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Meta Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion

Splice

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Dairing to the ground is definitely worse, more endlag + no slowfall mixup glitch. Unless you know an autocancel timing; I couldn't find one on Dair when I was playing at the last meet.

But you are the 2nd person to start playing GnW just to counter Rosalina. Max got rekt as well and then picked up GnW and didn't have to care about Rosalina ever again.

"numbers drawn" x Hits is probably his best custom special, I agree. All the chef ones have things I want to try with them though.
 

Shaya

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I was already playing G-dubs a bit, when I discovered his neutral air and up air this game I was like OLEV. going off stage with him is like, rite of passage, smack them with your up-b. GODLIKE.
But it was a just a random throw out after roll away rosalina caused me frustration that was just way too easy. It truly was unexpected that stuff like forward tilt, fair and bair just... wall both Rosalina and Luma. Based mechanics right there.
 

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is it worth making a separate thread for this sort of general smash4 discussion? wouldn't want to clutter all the discussion about how good/bad tomodachi life is after all.
 

KuroganeHammer

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Lex__

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Bowser can bowsercide on tomodachi life and recover afterwards
Generally thats why bans exist, Did you also know marth can 0-death people on final destinations?

Edit: This came a bit more douchey then I meant it :o No insults intended.
 
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KuroganeHammer

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Generally thats why bans exist, Did you also know marth can 0-death people on final destinations?
well yeah

and realistically people don't just let you bowsercide them either, I was just pointing out that he can do it, lol
 

Shaya

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We get lag in local play with like 3 people, usually requires the "room" to get remade. Once it starts happening in a match it won't stop until restarted.
People throwing out speculah about how to not have it happen. No definitive anything about it though.
 
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KuroganeHammer

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... Really? I've played like, 12 hours of local play and have only experienced lag once in doubles (and I suspect it was because lolpowersavingmode (which btw GUTS your wireless signal))
 

Shaya

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power saving mode guts wifi signal? WHAT!?!

I wonder if it was already on this 3DS, I don't know how to work these things.
But we've probably had more than 12 hours of local play. It usually takes a while to happen.
Wouldn't be surprised if its because the streamer is holding the same wifi room all day and never restarting it :{
 
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KuroganeHammer

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power saving mode guts wifi signal? WHAT!?!

I wonder if it was already on this 3DS, I don't know how to work these things.
But we've probably had more than 12 hours of local play. It usually takes a while to happen.
Wouldn't be surprised if its because the streamer is holding the same wifi room all day and never restarting it :{
Yes, if someone has Power Saving Mode on, it WILL lag.

We had someone do the spectator thing with a third 3DS to record GFs with power saving mode on and it made the game lag periodically immensely

they turned it off and it was fine after that
 

Star ☆

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Yes, if someone has Power Saving Mode on, it WILL lag.

We had someone do the spectator thing with a third 3DS to record GFs with power saving mode on and it made the game lag periodically immensely

they turned it off and it was fine after that
I always thought Power Saving mode just reduced the intensity of the colours or something...

Good to know.
 

Dekar289

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yeah one of the first things i did when I got a 3dsXL was find that option and turn it offf
suddenly actual colours
 

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I played with a few friends, had a 3 - man game and moved about 5 meters away from them to talk to some friends (I had KOed myself early to let the other two fight) and it started lagging kinda badly.

That said, I don't think local wireless 1 v 1 will be an issue. Doubles may be something to consider though; and if it's really bad we might have to keep it at 1v1 matches until the wii U version comes out.
 

Attila_

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V isn't the reason for removing customs; this was proposed before the game was even released in Australia. Namely because a lot of the moves are janky or overcentralizing. I think the tree-sapling is a perfect example; it's a really silly OP move. But it's only one example: Rosalina's Luma warp, Link's power arrow and make the characters OP without any real effort.

The other thing that came out of yesterday, is the issues that arise with CPing custom moves. Ignoring logistics for a second (which are definitely an issue), after CPing a character, you can CP customs also, to further hard counter your opponent. This places a HUGE emphasis on the first game, as small mu advantages/disadvantages widen significantly.

