Meta Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion

[Remastered]

Gentlemen's rules are the best kinds of rules.

 

[EverAlert]

I've been playing this almost nonstop since the Japanese release.

- 3stock 8min, at least to begin with. 8min as a limit has proven successful over time (and has nothing to do with stock amount because it is a logistic ruling), and stocks don't really get taken slower than in Brawl. No need to fix what ain't broke, 3ds already has a large logistical advantage anyway. Copying For Glory for the sake of familiarity to newcomers is not a very strong argument in my opinion.

- We should put as many stages as possible on to begin with and cut liberally before the WiiU release. Since older players more or less know what to expect from stages, there is certainly precedent to start with a short stage list. However, since right now is the only real chance we're going to have to experiment a lot with the ruleset, I think we should use this opportunity to validate our assumptions in actual tournaments. As for the actual stage list, see this (shown by Gords earlier).

- Maybe Omega Ferox should be the only FD? I think combining all FDs into a single pick makes more sense than separating the types into separate picks because the single platform layout plays a much larger role in stage selection than the details of the underside, and Ferox feels like the most neutral of them to me. Alternatively, combine all FDs into a single pick and have the gentleman rule for the specific version, but use Ferox as standard pick in the case of no preference or disagreements? (I changed my mind/was convinced otherwise about making versions separate picks since discussing it with Gords originally).

- Certain FDs have crappy environment properties. There are stages where you can't see character shadows (Greninja matchups) and stages where the camera zooms out really low so you can't actually see the floor of the stage or the lower half of characters most of the time (affects visbility in general and is really annoying to deal with, and Greninja matchups again). Should probably get rid of these regardless.

- Allow custom moves. Don't allow equipment. I think most people agree with this so I won't go into detail. Hopefully you will be able to transfer your unlocks to the WiiU version so we can avoid a logistical nightmare. At the very least, we already know you will be able to transfer custom fighters. Nintendo isn't stupid enough to make players unlock ALL that stuff twice... right?

I think that's pretty much everything I feel strongly about.

Assuming you know all 12 moves a character has access too, what difference does it make if they're on or not? You play to accommodate the 12 possibilities. The same way you would play if all 12 moves were on at the same time.

Why would you (or should you) play as though all 12 moves are in play when you can only ever have 4 on at a time? Formulating a gameplan before the match starts is kind of a fundamental aspect of smash and basically every competitive activity ever. It's one thing to expect players to learn about the moves on their own time, but not knowing what moveset you're about to play against goes against this aspect; you might use this knowledge to influence your striking and counterpicking choices, and you have a chance to review your gameplan before gameplay starts.

 

[I LAG]

Custom moves allowed? im open to it maybe in months time but now? Do half the people in here even know what zeldas and sheiks new down Bs Are yet? and each character can have 12 different specials if i remember correctly.

td;dr Too early for custom moves

 

[KuroganeHammer]

With the exception of Palutena and Mii Fighters, custom moves are still essentially the same move but with slightly different properties.

Example: Lucina's down B variants are all counters, Greninja's B variants are all water shuriken projectiles etc etc

Bolding "12 different specials!" comes off to me as laziness and unwillingness to learn rather than actual concern for the meta, especially considering we should know at least 4 of them =P

 

[Dekar289]

it's a tournament.
if you don't understand all the moves in the game, you're hurting your own chances in the tournament.
i don't know the custom variations of kirby's neutral b, that's my fault.
similarly, i don't know what little mac's aerials are, and that's also my fault.

melbourne will probably have all custom moves legal for the upcoming couch warriors tournament.

 

[Gords]

Why would you (or should you) play as though all 12 moves are in play when you can only ever have 4 on at a time? Formulating a gameplan before the match starts is kind of a fundamental aspect of smash and basically every competitive activity ever. It's one thing to expect players to learn about the moves on their own time, but not knowing what moveset you're about to play against goes against this aspect; you might use this knowledge to influence your striking and counterpicking choices, and you have a chance to review your gameplan before gameplay starts.

