Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[V3ctorMan]

I've commented on your videos Leffen, on the youtube links...

Nothing short but amazing, you've shown some amazing things in these videos... vs King Funk and vs Dev, were IMO the best sets i've EVER seen from any of your videos... Your other videos vs other players are good too, but IMO, vs those 2, they're very good videos to watch for other Yoshi players, who want to learn about him etc, can get a good grasp of things...

Again great stuff Leffen, keep it up! I'll be posting more videos of Yoshi prolly after Apex, again my main focus is on my Roy atm, and soon after likely Mewtwo... but still.. either way good stuff.

EDIT: I'll post on some critique/thoughts, when I get back gotta pay some bills haha... they'll mostly just be ideas/recommendations/theories/ and I'd like to know what you think, I'll put them down in a bit ^^

 

[YOSHIDO]

Great stuff Leffen. You punished dev for just about every missed tech. You did a good job of scaring him into shielding. There were several opportunity for him to try fight with drill to shine to wavedash up smash. But again cuz he was shielding too much you capitalized and he never really started anything for you to fear. Your edge guarding was on point too. Dev on the other hand while doing better than king still didn't understand that part of yoshi. Good job of shield dropping out of pressure and punishing fox on upon landing. Great movement to. Just make sure to still pay attention to Fox(more or less the opponents' position and options) while doing wave lands and what not. It got you hurt and sometimes killed, but it got the job done as far as Dev did not know what was going on.

 

[Hai Im Fearless]

Later yoshi boards it's been real but I'm switching back to peach for apex because I realized how much time you need to invest in yoshi to become proficient at him and I'm DEF quitting after apex so I want to get the most out of it.

 

[darkgirku]

uhhhh wow that was sudden lol.

 

[YOSHIDO]

Lol well i understand you dilemma. I main yoshi but use falco for my bad matchups. I don't think you need to drop yoshi completely. But that is entirely up to you. Good Luck.

 

[Dimitris]

Terebi videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOzrppvbvHk&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL Vs Zoler (2nd match =4stock 50%).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpeqlY1fIe8&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL vs King Funk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp1w7eQbACg&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL vs Dev, WF.


Critique is appreciated, although keep in mind that these vids are 3 weeks old ;o

Bad or good char, Yoshi is a pretty entertaining, lots of sweet combos.
I like this one a lot, with the tech chase http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOzrppvbvHk&t=4m54s

 

[SheerMadness]

Despite leffen being pretty arrogant in this thread those videos are really good. Good job. Makes me wanna play more melee. More melee Yoshi.

It's just so different than 64 yoshi, not sure I'll ever get used to it. I think that's what's mainly holding me back. I'm wayyyy ahead of the curve on his advanced techniques since most of them are the same from 64 to melee. The moves are just so much weaker in melee it makes his play style completely different.

Fearless stop being lame. You know you're not gonna quit melee. We'll play Yoshi together, forever.

 

[YOSHIDO]

Sooooo How bout that Fox matchup. I'd like to start discussing it again. We can discuss Falco too in a little bit. But for me personally I have a lot more trouble with fox than falco. Falco is some what slower, easier to read. Falco still has to think and somewhat space in the match up. He also has low mortality. Fox on the other hand can survive 5 HIV strains and 2 zombie bites.

Fox:
Pros for yoshi.
- He can dj and cc through many of fox's approaches early on.
- Good percent DJC combos.
- Decent edge guard options
- Parry works well against mediocre approaches.
- Bair in general combos works well here.
- Well spaced fair is safe on shield. DJC nair is safe on shield. However the jab afterwards can be upsmash out of. One thing I found that works is doing jab then cross over. Or do jab wait then jab again. This allows you to catch fox jumping out of shield.
- Grabs work well for combos and control.
- Jabs, tilts, wooot.

Cons
- Fox's speed. Only really slows down when landing.
- Combos quite easy.
- Shine combos hurts.
- Nair, Bair, Dair can beat out most of Yoshi's air's when done in reaction.
- Doesn't have to approach
- Can DI out of down throw combos.
- Can knock yoshi out of dj fairly easy.

Thats all I can think of at the moment. Pretty much when fox plays right like techs and even waits a split sec before going in. It can be an up hill battle for yoshi. NO its not impossible. But i do feel when yoshi wins this mu its because he is out playing his opponent hard. Sure yoshi cant make any mistakes. But he also has to capitalize on everything fox does wrong. When fox learns the spacing it becomes a waiting game. I do find that inducing fear in them makes them shield. When they shield its not as bad. The pressure still has to be on point though. He has OOS options like upsmash, grab, shine, bair, dair. Sooo yeah I'd just like to know what yall think about this match up. An how do yall handle some of the bs fox gives yoshi.

 

[Hai Im Fearless]

No, sheer. it's for real this time.