And finally, it makes metagame development significantly more erratic; learning mus is harder than ever, and the development of consistent high level play will literally take forever.

That all being said, if Apex has them, I'm all for them. We can't fall behind here, no matter how silly the meta will become.
 

Venks

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V isn't the reason for removing customs; this was proposed before the game was even released in Australia. Namely because a lot of the moves are janky or overcentralizing. I think the tree-sapling is a perfect example; it's a really silly OP move. But it's only one example: Rosalina's Luma warp, Link's power arrow and make the characters OP without any real effort.

The other thing that came out of yesterday, is the issues that arise with CPing custom moves. Ignoring logistics for a second (which are definitely an issue), after CPing a character, you can CP customs also, to further hard counter your opponent. This places a HUGE emphasis on the first game, as small mu advantages/disadvantages widen significantly.

And finally, it makes metagame development significantly more erratic; learning mus is harder than ever, and the development of consistent high level play will literally take forever.

That all being said, if Apex has them, I'm all for them. We can't fall behind here, no matter how silly the meta will become.
I don't find Villager's Trip Sapling to be overpowered. Venus doesn't play Villager against my Little Mac because I know how to beat it out. My Sheik, which is really terrible as I've never played Sheik before a couple days ago, can also take down her Villager now and then.

Why do you think Rosalina's Luma Warp or Link's Power Arrow are OP?
Luma Warp goes a select range and is completely reliant on Luma being alive.
Power Arrow can't be used unless it's charged. Definitely a strong move, but this comes at the cost of Link's spacing tools. And of course without a set up the move can just be avoided by jumping. Because Link has to charge the move, it can't practically be used in the air.

I completely agree that it makes the metagame development more erratic and slower. There's a lot to learn with 50+ characters and each of them having 12 special moves.
I come from Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 though which also has 50 characters. The characters in this game have way more normals and specials. Not to mention hypers and unique-normals. Because you play with three characters at a time this allows for all sorts of bizarre strategies via assists, delayed hyper combos, and team hyper combos.
The possible combinations feel nearly infinite.

I find Ultimate Marvel to be amazing and personally do not think that a game with slower meta development is a bad thing.
The trade off is a lot more depth for match-ups.

I wouldn't be surprised if Apex has custom moves allowed. All of the Clash Tournaments... tournaments I've watched have had custom moves allowed. Nairo, the player who won the Brawl tournament at Apex 2014, is playing in these custom move allowed tournaments. Also seeing as Clash Tournaments is sponsored by Apex that might be something to expect.

Maybe I'm reading something out of nothing, but I think it makes more sense to be ready for custom moves and they turn out not to be legal than to have little to no experience with custom moves and they turn out to be legal.
 
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Splice

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Maybe I'm reading something out of nothing, but I think it makes more sense to be ready for custom moves and they turn out not to be legal than to have little to no experience with custom moves and they turn out to be legal.
I think you'll find Attila agrees with this; I mentioned it to him last night.
 

Attila_

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That all being said, if Apex has them, I'm all for them. We can't fall behind here, no matter how silly the meta will become.
Maybe I'm reading something out of nothing, but I think it makes more sense to be ready for custom moves and they turn out not to be legal than to have little to no experience with custom moves and they turn out to be legal.
I think we agreed on that part. I will support custom moves if the international community does, as stated previously.

Bringing up UMVC3 is a good point though, since it is very much a dying game in desperate need of a patch or change of ruleset.

UMVC3 is pretty balanced; there is a decent number of high/top tier characters that are viable. But that doesn't make certain options any less dumb. Sure, you can beat Phoenix, but sure as hell isn't easy or enjoyable. I'm just gonna stand over here and use MorriDoom and camp you to oblivion, because in theory, you should get in at least once. Maybe. Or hell, perhaps I'll use Zero, so don't make one mistake or youre dead, and the endless corner mix ups will kill your other characters.

All the strats are beatable, but they're all dumb, uncompetitive, and anti-fun.

In terms of smash, this was the reason for the ledge grab limit introduced for all characters (MK was the only character who had an 'unbeatable' ledge game). You could beat it, but it was unnecessarily hard to counter, and very easy to carry out, so we introduced the LGL to make the more competitive.