I think there are many examples of competative activities that thrive off multiple option for you and the opponent and without the opponent knowing beforehand the selections you made. examples

Spoiler

a very competitive activity where this is true is pokemon. A single pokemon may have access to several moves but only 4 at time. you wont know what out of these moves the opponent pokemon has until they use it. however certain builds are favoured over others, which will happen with smash as a meta developes, which not only does this relatively reduce the variation you will see but once you see one move you can predict the rest of the pokemons build.

another example of competitive gaming where the variations are unknown to your oponent before the game begins is TCGs.
let take hearthstone, i que up for a ladder match, and get placed against a warlock. there are literally thousands of combinations of cards that can make his deck. However there are only a few common themes that are likely to appear. Is he playing Handlock or is he playing Zoo (these are completely different and require vastly different play to beat). by turn 3 i basically know the answer and play accordingly.

a real time example is Starcraft (albiet not a very good example). I may know my opponent is Terran, it said that on the loading screen, but there are many ways he could playout the early game that are viable in competition. I am not going to know what he is actually going for until i scout him out. but usually once i see (or not see) a certain unit, structure, timing i basically know what I am up against.

even though there are 81 different combinations of builds for each character as the meta developes its likely that your only going to see half a dozen or so, the ones that seem the most viable for the given matchups. you will learn how to deal with these builds and will most likely be aware of which one they actually went with pretty quickly based on how they play. Not really necessary to know exactly what moves they have before battle.

Custom moves allowed? im open to it maybe in months time but now? Do half the people in here even know what zeldas and sheiks new down Bs Are yet? and each character can have 12 different specials if i remember correctly.

terrible idea, you should start with custom moves and let a meta develop and cut things out later after they are shown to not be viable in tournament rather than have a restricted meta develop and then change things completely from what people have gotten used to.

here is a video that i generally agree with when regarding customizations
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdIgI63X2zk#t=779

 

[EverAlert]

@ Gords Arguing against something I didn't say mate, and one of the examples isn't even valid anyway. You can know everything your opponent can do before starting a game of SC2. A Terran can make a Marine, but not a Zealot; you may not know what he WILL do, but you know what he CAN do (which is the same as smash).

Anyway, I strongly disagree that it's not necessary to know. Pokemon and TCGs are games built around hidden information. Fighting games are not; everyone has access to all the information. The focus of interaction is completely different. Special moves are a fairly large percentage of your options and not knowing them doesn't improve the interaction in any way.


@ I LAG It will only get become harder to implement as time goes on. How many additions to the Brawl ruleset happened over its entire lifespan? Now is the time. Honestly I don't see how knowing the moves is any different to knowing frame data/advantages, all the ways microsituations can play out, how all your matchups work, etc. etc. Do your research lol.

 

[Splice]

it's a tournament.
if you don't understand all the moves in the game, you're hurting your own chances in the tournament.
i don't know the custom variations of kirby's neutral b, that's my fault.
similarly, i don't know what little mac's aerials are, and that's also my fault.

melbourne will probably have all custom moves legal for the upcoming couch warriors tournament.

That said, players should BE INFORMED which moves are selected going into the match.
I know what Little Mac's fair is going to do when it hits and I know the hitbox it's going to have.
When Little Mac uses his custom SideB, I want to know what it will do when it hits and what it's gonna do. I can learn this before the match, but if I am not told which move the character actually has then this is different; Little Mac can't hide from me what his Fair does before the match. I already know it's going to be the specific, one kind of Fair that exists.
Moves and character chosen off the top of my head.

In response to @ Gords , sure other games are about hiding information OR contain hidden information, but in this aspect Smash has never been about that. Chess isn't either. Just because scouting is integral to Starcraft and random bull**** is integral to Hearthstone doesn't mean we want it in smash.

I agree completely with EverAlert about custom moves and whatnot, but I want to know how this is actually gonna work. How are we going to use custom moves in our rulesets? What if I see Zelda wants her UpB that recovers higher, but I know she wants this so I get my custom GnW bacon which will let me edgeguard this for some reason because of hitboxes? Now Zelda wants her other UpB because she just wants to sweetspot and not get edgeguarded and it won't get hit by bacon. So I change my Bacon back to normal so I can use it in neutral game. I made this example because It's too early for me to come up with anything but we're going to need a custom-move picking procedure to prevent this custom move counterpicking from becoming a stalemate.

