Meta Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion

Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
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#1
Hi all,

Just wanted to generate some healthy conversation, but I form an official ruleset committee.

The biggest down fall of the Brawl era was the inability of the community to form a proper ruleset for a number of years; I'd like this done asap.

So then, opinions please. Number of stocks? Timer? Which stages? Omega only? Others too?

Express it here or forever hold your peace.
 

ViVa

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#2
Played a bunch of smash 3ds with jei and dean and we used two stock with a 5 minute timer which seemed good. We talked about a stagelist too. We liked BF FD and Yoshis for neutrals. Prism Tower for counterpick. All other stages without Omega mode were deemed not suitable for tournament play. Ferox and Tomodachi Life came close though.
 

dreadtech

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#3
PCG's place had a pseudo for lols smash 4 tourney we used 2 stock bo3 and didn't use a timer, so I'm not sure on the time but 5 seems pretty acceptable, 3 wasn't too bad either in friendlies so it's not out of the question
 
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#4
2 Stock, 5 mins seems like the way to go, same as for-glory online, so should make it easier for people transitioning into tourneys for the first time too.
BF, FD and Yoshi's seem like the only real viable non-omega levels. There are still some notable differences with the Omega FD's - Blastzones aren't all identical, and some characters can really utilize walljump/B-reverse for extra recovery options, making levels like Warioware Omega better than say Battlefield Omega for those characters. So maybe Omegamode levels should be CP options.

Also, what are people's views on custom moves being allowed?
 
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I LAG

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#5
Imo 2 stock 5min and 3stock 8min should both be used. 2 stock 5min would be a good way to make pools go a lot faster in tournaments. Then just use the old 3 stock 8min for brackets.

As for stages, anything with walls, hazards, stage leading to blast zones, stage transformations should only be allowed the omega version. While the rest should be allowed both. If you want me to make a list I can.

For neutrals I believe that only the stages with roughly average sized blast zones when compared with the rest of the stages should be allowed. Final destination is huge, long and flat. That doesn't seem very neutral to me, wbu? Also battlefield I'm undecided on, it has a lot of platforms maybe it should be a counter pick?
 

I LAG

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#7
does anyone have any information on omega stages? like which ones are identical to each other and which are the larger and smaller ones in terms of stage size and blast zone?

Edit: I uploaded a file with very rough opinions on what the stages should be categorised as. The blank omega ones i'm not sure if they should be neutral or cp.
I also believe that for the starter stages there should be a mix in an even ratio of stage types. I believe that some stages are just different skins of each other and if they were put into the starters then it would just increase the odds of that type of stage being played.

Questionable CPs that some people might like to discuss are:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Jungle Japes
Brinstar
Yoshi's Island
Mute City
Pictochat 2
Pac-maze

I believe that allowing some of these which are borderline banned would definitely add more strategic play and change some match ups favours. If most of these borderline banned aren't allowed then should stage bans even exist? if they are all allowed with possibly even more enough stage bans should be given so certain characters can't exploit to the extremes. eg number of bans should be the same as the amount of stages allowed with walls.
 

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Splice

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#8
I like 2 stock, but why do we only have 5 minutes?

Brawl has 3 stock 8 minute timer and it can still timeout.
Melee has 4 stock 8 minute timer and it can still timeout.
Why are we making the game 2 stock, if we're making it take less "assumed" time than the other games (8 minutes)

8 minutes will dissuade timeout attempts, will allow naturally slow games to play out properly, and will have the same standard maximum time limit as other smash events.
 

Redact

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#9
I like 2 stock, but why do we only have 5 minutes?

Brawl has 3 stock 8 minute timer and it can still timeout.
Melee has 4 stock 8 minute timer and it can still timeout.
Why are we making the game 2 stock, if we're making it take less "assumed" time than the other games (8 minutes)

8 minutes will dissuade timeout attempts, will allow naturally slow games to play out properly, and will have the same standard maximum time limit as other smash events.
The game times out at about the same rate as brawl, and sticking to the format of online for glory will make it easier for newcomers apart from stages.