I found a new melee. It's called physics and music theory

 

[leffen]

Thanks for everything vman, I haven't really got time to write back (school etc) but I just want you to know I appreciate it .


Sad to see you go fearless, you really look like you have a huge deal of potential but I understand that you have to prioritize.

 

[Aeromund]

Just got done with a conversation with one of my teachers about passions, go figure. Made me realize that I need to invest as much time in this awesome game while I still have to chance! I am honestly considering couch-surfing the US for smash...

Oh, and if you ever have any questions on music theory, Fearless, I'm may be only a senior in high school, but I've taken several college courses in theory and composition. ^.^

 

[Hai Im Fearless]

I'll still be at apex, just as a yoshi player who's playing peach instead. I'll still have the sick yoshi hat on though . playing yoshi has been the most fun I've ever had in my 3-4 years of melee, without a doubt.

aeromund, add me on facebook if you have one? www.facebook.com/sbelowsky
I just posted up a huge wall of txt about theory

 

[Hai Im Fearless]

actually here just look at this

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=314991

 

[Blistering Speed]

Ok, so I've played nothing but Yoshi vs semi-competent Foxes for the past couple days. Random observations.

- Dash attack is so ****ing good at edgeguarding. Massive duration, automatically extends the maximum distance out of the stage, auto priority over both recovery moves. So much win.
- Shield dropping is amazing. I pretty much don't get shield pressured on platforms with aerials anymore because of shield drop U Air. They're starting to get around this by shine grabs and tomahawk stuff, but that falls under mindgames.
- Yoshi's should never get gimped by a Fox unless they're +150.
- DJC U Air = auto combo 50%+. Every time.
- Is F Air safe on block? Is DJC U Air to F Air a true combo? What %?
- Landing a B Air at >60 is pretty much death.
- DJC N Air on shield leaves like, 10 frames to counter. Throw Egg lay and dash grab in there once they're conditioned.
- U+D Tilt knock over at 0, F Tilt at ~30.
- D Tilt's fixed KB makes for some really really low % kills.

More later. Again, I know this is old news to most/all.

 

[leffen]

I think fox is a really easy matchup once you master it, I think its even in PAL and barely fox advantage in NTSC.
I'll do a write up later if you guys want, its definitely my favorite match up with Yoshi.
Basically tho, just play the neutral game like Hax does with CF, but instead of nair use bair and instead of knee use fairs.

 

[YOSHIDO]

@ Blistering yes a well spaced fair is safe on block. You must L-cancel though. An with regard to djc nair I wonder how instant(short as possible) nairs effect counter opportunity.

 

[Blistering Speed]

@ Blistering yes a well spaced fair is safe on block. You must L-cancel though. An with regard to djc nair I wonder how instant(short as possible) nairs effect counter opportunity.

Ha, I take L-cancel as a given with any aerial. As I said above, it's a 10 frame window between DJC Nairs.

I think fox is a really easy matchup once you master it, I think its even in PAL and barely fox advantage in NTSC.
I'll do a write up later if you guys want, its definitely my favorite match up with Yoshi.
Basically tho, just play the neutral game like Hax does with CF, but instead of nair use bair and instead of knee use fairs.

I'd be interested.

 

[Aeromund]

I'd be interested.

I'd be interested in his interest.

 

[YOSHIDO]

Ha, I take L-cancel as a given with any aerial. As I said above, it's a 10 frame window between DJC Nairs.

So how long are they in shield stun. From my experience djnair to djnair isn't safe but djnair to "get the heck out of there" is

 

[Strong Badam]

 

[yoshiiscool]

made me lol

 

[YOSHIDO]

lol I needed that for finals lol.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Hello Yoshi players, i'm not quitting yoshi till i get THIS GOOD...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjvdV3B0j0U&feature=related

oh yeah practice time..

 

[Hai Im Fearless]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSUSArZ9KKw

Since no one on the peach boards ever responds.....
Any yoshi players want to comment on my peach?
This is against hozart, who's just under colbol-plup level in placings generally in CFL. He's probably going to be on the next PR.

 

[Tekk]

So I picked up Yoshi recently, he's a lot of fun.
But I'm struggling with parrying; how do I get better at it ? What inputs do you yoshi players use ? R + jump at the same time ? I'm clueless.

 

[Nogzor'z]

There are some ways to practice parrying. You could trying parrying vs attacks that are generally easy to parry. These attacks include, but are not limited to:

- Falco/fox's bair or nair
- falcos dair
- projectiles that yoshi can duck are also pretty good. (lasers, missiles, shadow ball etc.)
Any sex kick/ attack that has a long lasting hitbox can be somewhat less difficult to parry.

In reality though, being able to parry consistently just requires time. Some people are able to do it quickly while others take a longer.