My lazy first suggestion is game 1 = Double Blind. Both players show each other their custom moveset choice before the game starts.
game 2 = Loser picks custom moveset choice after the winner does
game 3 = same as game 2

OR double blind every time but both players show each other their custom moveset choice before the gamestarts.

p.s. Is greninja shadow the only reason not to have the default FD as the tournament standard in the case of a disagreement of gentleman rules? I think ledge and underside difference makes a slightly bigger impact than visibility of the shadow (as in, you can still see it it's just less contrasting). Feels weird to have other stages as the "default FD" but I do agree Ferox is visually easy to deal with, just wanted to know more.

 

[Redact]

Custom moves should be legal. It adds so much to the game and brings nothing detrimental.

Not announcing moves at any point is best imo. I don't plan to use any custom moves but with that in mind it's the same way any other competitive game is in this regard.

Starcraft or dota you know what options they have, its just a matter of you dont know what option they have chosen until use. Characters have 12 options at most which is far less than the item choice in dota through fog of war, or unit choice is starcraft in the same situation.

Selecting moves should be done at the same time as selecting a character, so selection would be:

Game 1: double blind characters + moves at the same time. You don't pick characters, then reveal, then do moves after knowing what their character is. You choose all at once.

Game 2 onwards: Winner bans stage (would we even have bans with such a small stage list?) then loser picks stage, then winner picks character + moves, then loser picks character + moves. Again at this stage you would not reveal your moves during selection which stops theres from being excessive counter picking.

Custom moves do not appear to be immediately broken, and they should be treated like any other aspect: Legal until clearly an issue.

The fact that we have multiple stocks is what allows the margain or error or gimmick that comes with custom moves. Smash 4 is extremely forgiving in that you are not going to die from 1 error, and the reality is you will not be gimmicked to death by not knowing the moves your opponent picked because after they use it once, you should know.

There also is the aspect of forcing the moves out to find out what they are.

The old arguement that is anywhat decent against having custom moves is the surprise aspect, which IMO is extremely negligable.

The arguements for custom moves are a much bigger benefit than the immediate detriment that custom moves provide. Again this is all until proven broken.



You can also think of this from another aspect. Let's say I find brand new tech that I have not shown anyone yet, I don't have to reveal it before the match so the opponent knows what's coming, and it's a brand new option that the opponend did not know about until I used it. This is the same as a custom move in the surprise aspect and custom moves should be even easier to adapt to in comparison seeing as we should all already know counters to each move if we expect to win, where as brand new tech would require research to beat (which already should be done against all custom moves)



The idea that fighting games are not build on hidden aspects or not knowing information, why can this not change? The idea of removing aspects because the game is "not about this" is the same as removing wavedashing because it "was not intentional". It's a limitation you are placing on yourselves because of your own idea of what is better or not.

The only aspects that have been removed from smash are the ones that break the game in some way. Stalling is banned for obvious reasons. Freeze and invicibility glitches again for obvious reason. Items introduce luck (which does not determine the better player). Bad stages introduce excessively lopsided matchups, degenerative tactics or luck based gameplay again.

Custom moves will not introduce any of these aspects. Custom moves introduces an unknown information aspect (again in plenty other tournament games, has been shown to be a benefit to competitive play, not a detriment.) and an adaption aspect (same story ect ect). These aspects further enhance the idea of the best player winning. I chose x y z custom moves because it works good again the opponents character. I chose x y z custom moves because my opponent normally chooses this move, and my moves will work against it. This play and counter play is exactly what heaps of other genres have, and is something that has been introduced into smash as a new idea which in turn we can embrace and enhance the game.

We are the ones here deciding what should and should not be legal, and just because the previous games did not have it, does not mean the current games can't have it either.

 

[S.D]

On the shadow thing with FDs I feel like people will counterpick levels that advantage them in some way, so I don't see how Greninja picking a stage that benefits him with visuals as any different to Marth CP YS melee because his sword hits on platforms better.