If timeouts prove to be an issue then we should look at increasing it, but 5 minutes for 2 stocks currently seems comfortable as well as I don't believe time outs will be an issue.
 

dean.

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#10
from what i can tell all of the Ω stages are identical to final destination in terms of stage length and blastzone size (sides and top at least, didn't check bottom). only difference is whether the sides of the stage extend all the way to the bottom blastzone or not.
only checked about half of them though
 

Splice

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#11
The game times out at about the same rate as brawl, and sticking to the format of online for glory will make it easier for newcomers apart from stages.

If timeouts prove to be an issue then we should look at increasing it, but 5 minutes for 2 stocks currently seems comfortable as well as I don't believe time outs will be an issue.
I can get behind this. I do feel like characters like DHD and Villager and characters like Little Mac that might make the other player want to camp harder will have some pretty long 2 stock games that may encourage a time out situation from one player with only 5 minutes, but I guess this can work for now. As long as the change is made swiftly when/if people start realising that if the game is still going at 4 minutes the safest way to win is to maintain the lead for another one.
__________________________________________

For stages I think we could/should probably ignore Omega stages?
Wii-U stages won't be the same as 3DS, but to me it looks like
Starters:
Battlefield
FD
Yoshi's Island
(Brawl) - Only reason you wouldn't have this neutral is if you're afraid of ghosts.
*there's a new smashville right? is that in the 3DS version? this will likely be starter worthy*

Counterpicks:
Pokemon Prism Tower
Reset Bomb Stage
(i definitely dont think this should be banned, afaik nothing weird happens on it it's just a strange platform set up)
Arena Ferox
Brinstar
Japes


Brinstar and Japes have the problems they've always had. If we want to start out with a safe ruleset than these could be banned from Day 1.

Prism Tower looks fine, it's just an array of different platform setups. I think it will benefit characters who like a bit more aerial mobility. Sharking is mad nerfed due to the edge mechanics so that *shouldn't* be a problem.

I haven't played on Arena Ferox or Reset Bomb Stage for long but they both look like just some weird platform setups. I don't know if **** starts blowing up after 2 minutes but I'm gonna assume it doesn't.

Reset Bomb Stage is cool. Having a hole in the middle of the stage is not ban worthy when there are platforms over it imo, just makes for some interesting use of environment without getting screwed over by it, because it's static.

Haven't actually touched Arena Ferox but it looks like one of the transformations on Castle Siege but without the walkoffs and other transformations, therefore = better than Castle Siege???
 
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I LAG

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#12
Prism Tower looks fine, it's just an array of different platform setups. I think it will benefit characters who like a bit more aerial mobility. Sharking is mad nerfed due to the edge mechanics so that *shouldn't* be a problem.

I haven't played on Arena Ferox or Reset Bomb Stage for long but they both look like just some weird platform setups. I don't know if **** starts blowing up after 2 minutes but I'm gonna assume it doesn't.

Reset Bomb Stage is cool. Having a hole in the middle of the stage is not ban worthy when there are platforms over it imo, just makes for some interesting use of environment without getting screwed over by it, because it's static.

Haven't actually touched Arena Ferox but it looks like one of the transformations on Castle Siege but without the walkoffs and other transformations, therefore = better than Castle Siege???
Prism Tower - I really don't think walk offs are healthy. The stage is only a walkoff on one section for a short period of time every full rotation which isn't bad.

Arena Ferox and Reset Bomb Forest - these imo are toxic stages. In 2 stock 5min games it's pretty easy to time out because some of the transitions promote camping. I will say Arena Ferox isn't as bad, it's comparable to pokemon stadium but remember how much of a camp fest pokemon stadium would be on certain sections.

