Ask a Qusestion. Get an Answer.

[Teran]

I haven't used downB offensively since like 2008.

Well actually no I guess I like to spam it on PS1 but you get what I'm sayin'

Weird huh?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Full range is 6 frames actually, which makes shielddrop > downB a whopping 13 frames to punish + pretty much range about as far as dedede's ftilt. With it you can punish a lot more than normal, especially when combined with shielddrop > jab (9 frames)

 

[Choice]

shine is so tight honestly. especially now that it links into bdacus.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Is that really viable though? Because I never see anyone actually do it.

It's not unwinnable, but it's dayamn near it if the Pikachu knows his chain grabs.

It's just really hard to space him since he's so small / avoids lasers easily and he's quick so he gets in on you. Even though his grab range isn't spectacular, he has plenty of ways of getting the grab off, and once he does, you're going to be at ~110% by the time he's done.

It would probably be even if Pika didn't have the CG on Falco... but he does, so that's that

Our CG isn't really a big deal for Pika since he will never die from the spike because his recovery is so good. Even if we get good reads and rack him to ~80%, that's still quite far from kill % on him, and he only needs one grab for us to be in kill %. From there, he can just duck under lasers / play gay until he gets the kill, then it's rinse-repeat as he just waits for another grab.

So again, it's not unwinnable, but it's definitely our worst matchup. I agree with our current listing of it at 65:35 Pika's favor.


Luckily, for reasons unknown, almost no one plays Pikachu and a lot of people don't realize that he's one of the best characters in the game.

 

[Choice]

pika's cg is what makes it his favor. like not even landing it but the threat of it.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

pika's cg is what makes it his favor. like not even landing it but the threat of it.

Yep, just like the Ice Climbers. The threat of the Chain Grab makes the rest of their moveset much more viable than it might be otherwise.

 

[Choice]

ice climbers are way more gimmick than pikachu though.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

ice climbers are way more gimmick than pikachu though.

Probably true, but they also have a much greater threat to play with, haha. Pika can stand on his own without the CG for sure though. I still think the IC's are very solid though, personally.

 

[Bloodcross]

At least vs Ice Climbers we pretty much have the guaranteed win if Falco has the percent lead VS Solo Popo. Popo can't beat Jab and we don't have to kill him.

VS Pikachu there's no guaranteed win and we actually have to try vs them.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

He can suicide.

 

[Bloodcross]

He can suicide.

He won't suicide when I'm screaming "I ALREADY WON, YOU CANT BEAT ME!"

The player will get mad and be forced to approach without thinking. Plus I can throw out Nairs and Grabs like I'm pretending I'm trying to kill him.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

What if you're playing an emo climbers player?

 

[Choice]

ic's match up is fun cuz of all the gimps though. why time em out?

 

[Bloodcross]

What if you're playing an emo climbers player?

Well, in that case... Emo Climbers will suicide at 50%... so it's all good anyway

ic's match up is fun cuz of all the gimps though. why time em out?

Because I am an *******

 

[Attila_]

is pika worse than the climbers? i generally platform camp to 50%, then play offensively from there. he has a hard time beating jab, and his recovery is pretty easily taken advantage of. ice climbers on the other hand, can always cg you while nana is alive, and platform camping is harder because their uair is the ****.

 

[DEHF]

is pika worse than the climbers? i generally platform camp to 50%, then play offensively from there. he has a hard time beating jab, and his recovery is pretty easily taken advantage of. ice climbers on the other hand, can always cg you while nana is alive, and platform camping is harder because their uair is the ****.

Some Pikachu players will just wait for the chain grab, which is pretty much all they need.

If you shield ICs uair from below the platform you can drop shield d smash or u smash oos.

 

[DEHF]

double post XD

 

[gunterrsmash01]

I dont really think Pika is worse than ICs. Falco can CG pika, their CG doesn't kill us, and Pika has a kind of hard time killing, especially if you can reflect their thunder and DI out of their dsmash. Pika can only CG at certain percents as well, ICs can do it anytime. I didn't go indepth but those things kinda make Pika easier than ICs for me.

 

[SSSnake]

Some Pikachu players will just wait for the chain grab, which is pretty much all they need.