I've changed my mind about custom moves (not that I know what any of them are yet), and agree with Billy. They create the same issue as double blind picks on character before a set, as people will want to chop and change their custom sets to adapt to their opponent. If custom moves are to be legal they probably have to be double blinded and shown to the opponent prior to the first match, which in the wiiu version is going to create some time issues with people needing to double blind 5 things (character and moves) every time and set up accordingly. Following game one custom move selection should factor into the standard CP system. It's messy but if people want them in I don't see a way around it.

People who are saying "just be ready for all 12 options" are just wrong.

Given the moves are all different, you can't possibly be prepared for a one size fits all response to every move they COULD throw out. This line of thinking is just whack, yes smash has a large knowledge base requirement but what you're suggesting could almost force people into camping out an entire stock/match to bait out b moves just so they know what they are, which is not conducive to good gameplay.

However, being ready to cover all 12 options is not really the issue here. As Red says custom moves could potentially add an extra element to gameplay... not sure how this will play out though.

Anyway, I'd say custom moves legal for now, but known to both players and into CP system.
Mii fighters banned.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Why are we banning all 3 mii fighters again?

 

[Redact]

My stance on stages is the following:

Neutral:

Omega ferox
Battlefield
Yoshis Island

Counterpick:

Prism
+1*

I put the +1 there because for good stage variety reasons I would love to be able to say we have 1 more, then allow a ban in bo3/no bans bo5.

Wether this +1 be Original FD, a Pillar omega (feels reduntant having this) or Original Ferox I do not know.

I do think we should try out Original Ferox and treat it the same way PS1 has been between melee and brawl. Roofs have practically been there before (bottom left of the fire transformation anyone?) and whilst it wasn't as prevalant before, it has never been banned either. I would like to see how ferox pans out in tournament before banning it seeing as if it turns out to be good for tournaments, it would be a huge benefit in terms of stage variety, and we also currently don't have a very clear grounds to ban it in compairison to other bans.

 

[Shaya]

I've played on Ferox a bit. I could be wrong, but transformations last longer than the default stage, unlike PS1.
Cave of immortality / no means of approaching through this **** / walls. It's really annoying/awkward to play through. Like the amount of "things" decided by that stage rather than how/when you hit someone/read them is daunting. It's not like PS1 where its "don't fight, no point" it's now a "you have to fight, unless you want to time yourself out"

 

[Lex__]

Im not so impressed by FD Ferox, it seems to have weird ledge properties

Also is Pikachu + G&W going to be legal for doubles?

 

[Redact]

thats standard smash 4...

Theres huge underneath magnet hands in this game

 

[Luco]

Also is Pikachu + G&W going to be legal for doubles?

Uhhhm, why wouldn't they be?

 

[Lex__]

Uhhhm, why wouldn't they be?

 

[TakFR]

If custom moves are allowed i'd honestly prefer it to be 3 stock 8 minutes so players have more time to adjust to something they've never seen before (it's our first tourney so this is inevitable) for now at least. Also just curious if there turns out to be a ridiculously good custom move all custom moves will be banned right?

Instead of going through all individual custom moves and deciding which ones are deemed legal or not we can just TF2 it and say **** all of them if one is deemed to be completely broken

 

[Remastered]

So if all characters had 12 different B moves on at all times (say one for every corner of the GC control stick) we'd play along, but because only 4 can be switched on, people want to know what they are? .....

I tend to agree with almost everything Redact is saying. The magnet hands are definitely real too.

 

[Luco]

I'd support 3 stocks 8 minutes to start with and if the need arises make it 2 stocks 5 min.

To be honest it'll probably take around the same time anyway if 2S/5M is Bo5, so if personal preference previals then i'd say 3 stock 8 min for the time being.

As for Pikachu G&W... I dunno man.

It seems to me like there'd be quite a few characters that when combod with G&W would be a really big deal if that's the case. If so, then it's not the Pika + G&W thing that needs to be looked at but G&W in a doubles setting altogether.

 

[Lex__]

Guar plaines, practically anyone can up throw on that stage at the top and get a 100% ko I dont think it can be legal.