Bottom line is I don't think we want to play on stages where for any period approaching is awkward and challenging to the point we're playing against the stage more than the opponent.

"Brinstar and Japes have the problems they've always had. If we want to start out with a safe ruleset than these could be banned from Day 1."

I think the stage list should always be more open and larger in the beginning before it is refined to a smaller list. These two stages aren't that bad compared to the 3 you listed as possible counter pick stages. I would be happy to see all 5 of them played on in tournaments to truly see if timing out on the stages is a problem.

edit: I'd really like to know peoples opinions on
Mute city
Pictochat 2
Pac-maze

as possible counter picks
 
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Splice

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#13
I think that because Prism Tower's walkoff is for such a short duration, and it's other stages are fine, that we should have it legal. It's infinitely better than Delfino in Brawl (which we had for ages) because as far as I can see sharking is not going to be gamebreaking in Smash 4 and it's transformations are all battlefield-esque platform arrangements instead of bull**** terrain with heaps of walls, walk-offs, water and that one transformation with a million ledges

I didn't realise there are transitions on Reset Bomb Forest; I'd really have to see more.
If you want the stage list to be more open though, stages where approaching becomes awkward briefly might as well be allowed. If this conflicts with the 5 minute timer, the solution is to increase the timer to 8, not ban the stage.

IF, however, you wanted a very restricted and disciplined stagelist, you probably would get rid of them, but you'd get rid of all but 4 stages that I've seen so far. +Smashville which will be in the Wii-U version.

I think the biggest enemy is randomness that interferes with neutral game. The ghosts on Yoshi's are random but aren't an issue for 90% of gameplay. Pictochat 2 random transformations aren't controllable and instead of both players using the environment against the opponent, they both fight against it instead. I'm actually fine with Mute-City/Rainbow Road because I don't think the car obstacles are the worst thing ever and afaik they aren't totally random, this probably isn't a popular opinion though. I haven't played on Pac-maze but I'll comment anyway that it looks ****ed
 
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Jei Jei

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#14
How many people would be on this committee roughly? I know a few people who would be ideal candidates but I would like to be part of it myself.
 

Luco

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#15
I'd be happy to serve on this committee if you need extra hands. :D

Uhhh, has anyone considered Tortimer Island as a viable counterpick? It randomises its terrain slightly afaik and it has the fruit but for the most part it's actually very very stable.

Though, the more I think about the fruit the more I refrain from pressing it as a full on allowed stage. It's still something to consider though, I suppose. :-)

Look, I feel like if you wanted to be really strict about this you'd make only the omega versions playable; but I feel like something such as Final Destination biases itself towards certain characters in a different way, a way that you can't really avoid. Having a few different counterpicks keeps that sense of strategy alive and it's an element of Brawl I really really liked.

By the by, just off the top of my head, the thing to keep in mind with reset bomb forest is the creature in the second transformation that lurks at the bottom of the stage. If you fall into it I assume it just damages you with one of its back spikes. I dunno, haven't tested it; it's just something to keep in mind. :)
 
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Redact

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#16
Another thing is to definitely include shaya/aerodrome in this committee, possibly someone from perth as well (are they jumping on this game?)

Id say to include myself to have a melee sided opinion if valued.

A line up of atilla, shaya, aero, perth player, myself/dekar/S.D (if they volunteer) is balanced experience and opinion wise.

More than about 10 players would be too many imo.

Your idea and initiative, just offering my opinions here
 
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Splice

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#17
I volunteer to be on the committee, would love to see things done sensibly and swiftly this time around.

@ Luco Luco : Pretty much the point is you wanna have a few stages to benefit a few different characters (FD benefits characters who benefit less from platforms, BF is on the other hand and can be good for characters who juggle well and cover aerial space, Pokemon Prism Tower can benefit characters who cover aerial distance more or want to spam **** from the air, etc.) while keeping the core elements we as a community have to come to utilise (edge game in particular, and we also like flat terrain and an absence of random objects like fruit). Tortimer Island already skips edgegame and has random objects, so it's not giving a similar gameplay experience at all to other competitive maps.

