Meta Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion

[KuroganeHammer]

My biggest problem with Ferox is that half the time it's the fire transformation of PS1 where one person sits on one side of the stage and the other person sits on the other side. Approaching either side is difficult so most players just wait the transformation out.

 

[Luco]

I'm not averse to Arena Ferox being used, though Aero does make a valid point (we'd probably have to wait and see how it would work out though before we completely took it away, I think.

Reset bomb... I think i'll concede to Splice's argument this time; and yes I agree with having a larger set of stages early on.

The list looks really good, though I dunno how I feel about F-zero being used. That stage is gonna destroy me so badly ahahah, won't be used to it.

 

[Gords]

My biggest problem with Ferox is that half the time it's the fire transformation of PS1 where one person sits on one side of the stage and the other person sits on the other side. Approaching either side is difficult so most players just wait the transformation out.

from what i have seen there are no transformations of ferox that come remotely close to interfering with approaches on the same level as the fire and rock transformations of PS1

 

[I LAG]

if the omega stages are smaller than FD i really think that they should replace FD as a starter. But then there is an issue with stage striking to decide the starter. Maybe just the omega floating should take FDs place if there is a size difference.

 

[Jamwa]

I agree with Billy's stagelist because he used colours to prove his point and it worked on me

 

[Rad]

Brinstar and Japes have the problems they've always had. If we want to start out with a safe ruleset than these could be banned from Day 1[./quote]

A safe ruleset is risky. Well you don't risk anything really... but Brinstar is a fun counterpick. And it's not like MK is a thing. The game is a huge mystery right now and you can veto stages anyway.

 

[Splice]

@ Rad
I don't think Brinstar was banned coz of MK although some people might wanna tell you that. Whenever the stage lowers so he can't shark it suddenly becomes his worst stage against any top tier who can kill upwards (Snake, GnW, Wario, Olimar, I daresay DDD), or top tiers who are good at platform camping (Wario, GnW). It's also hard to gimp people who pop up from lava. This doesn't matter though.

I kind of agree with your outlook on trialling Brinstar/Japes but I feel it's a waste of time; from what I remember, the pattern of Brinstar's 8 stage-positions (pretty sure it had 6 or 8, way more than it looks like) is random and active hitboxes like lava are huge when they swallow the entire main platform of this stage. Having combo's/zoning/pressure interrupted like this is not ideal for competitive 'no johns' smash.
The Klaptraps on Japes are bull**** but iirc they are timed (and hopefully still are). They're also pretty avoidable. In this case I realise now it's probably unfair to group Japes with Brinstar? Maybe we should give Japes a shot.

The veto stage argument is good but I'm pretty sure we want people to have to ban a stage because it's bad for their character, not because it's unfit for competitive play and could yield volatile results.

 

[Rad]

Is the question volatility or is it whether the stage is too polarising? Which is impossible to determine when the game is brand new.

 

[Splice]

Is the question volatility or is it whether the stage is too polarising? Which is impossible to determine when the game is brand new.

A stage being polarising for characters just means it should be a counterpick; I don't see it as a ban condition.
Brinstar is volatile, and we can assume this because it is a returning stage. It does a bad job of letting the players actually fight each other.

 

[Luco]

Well let's refine that - there's a line between a stage being polarising to the point of being CP status and polarising where it's entirely unfair. Thus the ban on walk-offs due to their nature of polarising MUs that involved campy characters or ones that otherwise benefited from walk offs in some way (CGs and the like). This is an important distinction to make because if something is TOO polarising then yes I would see that as a point against its competitive viability.

This therefore brings us back to the question of whether Brinstar is TOO polarising. I'd say due to the nerf on a few select characters it's probably worth a shot - and besides, I always liked that stage (and it's good for nostalgia), so if it was my decision then yes i'd say give Brinstar a go.

 

[I LAG]

Does anyone think that a 2 stock game is not enough time/life to adapt to someone's playstyle you didn't expect? I was initially in favour of a 2 stock 5min rule but 3 stock 8min allows the smarter player to adapt and hard read the opponent for a longer period of time to possibly even turn games around.

 

[Wizzow]

I think once the WiiU version comes out 3 stock might be a better option, but for now 3 stock games can get dragged out a lot.
2 stock 5 mins, but having Bo5 earlier in the bracket sounds pretty good in my opinion.

