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Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

yoshiiscool

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 30, 2005
Messages
352
Location
Murfreesboro, TN (east Pa during summer)
I dunno man... Less than 3 weeks ago you made a post considering yourself to be
I feel that I'm probably tied for 3rd best yoshi with mind trick at the moment
And now you say you don't have complete control of your character? This, to me, seems like an insult to MT, who's been around for years, and has played and done well vs plenty of Europes top players at the time. Not to mention people like me, or Nogzors(Angel), who may not put up videos very often, but still have solid Yoshi's ourselves, even comparable or better than MT. I'm not trying to attack you personally, but I just dislike people coming into a board that's supposed to be used for character growth and discussion, and trying to make everything out to be rankings, or who's better than who. Sorry, but I just needed to say that first.

As far as the vid goes, I'm not really impressed at all. There were a lot of very novice mistakes that need to be worked out, the most glaring of which is holy **** be careful about how you use your double jump. Almost regardless of situation, in both matches, after getting hit you would DJC back into them with an attack. Problem there is you're playing vs two characters that can absolutely destroy you in range and power, so you just get really ****ed, really fast. Big number 2 is your choice of moves after starting to combo, or getting a kill, or really just your move choice in general. Almost every kill in the Ganon match was with an u-air... on Yoshi's Story, which has ridiculously short sides... and Ganon's not exactly difficult to edgeguard either. There's also the comboing thing, at one point I saw you... throw an egg when ganon was right above you in a chain of u-airs? You really need to question these types of things, remember quick u-airs can lead to f-air tech chases, or if there are platforms around, b-air > d/fsmash, DJC u-air > DJC n-air > f-air > tech chase also works from survival DI on the longer stages mid%s. I was happy to see more grabs, and better recovery from you this time though, (please don't down b every time anymore like you did on your first rally of videos) so there were some things you did alright. Your movement didn't seem awfully sloppy, but at the same time, it wasn't anything noteworthy, so you should definitely work on that as well. Just a quick write up of things I remember that caught my eye through the first watch.

Honestly, it's cool to have a goal to be the best Yoshi, I'm just fine with that, but pleeease try to be modest, and thoughtful to others. If you have **** to ask, or want to post anything you feel is an interesting aspect of Yoshi that needs to be worked on/things you've discovered yourself, this is the place to post it, so that we can all discuss it and better ourselves. If you want to claim you're better than people though, and not really post anything useful, I'm prolly just going to ignore you. On that note though, I'm most likely going to be going to TO7, so if you're going up there with colbol/the other guys, I'd be more than glad to hang out with and talk to a fellow Yoshi guy, it doesn't happen often enough.
 

SheerMadness

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2005
Messages
4,781
Uhhhh...

You can parry by prediction.

You can parry by reaction.

And you can parry by chance if you just hit shield right before every jump.

You should be able to utilize all three if you want to be decent at parrying.

Sincerely,

SheerMadness (the dude who's been parrying for 6 years longer than all of you).

:)
 

Blistering Speed

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
2,709
Location
Dot Dot Dash Dot
Leffen, where are these tournament vids? You've officially piqued my interest.

Also, I just realised Yoshi's got a **** ton of way to circumvent his shielding issues, it's just pretty hard to apply them all together.
 

leffen

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
2,032
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
Honestly, Vman didnt have full control either (a lot of techs, including shield dropping he didnt bother with) and he many (prob you too) saw him as the best/2nd best Yoshi so I don't see how it invalidates his claim.

I'm totally fine with people not pushing Yoshi as a character, that instead try to push what they can acheive with Yoshi(since the scene is filled with IF YOU NO DO GOOD THEN U BE BAD HURRDURR I totally understand it) and with it comes not using shield drops etc (I mean, theres like 5 people that can use shield dropping properly in a match and prob just me and Jeapie that use it out of pressure >_>). I just think that is a very short minded mindset that won't last longer than the "learning the matchup" phase .
I absolutely hate the thought of being so inconsistent and gimmicky, that 70% of the match is decided before it actually starts. Comparing that to solidly beating everyone, from your region or not, experience or not which what I'm going for at the moment. This, however, requires you to practice more and it won't be easy on you in the beginning but it has really started to pay off for me.