If you shield ICs uair from below the platform you can drop shield d smash or u smash oos.

but we also have the cg :D... altough its not as good as pikas, we can cg, shine bdacus or even dacus... shine is good is all im really trying to say.

 

[Bloodcross]

but we also have the cg :D... altough its not as good as pikas, we can cg, shine bdacus or even dacus... shine is good is all im really trying to say.

Stop posting

 

[swordsaint]

I agree with Ozz and Bloodcross.

 

[Choice]

pika's harder than ic's since ic's are really easy to gimp but pikachu isnt (at least to my knowledge). also, if you're cging the player controlled climber you can get the entire cg and end it with the cpu climber being sent stage off with really bad DI.

ic's aint all that.

 

[swordsaint]

all i ever hear about the ics match up is that we can chain grab them too. sure. but most of the time the ice climbers know how to attack with nana to stop our cg. even if our dthrow lasers stop nana when she's up really close. when she's coming back its easy for her to just use a smash attack or something to beat lasers and knock falco out the cg

if we wait for nana to laser her with dthrow, the popo's probably broken free.

and ic's aren't THAT easy to gimp...not with falco. we can bair their up b for sure, but any good ic's that don't want gimped know when to use side to recover better.

we have nothing safe and on shield and a single grab equals death

pika we can safely cg when we get a grab, edge guard FAIRLY well, no gimps, but bair is **** good. jab is amazing on pika. and he cant do the chain grab at any percent. so as long as we NEVER stop platform camping until the right percent, despite the fact pika is waiting. it's far more winnable than ic's I believe. We outcamp pika too, far more easily than ics. Easily the biggest difference is that pika's cg if it lands, won't kill us. We have the first 21% to make a difference in the game. and then platform camp to whatever percent pika can no longer dthrow cg us.

Marth's cg>spike is far more dangerous and his matchup is still even. You know why? We can platform camp it. Same for Pika yo.

 

[Denzi]

Marth's CG Spike is also much easier to avoid. And Pika's CG is almost the same thing, putting you 1 or 2 hits away from death.

IC's aren't that easy to gimp, but they are much easier to gimp than Pikachu, and I think that was the point. And then there's the fact that Pika is much more viable than the IC's disregarding the CG. So he's much more of a threat than them even when he doesn't get the grab.

And finally, Pika has way more KO moves than the IC's do. He has Usmash, Utilt -> Thunder, Fsmash, Nair OoS, and Dsmash (if you suck at SDI). IC's have Uair (which should be stale), Bair (easy to see coming), and slower/predictable smashes.

All that being said, I still don't think the Pika matchup is quite as hard as people are making it out to be.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

how is falco on wifi? i dont like mk at all on wifi so its between falco or snake. i dont plan on taking wifi any kind of serious, just for fun.

 

[Tommy_G]

Marth's CG Spike is also much easier to avoid. And Pika's CG is almost the same thing, putting you 1 or 2 hits away from death.

IC's aren't that easy to gimp, but they are much easier to gimp than Pikachu, and I think that was the point. And then there's the fact that Pika is much more viable than the IC's disregarding the CG. So he's much more of a threat than them even when he doesn't get the grab.

And finally, Pika has way more KO moves than the IC's do. He has Usmash, Utilt -> Thunder, Fsmash, Nair OoS, and Dsmash (if you suck at SDI). IC's have Uair (which should be stale), Bair (easy to see coming), and slower/predictable smashes.

All that being said, I still don't think the Pika matchup is quite as hard as people are making it out to be.

Someone needs to play ESAM or any Pikachu at all that knows how to buffer the CG.

 

[DEHF]

how is falco on wifi? i dont like mk at all on wifi so its between falco or snake. i dont plan on taking wifi any kind of serious, just for fun.

Pick Snake >_>

ICs are much more easier to gimp than Pika, If the ICs do their up b together you can spike Popo out of it. Falco's reflector can hit the ICs out of their side b easily, it can sometimes make one of the ICs go into their falling animation after using up b.

