Meta Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion

[Star ☆]

Here's an analysis of our online tournament last night. Please everyone, take a look and tell me what you think.

 

[Lex__]

Some of these games have monstrous skill curves/walls that once passed provide immense advantages. If you can name any competitive game ever that has had anything banned purely due to a skill curve/wall, please enlighten me because not only do I think the idea of making the game more new player friendly is a joke but this game is currently so un-technical and easy to pick up in comparison to anything ever already.

TF2 bans items which are straight upgrades, or are janky/different (Its been a while, seems like they have since relaxed a bit on the banning of items https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Competitive_item_restrictions), im not saying its like what you talked about but I thought it would be interesting to the conversation as its simaler to what we have (defaults and customs that can replace them)

Honestly after playing with custom moves last night, there was some fine moves which didn't give any huge advantage, then there was some moves which gave a huge advantage, Links power bow ( I thinks its called this) Hit me at 80% across the map and KO'd me. I don't know how I feel about some of these, compared to other seem op/straight upgrade.

 

[EverAlert]

Can someone please check if it shows anywhere during local play? either in CSS or in match? because if not people might have to watch players choose their char so that they don't pick equipment filled chars.

The only thing you can see at a glance is whether or not there are any stat gains (grey circle on the CSS). This is whether you have equipment on or not. Without explicitly showing the loadout in the editor there's no way to tell 1) the chosen custom moves, or 2) special effects given from equipment.

 

[Redact]

TF2 bans items which are straight upgrades, or are janky/different (Its been a while, seems like they have since relaxed a bit on the banning of items https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Competitive_item_restrictions), im not saying its like what you talked about but I thought it would be interesting to the conversation as its simaler to what we have (defaults and customs that can replace them)

Honestly after playing with custom moves last night, there was some fine moves which didn't give any huge advantage, then there was some moves which gave a huge advantage, Links power bow ( I thinks its called this) Hit me at 80% across the map and KO'd me. I don't know how I feel about some of these, compared to other seem op/straight upgrade.

I've been a part of some of the groups that made these rules for TF2. The reason for things being banned was that getting the items could be hard at points, or had a detrimental effect on the game. Most of the banned items resulted in really long stalemates and chokepoint spam or were such a clear choice over the default that you were unviable as the class without it. The ones that have gone from banned to be allowed have had large changes in this aspect (sandman used to stun through uber) which stopped them from being detrimental to the game.

The idea that TF2 has followed with items has pretty much been this:

Is the item really good/broken good?
Is the item hard to get?
Is the item detrimental to gameplay?

If you answered yes to 1+2 or yes to 3, then it was banned, otherwise it was legal.

 

[dreadtech]

The only thing you can see at a glance is whether or not there are any stat gains (grey circle on the CSS). This is whether you have equipment on or not. Without explicitly showing the loadout in the editor there's no way to tell 1) the chosen custom moves, or 2) special effects given from equipment.

that's good then cause in netplay there is no grey circle anywhere, if it's there in local play we can at least raise the issue if we see coloured circles

 

[Lex__]

And heres the arrow,

 

[Redact]

that arrow is redonk wow

maybe link wont be trash tier

whats the supposed draw back for this arrow?

 

[Star ☆]

that arrow is redonk wow

maybe link wont be trash tier

whats the supposed draw back for this arrow?

It falls to the ground if you don't charge it to full. But I don't think that's enough of a drawback, it's way too good.

 

[Redact]

It falls to the ground if you don't charge it to full. But I don't think that's enough of a drawback, it's way too good.

It may be good yes to the point where he changes a whole tier due to this, but based on how link is, it's not like he is going to go from low to so broken mk would cry tier.

I think it needs more playtime before things like this get banned. Yeah sure its good but it needs to be shown that theres no reasonable solution or is detrimental to gameplay before a ban occurs.

 

[Splice]

Yeah sure its good but it needs to be shown that this custom move is in play before the match starts and it's all good

Fixed.
As Redact implied, customs hopefully will actually bring more characters into the viable or top tier realm. I don't think Link is the best character with or without this, so I don't see much grounds for it being banned. If it was not clear that this was the custom in effect before the match starts, though, then that's not a very enjoyable surprise at all.

 

[Atticus]

Look at the history of smash and you'll see the tendency of rulesets is to become more and more restrictive. It wasn't that long ago that brinstar, rainbow ride etc were legal melee stages. We used to say 'we only ban stages that contain random elements / break the game in an unbalanced way / etc' but eventually we just accepted that we don't want to play on **** stages and ended up with the 6 everyone actually spends their time on in friendlies anyway. It should be noted that basically no one ever regrets trimming the fat, but they do regret not doing so sooner.

