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Q&A Ask about Pikachu! Hosted by Axe and N64! feat. dkuo!

AXE 09

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 3, 2006
Messages
3,825
Location
Avondale, AZ
Dynamism, i've never heard of that edgecancel before, that sounds tight! i have a feeling that i can't do it. i can't do my angles very well outside of the first 8 (up, down, left, right, and all the diagonals).

which makes me think... i think that everyone should try their bests to come up with up-b edge cancels and try to use it in their games

i came up with a few, and some of them are pretty useful in tight situations. for instance... some that i made up:

on battlefield, standing slightly to either side on the bottom of the stage, standing on top of the line that separates the dark colored purple from the light colored purple: up-b upwards, then either left or right depending on what side of the stage you're on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ4tJ_RtcII ---> 1:40

on dreamland, if you drop a certain amount from the edge, then up-b strait up, then horizontally towards, the stage, you can edgecancel on the side platform

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm78AYRDvDM ---> 0:41

on dreamland, if you're teetering on the inside of one of the side platforms, jump strait upwards and up-b once horizontally towards the inside of the stage. you'll edgecancel on the other side of the top platform

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGTWI2f6AIE ---> 6:31

On yoshi's story, i can't really describe the position you have to be in, and i can't do it well enough to try it out in real matches yet, but when you're close to the middle of the stage but a little bit to one side, you can up-b diagonally upwards, then horizontally the other direction and edge cancel on the top platform

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si9bBYUapDQ ---> 1:25

On Pokemon stadium, when you're grabbing the edge, if you just do a ledge hop (just press X or Y while you're grabbing the edge), and hold diagonally up and away from the stage, then up-b horizontally towards the stage at the right time, you'll edge cancel off the side platform. unfortunately i couldn't find any videos in which i performed this one (which kinda suprises me because i do it quite a bit now, but then again this one is probably the most recent one that i found out), but it's not that hard to pull off so you guys can try for yourselves =)

but seriously, all i did was just mess around in training mode. all i really had to do was just look at the stage, and try to think about all the posibilities that might be able to work. i'm sure that all of you could come up with something similar that can actually be useful in matches, just try to think of something, or just look at the stages and try something that you think might work. i haven't really tried anything on counterpick stages, so maybe there's some other stuff there. i also haven't come up with anything on FoD yet, so i challenge you all to try to find new up-b edge cancel positions that could work out =)
 

N64

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 18, 2004
Messages
2,158
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Stalking Skler
I dunno, marth's a half step slower than Sheik at everything and so that makes me feel much much more comfortable getting in on him. I also feel like he has a much much harder time killing me, since Sheik can reliably combo into kill moves all the time, whereas Marth just gets you to a certain % and starts throwing out fsmashes/utilts hoping to kill you (and also tries to just get you off stage and then punish your recovery with these moves). *shurgs*, we'll just bring wavebirds to the next tourney we're both at and I'll fight Marf's for you and you can fight Sheiks for me :p.
I still don't know how to deal with marth shdfair, and the "i'm going to stand here and just jab/ftilt/utilt/shfair as soon as you approach. Oh you want to jolt? Sword > jolt. Approach me."

The marths I play stopped chasing me off the edge too, and started grabbing more often. I can't approach with shield much, and if I'm off the edge they just stay at that range where i can get to the edge and then it feels like 1 have 0 safe options for getting back on to the stage.
 

Mogwai

Smash Gizmo
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
I still don't know how to deal with marth shdfair, and the "i'm going to stand here and just jab/ftilt/utilt/shfair as soon as you approach. Oh you want to jolt? Sword > jolt. Approach me."

The marths I play stopped chasing me off the edge too, and started grabbing more often. I can't approach with shield much, and if I'm off the edge they just stay at that range where i can get to the edge and then it feels like 1 have 0 safe options for getting back on to the stage.
the trick is that they can't both grab and shfair your approach, so you just need to mix up approaching with shield -> grab and nairing through them. I mean, approaching Marth is still a *****, but I think it's easier and less scary than approaching Sheik.
 

N64

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 18, 2004
Messages
2,158
Location
Stalking Skler
To me it always seems scarier approaching marth heh. I guess it's mostly the range thing, I feel there's more distance to cover before i'm actually in range to do anything to him. I can't really projectile him, it's extremely easy to sword jolts. Sheik doesn't have as fool proof of an option against jolt. And even if i have to get close to both, I can dance around outside either's range and bait responses. Sheik responds and I can either rush in and grab, shnair, or space fsmash and punish. Marth responds and I can get in but still have a guessing game to do. If i shnair he can fair again before landing (if in air) or cc->option (if on the ground), if i go in for grab/sheildgrab he can still potentially grab me (depending). If i go with anything else, i'll likely get shieldgrabbed.

