation, at least on the 3DS version, everyone simply picks their specials as characters are picked and the match starts, whereas if we force disclosure then we also have to decide how this is done (do we allow move counterpicking, etc). However, if it is indeed true that custom specials will be shown on the WiiU version, then blind picking becomes much more difficult from a logistics perspective. It is also worth trying to keep consistency between the two versions, and this should be taken into account.

Honestly, I think the only way to solve this is to try both blind and disclosed moves in tournaments and gauge a community opinion with some sort of vote. The subjective nature of the core issue here (competitiveness) means that it is going to be very unlikely for the community to come to a consensus, meaning the next best thing we can do is decide by majority. While I personally would prefer blind picking, I will gladly accept whichever decision is taken by the community at large. I would advise others to do so too, as divisiveness gets us nowhere.

 

[Attila_]

Banning individual custom moves represents a large problem in itself; it also specifically shallows the metagame of certain characters.

We can hand pick the tier list in this manner if we so desire.

 

[JKTS]

Has equipment already been shown to be game breaking? Don't really understand why it's auto-banned.

 

[Shaya]

I'd advise going to the competitive board and searching/reading that thread about equipment, you'll get the answer for that there.

 

[EverAlert]

I think showing moves is logistically "worse" but won't be as much of a problem as some people make it out to be. 3DS has the natural advantage of no-one needing to hunt for a setup to play their sets ever, not to mention they don't even need to be inside the venue to use them. Which is kind of enormous? An extra step or two in the counterpicking process isn't going to overturn that. I also feel that double-blind is kind of ideal on 3DS since you don't even need a 3rd party because the game hides your stuff anyway, and you can just flip your 3DS around to show once you both pick your stuff.

Not that any of that really matters in the long run. NSW is looking like it will only have one tournament before the WiiU version comes out (I guess a couple more if you count FERNs). I don't imagine this will be much different for the more active states.

WiiU is a little less ideal though. It does have the natural "advantage" that everyone can see the customisations anyway, so there's no inherent time penalty for simply knowing the moveset (though there is a basic time addition for using customs). A complicated double-blind procedure could add a non-trivial amount of time between games though, especially if customs are as hard to view from the CSS as on the 3DS version (keep in mind that you can access the editor from the CSS in solo play though, so if it's purely an issue with the wifi then it probably will be a lot simpler on the WiiU version). Let's say it takes about the same to view the customisations though (30 seconds), and add in the time it takes to turn around and ask the guy standing behind you to remember a couple of things. That comes to about a minute or so before each game? Not great, but you could for example make the time limit 7min instead of 8 accommodate.

This of course is assuming people actually do the double-blind procedure (or even follow the counterpicking procedure at all). Recently I've noticed that almost no-one in NSW seems to care about the procedure in any game. A lot of people just say "want to go random or whatever?" when presented with the stage select. Those who actually do counterpick rarely know what the stage list is (in PM anyway; it's pretty straightforward in Melee). Aside from the very rare "I know you play ICs so let's double-blind so I can go MK lolol," I can't say I've ever even done blind pick for characters over the entire time I've played smash competitively. A bit of a tangent, but the point being I don't see the time penalty for counterpicking moves coming into effect very often except against the more serious players. Even if we decide we absolutely must show the moveset in every case no matter what, I can see a situation happening where most players will be satisfied with you just saying what they are simply because they're not bothered to physically prove it in the game.

 

[Splice]

What's everyone think about Tomodachi Life?

 

[dean.]

i've played a grand total of one friendly on it. it seemed fine, nothing about it seemed too off.
one interesting thing is that although the walls of the apartments disappear when there's a fighter there, they don't for projectiles - can make some long-lasting projectiles (dedede's gordos, doge's can) 'stealthy'. but am happy to try out the stage.

 

[Shaya]

I enjoyed the gloriousness of Villager tree falling through platforms on that stage unexpectedly.

Maybe okay in doubles, but it's really disorientating 1v1.