 

[Luco]

I don't really get the whole 'the person shouldn't tell you what their moves do' argument. I mean sure, there's no actual obligation for them to but i'd dislike that stigma. It's similar to say, if I was in brawl and versing a newbie or even sometimes a vet. If I do a Dair to Dtilt lock as Lucas and the other person is like "what the heck just happened!? ;_; " then i'm not gonna just laugh and not tell them about it. To this day I don't think i've ever told someone about the dtilt lock without telling them that the Dair can be SDI-ed or that you can tech after the final hit of Dair. Custom moves would, and should, be exactly the same. You should be able to ask a person what a custom move does just like you would ask them how a particular tech works. If you guys think asking people about custom moves is going to take up so much of our time then you might as well try and stop people asking about general info on the game lol. Sure people can lie but that's not something we socially promote so if someone does it then they just look like a... well yeah.

If we employ custom moves, I personally feel like showing them is a good idea for the reasons Splice has mentioned. I feel like knowing what the options are is better than having to play cautiously which imo is honestly just a barrier. I feel like it wouldn't be a barrier if there was any merit to NOT playing cautiously but if they're hidden then there is literally only one strategy to dealing with it, which imo doesn't add a very complex layer to the game, but that's just me. And if we decide to show them, you should be able to ask what they do if you're unsure, much like a technique. The other person doesn't have to answer, but they can.

 

[Atticus]

Also, thoughts on custom moves specifically:

On one hand, having custom moves as 'hidden information' sounds like a bad, unfun addition to the game. On the other hand, having to **** around double blinding/counterpicking them sounds awful too.

But the again, I predict having to memorize 12 for every character is super unlikely, almost every character will probably have their set selections of "the good ones" that you can expect with 1 or 2 possible deviations at most and the other ones will be unusable garbage. The interaction between your custom move selections if both characters are known are probably slim to none.

I'm not really convinced either way yet, but so far I'm not feeling like they add enough to justify the drawbacks of their inclusion.

 

[Shaya]

The way the tier list in this game is already shaped is heavily based off character's base strengths that we've seen in their normals and standard usage of their specials.
There's obviously an almost disgusting imbalance between the tilts/aerials of say Rosalina and... Link. Mac's to say Ganondorf. Most custom specials offer characters a means of breaking through zoning in a somewhat risky, but worthwhile reward for doing so. Matches are moving faster because neutral isn't "oh my **** is twice the range of yours, oh and I have Luma, enjoy eventually hitting me" its now oh you can be within my dash attack range and not be without zero options to capitalise, if you shield an attack I'm easy to punish, and as you actually have means of pressuring me in neutral, I actually... you know, have to do things but stand there and react to your weaker options.

If you want a game more aligned to brawl than melee to have a more dynamic and likely enjoyable/competitive lifespan, you'd want a scenario where it isn't literally the top tiers with single/multiple overwhelming moves ****ting on low/mid tiers until we adjust to a 5-10 character game. At which stage, most players would've gone back to Melee again.

 

[Attila_]

A good move doesn't make a bad character good, it makes a bad character stupid.

It's a similar thing to how low tiers in PM work; they aren't good by any means, but if they get their jank on, they can win a match. It's not a good way to make the game fun or competitive, it just makes stupid things happen.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

or you could just stop being bad...

powershielding is super easy like in melee in smash 4, so is teching

 

[Shaya]

It's obvious you haven't even played with them in any serious way Attila, lol.

Custom specials aren't just broken/dumb variations of moves, they're moves with different properties that I've yet to see are anything other characters don't have in some form. You can give Meta Knight a Brawl-esque Falco Side-B (considering his overall nerfs, his need of an alternative rush down that covers different options/ranges allows him to actually still... do things in match ups), Palutena an Up-B that is an amazing kill move/DP; you can also give a character like Ness an Up-B projectile that's larger and kills (as well as a boosted PKT2) but loses all recovery power.

 

[Attila_]

I play against tibs; it's probably more serious practice than anyone else here has access to...

 

[PK Gaming]

Re: Custom moves

I know it isn't a perfect comparison by any means, but competitive Pokemon is fundamentally played with blind picks. Pokemon are shown in advance, but their movesets, items and natures are hidden. There are near infinite amount of Pokemon combinations, but competitive Pokemon players constantly take that into consideration and adapt accordingly. I don't think it's unreasonable for Smash players to do the same.