 

[SSSnake]

how is falco on wifi? i dont like mk at all on wifi so its between falco or snake. i dont plan on taking wifi any kind of serious, just for fun.

snake. not only is he considered to be one of the best, but he is a heavy character, so hes an excellent party crasher if you plan on doing wifi a lot.

 

[Attila_]

ics may not have good kill moves, but i think the fact that there is two of them makes up for it. desynched kills are the way to go. oh, and dtilt near the edge kills falco pretty much always lol

 

[exdia_16]

I never understand a thing you say.

do you really not understand if not i will be a little more clear.

 

[swordsaint]

solo popo chains grab on falco to dtilt is quite gay

tommy > implying the cg for pika is hard

denzi > it doesn't matter that ice climbers have less kill moves when their smashes are guaranteed to hit when they have a grab. And they get grabs on falco a little more because falco's just weird against ice climbers.

DEHF > that's assuming they do an unsafe up b. as for side b, I didn't know that, but it doesn't change much at all, especially if it's a sometimes thing. Considering how bad how reflector is as a attack move, it's usually better to just outprioritise side b with a smash or something.

 

[DEHF]

What do you mean by an unsafe up b? You can do that to them regardless of them doing a tether or non-tether. Popo doesn't have invincibility or a hitbox on his up b, only Nana does.

You could also use laser if you really don't want to use reflector for the side b, it'll almost always make one of them fall.

Reflector is an amazing move

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I think that if Nana uses upsmash in de CG and you hold down you will fall to the ground.

 

[Attila_]

only at really low percents.

 

[FD96]

Does anyone know if Falco is good in doubles, and if who he is best with?

 

[phi1ny3]

He's probably second worst doubles for his tier (Ice climbers are by far the worse loooool), but he's still really good and solid.

MK is probably the best, as he can fulfill many of the complimentary parts you will usually lack in, and can get you out of tight spots in offstage play/tornado/dumb stuff.

Wario, Diddy, and G&W are also decent too imo.

I wouldn't use Snake/Marth/DDD in a team though, kinda meh.

Not really a falco main, so I can't entirely tell you the depthful stuff as to what can be exploited in a team combination.

 

[swordsaint]

What do you mean by an unsafe up b? You can do that to them regardless of them doing a tether or non-tether. Popo doesn't have invincibility or a hitbox on his up b, only Nana does.

You could also use laser if you really don't want to use reflector for the side b, it'll almost always make one of them fall.

Reflector is an amazing move

An unsafe up b would be using it when it's not safe...In other words in a situation where falco will easily intercept.

It doesn't really matter if they just 'fall'. They're going to (or should) land on the stage regardless. A bit more percent isn't a kill, so it's really just your slightly above average edgeguard. Lasers and reflectors aren't huge damage rackers. You're usage of the word, 'almost always' is the same as saying 'not all the time'. Meaning it can be a bit of luck to it. Do we really want to rely on that? Is this slightly luck based option really something that is used to sway the matchup slightly?

Reflector isn't amazing. High lag and very little damage. don't kid yourself </3

In any case, we aren't going to be getting kills from our edgeguard options on Ice Climbers unless they're at say 130+ percent for an Fsmash or something. If they're dying below that it's because they've chosen the wrong recovery method.

 

[phi1ny3]

I think he likes reflector on the part that it's pretty non-clankable (iirc transcendent actually) with some good range, which can be useful in edgeguarding sometimes, particularly against ICs where if you time your stuff right you can mess up both squall and Belay pretty badly (often takes time for ICs to resych, so that their recovery doesn't get messed up). On top of that, one of Reflector's biggest counters is gone (shield) when offstage. It does sound like a double edged sword though in the sense that it seems only useful as a borderline unorthodox mixup/mindgame more than a reliable tool, and falco's characteristics often limit his edgeguarding to a hard extent (fall speed, reliance on phantasm/second jump, etc.)

 

[Denzi]

Yeah, Shine has transcendent priority. And actually you'd be surprised how reliable it can be in terms of edgeguarding, even vs characters like Marth.

 

[swordsaint]

against someone like marth I'd agree it works as an edgeguard (he's floaty and has that dumb fair to cover his recovery with), but against ice climbers not so much. you have better options for them. Their recovery is average at best like it's been said before, we can do better than a reflector.