 

[Luco]

Well Bo5 does slightly mitigate that issue. I would say that 2 stock Bo5 would be fine for similar reasons that Shaya made for the use of the 1 stock rule for brawl, however while the game is still fresh, i;m not fussed in particular. I'd say 2 or even 3 stock is fine, obviously changing the Bo3/5 depending on which one we use. Either is fine by me imo.

 

[Splice]

I personally would like more stocks for more adapting to play out, but I also think it'd be a good environment if players who are turned off by longer games didn't have their toes stepped on. But hopefully 3 stock won't be that slow anyway, we just don't know yet.

Luco you ignored my only point about why Brinstar isn't a good stage :/

 

[dean.]

custom moves yay or nay?
i assume equipment will be banned...

 

[Attila_]

No custom moves I think, unless it's a side tourney. Half of them are super broken; the game becomes really dumb.

In regards to Ferox/Bomb Reset, I have a strong dislike of stages than inhibit the ability of one player to kill the other. In PS1, the windmill was pretty much the only thing that would stop a kill, but even then, a follow up was pretty easy. But having ceilings in the middle of the stage really inhibits getting the kill, and makes the player with the stock lead at that point pretty ridiculous.

I also think that anytime a player HAS to jump to approach means that the stage is silly. Aerial approaches are even less safe than they were in brawl (thanks to the airdodge nerf), so sitting on one side of the stage and waiting for the opponent becomes a pretty broken tactic. Unless you have a better projectile, in which case, they're in trouble.

 

[Jamwa]

Custom moves? What is this Project M?

Spoiler

 

[Luco]

I personally would like more stocks for more adapting to play out, but I also think it'd be a good environment if players who are turned off by longer games didn't have their toes stepped on. But hopefully 3 stock won't be that slow anyway, we just don't know yet.

Luco you ignored my only point about why Brinstar isn't a good stage :/

Ahhh woops, sorry! Didn't see that. :o

Brinstar is... weird in regards to actually fighting on it. To some extent, a stage that prevents direct confrontation like brinstar is awkward mainly due to the fact it promotes camping as well as often just being annoying for the players involved. However with the general nerf to camping in this game, i'm not so sure it will be that big a deal. Yet... based on its previous performance, I could see it being banned. It's hard, that's why i'd prefer to trial it and see whether the different mechanics of smash 4 and the resulting meta will influence how this stage will end up working out. I'm pretty easy going on it, though.

 

[Gords]

Does anyone think that a 2 stock game is not enough time/life to adapt to someone's playstyle you didn't expect? I was initially in favour of a 2 stock 5min rule but 3 stock 8min allows the smarter player to adapt and hard read the opponent for a longer period of time to possibly even turn games around.

Ted mentioned that he would prefer to see 2 stock matches Bo5 for the whole event over 3 stock matches, I tend to agree and will likely lean toward this for the 3ds game at least, long sets will roughly take the same amount of time (30min) and still allow for adaptive play over the set. The WiiU may benefit from 3 stock since easier controls and more precise movement which should make gameplay more consistent and punishing which results in faster games

No custom moves I think, unless it's a side tourney. Half of them are super broken; the game becomes really dumb.

I say allow custom moves at first, there are many great arguments put out on the internet (including smashboards) from notable figures in the wider smash community that support (and how to implement) the use of custom moves in tournament. Many notable events have already used them with success (eg KTARX) and from what I have seen and played with them there are very little custom moves deemed overpowered. I would prefer moves that are proven to be too strong in competition to be banned individually before banning the whole concept from day 1, this just seems hasty imo

A bigger question is the use of Miis, the general consensus from the wider community seems to be favouring banned since there are no default Miis and size/weight affect strength/speed values and couple that with having to set up your Mii for every WiiU (not too much a problem for 3ds though)

In regards to Ferox/Bomb Reset, I have a strong dislike of stages than inhibit the ability of one player to kill the other. In PS1, the windmill was pretty much the only thing that would stop a kill, but even then, a follow up was pretty easy. But having ceilings in the middle of the stage really inhibits getting the kill, and makes the player with the stock lead at that point pretty ridiculous.

In Brawl the windmill also gave the ability to kill opponents earlier in a stage spike fashion (not an issue in melee), so it works both ways. also in both brawl and melee the windmill is no where near the only thing that stopped a kill, other include the tree stump (both sides) on the fire transformation, the giant rock and slanted platform of the rock transformation. but as you said follow ups are relatively easy which allows players the opportunity for custom combos when either reading/reacting to the opponent dealing with getting hit into these kinds of objects. The same applies to ferox and again I believe we should include it for some events and gather data before jumping to conclusions.