Again, they're completely different games, but I don't think custom moves will break tournament play. If customs are allowed, eventually we'll start seeing staples (like in Pokemon), and players will be able to anticipate them, so it's not like we'll be 100% in the dark (most Marth's will use Assault Dive, most ZSS's will use default neutral B, etc). We might see an extra layer of mindgames regarding certain matchups such as Robin main taking Speed Thunder over Thunder+ in certain matchups.

We should definitely give them a chance.

 

[Gords]

And heres the arrow,

DK punch and Falcon punch are both default specials that can kill falcon at 87% from the same position, heck a charged little Mac's neutral B (not his KO punch) and mega mans fully charged forward smash can kill falcon at 87% from nearly the same range as in the video. (all tested with falcon at 87% just a little left of centre battlefield). there are probably others as well but dont have time to test everything.
if this arrow was his default arrow you wouldnt be showing it would you, you would accept it and find solutions to dealing with/avoiding/punishing it.

I play against tibs; it's probably more serious practice than anyone else here has access to...

serious question: what character/s with what custom specials have you used for more than one session?
and what has been some of the ways tibs has adapted to this/these particular builds
Similarly, what has been some of Tibs' fav custom character builds, and how have you adapted to those?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

DK punch and Falcon punch are both default specials that can kill falcon at 87% from the same position, heck a charged little Mac's neutral B (not his KO punch) and mega mans fully charged forward smash can kill falcon at 87% from nearly the same range as in the video. (all tested with falcon at 87% just a little left of centre battlefield). there are probably others as well but dont have time to test everything.
if this arrow was his default arrow you wouldnt be showing it would you, you would accept it and find solutions to dealing/avoiding/punishing it.

And don't forget "janky" stuff like Jigglypuff Rest and Luigi Up B.

Even Ganondorf Up Tilt. loool

That video was bad because there was multiple ways Falcon could have avoided it. Like not laying on the ground for a second and letting Link Boomerang/Arrow him.

 

[Luco]

DK punch and Falcon punch are both default specials that can kill falcon at 87% from the same position, heck a charged little Mac's neutral B (not his KO punch) and mega mans fully charged forward smash can kill falcon at 87% from nearly the same range as in the video. (all tested with falcon at 87% just a little left of centre battlefield). there are probably others as well but dont have time to test everything.
if this arrow was his default arrow you wouldnt be showing it would you, you would accept it and find solutions to dealing with/avoiding/punishing it.

To be totally fair, all of those characters in that situation would have a required a certain level of commitment in order to KO falcon. They would have had to have been right next to him with the option for him to punish them if they failed. Link's arrow in that vid has no such downsides - he was quite far away with no way to be punished for the move and Falcon was at the loss.

I'm just playing devil's advocate; personally i'm rather inclined to try custom specials until we find something so game-breaking we have to change it.

 

[Splice]

A good move doesn't make a bad character good, it makes a bad character stupid.

It's a similar thing to how low tiers in PM work; they aren't good by any means, but if they get their jank on, they can win a match. It's not a good way to make the game fun or competitive, it just makes stupid things happen.

I seriously hope this doesn't happen, because that element of PM sucks. This is a good point, although you do exaggerate sometimes and I've seen many custom moves; for now, it doesn't look like it's on that level.

It's obvious you haven't even played with them in any serious way Attila, lol.
Custom specials aren't just broken/dumb variations of moves, they're moves with different properties that I've yet to see are anything other characters don't have in some form. You can give Meta Knight a Brawl-esque Falco Side-B (considering his overall nerfs, his need of an alternative rush down that covers different options/ranges allows him to actually still... do things in match ups), Palutena an Up-B that is an amazing kill move/DP; you can also give a character like Ness an Up-B projectile that's larger and kills (as well as a boosted PKT2) but loses all recovery power.

This is not a productive post. You should've put the jank little text in normal font size and deleted the part where you try to discredit someone elses opinion based off nothing.

That video was bad because there was multiple ways Falcon could have avoided it. Like not laying on the ground for a second and letting Link Boomerang/Arrow him.

If he knew that this arrow was in play, then yes, he made a poor choice.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

If he knew that this arrow was in play, then yes, he made a poor choice.

Well it was a poor choice either way, it like committing to things under Bowser and then getting down B'd and being like, "oh well if he didnt have that custom down b i would have only gotten hit by the default one".