If custom moves are forcing a similar scenario in which a flowchart is OP, or where excessive skill is needed to beat something so easy to perform, then they need to be removed. Similarly, if they make the game 'unfun' for players and spectators a lot, we need to get rid of it, or else we lose our community. This was the bane of brawl; we took to long to make a ruleset for the people, as players were ruininh the game by trying to keep it organic. We need to form such a ruleset asap to minimize our losses. As someone who's relatively new to the scene, it might be harder to see the big picture here, but trust me, cause I've seen it all before.

And this is all outside my point of over centralizing game one, as CPing is so much more important now, since characters AND moves now counter. That's a really strong point.
 
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Shaya

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And this is all outside my point of over centralizing game one, as CPing is so much more important now, since characters AND moves now counter. That's a really strong point.
Pick customs at the same time for both players, after both players have picked characters. I don't believe custom moves should be apart of the counterpicking process. Otherwise I don't believe that the first match of the set is any more centralising in importance than any other smash game, unless you're letting players counterpick both character and specials to their fully known set, in which case then it's your ruleset that's hurting the players, not the custom moves themselves.

If you go Winner character -> Loser character -> Winner custom -> Loser customs, then I'm pretty adamant that there really isn't a way to screw someone over in such a way that means "autowin", in theory Palutena and Miis would, but I doubt it. If you have a strong point to make, I'm assuming you actually also have a solid thesis on why it's a strong point.
 
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Shaya

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I feel people should be picking customs for the opposing character, not the opposing custom specials they choose. Double blinding customs every game after character selection is currently my preference (applies to first match of the set too).

But Winner Char > Loser Char > Winner Custom > Loser Custom isn't bad either. Are you saying people are getting super-hard-countered in unwinnable ways using that procedure?

Maybe my interpretations of why we have customs in the first place is different. I think of them as ways to make characters the best they can be in any given match up. I don't think of them as something that should be counterpicked.
 
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Attila_

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I'm saying not knowing which customs are being used is silly. And I'm saying countering customs is OP.

To be fair though, using customs to specifically counter a character is still pretty OP; definitely alters mus further than they would otherwise change.
 

Shaya

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Oh, of course the opponent should know what custom specials you're using. I'm purely talking about the procedure in which they're picked.

One player tells neutral party what number (there's 1-10 right?) they're going to use after character choices are known. Other player picks their custom set. Reveal to each other what they are. Start match.
 
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Splice

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Shaya is suggesting both players pick the customs blindly at the same time, but then reveal them after the picking is done.
"Winner Char > Loser Char > Winner Custom > Loser Custom " looks fine to me but I'm not sold on how OP they are for counterpicking so idk
 

Gords

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The other thing that came out of yesterday, is the issues that arise with CPing custom moves. Ignoring logistics for a second (which are definitely an issue), after CPing a character, you can CP customs also, to further hard counter your opponent. This places a HUGE emphasis on the first game, as small mu advantages/disadvantages widen significantly.
so how did you guys deal with counterpicking moves, like what was your procedure?

If custom moves are forcing a similar scenario in which a flowchart is OP, or where excessive skill is needed to beat something so easy to perform, then they need to be removed. Similarly, if they make the game 'unfun' for players and spectators a lot, we need to get rid of it, or else we lose our community.
how do you intend to fix the problem if a characters normals, aerials or default specials create an OP flowchart, requires excessive skill to beat and/or make the game 'unfun' for players/spectators?