Its easier to cut things out after they have been proven to be a problem than add things later when we notice the stage list just straight out benefits certain characters/playstyles. Same thing applies to custom moves.

I also think that anytime a player HAS to jump to approach means that the stage is silly. Aerial approaches are even less safe than they were in brawl (thanks to the airdodge nerf), so sitting on one side of the stage and waiting for the opponent becomes a pretty broken tactic. Unless you have a better projectile, in which case, they're in trouble.

What stage/s are you referring to here and how exactly do they force an aerial approach?
I feel that characters play a bigger role than stages when certain approaches are required.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Custom moves as a side tourney? No. That's what equipment is for.

It's like, the biggest addition to Smash 4, why on earth would we ban them all.

Besides, hardly any of the custom moves are actually broken. Almost all of them trade one thing for another.

 

[DD_]

Hey All, just giving some input after having run the net play smash 4 tournament on Sunday night. We had 19 people and started late but still finished at a good time. We decided to run 2 stock 5 mins with only omega stages (For glory rules as it was what everyone had been playing) however we wish to revise this ASAP. In regards to the stocks and timer thought everyone was happy with the settings and no one seemed keen for games to drag on to a third stock or be reduced, it feels just right for now.

That being said, I'd love suggestions for a simple but more complicated rule set for this weeks tournament. People are pushing me for battlefield and YI and I'm keen to include them it's more counters that we're a bit on edge about. Also I'm yet to see any customs that are broken but if someone could give me some examples I'm all ears.

TL:DR I'm looking for the next step up from for glory rules for this weeks net play tournament, can someone provide the goods?

 

[I LAG]

Custom moves as a side tourney? No. That's what equipment is for.

It's like, the biggest addition to Smash 4, why on earth would we ban them all.

Besides, hardly any of the custom moves are actually broken. Almost all of them trade one thing for another.

What happened when people got bored of brawl? brawl+, project M. I say just play the game without custom moves until the meta game becomes stable and boring then we can start exploring custom moves to possibly even bring use to low tier characters.

 

[Attila_]

Banning individual custom moves is really messy, subjective, and makes for a really complicated ruleset. It's an all or nothing thing.

In regards to stages with walls, nothing on ps1 was an intrusive as the hard ceilings on RF and BR. Sit under them and you can't die if you can tech. Ps1 didn't work this way; hiding in the windmill meant projectile death or potential long combos, die to the low height of the windmill.

 

[Star ☆]

What I think is more concerning about Custom Moves is not how good/bad they are but the matchup knowledge and knowing all 12 different special moves every single character has.

Example:

Fighting a Luigi, the Luigi player does not use his neutral special the entire game then on the last stock at 180% he uses it and its the Ice Ball, it freezes me and I die, not having known that he had that move equipped.

Custom Moves forces every player to be ready for all options prior to the specials being revealed in the game, especially when stuff like counterpicking stages come into play; people will have many different custom sets for all characters and they'll counterpick to those sets after losing games, obtaining wins because of a surprise they unleash on their opponent.

While Custom Moves add flair to the game, I don't think it should be a thing in the main bracket, it will cause too much controversy and complaining for it to be worth it. I suggest them to be kept for side tournaments.

By the way guys, this is the ruleset the netplay group will be using for our online tourney until further notice.

 

[Shaya]

My current ruleset:
Note: I think it's a smarter thing to be 3 stocks/8 minutes rather than 2 stock/5 minutes in the earlier days, although I can't deny the pace and the way I'm playing the game now does seem to suit 2 stocks, either way, I'll just say 2 stock/5 here because any tournament I run for Smash4 3DS will be ladder matches; this means I will not differentiate between "starters" and "counterpicks". How brackets or sets which "count for your tournament life" I'd have to really ponder over. I think it'll be possible to go from 3 stock to 2, but not possible to go from 2 stock back to 3.

Stocks: 2
Timer: 5 minutes
Items set to all off and not on.