 

[Sieg]

Yo you guys should check out WiiFit Up B special that **** is jank.

That being said, I love custom moves, but holy crap a lot of people complain about them. Anything that they don't know or that is different from the norm pulls calls of "OP! Broken as ****" etc. I honestly would have to agree with Luco here, there's nothing broken about anything I've seen yet, and I don't think there will be really.

Basically just man up and learn the moves, if people playing Tekken can learn like 100 + moves per character I'm sure learning 3 different variations isn't going to hurt anyone. For that matter, most character have specials that are useless anyway unless they're set for special situations. I mean Little Mac players, especially at the start here where there are obviously glaring weaknesses are going to go for moves that aid in recovery, since it's the biggest point of contention for the character right now. Instantly you've got less moves to learn/care about.

I think learning to deal with them is going to be better in the long run, I'd hate for us to come back in a year and go "Why didn't we learn about the multiple styles to play said character that we could have been pushing/adapting into back then?"

 

[Splice]

Well it was a poor choice either way, it like committing to things under Bowser and then getting down B'd and being like, "oh well if he didnt have that custom down b i would have only gotten hit by the default one".

unless it changes speed which i dont know anything about so yeah I guess.

 

[Shaya]

This is not a productive post. You should've put the jank little text in normal font size and deleted the part where you try to discredit someone elses opinion based off nothing.

I don't think I'm basing it off of nothing though. I didn't believe the rest of that post would mean anything to him, as he already has a predisposition towards banning them, has only based things off of sparingly few videos/clips when he makes any statement, and counts playing against Tibor as superior to any one else also playing the game.

I erred on the side of caution earlier, I've gone from "we shouldn't have these legal until we know enough about them" to undoubtedly choosing to not acknowledge tournaments if they get banned without proper usage and analysis to determine it. I've not seen a single move in this game as a custom special (or default special) that comes even remotely close to Brawl Meta Knight's Tornado or Shuttle Loop.

I've also gone from "okay if we're going to allow customs, if some are problematic, we should just ban them all", to "I'd definitely rather ban specific specials that break the game". Custom specials are the most interesting thing to brace the Smash series in... ever. There are multiple specials that can change the playstyle a character adopts; awesome, or buffs one merit of a move while nerfing another (like let's say taking hitboxes off of Up B's for further/invincibility) to make a character over all stronger; and in some cases there are match up specific tools.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I think that Custom Moves are a good idea, as they add variety to the game and can dramatically change the way a game or a matchup is played

 

[S.D]

Re: Custom moves

I know it isn't a perfect comparison by any means, but competitive Pokemon is fundamentally played with blind picks. Pokemon are shown in advance, but their movesets, items and natures are hidden. There are near infinite amount of Pokemon combinations, but competitive Pokemon players constantly take that into consideration and adapt accordingly. I don't think it's unreasonable for Smash players to do the same.

Again, they're completely different games, but I don't think custom moves will break tournament play. If customs are allowed, eventually we'll start seeing staples (like in Pokemon), and players will be able to anticipate them, so it's not like we'll be 100% in the dark (most Marth's will use Assault Dive, most ZSS's will use default neutral B, etc). We might see an extra layer of mindgames regarding certain matchups such as Robin main taking Speed Thunder over Thunder+ in certain matchups.

We should definitely give them a chance.

If this was competitive pokemon half the roster and movesets would be banned. Lets try not to be smogon yeah?

And don't forget "janky" stuff like Jigglypuff Rest and Luigi Up B.

Even Ganondorf Up Tilt. loool

That video was bad because there was multiple ways Falcon could have avoided it. Like not laying on the ground for a second and letting Link Boomerang/Arrow him.

Wow great logic - move x isn't broken because the player in that video could have avoided it. Well in a perfect world we'd all avoid everything with our frame perfect execution of everything ever, so it wouldnt matter if a character had a 1hit ko move that was spammable from across the map because we're all so flawless.. like wtf every argument people make in this thread u counter with a one liner about people being scrubs or some baseless logic to back up a baseless viewpoint, why are you a mod again?

Anyway, with regard to that setup sure he missed a tech, but that wasn't the situation that got punished, he got hit with the boomerang on the ground (which he didnt tech but guess what it's wifi) then got TECH CHASED with a ****ed up arrow. It wouldnt have mattered which way he teched it would have taken the slightest adjustment in timing to hit him either way he went. Good setup into a great kill move.