If you go Winner character -> Loser character -> Winner custom -> Loser customs, then I'm pretty adamant that there really isn't a way to screw someone over in such a way that means "autowin", in theory Palutena and Miis would, but I doubt it.
I agree that moves should be selected for the opposing character and therefore made after character selection.
I dont agree that they should be made blind though hence why I actually suggested this procedure a while ago. I have two reasons for this.
1. Picking blind introduces randomness and chance, which actually leads to more emphasis on the outcome of game 1
lets say P1 selects a character and P2 then selects a character that generally does well against P1's character. However P1's character likes a certain side special (S2) against P2's character. P2's character though has a down special (D2) that can deal with P1's S2 but without it the matchup for P2 is significantly harder. If P1 doesnt use S2 though then P2's D2 becomes effectively useless and the matchup again becomes significantly harder. For this situation P2 would prefer to use another down special which will be more generally effective in the matchup.
here is a terribly crafted table of what I am trying to talk about
matchup from P2 point of view
___________P1
_______| S2 _ | no S2|
____D2 | good | hard |
P2 -------|--------|--------|
__no D2| hard | good |
if move selection is in the counterpicking procedure mentioned above then P2 effectively gets a good match up (as he should losing the first game). However if move selection is blind then P2 effectively gets a 50/50 shot in getting a good match up, with the down side being a hard match up. Not something that should happen in game 2 for P2. If this is the case the set could practically be decided by a coin flip after game 1. This places a large emphasis on Game 1 since P1 still has game 3 to come back if the coin flip doesnt go his way.
If picking blind in this kind of scenario becomes a thing I can just see it being Armarda VS HungryBox Apex 2013 all over again, except where it is every game, not just Game 1
2. WiiU logistics
The 3DS has no problem with dealing with blind picks due to the nature of the 3DS. However, on the WiiU you will be able to see what moves your opponent selects which a can see it turning out that the player select last will naturally consider the moves selected by the previous player. For the reasons mentioned in the above spoiler I can see then that more people are going to be calling for blind selections more often which requires a ref to get involved and stay involved for the whole set. If there is no blind picks after Game 1 then they are not required for the set and less interruptions take place. I feel it will also make things run slower since instead of pondering what the other may choose in their blind choice there is a definite selection you make depending on the choice you know they made.
For game 1 everything should be blind from the get go imo, as in you select your character and moves without knowing the selections your opponent has made. Again I can see there being the logistics problem here but at least its only for game 1 and avoids the problem of my first reason for Game 1.

regarding the way we should announce selections (for both Blinds to refs and specials chosen to opponents) I think we should use the following system
Character NSUD
where N, S, U, D are digits 1, 2 or 3 and refer to the number of the special used for the Neutral, Side, Up and Down special respectively. This is how the game lists specials on the specials customization screen.
so for example
default Palutena would be
Palutena 1111 or default Palutena
but a Palutena that uses Autoreticle, Super Speed, Rocket Jump, Lightweight would be
Palutena 1332

Regarding Stock Count
Last weekend Tom had a meet where we had a Smash 4 trial tourney. We went with 3 Stock 8 min. Even with our small pool of players several matches went to time. For this reason I will likely be making Smash City be 2 Stock 6 min Bo3 (Bo5 finals)
Basically I want the games to finish but not have the sets go half hour.
 
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Attila_

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Seriously, WHY IS ONE STOCK NOT BEING DISCUSSED.

Otherwise:

1. Complete blind picking of moves is dumb. Losing or missing a game winning edge guard because you can't have known your opponent's options is dumb. That can result in scenarios where the better player may lose because of things outside their control.

2. If a character creates an OP flow chart without custom moves we ban that character. Like we Shouldve done with MK. I have no issues doing that, but no character is looking 'too good' at this point.

3. We didn't have a procedure for CPing customs, so it wasn't regulated at the lat tourney.

4. I recommend running both customs allowed and customs banned events, at least until the apex ruleset is announced.

5. Do we agree that tomodachi life is worse than ferox?

6. Modified DSR (can always CP the stage played on game 1) seems like a winner, probably no bans in bo5 too.

7. Seriously recommend trialing one stock. At the very least, it makes you value every stock of every game; it can't degrade our meta.

8. At this point at least, I think players should have to demo customs to opponents. Most players won't unlock everything for a while, and it only seems fair to show them what they'll be playing against.

9. WiiU blind customs sounds like a nightmare to regulate. And unlock, unless there is a data transfer mechanic.

I think that is all.
 
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Redact

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I think a combination of modified DSR (can't pick the last stage won on) and no bans in b05 is the best in terms of stage selection.