 

[Gords]

@ Luco & @ Lex__ , let me repeat myself

heck a charged little Mac's neutral B (not his KO punch) and mega mans fully charged forward smash can kill falcon at 87% from nearly the same range as in the video

(note that the commitment from mega man would be about the same as links), you also seem to miss exactly what happened in the video. Its not like links can excessively spam this move to limit options or kill opponents easily (brawl MK tornado/shuttle loop). Its as @ S.D said it was a "Good setup into a great kill move".

Banning individual custom moves represents a large problem in itself; it also specifically shallows the metagame of certain characters.

We can hand pick the tier list in this manner if we so desire.

banning any number of moves, whether this be one or all of them, will shallow the metagame of certain characters. And the more moves get banned the more characters will see their metagame shallowed.
Also if no customs were allowed a tier list would develop within those bounds, so effectively you have hand picked that tier list by banning all custom moves.

Anyway the more this thread drags out the clearer it becomes that custom moves should be legal. That much we can establish no?

I agree,
Sydney Smash will see customs be allowed for at least 6 months then re-evaluated.
I will most likely have blind picking for game 1, which will lead into a counterpicking procedure that follows something allong the lines of:
winner bans stage
loser picks stage
winner picks character
loser picks character
winner selects customs
loser selects customs
I have yet to decide if on 3DS the custom moves will be announced or not, however on the WiiU I will be making it so that moves will be selected in front of your opponent (i.e. players will not be allowed to select a build that has already been set up on that console unless it was first seen being set up earlier within the set). I may trial blind picks on 3DS just to see how it goes but I am favouring announcement of customs for 3DS as well.

regarding stages, tourneys this year will have a very open stage list, likely 3 starters and maybe up to 10 total stages for 3DS. after collecting some data i will cut this back as issues become apparent. this goes for WiiU as well.

(keep in mind that you can access the editor from the CSS in solo play though, so if it's purely an issue with the wifi then it probably will be a lot simpler on the WiiU version).

you cant even access the editor from the CSS in local multiplayer on 3DS, and i have an ugly gut feeling the same will happen in the WiiU version. however making the character and move selections counterpicking happen on the character customization menu is almost analogous to people currently using the random stage select options in melee to strike from 5 stages (which in my mind is unnecessary for 5 stages and its quicker to go to the SSS) which i dont see as a very big inconvenience, I pretty much agree with everything you were saying in that tis will not cause to much delays, dont know about reducing the clock though

What's everyone think about Tomodachi Life?

hidden projectiles/objects, relatively low ceiling and possible circle camping are the problems I can see. probably need some proof regarding if camping and low ceiling cause issues, however hidden projectiles/objects i dont see as a major cause for concern seeing how you should see the opponent place them. probably trialing it is required.

 

[Metamorphic]

Put it this way. If all 12 moves were all on at the same time, would their be an issue? No, because you would accommodate for what a character is capable of. A number of other fighters have more possibilities, yet it would be an issue if only half could be switched on? That doesn't make any sense at all.

Hypothetically if all the characters wore pink dresses and the winning conditions involved sipping tea and brushing one another's hair in princess peach's garden... oh wait we're supposedly talking about the game in its current state and not hypothetical versions. Its not as though anybody is going to waste time accounting for what Captain falcon could be doing to them while they're fighting Yoshi, why would a competitive level player want to waste time accounting for the possibility of a moveset their opponent doesn't have? Would spectators find the cautious approach of probing/baiting of special moves in every match entertaining? Naturally the inclusion of custom moves is a boon to the depth and complexity of the game but keeping them hidden is just plain rude and obstructive to the flow of the game as a whole. I've been content in lurking in the forums (mostly melee) for many years now but the sheer irrelevance and pointlessness of this comment got me so worked up that I had to create an account just to call you out on it!

We also assume that anyone turning up has every stage and character unlocked. This is a standard for every version of Smash. Why are moves any different?

At least I was able to agree with you on one thing. Yes, people should unlock stuff or download a save file that has stuff unlocked.