Anyway the more this thread drags out the clearer it becomes that custom moves should be legal. That much we can establish no?

 

[PK Gaming]

If this was competitive pokemon half the roster and movesets would be banned. Lets try not to be smogon yeah?

Nice try, but no dice. Competitive Pokemon doesn't begin and end with Smogon.

Competitive Pokemon that's actually played at official tournaments (VGC Nationals/World Championships) barely ban anything. The only Pokemon that are routinely banned are cover legendaries (aka, Mewtwo and Kyogre Pokemon that aren't meant to be competitive) and event-only Pokemon.

But that's veering off point. My point was that competitive Pokemon players can adapt and deal with the unknown, and that Smash players should be able to do the same.

You only have to this video to get a sense of what I mean. Top level Pokemon players adapt and deal with the unknown constantly. It's not entirely a fair comparison, since that's fundamental to Pokemon, but even so... Even in spite of the fact that there's an element of randomness to it...

Pokemon is still engaging

Pokemon is still entertaining

Pokemon is still competitive

I genuinely think that Smash with custom moves would be the same.

 

[Dekar289]

Anyway the more this thread drags out the clearer it becomes that custom moves should be legal. That much we can establish no?

ofc, the debatable rule now is whether or not announcing one's custom moves before a match should be mandatory

 

[Venks]

If this was competitive pokemon half the roster and movesets would be banned. Lets try not to be smogon yeah?



Wow great logic - move x isn't broken because the player in that video could have avoided it. Well in a perfect world we'd all avoid everything with our frame perfect execution of everything ever, so it wouldnt matter if a character had a 1hit ko move that was spammable from across the map because we're all so flawless.. like wtf every argument people make in this thread u counter with a one liner about people being scrubs or some baseless logic to back up a baseless viewpoint, why are you a mod again?

Anyway, with regard to that setup sure he missed a tech, but that wasn't the situation that got punished, he got hit with the boomerang on the ground (which he didnt tech but guess what it's wifi) then got TECH CHASED with a ****ed up arrow. It wouldnt have mattered which way he teched it would have taken the slightest adjustment in timing to hit him either way he went. Good setup into a great kill move.

Anyway the more this thread drags out the clearer it becomes that custom moves should be legal. That much we can establish no?

I don't really think Link's custom arrow is broken. But then again I come from MvC2 and UMvC3 where getting hit once means that character is dead and that your next character has to come into screen against an unblockable set up. Perfectly legal.
Good ol Firebrand.

Link's arrow can kill, but it can't be used as a quick projectile. That looks completely legitimate to me. It's not like it's a move that guarantees a free KO. He needs a set up and for his opponent to be at high enough percent.

ofc, the debatable rule now is whether or not announcing one's custom moves before a match should be mandatory

It makes sense to me. People will see our custom moves in the Wii U version so why not start announcing our custom moves early?

 

[Dekar289]

It makes sense to me. People will see our custom moves in the Wii U version so why not start announcing our custom moves early?

Oh? this is very good news

 

[Shaya]

It's also not too hard to show people their specials quickly in the lobby "FD" that you get in between each match (which is probably significantly more then they deserve beyond knowing say "their special number" or their names).

 

[Dekar289]

right, player's certainly aren't obligated to actually show the moves and/or explain how they work, just the name/number is enough.

 

[Splice]

Nice try, but no dice. Competitive Pokemon doesn't begin and end with Smogon.

Competitive Pokemon that's actually played at official tournaments (VGC Nationals/World Championships) barely ban anything. The only Pokemon that are routinely banned are cover legendaries (aka, Mewtwo and Kyogre Pokemon that aren't meant to be competitive) and event-only Pokemon.

But that's veering off point. My point was that competitive Pokemon players can adapt and deal with the unknown, and that Smash players should be able to do the same.

You only have to this video to get a sense of what I mean. Top level Pokemon players adapt and deal with the unknown constantly. It's not entirely a fair comparison, since that's fundamental to Pokemon, but even so... Even in spite of the fact that there's an element of randomness to it...

Pokemon is still engaging

Pokemon is still entertaining

Pokemon is still competitive

I genuinely think that Smash with custom moves would be the same.

Top level Melee player adapt and deal with the "unknown"; mixups and options, what is the opponent gonna choose? You're making reads and calls already in a fighting game purely between player decisions, without the addition of this kind of 'hidden information' and undisclosed abilities.