 

[Shaya]

100% kos isn't a problem.
And being on those higher platforms for grabbing people is asking for sharking/juggling. Those top areas can be platform dropped from and jumped through. It is not like any other walk off/king of the hill position seen in other stages (i.e. side platforms on japes) as to reach them you can come from below and to the sides, and characters don't require their full hops or double jumps to traverse the areas.

It isn't like walk offs where the only position you can advance on them is from their front or above. Both of which are heavily disadvantaged positions for an approaching opponent.

 

[S.D]

That stage is actually being considered as legal?
wow...

 

[Splice]

@ Redact regarding whether custom moves should be shown at the beginning of the match or not

I really don't feel like the burden is on the old way of thinking to argue "why shouldn't hidden information be a thing in fighting games", rather, a case should be made if you're thinking hiding information actually benefits the core of smash.

Do you think wavedashing adds to the depth and also enjoyment and spectacle of Melee? I reckon we don't even need to go there.
Is adding the fear/unknown of a custom move which may or may not be in play going to be on the same level? Would I rather watch someone space aerials to bait and UpB trying to make sure whether a character has the version with strong knockback, are we really adding depth or interest by doing this, or just making players uncomfortable? Do the players themselves think that it'd be a better "test of skill" if figuring out the opponents custom moves 'safely', potentially through trial and error, was a fundamental smash skill?

Personally I don't. I like knowing the frames his earliest hitbox could come out if I do a hit on shield. I like knowing that the first time I do it in a game too. I like knowing he doesn't have a move that can kill me at 85% so I can go in hard. I like knowing that without getting baited by a dumb version of some SideB that has more knockback and has ganked me in this instance.

When you ask "well hey why not", these are the reasons, and then there are reasons why too; maybe people think this is cool or fun. Maybe people think hiding a SideB until using it just to kill with it is actually a mindgame. But I think it's up to the playerbase at large to decide what is the best for the game, because for some people this is pretty important, not something you should wave away saying "well you're not gonna get gimmicked to death by one custom move". For you all you know it could and it's still on the principle that a lack of "the unknown" is what makes smash my preferred competitive game over Warcraft III, DotA 2 and the legendary Pikmin 3.

Please read: I'm not suggesting we display which custom moves are being used just because it wasn't in old smash iterations. I don't think NOT displaying it for this reason is a substantial argument either. I believe it should be displayed because I can confidently say I prefer the lack of such elements in smash, I do not believe I would enjoy the game quite as much if they were added. It's not just about me, but I'd like others to actually think about this properly. What do other people think? Archaze must think I'm ******** for wanting to know how I should be spacing from the start of the match.

@stagelist: I think it's really a great idea to start with a open stagelist and then weed it out, as EA suggested that's the best way to do it. But I'm gonna be hella surprised if Gaur Plains sticks around for over a month.

 

[Gords]

@ EverAlert I wasnt trying to argue against you in particular but more give reasons why i dont think letting your opponent know the specials you have selected is necessary. basically I wanted to say what Redact said but I am not smart enough to properly express myself as well as redact put it. I almost completely agree with everything in Redacts post about custom moves.

Although a positive I have for knowing the custom moves someone has chosen is that you can counterpick custom moves as well based on the moves your opponent has selected. Obviously this would be built into the counter pick procedure.

the difference between 3DS and WiiU here is that on 3ds it is completely hidden what your opponents move selections are, but on the WiiU it can be completely obvious what they choose (you will see them select it). which allows for move counterpicking meta.

This thread (http://smashboards.com/threads/game...res-for-custom-movesets.370167/#post-17676526) details a decent procedure that can be implemented. I also almost completely agree with @Amazing Ampharos here (post 3).

for the WiiU a way of ensuring that we know the move selections is have the first custom character slot of each character on each console dedicated to tournament play. everytime you want to change move selection you edit this slot only. That way you are not just selecting a build that was done already. this also means that players who want to have many custom builds for their personal games only really needs to give up one slot for each character instead of having the customs messed with at every tourney.

p.s. Is greninja shadow the only reason not to have the default FD as the tournament standard in the case of a disagreement of gentleman rules? I think ledge and underside difference makes a slightly bigger impact than visibility of the shadow (as in, you can still see it it's just less contrasting). Feels weird to have other stages as the "default FD" but I do agree Ferox is visually easy to deal with, just wanted to know more.

standard FD is floating type, and the is also Pillar type. some characters/players may prefer one type over the other. so to keep it fair we choose Omega Ferox as the standard since the ledge, underside is a mix of both FD types. nothing to do with greninja's shadow since you can see clearly the shadows on standard FD.