Maybe we have to have a discussion at some point about whether we're ok with some maps not having an edge-game; This definitely benefits a different set of characters and might work for Smash 4, whereas in Melee we simply love our edge-game and the majority would not like to see it go. At this point thought, the features of Tortimer Island don't adhere to how we usually like our competitive stages to play.
 

Luco

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#18
Yeah, that's definitely a fair point to make, though I would say our edge-game will be wildly different this time around anyway. I feel the beach side reminds me somewhat of the right side of Frigate from Brawl and in fact it's very similar in that respect due to how the opposite side does have a ledge, like in frigate. I feel our biggest issue here would be the fruit, though whether that's a big enough issue to warrant a ban based on the omega stages is something i'm honestly sure about.

Unless there's something i'm missing or forgetting, which is also totally possible. :)

EDIT: Then again, Frigate was banned in the end so there you go. :p
 

S.D

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#19
At this point I have not got enough interest/knowledge with regard to this game to be of much use in crafting a ruleset.
I'd advocate 2 stock 5 min, BF, FD and YI starters.
Other than that I haven't been able to stay awake long enough to play a full match so who knows.
 

KuroganeHammer

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#20
I've had the game since JP release so after a whole bunch of game time I have a fairly good grasp of what a ruleset should look like.

I'm happy to help if you need it.

I got gimped by rulesets at two tournaments already, but w/e, this is release weekend, the weekend of **** rulesets lol
 

Star ☆

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#21
I think...

Battlefield, Yoshi's Island - Starters
Final Destination, Prism Tower - Counterpicks


I think it's important to have Final Destination as a Counterpick as there seems to be an abundance of characters in this game that perform very well on flat stages. :4littlemac:
 
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#22
I think...

Battlefield, Yoshi's Island - Starters
Final Destination, Prism Tower - Counterpicks


I think it's important to have Final Destination as a Counterpick as there seems to be an abundance of characters in this game that perform very well on flat stages. :4littlemac:
That's why bans exist, we need at LEAST 3 neutral starters.
And all these players not knowing the pain of walk-off stages yet... just you wait.
 
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ViVa

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#24
I think it would be worthwile to look through the omega stages and look at which stage has walls or just ledges or which ones are more/less spacious. This way we can further flesh out the starters
I have all the 3ds stages so I figured I'd have a quick look at all the Omega stages. We have 3 kinds of FD:

Normal FD (Walls don't go straight down from edge to bottom blast zone). Includes: Battlefield O, FD, 3D Land O, Rainbow Road O, Jungle Japes O, Spirit Train O, Brinstar O, Corneria O, Prism Tower O, Mute City O, Magicant O, Flat Zone 2 O, Gaur Plain O.

Walls FD (Walls go straight down from edge to bottom blast zone). Includes: Golden Plains O, Paper Mario O, Mushroomy Kingdom O, Gerudo Valley O, Yoshi's Island O, Dream Land O, Unova Pokemon League O, Reset Bomb Forest O, WarioWare O, Distant Planet O, Tortimer Island O, Boxing Ring O, Balloon Fight O, Living Room O, StreetPass Quest O, Tomodachi Life O, PictoChat 2 O, Green Hill Zone O, Wily Castle O, PAC-MAZE O.

Arena Ferox FD (Has wall under centre stage. Like Pokemon Stadium 1)

All lengths and blast zones seem the same. Some of the Normal FDs have a wider stage underneath.
 
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Splice

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#26
People shouldn't have to ban different variations of FD, a stage that actually creates polarising MU ratios on it.
Omega stages should be completely disregarded in the effort of having an unbias stagelist.