Melee is already engaging and entertaining and competitive, and I think you'd find most of the people here playing it with a competitive interest would prefer it to Pokemon in these areas. Just because another highly competitive game thrives on these kinds of concepts doesn't create a strong supporting argument that Smash should also use more things like this.
By nature Smash is intensely deep without the inclusion of hidden information, that the gameplay is potentially diluted by adding more of this stuff in, because the core of the game is already strong and that's what a lot of people want to focus on.

Smash players already make the same 50/50 calls and stuff that Pokemon players do; we make reads and guesses.
DI traps are a good example.
We don't need to hide what the custom moves do to create this, I believe it will do nothing but inhibit the pace of the neutral game + a few gimmicky situations where you might setup a move and depending on which custom you have they have to do something else to dodge.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

EDIT: nvm wrong thread

 

[S.D]

Nice try, but no dice. Competitive Pokemon doesn't begin and end with Smogon.

Competitive Pokemon that's actually played at official tournaments (VGC Nationals/World Championships) barely ban anything. The only Pokemon that are routinely banned are cover legendaries (aka, Mewtwo and Kyogre Pokemon that aren't meant to be competitive) and event-only Pokemon.

But that's veering off point. My point was that competitive Pokemon players can adapt and deal with the unknown, and that Smash players should be able to do the same.

You only have to this video to get a sense of what I mean. Top level Pokemon players adapt and deal with the unknown constantly. It's not entirely a fair comparison, since that's fundamental to Pokemon, but even so... Even in spite of the fact that there's an element of randomness to it...

Pokemon is still engaging

Pokemon is still entertaining

Pokemon is still competitive

I genuinely think that Smash with custom moves would be the same.

Believe it or not I'm aware of VGC, and their rules are often detrimental to healthy competition.

Look back at previous gen when they allowed swift swim/drizzle combo... and how many non rain teams did you see?

Sure pokemon is competitive, but when you have serious discussion about viability of competitive aspects of a game you end up with a body like Smogon, which for better or worse eventually eliminates option after option after option when the metagame calls for it. I retract my previous statement about being like Smogon as a bad thing, because they do what the believe is for the betterment of the community AND A HEALTHY METAGAME. They would have ousted Metaknight early on in Brawl's life, alls im sayin.

EDIT: probably the one parallel here is the custom move set option in smash is relevant to pokemon as you don;t know what set they're going to have. However, once you see their party it's not tough to work out their sets, or at least pretty close to it, as there are probably fewer than 12 viable options for each pokemon anyway.

ofc, the debatable rule now is whether or not announcing one's custom moves before a match should be mandatory

I realise this is the discussion but noone has really concretely said - custom moves will be legal.
Also the topic has veered into broken link arrows etc.
As Atticus said there will be one dominant build almost everyone uses, so at the end of the day it won't matter much if you see their set or not, though I'd advocate for making it known prior to play for uniformity with the Wii U version. You can't keep it hidden there so why should you on 3DS?

I don't really think Link's custom arrow is broken. But then again I come from MvC2 and UMvC3 where getting hit once means that character is dead and that your next character has to come into screen against an unblockable set up. Perfectly legal.
Good ol Firebrand.

Link's arrow can kill, but it can't be used as a quick projectile. That looks completely legitimate to me. It's not like it's a move that guarantees a free KO. He needs a set up and for his opponent to be at high enough percent.



It makes sense to me. People will see our custom moves in the Wii U version so why not start announcing our custom moves early?

I wasn't arguing Link's arrow was broken, I was arguing Aero's logic.
I have no issue with that arrow, even though it's insane.

 

[Dekar289]

the online 3DS tournament had custom moves legal and required players to announce their moves beforehand.
the upcoming melbourne monthly will be no different.
this new fact (to me anyway) that the WII U version will display custom moves only buries the issue, i think.

back to stagelist discussion? a 2nd cp 5th stage would be nice...

 

[Luco]

Hold up. We should sum up our thoughts then before moving on.

So our thoughts on custom moves so far seems to be (and stop me if i'm wrong):

- Custom moves are legal but should be announced before the match, due to the fact the wii U version will most likely support this anyway and consistncy is required across the platforms.
- This is still under contestion though and is liable to change if new info comes up.
- Custom moves themselves are a case of 'innocent until proven guilty' in terms of banning.

Shaya brought up a point on that last one with one of his posts. Do we ban individual custom moves or is that too messy? If a custom move is found to be overpowering, does that justify a ban on them all?