On the shadow thing with FDs I feel like people will counterpick levels that advantage them in some way, so I don't see how Greninja picking a stage that benefits him with visuals as any different to Marth CP YS melee because his sword hits on platforms better.

you can see marths sword coming at you but on FD Pacmaze, FD pictochat 2 (and FD balloon fight?) you cant see the shadow at all. seriously. Actually try pause the game and rotate the camera. greninja also doesnt have any animation in his movement when he uses this move, while the shoadow is out he is walking running or jumping just as like he hasnt got a show out

 

[KuroganeHammer]

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2imvop/for_clarification_this_is_how_you_play_on_some/

Aerodrome must think I'm ******** for wanting to know how I should be spacing from the start of the match.

i dont understand

 

[S.D]

I porbably shouldn't comment on the greninja thing (or anything about sm4sh) coz i got nfi bout the game at this point lol.

 

[Hardpelicn]

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2imvop/for_clarification_this_is_how_you_play_on_some/

Very VERY unlikely this will follow through the the Wii-U version as it's a hardware/performance consistancy thing.

 

[Shaya]

That stage is actually being considered as legal?
wow...

I most definitely do not mind it. It could be a circle camping issue, but iono, it feels like the characters and/or specials that can potentially abuse it have a lot of other risks involved in doing so. Perhaps jigglypuff, wario and yoshi players should have a say, they're the guys who'd be most potent on such a large platform filled stage.

Many stages that I don't mind may not be suitable for singles, but I could see them being ok in doubles~

I'll just say that this game is different, lag on a lot of actions is surprisingly effective at evening out the cast and traditional platform camping does not have the same breadth of options available to them as they once did. [Fast] Falling speeds, walking speeds and dash speeds are much higher overall, with most characters having good height in their jumps, rolls are faster on everybody. You can move around quickly but that's all you can do without commitment. Ground games are where commitment/lag is generally lower but aerials still have great hitboxes/properties for punishment.

 

[Splice]

wat, didn't want to post this post but might as well use it for something.

@ KuroganeHammer : typo, meant someone else starting with the letter A

 

[Lex__]

Also, no way F-zero could be a stage, it has no bottom blast zone and no ledge edges and stage hazards

 

[EverAlert]

p.s. Is greninja shadow the only reason not to have the default FD as the tournament standard in the case of a disagreement of gentleman rules? I think ledge and underside difference makes a slightly bigger impact than visibility of the shadow (as in, you can still see it it's just less contrasting). Feels weird to have other stages as the "default FD" but I do agree Ferox is visually easy to deal with, just wanted to know more.

It has nothing to do with Greninja, I just think the wall+lip combination on Omega Ferox makes for a nicer offstage game on average because it creates options and reduces certain recovery skews a little bit. Not having a lip is a problem for some characters offstage (most notably Little Mac); having the option of being under the lip might not sound like much but it is at least an option to work with. Having the wall under the lip isn't as significant, i just think it adds some potential for creativity.

Im not so impressed by FD Ferox, it seems to have weird ledge properties

All lips in the game work this way... it has to do with the grab box not overlapping the edge during the sweetspot frames, you can still sweetspot if you up b slightly higher. If you space it vertically the same this will happen with any lip.

Also the Pika+G&W thing was possible in Brawl and not banned iirc (someone correct me if I'm wrong), the video you linked I think is more likely an extreme example due to unfortunate spacing and probably not knowing what to expect (not to mention G&W had two sources of thunder) rather than of the true dominance of the strategy. It is a pretty strong strategy though.

Why are we banning all 3 mii fighters again?

Firstly, I don't feel too strongly either way about banning or not banning this, and I know this wasn't directed at me, these are just my thoughts.