As for actual tomadachi life vs ferox, the ferox elements feel much more intrusive than the issues with tomadachi. The characters that gain advantages from tomadachi aren't exactly the best characters either. Id love to have a good 5th stage instead of either of these though :/
 

Shaya

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Reset Bomb Forest seems less of an issue than Ferox (in my opinion).
Second transformation does have a lot of edges, and a mini cave of immortality. I unfortunately do see it being abused to some extent to run away but none of the other elements are problematic (spike thing at the bottom does not kill you, the cave can be destroyed I think with 20-30 damage; 40s trans one/1m:20s trans two)

At the very least in doubles that stage shouldn't pose an issue as it removes all obstacles (cave/spike thing). Tomodachi being the 5th stage replacement in singles could work (if RBF seems that out of place for it).
 
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Attila_

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RBF forces aerial approaches on both transformations though, which doesn't really work. Need to spam them projectiles if you have any. Gg.

Tomodachi Life is just about camping the bottom platform; I barely dropped a stock here at the tournament; you just can't approach from above. Against a patient player, you're just stuck above for the whole stock.

Ferox's transformations limit approaches, but they also decrease the effectiveness for projectiles, so 'stand and spam' doesn't work. The only issue is the ceilings really, which you can tech off to survive and use your invincibility to counter. But this really isn't too dissimilar to the ps1 windmill. I don't think it's a great stage, but I think promotes competitive play more than the other two.

Edit: given that there really aren't many neutral stages in this game, I think being able to play on the stage played on the first game needs strong consideration.
 
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Shaya

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RBF forces aerial approaches on both transformations though, which doesn't really work. Need to spam them projectiles if you have any. Gg.
First transformation doesn't seem any less forcing aerial approaches than battlefield. Second transformation; well it's basically a significantly less lame version of Japes. If Japes water wasn't insta-death, I'd be pretty fine with it legal.


If this is about having 5 stages for the "starter", then perhaps the conceptual idea of having a starter stage is flawed?
 

Attila_

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It depends on the kind of meta you're trying to promote.

I think the notion of ground crossing the length of the stage is great, and I think allowing grounded approaches is healthy for the metagame. Limiting characters to approach from the air significantly reduced character viability on such stages, which I do not think would contribute to a healthy meta.

But even then, its a decision based on personal experience and perception. You're free to disagree.

If you want to open up your meta to include walk offs, thats also fine. It adds something to the game. But it probably wouldn't be a popular decision and people would not want to play.

At some point you draw the line. Where exactly that line is can be hard to identify. But I definitely feel that forcing aerial approaches is a universally bad idea for this game.
 
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Shaya

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Those platforms aren't Japes sized either, there is no king of the hill position on RBF that I can see true issues with (like it's not the "oh there is no way I can hit your shield or you without being easy mode shield grab"). All "off" areas of the stage match vertically mostly.
I do agree with you on the "is it competitive (usually always yes) vs is it skills we wish to promote competitively". I think the stage would polarize a little, if you're striking down 5 stages, then likelihood is that someone will want to get rid of it. But unless you're Mac (who just doesn't have anything he can do on the second transformation but stand there) I don't think you're completely option-removed.

I have played on it a lot, and I do tend to play more potent aerial characters, so bias/bias. My only real qualm with the stage is during the transformation between 1->2, the roof is so so so so so sooooooooo low and both players start at the top of the blast zone basically.


First transformation is not an issue whatsoever, even for Mac. It's a shame its 40/80 rather than the other way around, we would probably all have a vastly different opinion on it if the more appetizing/neutral part was more pronounced.
 
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Shaya

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"Try" sure. We should be willing to try anything basically.
But I don't like the implications of it? I'm still a little peeved at 3->2 stock, although all emotion based signs point towards 2 being better, I just can't logic it otherwise.
 

Jamwa

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They also probably play PM.

Are there any real reasons why we shouldn't try one stock?
It doesn't encourage conditioning yada yada
There's no flow in each match yada yada
It doesn't feel fun for some yada yada
It's less consistent yada yada

personally didn't enjoy one stock because I felt adapting/conditioning were no longer an emphasised part of each match, and yeah it could be argued otherwise but i feel like the case for this is the same

I should also say newcomers would probably prefer playing with 2/3 stocks as its been the norm. its not always about the metagame
 
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