Sheik definately punishes harder most of the time though.

I see it as higher risk vs. sheik, but more chance of individual success, lower risk vs. marth but lower success rate as well.
 

indigestible_wad

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
1,072
Location
Scappoose, Oregon
I probably bet someone's already looked into this, but I remember seeing a post here a while back about not using jump cancelled grab as opposed to running grab. I dinkered around with both of them using the lines on pokemon stadium as reference points, and jc grab goes virtually just as far as running grab because it slides. I don't know to the exact pixel, but from what I could tell, they both successfully grabbed an opponent on the edge by pressing z at the point where the stage goes from green to grey and that was approximately where they stopped working. I'm not sure which one has more range, but they both went the same distance.
 

N64

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 18, 2004
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2,158
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Stalking Skler
but he looks so silly after missing a running grab!

it makes me smile. Until i get hit. Every single time. Because it's ****ing terrible.
 

tdk_Samurai

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
774
Location
Springfield, IL
the reason JC grabs are so much better is if you miss, a JC grab has a few frames where your vulnerable, but a non JC grab has alot. Like if you just dash grab, and miss you roll for like a whole second, and alot can happen in one second

side note, axe and I have points in the same circuit http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=263023 yay pikas :025:

but he is tied for first, and I'm tied for last with the other people who just made it out of pools, but there are 6 people in last leading me to think the TX tourney didn't have a pool cut off and had 14 people
 

Rappster

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 9, 2008
Messages
569
Location
Torrance, CA
eh, tbh, I think Pikachu has considerably more viability than the rest of his tier. He's on the very low end of the mid tier IMO, but I think his spacey, CF, and Peach game makes him good enough in the current metagame. (not entirely sure about the peach matchup, but I seem to recall Cort having assloads of trouble with Chu's pikachu and other than that, I have nothing to go on with that matchup at a high level).

I really think it's

Top Tier: Falco/Fox/Jiggs/Sheik
Jawesome Tier: Marth/Peach/CF
Pri Goot Tier: ICs/Ganon/Doc/Samus
Mid Tier: Mario/Luigi/DK/Pikachu
Legend of Zelda ft. Roy Tier: Link/Y. Link/Roy/Zelda
Stupid Characters Who Look Cool Sometimes Tier: G&W/Mewtwo/Yoshi
Bottom Tier: Pichu/Bowser/Ness/Kirby
why ness so low, mewtwo so high?
also, why dk&roy so high
 

indigestible_wad

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
1,072
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Scappoose, Oregon
I should have said that I thought jc grabs are better, they just have the same range.

As a side note, how do you superwavedash? I've never really tried to figure that one out.
 

Mogwai

Smash Gizmo
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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
why ness so low, mewtwo so high?
also, why dk&roy so high
below mid tier I'm less sure of my placings, but they're also much less relevant, so I don't care as much. I'll try to justify.

Ness has sucky everything. his fair is the only move he has worth talking about in the neutral position (besides maybe utilt), and it only pseudo combos into anything. and it only does like 4% most of the time. If he had grab range worth talking about or a projectile worth talking about or a recovery worth talking about, he'd be considerably higher, but I see him as a very very one dimensional character, who's one dimension isn't even that good.

Mewtwo has a lot of tricks and while most of them are pretty meh on their own, the fact that he has a lot of variance in what he can do differentiates him from the bottom tier. He has a decent movement game with his wavedashes and DJCs and a decent grab range with a bunch of good throws. His body box and weight are huge limiting factors, but at least he has solid movement and a couple respectable go-to moves in the neutral position (grab and dtilt, + a semi useful projectile in the form of shadowball).