I feel like the main reason to do this would be for logistics, especially with the WiiU version. If we are going to take a stance against hidden information, this would apply to Mii Fighters too, meaning we would need some procedure for showing the exact height of the Mii, since that affects its stats. Even without going into the difficulties that come from the fact that Mii is a 100% from scratch custom made fighter, I simply think that there is probably no way to easily identify the type of Mii you're up against that doesn't add a lot of time to the set. You could have premade community-standard Miis, but I don't think this is enforceable in practice. How do you know the "standard" Mii your opponent is using isn't tampered with without seeing him create it from scratch?

The other aspect of them I don't really like is that since their stats can change then they share an issue with equipment in that it's simply not feasible to be able to practice against all possible variations and know your options in a match in every case. Obviously not on the same scale as equipment, but it's in that direction.

As far as game balance itself, there is like no information at all on them yet to form the basis of a ban (and even if there was, now wouldn't be the time).

 

[KuroganeHammer]

there are 6 default mii's on every system

 

[Lex__]

Also the Pika+G&W thing was possible in Brawl and not banned iirc (someone correct me if I'm wrong), the video you linked I think is more likely an extreme example due to unfortunate spacing and probably not knowing what to expect (not to mention G&W had two sources of thunder) rather than of the true dominance of the strategy. It is a pretty strong strategy though.

Thunder now fills up the bucked in one go, and will always do max damage from it, allowing for 1 hit ko's every time.

 

[Jamwa]

I feel like picking custom moves will take as long as picking stages in Project M
maybe we can enforce a 1 minute limit or something (maybe longer I dunno) because people can take 2 years when it comes to these things

 

[Redact]

Circle camping is a huge issue in guar, ive already done it to people and it definately works in many matchups. No chance of it being legal here in vic.

Also again everyone seems to be assuming there is some broken custom move out there waiting to happen. Banning things does not work on assumptions like this.

Nothing gets banned unless its very clearly an issue that has been proven.

No one has shown any broken custom moves yet, so we don't ban them until it's shown to be an issue. The same is with the idea of custom moves.

I have changed my stance on pre determining moves that I think it should be announced at the same time as picking a character. We can't feesably watch peoples screens to ensure they don't do sneaky move changes once they find out who or what they're against without clarifying before hand. I think this would be a bigger issue than hidden moves.

It also should reduce the time it takes for moves because once its announced that's it, where as hidden moves people could mess around heaps and waste time.

Also I think we should ban the pika gnw team. Its been winning heaps across lots of regions by lots of players who don't play either character. Id understand if it took effort or required intricate character knowledge, but that team needs neither to be super effective.

 

[M]

Frequency of Karts in Rainbow Ride is very low (seem them about twice a match MAX). Is this really enough to rule it out as a viable counterpick? The karts are reasonably slow and show up with big warning signs, don't last long, etc. Outside of that, seems to be another fairly standard level similar to Prism Tower.


On the custom moves topic: I'm not sure if it's already been mentioned but there is the glaring fact that if we were to show our hand of customs before the round starts, multiplayer DS rooms give you no means of actually visibly showing the opponent which customs are actually equipped. This means...
A. Players may have to leave between games and go to options just to show them.
B. It'll come down to having the players verbally explain them which in some cases could be time consuming enough in itself, and I'm sure we will eeeeventually run into cases of a player possibly giving false information etc.

Playing blind and relying on a breadth of knowledge, however daunting it could be, is easily the fastest (and possibly fairest) method to doing things.


Personally don't care either way though.

 

[Gords]

Also, no way F-zero could be a stage, it has no bottom blast zone and no ledge edges and stage hazards

no bottom blast zone - not a reason for ban
no ledge edges - not a reason to ban
stage hazards - nothing in this stage actively tries to harm you, interfere with you nor kill you until relative death percents, if you got hurt its usually your fault.
we dont ban stages because they lack certain features of have certain properties that are different from most other stages.
We ban stages because they either excessively interfere with players (eg yellow devil),
encourage unimaginative and/or stalling strategies/gameplay (walk offs, circle camping layouts)
F-Zero doesnt have anything of these, hence why it shouldnt be banned until it can be shown to often determine the winner

I feel like picking custom moves will take as long as picking stages in Project M
maybe we can enforce a 1 minute limit or something (maybe longer I dunno) because people can take 2 years when it comes to these things

I think we should see if this will be a problem before we implement something like this.