Battlefield, FD, Smashville can function for starter/firstpick stages. Ideally I've always thought FD isn't really the most neutral stage because of how huge some MU's are on it; you don't want forced bans in the starters if you can avoid it. Melee doesn't have a choice but Brawl/PM and hopefully Smash 4 with a few more "acceptable" stages can make an effort to move away from it for more neutral starters. The problem is I think randomness (ghosts on Yoshi's Island) is worse on a starter stage than polarizing MU ratio's. If we can get 5 other fair stages though, FD should seriously be considered for not being used as a starter.

Walk-offs are aids, only stage with a walkoff I favour is Prism Tower because it's not hard to space for 10 seconds in this game and not approach the dude standing at the edge of the walk off. It should take about 3 brain cells maximum to execute this strategy. Having a static walkoff though creates a legitimate strategy that a campy character can crutch on for the whole game
 

Luco

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#30
I feel like a ban on FD is a ban on all omega stages. As Aero said, if FD is decided then it's up to the players to decide which one they want to go to (obviously we'll always be going to Magicant, I mean duhhh :p ). :)
 

dreadtech

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#31
how about we just add one version of omega (with walls going down) as a starter for reference, if players know which omega versions have walls then they are free to pick. The walls help chars with wall jumps and strong off stage bair game.


I think that it will be
Starters Battlefield, FD (all versions), Yoshi's
Counterpicks Prism Tower, Arena Ferox
Arena Forex is the only thing you have added and is pretty bad
The last two transformations in particular are terrible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41bCiRWB1z4#t=83 second last transformation, the square rotating platforms and a centre platform that cannot be jumped/dropped through
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41bCiRWB1z4#t=111 last transformation, this is the really bad one, we have two mismatched platforms on either side that cannot be jumped/dropped through

I'm not too knowledgeable so pls refute my points if I'm wrong but as it looks the stage transformations are bad
 
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Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
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#32
I think FD, YI and BF are a good choice for starters. I doubt this generates any controversy.

Counters are hard though. I don't mind prism tower at this point, ferox is borderline, and reset bomb is a no, I think. It forces an approach from above, which seems like gg on this game.

Not sure where we stand on omega forms yet.

Also, what about 1 stock?

In regards to Tortimer Island, my boat issue with the stage is actually the zoom out when the boat is coming. The DS screen is too small for that. Items and no ledge on the left only add to the ban-ability of the stage.
 
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ViVa

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#33
I don't think we need to but if you want to use 1 stock go ahead. Just don't complain when people pick Bowser and fish for Bowsercides in which the victim always dies first. Buffed Bowser also shouldn't have too much trouble getting % lead to ensure he controls side-b.
 

dean.

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#34
the more i think about arena ferox the more i agree with dreadtech. it has four transformations that last 35-40 seconds and two of them essentially have a roof for part of the stage. the one with the wall in the middle isn't too bad, the wall is pretty short and even with half the stage cut off the stage is still large enough to not feel cramped. the one with the statues is fine. the statues crumble after about 50% anyway.

am pretty borderline on reset bomb forest. the first transition is fine really. the second is a bit more awkward, but it's not so bad if you destroy the three platforms on the left (each takes about 20% to break). skeleton dragon/fish thing going across the bottom only does 12%, moves slowly, has fixed patterns and hits upwards with moderate knockback (killed my dedede off the top only at 170%ish), it might be too heavily towards close-quarters fighters more (the platforms are fairly small and there are no ledges on the right platforms) and long-range campers though, since approaching opponents on platforms different from yours is a pain.
 

Luco

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#35
I think 2 or even 3 stock is fine with this iteration, but i'm not averse to us trying different things.