I forget who suggested this but, You could try parrying (shield > jump) in place of every time you would jump/short hop regularly. Doing so would be a simple manner of making the button inputs come naturally to you.

As far as input go, I personally just use R + jump.

 

[YOSHIDO]

@ Tek :There are numerous ways you can shield jump. Shield +c stick. Shield + Button. Shield + controlstick. Since I started smash with controlstick it's easier for me to do it that way. The timing is somewhat strict. But you'll be able to train your brain stem for the reflex. You pretty much wanna jump with the R button has been compressed completely. So its roughly like click, then instantly jump. If you do it too early then you loose the max window for catching an attack. You also will get hit because you're in the air jumping instead of shielding.


@Hai Im fearless: Doll is actually my roommate now. And I have a friend max up here whose also a peach. Soo even though I don't play as her. I might be able to give you some general tips. You have the right idea about downtilt. That does lead to sick stuff. Play around with different orders of aerials to see which is most effective combo on what weight. The most important thing you need to work on is your float spacing. Learning at what distant put you outside of your opponents options is crucial. This allows you to counter attack with you float canceled whatever as fast as possible. Too many times you decided to stay on that platform after a wave land. IC's are too strong for you to be directly over them. uptilt and up-air juggles do stupid amounts of damage. Also I don't know if you play at some tournies where wobbling is allowed but you can wiggle out if grabbed before 30%. But yeah good stuff man. I hope this helped.

@Vman: Glad to hear it man.

 

[Blistering Speed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjvdV3B0j0U

TAS Yoshi. Some stuff he missed that I would've implemented but yeah, good stuff. 0:12 to 0:15 ftmfw.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Hello Yoshi players, i'm not quitting yoshi till i get THIS GOOD...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjvdV3B0j0U&feature=related

oh yeah practice time..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjvdV3B0j0U

TAS Yoshi. Some stuff he missed that I would've implemented but yeah, good stuff. 0:12 to 0:15 ftmfw.

Do you not read our thread? this has been posted..

but yes very cool ^^

 

[Engo]

Beginner yoshi player here. I used yoshi in friendlies at the last tourney I went to and had serious troubles with Falco and Falcon. Anyone care to give me some advice on these match ups? I feel like the main problem was not being able to find openings for grabs and getting pressured on platforms which I'm working on shield dropping for this.

 

[StoopKid_Yoshi]

I <3 Yoshi

Hey guys, I'm new here. So my smash career began on the N64 playing mario, and then melee on mario. Went to college, found another smash player who took it to the next level on Falco. It was there and then I fell in love with Yoshi. Only because I was being a **** once and was kicking this dudes butt and I decided to say "Hey, I'll even beat you with Yoshi!" So, Im looking to branch out, but I really want to hone my yoshi. I've got the wavedashing down, and I can egg off the ledge,

Question: but how do you throw the egg, and then hang off the ledge, seemingly in one fluid move? Maybe Im just going too slow. Is your Eggstinction video sped up a bit? youre really good, I'd love to learn a thing or two

 

[StoopKid_Yoshi]

Beginner yoshi player here. I used yoshi in friendlies at the last tourney I went to and had serious troubles with Falco and Falcon. Anyone care to give me some advice on these match ups? I feel like the main problem was not being able to find openings for grabs and getting pressured on platforms which I'm working on shield dropping for this.

hey, so my advice to you... im an intermediate player so don't go telling advanced players that this is what you have to do....

I've found that Falco is really easy to toss around when you damage him up. Yoshi's downsmash is very effective. I dont often grab with yoshi, but I often use the down A light attack to push him off, and when he's charging up his (^B) I nail him with a meteor smash.

 

[Metal Reeper]

How do I parry? Is it just a crouching powershield?

 

[V3ctorMan]

Beginner yoshi player here. I used yoshi in friendlies at the last tourney I went to and had serious troubles with Falco and Falcon. Anyone care to give me some advice on these match ups? I feel like the main problem was not being able to find openings for grabs and getting pressured on platforms which I'm working on shield dropping for this.

Welcome to the Yoshi boards! n_n, which kind of advice would you potentially like? approach? combos? mindset? I mean many things come into equation.

Hey guys, I'm new here. So my smash career began on the N64 playing mario, and then melee on mario. Went to college, found another smash player who took it to the next level on Falco. It was there and then I fell in love with Yoshi. Only because I was being a **** once and was kicking this dudes butt and I decided to say "Hey, I'll even beat you with Yoshi!" So, Im looking to branch out, but I really want to hone my yoshi. I've got the wavedashing down, and I can egg off the ledge,

Question: but how do you throw the egg, and then hang off the ledge, seemingly in one fluid move? Maybe Im just going too slow. Is your Eggstinction video sped up a bit? youre really good, I'd love to learn a thing or two

Welcome to the Yoshi boards as well.. n_n; glad you fell in love with yoshi, which goal(s) would you like to achieve, the more I know about what you'd like to accomplish the more I feel I can be able to help you reach your goal...