Legal:
Battlefield
Final Destination: All are available but are considered one stage. This is a no-issue with ladder matches if normal sets (two matches) don't have bans.
Yoshi's Island
Prism Tower
Reset Bomb Forest
Gaur Plain

I've played on just about everything that cusps on legal a lot. I feel like water on japes is too insta-KO, even on the right side, but it could be legal without any other known issue.
Mute City and Rainbow Road could work.
Paper Mario is not really an issue, other than the final transformation which doesn't have ledges/etc.
Ferox is PS1 on steroids, but with less actual playtime on the standard. Cave of immortality all the ****ING TIME.
Spirit Train isn't that bad; but camera zooms and the centre cabin is ass. Removal of ledge play + boundaries feels like solid enough reason to disown it.

Custom Moves:
Legal; no equipment. Custom specials should be set up prior to sets starting. No excuse, delaying a set by virtue of not having customs set up prior is dumb.

So counter pick format:
1. Stage Pick
2. Receiver character pick
3. Server character pick
4. Announcement of custom special choices. Either by Receiver -> Server or by "blind pick"

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I still haven't seen any actual arguments about custom specials being gamebreaking that aren't "i want to restrict the meta" or "they look messy" yet.

Before banning every single custom special, could we please have a few examples of these supposedly "overpowered" ones that have zero drawbacks from using?

Let's take Zelda's Nayru's Love:

Default:
+reflects projectiles
+has invincibility frames

2:
+reflects projectiles
+has more invincibility frames
-does hardly any damage and KB

3:
+Does more damage and KB
-no reflect frames
-no invincibility frames

Every custom move I've seen so far follows this trend, and I have not yet seen a custom special that is overwhelmingly broken. Half the time I like to use default for familiarity.

 

[Gords]

for WiiU you will know what moves they have since you can see them select them
bit different for 3ds
knowing what moves your opponent has chosen isnt that big a deal really if you have done your homework

 

[Lex__]

Honestly From what I remembered Ikes second one is just so much better then his default it seemed like a straight up grade

(will have to check for the + and - )

(Im also neutral on this both seem good)

 

[Remastered]

I see no need to announce custom move selection. Once you know all 12 possible options, it's a matter of the player taking these into consideration as the match plays out. Most other fighters have far greater options than that of Smash, and aren't limited to choosing only 4 of all the possibilities.

This is what I'll be running this weekend.

Spoiler

• Singles

• 3 stocks
• Items set to off (Any player found to have items on will forfeit their current game in a set, and will be required to turn items off before proceeding)
• 8 minute timer
• All characters are legal (including Mii fighters)
• All custom move-sets are legal
• Equipment & Badges are NOT permitted (Any player found to be using them will forfeit their current game in a set, and will be required to remove the equipment before proceeding)
• The act of stalling is banned. Stalling is intentionally making the game unplayable, such as becoming invisible, or continuing any infinites past 250%, or reaching a position in which your opponent cannot reach you.
• Any action that continues the game from continuing, such as freezing, disappearing characters, or game resets/intentionally turning off wireless, will result in an automatic loss for the person who initiated the action. In the event of a communication error where the link between handhelds is fully lost, and beyond the control of both players, the match in question will be replayed from the beginning. (Note that this does not include lag, and is only initiated when the link is severed completely & is no fault of the competing parties).
• If the match ends with both players dying at the same time via a suicide move, then the initiator of the move will be declared the winner.
• In the event of a match going to time, the player with the most stocks will be declared the winner. Where the stocks are even, the player with the lowest percent will then be declared the winner.
• If both players die simultaneously by means other than a suicide move, a 3 minute, 1 stock match on the same stage will be played to find a winner.


• Stage list: (No Counters)

Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi’s Island
Prism Tower
Arena Ferox
(Players can decide on Omega stages if Final Destination is selected).

• Procedure

• Best of 3 sets during bracket.
• Best of 5 for both winners and losers finals.
• The first round starting stage will be determined by each player selecting a stage of preference from the legal stage list. The game chooses one of these 2 stages at random, and the game begins.
• The winner of the previous game will ban a stage. The loser of the previous game will elect which stage to play on for the next round in the set. After which the winner of the previous game chooses a character, and then the loser chooses their character. The same sequence of events will occur for each game in a set after the first.
• There is no requirement to announce your selected custom moves.


• Doubles Modified Rules

• Team Attack is set to ‘On’.
• The first round starting stage will be determined by each team selecting a stage of preference from the legal stage list (Each player on the team must select the same stage). The game chooses one of these 2 stages at random, and the game begins.
• The winning team of the previous game will ban a stage. The losing team of the previous game will elect which stage to play on for the next round in the set. After which the winners of the previous game chooses their characters, and then the loser chooses their characters. The same sequence of events will occur for each game in a set after the first.