As for Tortimer and the DS screen, that's something I didn't consider and it's reasonably fair. I would however argue that if tortimer is banned then Reset should also be banned. I dunno, the dragon at the bottom of the second transformation reminds me somewhat of the spikes and flames in Brawl's Pictochat. Those transformations were all about throwing the other person into the flames/blades. With Reset bomb forest I get the feeling that characters with spikes will try to get characters meteored into the dragon for the extra 12%. If he wasn't there I would actually have no problems with the otherwise stable/fair - if a bit awkward and clunky - stage. :)

As for clarifying our thoughts on Omega stages, I think it's fair to say we think that Omega stages should basically be clumped with FD. If you ban or strike FD then you ban/strike all omega stages - and if FD is picked, then any Omega stage can be chosen dependent on who's actually meant to choose that time and/or what the players casually agree on. As for the actual variants of omega stages and their relative benefits and downfalls, I think that will all come down to who's meant to be picking that time anyway (basically the person who ends up choosing the stage via their 'ban' may also choose which omega stage they want).

Unless peeps have any objections, that appears to be the way we're going?
 

Gords

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#38
ok so the way I am thinking about rulesets for smash 3ds for Smash City is to be a bit more open about stages and rules at first to gather data and see what works within this games engine. Then cut things down when we find things that dont work or are unbalanced.
I have had about a week with the the game and have discussed it a bit with EA, shaya and ted
so far I have the following ideas

General rules
format to be swiss into top 8 or 16 DEbracket
2 stock 5 min Bo5 / 3 stock 8 min Bo3 (havent decided yet)
custom moves allowed,
equipment banned.

Stages
I am pretty sure that Omega stages are all the same length and have the same blast zones, although i am unsure if this matches the real FD. Omega stages are split into 3 categories.
Omega Pillar, Omega floating and Omega Ferox (lipped pillar)
EA and I went through the stages the other day and have a rough plan for the stages that is quite open. the intention is to start with an open stage list including borderlines and cut stages later after they are proven to be inadequate for tournament play.
here is our first draft (2 stage bans, where each omega type is considered one stage. ie. banning omega pillar bans all stages of that type, although omega ferox may belong to both groups)
3ds stage list.png
 
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Jamwa

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#39
Ban metaknight before it happens again

if this game becomes one stock im ever never playing nevever
i still think two stocks limits the amount of flow in a game but it seems the norm so w/e
 

Splice

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#40
Thanks smashboards for going under maintenance and deleting my post.

More stocks is always better because it gives you a bigger sample size of gameplay.
This is limited by the fact that we don't have infinite time to run tournaments and as a community we don't like really long sets and 8 minute games.

In Brawl it was super hard to make anything happen when you had a stock deficit, with any luck Smash 4 will not be at that level.
The argument for 1 stock is super weak, the debate is more between 2 or 3 stock but the scene is content with 2 stock and this also adheres to the standards of Nintendos online and makes games quicker which is also cool.

I don't quite understand the haste for the ban on Arena Ferox and Reset Bomb Stage. If we want to have a kind of open stage list than these are kind of your choices and as far as I can tell they are not random, instead they provide an abusable environment for player. This is a good thing!

The walls and roofs on Arena Ferox could lead to hype combos and interesting play, really doesn't look like it would be any worse then Pokemon Stadium. I think the biggest fear is circle camping but maybe we should have it legal until this is proven gamebreaking?

Reset Bomb Stage, as dean suggested, would have some crazy bias MU's but I don't think that's warrant for a ban. Definitely makes it a counterpick not a starter though. It'll just be a force ban for some MU's, and I don't think it's so crazy that it'll REALLY be a force-ban except for maybe Little Mac. I think whether characters have a hard time approaching from above is MU dependant and I also don't really think you have to be forced to approach from above on this stage either, so I don't exactly agree with Attila. That also seems like a hasty tiny call to ban a stage when at this point it's not random and there are no obnoxiously powerful stage hazards. The skeleton fish ain't got nothing on Klap Traps from Japes.

@ Gords Gords I like you're list of Starters/Counterpicks, it's a great starting point imo. I think that we already know that the hazards on Brinstar dictate the state of the game too much so I don't think we should have stages like this legal. The Brinstar experience is not a fulfilling one.
 
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