Also... Haha, i'm honored.. and "Eggstinction" was indeed not sped up at all, it's normal gameplay, and I appreciate the compliment.. myself and others will do everything we possibly can?

Spoiler

Hard to believe two new Yoshi players, recently joined SWF? Kinda crazy eh? no trolling? =D

How do I parry? Is it just a crouching powershield?

Parrying is a bit more complicated than, a crouching powershield, Crouching, just gives a better window for the parry since it involves Yoshi's upper part of the body which is used to parry best way I can explain it, without, making a mistake since my wording sucks is to read here... http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=73030 (I believe it's in the 2nd post, but much useful information is posted here)

^^

Hope this helps..
Woot Yoshi and Apex sooo soon!

 

[Metal Reeper]

So parry is essentially powershield>DJC>Nair? I really wanna know how to do it. I've really been liking Yoshi lately. How do I approach? Vman how do you DJC? I use X>Y>C stick. I cant get them uairs

 

[V3ctorMan]

As for the parry itself, the window for parrying is small, so be sure to understand it a bit more, but I suppose you could say the timing is familiar with powershielding. Remember you can't parry UNLESS you use a FULL shield input, (you can't parry using lightshielding), must be a full shield input (again my wording for this prolly sucks)

^You don't have to DJC, you can simply Jump... I just DJC>Nair cuz it looks SICK, and I like my options afterwards that I have after using DJC>Nair.. haha, but no you can just jump, or DJC, or DJLand, Upsmash, Parry>wavedash, haha Many options...

I'm glad you've been liking Yoshi! It makes me happy.. ^^

Ummm well which character(s) are you trying to approach?

Wow? X>Y>Cstick.. sounds complicated.. I use X>X>Up+A>FFall>Lcancel, I don't use the Cstick with Yoshi actually.... unless I'm using Fair and even then that's on RARE occasions..

(i.e. jumping backwards and Fairing, and scenarios like that)

 

[StoopKid_Yoshi]

ok, so I think i have the wavedashing somewhat down. I can do it 7/10 times, and im getting better. Im sitting here in training mode and I'm trying to do a few things i see in your video. the one thing that is confusing me is how you run off the edge facing the abyss, and you can turn around in midair and catch the ledge, to edgeguard. I cant seem to do it. My yoshi doesnt want to turn around unless i jump. Do you have to jump cancel?

EDIT : nevermind =P I figured it out. lol it turns out its just really simple. I'll think of something else to ask in a bit.

 

[SheerMadness]

People who don't know how to parry, perhaps you should read the guide and watch the video where I explained it to everyone. =E

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=263122

I think most people djc nair after a parry because:

A. They saw me do it in the video (self recognition yahhh). Or they saw someone else do it in video, who does because they saw me do it hehe.
B. It's the quickest way to punish them.

I forget who suggested this but, You could try parrying (shield > jump) in place of every time you would jump/short hop regularly. Doing so would be a simple manner of making the button inputs come naturally to you.

That would be me, in the huge guide/thread I wrote.

 

[V3ctorMan]

^I actually didn't use it because of you at all... though I know you did it/use it. (The Parry>DJC>Nair, though i'm sure, I just did it because IMO it was the best option.. that I liked the most that fits my aggro style of play

Then again, the only Yoshi i really payed close attention to was Fumi, but yeah sheer has a video of how to do it, he's a 64 Yoshi player pretty beast...

Not tryna take away from you self recognition, just excluding myself from the learned/saw you do it, so I do it club.. etc..

 

[SheerMadness]

^I actually didn't use it because of you at all... though I know you did it/use it. (The Parry>DJC>Nair, though i'm sure, I just did it because IMO it was the best option.. that I liked the most that fits my aggro style of play

But you knew it was the best option because you saw my video illustrating it, and read the thread where I stated it. No?

Hmmm all I know is that I never saw a parry in a real melee match before my video and guide. And I never saw parry to djc in fumi's video. As far as I know my video is the first ever example of someone parry djc nair countering aerials in melee.

Sooo I dunno where else you could have got it from.

I don't think it was a coincidence that nobody ever parried in real matches until after my video/guide. Major props to Shiri for outlining in his guide, but 99.9% of the Yoshi community either didn't understand how to do it or they didn't think it was realistic in real matches.

Not trying to be arrogant or anything, but it seems to me that my video/guide was the main influence in melee yoshis parrying in real matches. And it feels good to know I helped the Yoshi community with a major weapon in Yoshi's arsenal!

Just like fumi/you/leffen deserve major credit for taking Yoshi to a new level and showing the melee community his potential.