• Conduct

• It is up to the player to provide his or her equipment during a set.
• Each player is responsible for his/her equipment at all times. Lost, stolen, or broken equipment is entirely the responsibility of the owner, and matches will not be replayed or held up as a result of stolen or broken equipment. (A match may be replayed in the event of a malfunction, only if agreed upon my both competing parties).
• Each player is responsible for their personal settings. Matches will not be replayed or held up as a result of issues with configuration. (This applies to any in game settings).
• Coaching, or advice giving is only allowed between games, not during. Failure to adhere to this will lead to punishment at the TO’s discretion.
• Arriving late for a match will result in a DQ. Players will have 10 minutes from the time of the TO’s calling of the match in which to begin playing. The party who holds up the match will be DQ’d if this time frame is not met.
• The TO has the right to record/save any match played, as well as the right to view any equipment and settings used by competitors in the event.
• Hacks of any kind are not permitted, and anyone found to be using hacks of any kind will be punished at the TO’s discretion.

 

[S.D]

Surely you people can't be serious about allowing custom moves?

First off read Star's post, which makes a very good point about NOT BEING AWARE of which moves your opponent has equipped, thus rendering a significant portion of matchup preparation/knowledge useless.

Second people like me won't even unlock custom moves, and a lot of new players entering the scene will be confused by their inclusion and potentially turned off by them - ie: access issues.

Third you can't have some in and ban 'broken' ones. If there is even one substantially broken custom move they all need to be illegal, and while idk whether there are it sounds like there sure is at least one.

Overall surely, SURELY default has to be the standard, right?

 

[Remastered]

Why is there an issue with not knowing if you know every option, and your opponent is limited to only one? Like any fighter, you play knowing what a character is capable of, whether it's switched on or not. It makes no difference at the end of the day, other than adding a layer of depth to play.

Put it this way. If all 12 moves were all on at the same time, would their be an issue? No, because you would accommodate for what a character is capable of. A number of other fighters have more possibilities, yet it would be an issue if only half could be switched on? That doesn't make any sense at all.

We also assume that anyone turning up has every stage and character unlocked. This is a standard for every version of Smash. Why are moves any different?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

First off read Star's post, which makes a very good point about NOT BEING AWARE of which moves your opponent has equipped, thus rendering a significant portion of matchup preparation/knowledge useless.

The Wii U version will have people able to see which custom moves you select. If this is REALLY such a problem surely the rules for 3DS can be made that both players have to show their loadout.

Second people like me won't even unlock custom moves, and a lot of new players entering the scene will be confused by their inclusion and potentially turned off by them - ie: access issues.

It takes like 10-15 mins to unlock all the custom moves for a character you like.

Wii U will be kinda different though. But hopefully there's some sort of 3DS data transfer.

Also most newer players I've talked to are stoked about custom moves so

Third you can't have some in and ban 'broken' ones. If there is even one substantially broken custom move they all need to be illegal, and while idk whether there are it sounds like there sure is at least one.

That sounds... interesting.

But not something I agree with.

Honestly From what I remembered Ikes second one is just so much better then his default it seemed like a straight up grade

(will have to check for the + and - )

(Im also neutral on this both seem good)

There's like, 300 custom specials, I haven't looked in depth at Ike's 2nd Aether but I remember it not having as much vertical height as default, but there might be one that's much better than the others.

Zelda's default Nayru's is superior to the other 2 imo, so

Ike sucks anyway though, so he needs all the help he can get lol

 

[Remastered]

I don't think there is a necessity to ban any custom moves at present. The meta is in the earliest stages, and if something surfaces that is strong, people learn to play around it.

Leave as much in as possible, and take away as required.

 

[Splice]

If you're not aware about which customs people have equipped why not just make a rule where both players have to let each other know which moves are equipped from the start of the set? This is easy to do on the Wii-U as you can see them equip their customs.

Additionally I haven't seen a broken custom yet just stupid ones. I think they can likely make some characters more viable and help in gross MU's. I do agree it's an "all in" or "all banned" kind of thing just because confusing rulesets are hurtful to new players and can make some players uncomfortable.