I dont see anything majorly wrong with HIF being 3rd best Yoshi either, but I've always hated "HEY GUYS I WANNA BE THE BEST _YOSHI_ THERE IS" instead of Yoshi mains just saying "I'm gonna be the best smash player there is" like top tier mains do.
As long as you see your character as a hindrance rather than a useful tool you're success will be hopelessly limited.
Likewise, I've never cared about ppl that say that my Yoshi is worse than Vmans, because those people are in 99% of the cases just seeing Yoshi as a character that will be hopelessly forcing sub par placements upon its user. The only thing I care about is if someone is better than me as a player, as in if they would beat me in a tournament set, their or my character doesn't really matter.

-end random rant post.

edit. I've been working on reverse eggs from edge and some new tech skill, so much to master before apex q_q
 

Gadiel_VaStar

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
2,066
Location
Atlanta, GA
NNID
GadielVaStar
tl;dr - jumbled post about my current be-the-best-in-the-world-by-apex-at-this-games-secret-weapon-yoshi status.
-in order: tourney results, stuff about using notebooks to improve, my sad attempts to get people to talk to me about yoshi

Went 2-2 at the sfl tournament.

beat sfl's best peach (with my peach :p i didnt want to chance losing yoshi vs peach after 4 hr drive)
lost to linguini (had a sick ALMOST zero death first game like 0-90% with a bunch of uairs right from READY....... GO that ****ing no one saw )
beat clay (falco main hasnt been playing more than 1-1.5 yrs or so i think)
lost to travis (samus gimmick that im glad i lost to. learned a valuable lesson early that could have ruined me at apex.)

I learned a **** ton. Took a game from chops' falco in a friendly set. Taking games from good players here and there I just have to clean everything up.

I made a notebook when I was learning peach and used it to help memorize a lot of mindgames and other random things. I attribute me beating a power ranker at my first peach tournament (over the summer that just passed) much so to this.

I just made a yoshi notebook, and it's 3x more filled than my longest peach notes ever were which excites me to levels of bliss you wouldn't understand unless you knew my main history . I learned so many things; I need to practice but I know exactly what to work on for at least now which is good. Anyone want me to post it? it's like 2 pages' worth of stuff I need to improve on. will post if at least 1 person is still reading this jumbled wall of txt by this point and wants to give me their feedback on it.

I really want to have aim\facebook\whatever convo's about certain areas in particular.... hit me up? fb : http://www.facebook.com/sbelowsky aim : firebird1987taka

edit: incoming hype as **** MM vid too
p.s. idgaf how good you guys are at shield dropping, this technique Pi found found is game changing for yoshi and all characters. It's like literally impossible to mess up and you can do it at any speed. Idk you guys may know it already but there are so many uses for it that I'm not seeing that leffen\vect would have figured out by now. I'm trying hard to convince him to let me tell just leffen+vector if they promise not to share but he wont let me til after apex... working on it though.
Can you post this? I'd love to see it :p
 

Pi

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
6,038
Location
Lake Mary, Florida
conceitedness?

apparently u know a fool proof way to shielddrop, why don't all the other yoshi's then? can't you explain it?
maybe it's the same way i know, i know jeapie does it the same way i know
and i said i'll release it once i've done more work on it

kinda like meh atm though because everyone i've shown it too hasn't gotten excited about it so maybe it's not as good as i thought
 

Engo

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
865
Location
the dog,the dog he's at it again!
Hey yoshi players, I picked up Yoshi around 4 months ago and I've been having so much fun with him and I'm really wanting to improve to the point of using him in tourney. From reading this thread I can see that Yoshi is way more technical than I originally thought and there's a lot of stuff being discussed that i don't really understand understand(Not only am I new to yoshi but im also still only a novice player). Could anyone explain/direct me to a thread where these technical terms/techniques like yoshi's parry and other sheild mechanics are explained? There seems like there's so much info/techniques/tricks to yoshi being discussed here that I have no idea about.
 

Hai Im Fearless

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
1,298
Location
Orlando, FL
We really need to make a new thread compiling all the random frame abuse yoshi has that isn't generally known about.

edit: omfg have you tried up-throw on peach? SOOO much better for setting up follow ups than d throw
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
8,084
Location
The Wash: Lake City
hai guys, I picked up yoshi as my main about 4 hours ago. I haven't played with him vs anybody notable, or even any cpu's yet, but I feel at this point im probably 2nd or 3rd best yoshi. I 2nd m2 and fox and have ben shield dropping with them for over a year now, and im really technical and have lots of djc experience. im sure ill get videos soon enough. if you guys have any questions just ask me im sure I can answer them ^_^

<3 yoshi players.