For DK, I guess I just suggest watching Bum and checking his tourney placings. No one has accomplished what he has with a character lower on the tier list and it says a lot about DK. He's a pretty 2-note character with grab and bair, but he still has some respectable defensive options with giant punch, ftilt, uair and up B, and his combo game is surprisingly brutal when it gets going. I can see Pikachu being higher than DK because of the existence of Axe, but I think DK's slightly better on the whole as Axe still really needs to carry Falco for some stuff while Bum did it all with DK. (I know, I know, living in the past, w/e, I don't see any newer **** with anyone below him that'll convince me otherwise (again, other than maybe Axe) and PKM and RockCrock still have some scary *** DKs)

Roy is a ****ing terrible version of Marth, but he's still a version of Marth. He has a good dash dance and grab game and does much better against the top tiers than the lower tiers. His fsmash is clunky, but it's hitable(unlike say Bowser's) and kills absurdly early. Dtilt is legit and his aerials combo surprisingly well in capable hands. He's not good by a long shot, but watching Neo/Sethlon/Ripple/Cactuar/HBK play Roy convinces me that he's a solid step above the Yoshi/Mewtwo/G&W tier. I can see Zelda being higher but for the fact that she's so **** slow that if someone decides to camp and play keep away, she has a really really hard time doing anything about it (and her grab sucks).
 

Mogwai

Smash Gizmo
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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
Doc Mario and Luigi are all really hard IMO. You have to play really patiently and try to keep them a tail's length away and just go for gimpage, since it's pretty much all you have on any of them. I use a lot of dilt/upwards angled ftilt vs. them when I have to face them and then just try to use uair to space them out the rest of the time.
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,413
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College Park, MD
If the Mario bros. use a lot of CC dsmash to beat out your nair, just start approaching with empty SH -> shield and wavedash oos to grab or usmash if you're fast enough (though you need good tech for that).
 

Dynamism?

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
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BC, Canaaaanada
Doc is a pain. >_>

Been playing one regularly for a while, it's tough, but doable. You can't really 'approach' when he's staying grounded. Basically have to make him move and out-move him. :\
 

DJ Nintendo

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Messages
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Bronx, NY
I short hop nair and full hop fast fall nair on them lol. Sometimes I don't even bait them lol. I make sure I land behind them, especially if they shield. I just have a really weird, effective way of fighting them, as well as other characters. Thats about it lol.
 

DJ Nintendo

Smash Champion
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Nov 4, 2005
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2,609
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Bronx, NY
Kind of like the way Fox can overwhelm them with Nairs. Just has no shine, it still works the same way. :)
Exactly my friend :) Thats why I've always said and mad other people have said it too. Pikachu is the low tier version of Fox, except he's cuter ;)
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned via Warnings
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May 14, 2008
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Indianapolis
Well if he has red socks he is really cute I like fox because of all the unneeded tech skill and speed. Hmm maybe I should mildly spam nair
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned via Warnings
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I disargee the ice climbers are the cutest in the game till they start touching on you.

Hey as pichu i figured out how to go diaganolly twice press upper left/right B and then mash again the same way and you will jump again that way, I know it works as pichu so how maybe you guys can get a little more tech skill and max out your recovery
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned via Warnings
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LOL oichu is 2nd cutest pokemon I think puff is cuter. Maybe becuase I play as him all day but I never remember thinking OMG he is so D*** cute I did go OMG pichu is in this game dduuuuuuuudddddddddeeeeeeee this game is way to good. I still see the game with new eyes and old eyes
 

Dynamism?

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
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2,136
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BC, Canaaaanada
I'm so confused....



K what do peeps think about Samus?

I think it can be hard sometimes to get that initial hit (like the right one that sets something up rather than chipping away at them even though that seems to happen anyway)

Thoughts?
 

tdk_Samurai

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
774
Location
Springfield, IL
I don't have alot of samus matchup experience, but my thoughts

its on of pika's better matchups among characters you will actually see in tourney. Samus is pretty much going to try and cc everything you do into a down smash or something, so I like to aim may nairs/fairs/etc super far when approaching.

ftilt is pretty solid against her up b, idk if its your best choice, but from the little experience I have, I learned that.

man, I wish I could help you out more :-/
 

D. Disciple

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Messages
4,202
Location
Cottage Grove, Minnesota
your dair stops her missiles, your usmash stops a fully charged plasma shot. You're fast enough to do nair-dsmash if they crouch cancel your nair.

Pressure the **** out of her, spam jolt and follow up with it. Like TDK and Mogwai said, use your ftilt and fsmash to pop her away. Don't fear the nair, if she pulls it out, it's an usmash for us especially out of shield. Favorite thing to do if they don't di correctly especially on BF and YS is uair-uair-thunder. Kills her everytime cause she hits the cloud.

Also if you are worried about crouch cancel dsmash or dtilt, just pop her up with uair, or space your nair to be behind her so that she whiffs with the front part of the dsmash, then run away to avoid the 2nd hit.
 
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