Learning what all the custom moves do on the other hand is within the game and while there is a bit of a "burden of knowledge", that already exists in this game and competitive players will learn it. The problem is that not all 3ds players will have custom moves unlocked yet, so in these early times you can cheese kids with stuff they've never seen, and when the Wii-U is out it might be a problem not having all the custom moves unlocked, because this can take some time. @ KuroganeHammer , unlocking the moveset for just the character you like doesn't come close to solving the problem, you need to have hands on time to practice with every single custom move. No-one wants to go to a tournament and lose to something they've never seen before and don't thoroughly understand. It's going to be hard to make players comfortable with custom moves to begin with, but I do think the gameplay itself would be cooler and more characters might be viable in the longterm once we all learn the game.

I think Mii Fighters should be banned because of how much jank there is with weights and things like that. I'm slightly bias coz I personally don't want to deal with more **** that I don't think improves the game, I just hope the majority feel the same way. On the flipside I think custom moves can make our game much better, and I hope the majority feel the same way.

 

[Zxv]

Put it this way. If all 12 moves were all on at the same time, would their be an issue? No, because you would accommodate for what a character is capable of. A number of other fighters have more possibilities, yet it would be an issue if only half could be switched on? That doesn't make any sense at all.

You shouldn't need to be aware of 12 different moves if your opponent only physically has access to 4 of them. A good player will know what all 12 of the moves do, but potentially not knowing exactly which moves your opponent has equipped I can see being problematic.

Personally, I'm all for the addition of custom moves and interesting customisation, but being able to hide what your character is capable of is not what I want to promote.

 

[Attila_]

Just one thing that hasn't been mentioned: on the wiiU version, custom moves are a logistical nightmare. All wiis will need all moves unlocked, and players will all take time to setup; if you want to use multiple characters in a set, this becomes incredibly time consuming.

 

[Remastered]

Just one thing that hasn't been mentioned: on the wiiU version, custom moves are a logistical nightmare. All wiis will need all moves unlocked, and players will all take time to setup; if you want to use multiple characters in a set, this becomes incredibly time consuming.

This would be a nightmare, and will be something we have to consider upon the release of the Wii U version. Also depends on how amibos will work, with their data storage capabilities. Probably the only thing I like about Amibos is that they will likely get around this issue for us.

@ Zxv . Can you explain why it's problematic? Assuming you know all 12 moves a character has access too, what difference does it make if they're on or not? You play to accommodate the 12 possibilities. The same way you would play if all 12 moves were on at the same time. The only thing switching 8 of them off does is limit the options the player using them has.

But a rule can be implemented to alleviate this if it really is a concern. I'm just at a loss as to how it's an issue.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Just one thing that hasn't been mentioned: on the wiiU version, custom moves are a logistical nightmare. All wiis will need all moves unlocked, and players will all take time to setup; if you want to use multiple characters in a set, this becomes incredibly time consuming.

Wii U will be kinda different though. But hopefully there's some sort of 3DS data transfer.

see post

I think Mii Fighters should be banned because of how much jank there is with weights and things like that. I'm slightly bias coz I personally don't want to deal with more **** that I don't think improves the game, I just hope the majority feel the same way. On the flipside I think custom moves can make our game much better, and I hope the majority feel the same way.

You could just restrict it to default miis

or have every mii fighter set to min size, max size and default size

other than that i agree some restriction needs to be on mii fighters because people take like, 50 years to create their hitler/jesus mii before starting their tournament match so

But a rule can be implemented to alleviate this if it really is a concern. I'm just at a loss as to how it's an issue.

I am in agreement with Zxv because i dislike being surprised l0l

 

[Splice]

Just one thing that hasn't been mentioned: on the wiiU version, custom moves are a logistical nightmare. All wiis will need all moves unlocked, and players will all take time to setup; if you want to use multiple characters in a set, this becomes incredibly time consuming.

I have actually mentioned this it's just that no-one reads my posts lol

 

[Luco]

I haven't unlocked all that many custom moves; but from what i've seen it looks like all of them have an attempt at balance due to their respective drawbacks and other features. Might be interesting to see them used. I'm pretty neutral on this idea, actually.

I know it sounds kinda stupid; but if this rule were to be implemented and you had to show your custom character to your opponent, couldn't they just ask you the effect of any particular move if they weren't familiar with it? Like it'd be a goodwill thing so I suppose you could lie to your opponent but I can't see many people taking a lot of pleasure from doing so.