:phone:
 

Hai Im Fearless

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
1,298
Location
Orlando, FL
yeah leffen, you already knew about it, but most people don't because the popular shield drop vid (the HOW TO SHIELD DROP PRO LIKE SHIZ thread one) doesn't explain it correctly
 

V3ctorMan

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
2,261
Location
Sierra Vista AZ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLu5972oPZc&feature=related
This is how I shield drop, and I've been doing it for so damn long lol. I'm pretty sure that there is no other way to shield drop easier than this and if there is, its not needed. I'm honestly just sure you don't know **** about that vid and think you are discovering something new when its almost 4 years old... lol!
Agrees with Leffen

Many players ALREADY know this...myself included, and even use it the same

"sigh" i was sorta hoping it was some crazy, new discovery.. :(

either way good stuff man
 

Pi

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
6,038
Location
Lake Mary, Florida
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLu5972oPZc&feature=related
This is how I shield drop, and I've been doing it for so damn long lol. I'm pretty sure that there is no other way to shield drop easier than this and if there is, its not needed. I'm honestly just sure you don't know **** about that vid and think you are discovering something new when its almost 4 years old... lol!
no dude i was totally one of those views, J/K

ask anyone i told about it, i said there are probably others who knew about this

but you can't stand there there and tell me that it's not new when everyone who i've let know about it had never knew about it before, including PP

so to you it's not new, but to a lot of people it is new
 

Blistering Speed

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
2,709
Location
Dot Dot Dash Dot
Lol at someone going round telling people Shai's stuff is their new secret technique. ****tards.

To be OT, I'm going to be in here a lot from now on. Yoshi, from what I've seen, is the last hyper-undeveloped character in Melee and I'm going to try and help with that. So, so much untapped potential. I'll probably write up a list of reasons why in the next couple days if people care.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
8,084
Location
The Wash: Lake City
no dude i was totally one of those views, J/K

ask anyone i told about it, i said there are probably others who knew about this

but you can't stand there there and tell me that it's not new when everyone who i've let know about it had never knew about it before, including PP

so to you it's not new, but to a lot of people it is new
ive been using that way fir over two years now. I could not completely implement shield/shai drops into my game for awhile but I use them frequently now. its not old but not new either.

:phone:
 

V3ctorMan

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
2,261
Location
Sierra Vista AZ
side note:

glad to see Yoshi players coming out of nowhere, it's about time, you all left me waiting forever... :( I'm sure Moo, Leffen, MT, and others enjoy this too
 

Aeromund

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 14, 2011
Messages
19
V, you remember me I hope. It may seem rash of me to say this, but I apologize for keeping you as well. The way I look at it is that the Yoshi age is finally upon us--I came to this conclusion about two months ago--and it's anyone's game.

Yoshi, from what I've seen, is the last hyper-undeveloped character in Melee... So, so much untapped potential.
I can already tell you all that it will be Yoshi's shield game that will push his game to unforeseen heights.

...and I'm going to try and help with that.
 

leffen

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
2,032
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
laughing my *** off @ Pi. hahaha, nice job not spreading the mysterious technique that everyone who asked would know about.



also: AJP anton is so lazy, taking ages to upload vids (and so is the guy who recorded the other tourney Q_Q)
 

Blistering Speed

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
2,709
Location
Dot Dot Dash Dot
I can already tell you all that it will be Yoshi's shield game that will push his game to unforeseen heights.
Agreed, but I'd expand the statement to being his defensive game in general. If you actually have a look objectively at his options, they're pretty outstanding. We're talking about a character who can activate super armor frames at will whenever he wants in the air and INVINCIBILITY THAT HE CAN LAGLESSY ATTACK FROM on the ground (omfgwtf). I cannot begin to describe how ridiculous that is in a game like Melee. The issue is that implementing these qualities (along with most of Yoshi's high end metagame stuff) requires you to be, when it comes down to it, really good at this game. Unfortunately, there's a dearth of this kind of caliber of player when they can just choose a better and easier character.