On the custom moves topic: I'm not sure if it's already been mentioned but there is the glaring fact that if we were to show our hand of customs before the round starts, multiplayer DS rooms give you no means of actually visibly showing the opponent which customs are actually equipped. This means...
A. Players may have to leave between games and go to options just to show them.
B. It'll come down to having the players verbally explain them which in some cases could be time consuming enough in itself, and I'm sure we will eeeeventually run into cases of a player possibly giving false information etc.

Playing blind and relying on a breadth of knowledge, however daunting it could be, is easily the fastest (and possibly fairest) method to doing things.

I believe if we announce custom moves that really the move name is all that is required to let them know, this can easily be achieved by showing your opponent your move selection screen after selecting your build. this is all accessible via the CSS so no exiting the multiplayer DS room. On WiiU you can watch your opponent select their moves, again via the CSS.
players shouldnt have to explain what a move does just what they have selected, it is the responsibility of the competitors to know what things do. As dekar puts it

it's a tournament.
if you don't understand all the moves in the game, you're hurting your own chances in the tournament.
i don't know the custom variations of kirby's neutral b, that's my fault.
similarly, i don't know what little mac's aerials are, and that's also my fault.

I am starting to favour letting your opponent know your selections as well after the good points made my @ Splice , however I am aware that policing this on 3DS is difficult. On WiiU though this is ridiculously easy to manage.
I still feel though that announcing move selections is still not a major issue (not yet at least) that we could have it so that the WiiU, which will be the primary platform for Smash 4 competition, should have it so move selections are public (likely better method and also logistically difficult to hide selections). On 3DS though we could have move selection happen where they are not public (logistically difficult to be made public).
some advantage of having these 2 different systems for different platforms is that we can test which way works better.
And if we find that both systems work adequately in competition then 3DS and WiiU will have slightly different flavours and metagame approaches instead of just being a portable version of the same game.

 

[EverAlert]

For custom moves on 3DS you could just have them say the move numbers, like "1312" or whatever, then you don't even need to know the move names (also they might be translated differently across versions, and different languages). I think announcing is probably good enough. You could just lie, but I don't see people doing that much when they're gonna look like a huge **** immediately after.

I feel like this only turns into a logistical problem if we are entirely committed to guaranteeing players are using the moves they say they are, when we realistically only need to deal with it for a couple of tournaments or so and it probably won't be an issue anyway. Also if we're dead set on it then it's not like it takes that long to go out of the room, show it, and come back in (around 30 seconds). Again, we can afford to spend a little more time on sets since we're gaining a lot of flexibility just by it being 3DS.

Since it doesn't sound like anyone everyone is 100% certain about this: No, you cannot access the custom move editor without leaving the multiplayer room, you can only see the panel for choosing the moveset.

To be honest I'd much rather spend a little extra time to know my opponent's moveset beforehand than to spend a little extra time and percentage ingame figuring out what they are.

there are 6 default mii's on every system

Are they editable? Also, are they the same across regions?

Thunder now fills up the bucked in one go, and will always do max damage from it, allowing for 1 hit ko's every time.

Ah, I wasn't aware it didn't fill in one go in Brawl. I've seen people survive this (repeatedly) in Smash 4 though.
Now I want to know if Villager can pocket the oil.

Frequency of Karts in Rainbow Ride is very low (seem them about twice a match MAX). Is this really enough to rule it out as a viable counterpick? The karts are reasonably slow and show up with big warning signs, don't last long, etc. Outside of that, seems to be another fairly standard level similar to Prism Tower.

The problem is on certain transformations they're not that easy to avoid without putting yourself in a REALLY terrible position, even if you know when they're gonna come. They also have relatively high kill potential compared to similar stages in past games (at least it seemed this way to me). Overall the stage isn't too bad but this turned me off it a lot.

 

[Jamwa]

I think we should see if this will be a problem before we implement something like this.

how much do you wager?