My 2c on the discussion:
Only underhanded scrubs would want/need to hide their moveset from the opponent in order to garner some kind of minor advantage, is the smash community willing to accommodate such miscreants?

 

[Splice]

Its not as though anybody is going to waste time accounting for what Captain falcon could be doing to them while they're fighting Yoshi, why would a competitive level player want to waste time accounting for the possibility of a moveset their opponent doesn't have?

Although this kind of sounds stupid, there's surprisingly a lot of merit to putting it like this.
I'm surprised that "hiding custom move information or not?" is even a topic at all, I just didn't think anyone would believe it would be good for gameplay at all, regardless of the counterpicking logistics.

 

[EverAlert]

you cant even access the editor from the CSS in local multiplayer on 3DS, and i have an ugly gut feeling the same will happen in the WiiU version.

When I said wifi I meant local play too, in other words any kind of networking. Considering it's implemented in half the selection screens, it's pretty obvious they wanted very much to have the profiles editable from the character select; my guess is networking prevented it somehow (maybe writing to flash memory is disabled while the wireless module is in use?) or it was just way too complicated programatically.

The common denominator for character selects you can't edit profiles from is those during networking. WiiU will not have networking for local play.

 

[Attila_]

I know Japan use the FD/Omega only with 7 min timer and no customs.

I haven't seen any customs being used by Americans either. Is it just us?

 

[dean.]

really? i've seen customs at most american tournaments

 

[Shaya]

I actually haven't personally talked to a TO [State-side] who isn't running them except maybe Xyro, but he may have folded on that point; considering he banned G&W/Pika.

 

[Splice]

Xyro bans everything; it's good for players to see whether they prefer it that way though.
Anyway, we're all experimenting for now... bit early to play the "America does it so we do it" card

 

[Attila_]

Not really. If people want to go to apex, we need to get ready.

 

[Shaya]

Apex banning customs will be very disgusting, and I unfortunately see it happening.

 

[Splice]

Not really. If people want to go to apex, we need to get ready.

And the apex ruleset won't be identical to the one they're using right now.
Until the Apex ruleset is actually confirmed, there isn't a leg to stand on using this argument to dictate for what we should be doing right now.

 

[Luco]

Keitaro says he is ALL for custom moves. So that makes two TO's in NJ that support customs.

I remember this coming up in the 3DS competitive impressions thread. Thought it was relevant for your post @ Attila_

Oh lol, I misread Shaya's post back there and thought he said that he hadn't talked to anyone and didn't know what was going on except for xyro. Good lawd i'm great at this.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

So after all this discussion about Custom move sets, the final verdict seems to be...
Wait until after Apex.
Which really isn't a bad idea imo.

So what about stages?

I think that the stage list should be this.

3DS
Neutral: BF, FD, Yoshi's island, Arena Ferox*
Counter Pick: Prism tower, Tomodachi life, Boxing Ring* and lastly...... Magicant (I'm sorry, I know its old )

Wii U (From the ones confirmed so far)
Neutral: BF, FD, Pyrosphere, Town and City, Skyloft, Wily Castle*
Counter Pick: Halberd, Boxing Ring*, Pilot Wings, Windy Hill

Any stages with * next to it are the ones I'm unsure about
Note that this is just to get us started

 

[Lex__]

I think that the stage list should be this.

3DS
Neutral: BF, FD, Yoshi's island,
All these are fine, and established

Arena Ferox *
This has heavy cave of life problems, and doesnt bring anything to the table. Honestly should never be legal.

Counter Pick: Prism tower,

Prism tower is perfect counter pick IMO

Tomodachi life,

Has yet to be seen, im happy with the concept of that stage tho.

Boxing Ring*

Walk off, janky top thing that can be knocked off, walls of stage that can be jumped on to get height I think. Should not be legal

Edited my opinions in bold I dont think we should talk about wii u till it comes out TBH

 

[Star ☆]

My only issue with Tomodachi Life is the dangerously close bottom blast zone.