Also Yoshi's shield game on platforms is goddamn invulnerable. Like, with a little observation, you simply don't get hit. His ground shielding...this is where we need development, although I have some ideas.

For the record, I realise guys like Leffen, MT, Nogz and Vman already know this ****, I'm just putting some thoughts down.
 

Nogzor'z

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
290
Location
Flagstaff, AZ
^hey the more thoughts the better.
This is the general yoshi discussion after all. Things like that are what we want/need.
 

Z'zgashi

Smash Legend
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
17,322
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WeJo, Utah
NNID
ZzgashiZzShy
3DS FC
1521-3678-2980
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLu5972oPZc&feature=related
This is how I shield drop, and I've been doing it for so damn long lol. I'm pretty sure that there is no other way to shield drop easier than this and if there is, its not needed. I'm honestly just sure you don't know **** about that vid and think you are discovering something new when its almost 4 years old... lol!
Fun fact, did you know that exists in Brawl as well, but you dont need to dash before it?

ANYWAY, hi, I play Yoshi in melee and Im really bad so Im trying to get better.:p
 

Aeromund

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 14, 2011
Messages
19
Also Yoshi's shield game on platforms is goddamn invulnerable. Like, with a little observation, you simply don't get hit.
An accurate platform camping Yoshi should never get stunned. The only noteworthy vulnerability Yoshi has while lubing up his plats is the time it takes for him to land and actually enter his shield before the opponent lands their approach. And even then...

platform cancel > shield > shield-drop > DJC [aerial]

--just as one example--covers this problem. The variety of options Yoshi has that can switch him between offense and defense as quick as they do are astounding!

His ground shielding...this is where we need development, although I have some ideas.
With parrying and other less life-threatening options at his disposal, there should be no point that Yoshi should shield on the main platform. Ever. Light shield is really the only guaranteed method of escape and even this relies heavily on the opponent's move choice.



EDIT: Hell, if done correctly you can even platform cancel a second time after the shield drop if the situation ever arises.
 

Aeromund

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 14, 2011
Messages
19
[ramble]

Another thing I've noticed lately is that Yoshi's best position, despite all of what I said above, is on the ground... At least in the earlier stages of character development. Platform camping and other platform options are, sadly, reserved for those players that have an extremely acute sense of spacing and make very few technical errors (again, using my example from earlier, an inappropriate DJC when one was wishing to platform cancel might will be capitalized upon).

With this in mind, I feel the use of platforms needs to increase in unison with the player's overall experience with the character/matchups. Too much use of them is risky, but if you don't take advantage of them every now and then you'll never learn the openings they can bait out, either. Also, parrying is never guaranteed on a platform, seeing as Yoshi's lower body would be exposed.

I think that, until the player knows their options in and out, shouldn't rely too heavily on platforms to get the job done outside the realm of juggling and tech reads. A grounded lightshield, parry, backwards WD, whatever on an approaching opponent is a lot less stressful than it would be if you coaxed your enemy onto the higher areas.

TL;DR Beginners, stick to the ground more often instead of showing off your fancy platform game. Until you gain a better understanding of baiting and where your openings truly are, getting back to the ground is priority number one.



This is just something I've been struggling to find the best answer to lately. If anyone has any elements to add that I missed or anything else related to the above, feel free to enlighten the pupil. ^-^
 

Blistering Speed

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
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Location
Dot Dot Dash Dot
Good posts Aero, but...
With parrying and other less life-threatening options at his disposal, there should be no point that Yoshi should shield on the main platform. Ever. Light shield is really the only guaranteed method of escape and even this relies heavily on the opponent's move choice.
...I think this is becoming bogged down in theory. Ideally, this would be the case, but you cannot expect consistently exceptional spacing and parrying on the ground, it's too demanding and unrealistic. Shielding will be necessary at points. That's where light shield comes in. Any reasonable hit and because of loltastic yoshi mechanics you're either sent to the edge (where Yoshi's options are awesome) or you're sent far enough away that you have the space to just drop it. Situation's reset to neutral.

Of course, you could just roll around a lot like a *****.
except Brawl isn't as good as Melee <3
gtfo we all know you main diddy kong hur der derp.
 
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