Adjusting the Damage Ratio to 1.1 for Balance

[Chuee]

DOc, I'm sorry but you've been wrong on almost every account, MK does not get better just because he hits harder. EVERYONE DOES and we have to think about the whole picture. from everyone's testing, it looks like he'll be worse thanks to nado being SDIable.

He gimps better and doesn't have to worry about Falco & Pika's CGs anymore.

 

[Sharky]

I thought it was determined that hitstun has NOT increased?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

The increased KB leads to more low KB tumble, thus creating a greater frame advantage on certain moves.

 

[Ripple]

He gimps better and doesn't have to worry about Falco & Pika's CGs anymore.

true but that just means he's better in those match ups. who knows, fox might be a counter

 

[•Col•]

but it isn't the other way around, people have put two years of work into the status-quo, and banning mk would have a much better effect. I'm sorry but I can't possibly accept a version of a game where something as basic as jab combos doesn't work for half the cast.

Half the jab combos in 1.0 dont work anyway, lol. I've heard that 1.1 actually fixes some of them, like Snake's and Samus'...

You can clearly see on my match with Zant that MK doesn't always relie on his tornado and this is gonna basically make is even harder to combo and will get rid of some special techniques of a lot of characters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djVVODsI7_g

Well of course a Metaknight isnt going to be using much Tornado against LUCARIO on WIFI. ._.

He gimps better and doesn't have to worry about Falco & Pika's CGs anymore.

I was thinking about this last night... Even though 1.1 makes gimping better... This is probably actually worse for Metaknight, lol. I mean... Think about it... In 1.0 if he hits you while you're trying to recover... You're most likely dead anyway, unless you're a character with multiple jumps. The change to 1.1 isnt going to be making him score anymore gimp ko's than he already does in 1.0, lol.

So yeah, basically.... Everyone else's gimping game will improve.... While MK's is pretty much already maxed out. XD You can't get much better than he already is in 1.0...

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

^^^ with a better d-air, I don't think being off the stage would be a bigger problem. You could also easily set your opponent if they are on the edge (as it still has transcendent priority and is a great edge move) and then just d-air again to finish someone off.

Think of Fox's shine from melee but in the air.

Also, does the 1.1 make diddy's bananas more comboable and if I remember right, when I checked, 1.1 also change Falco's silent laser game, allowing it to combo better into f-smashes and easy kills.

Whatever the damage ratio is adjusted to, people will find another way to abuse it. The issue with brawl's balance is the stage list.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I thought it was determined that hitstun has NOT increased?

Hitstun definitely increases a little, see ZSS' jab.

 

[_Keno_]

I support this idea.

 

[Doc King]

Also this would give Diddy a rise cause his only major weakness is his power. And Diddy is like 3rd place on the Tier list and wins many tournies.

 

[comboking]

Any characters hurt by this change. Ike comes to my mind.

 

[EPsilon933]

Also this would give Diddy a rise cause his only major weakness is his power. And Diddy is like 3rd place on the Tier list and wins many tournies.

From what I've played vs Diddy, he feels weaker. Sure he can kill better, but can he combo into his improved kill moves as well as others can?

Any characters hurt by this change. Ike comes to my mind.

I think Ike gets buffed. He has so much kill power, pretty much every move is a kill move. He's sort of a bit polarized though. When he has the momentum he can hurt you a lot by just sending you closer to off stage and in the air all the time. But when you're not getting hit by Ike and you play the spacing game well, you'll be doing the same to him, but to a lesser extent.

Also, Ice Climbers are so seperatable now. Lucario gets a bit nerfed since he won't live as long and won't get as much aura.

 

[HeroMystic]

If Ike can still jab cancel well, then 1.1 is a buff. If not, then it's a toss up. A lot of damage come from his jab cancels.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Ok so I've been screwing around with Sonic in 1.1 a few times. I also did a little bit of ICs as well. Well here is my first impression.

As I said before Sonic can actually kill now. Also his damage racking abilities hasn't changed as much. His gimping game is even more dangerous now, in fact Sonic will get alot more kills from offstage now due to the increased knockback of his aerials. Sonic can handle his match-ups more better now (Probably counters characters now). Anyway let's look at how his moves fare in this.

UAir: Gotten better. Kills at 130% (Needs more testing) or less depending how close they are to the top. Overall, it can kill more consistently.

Nair: It got a little better. It can be used as a kill move if they live past 140%. Good if you hit them offstage.

Fair: Probably the only aerial of his that suffers a bit due to people being able to SDI a bit easier in 1.1. However, it can kill now and is very dangerous offstage.

Bair: Gotten better and still his best aerial. kills at 90-100%.

Dair: better.

Usmash: Garbage, very easy to SDI. Otherwise all his other smashes kill much earlier than before.

Ftilt can kill now at 140-150%(Needs more testing on more characters, but it is comfirmed to kill now) Utilt kills better also.

Spin dash combos hasn't changed although it is harder to follow-up on lighter characters with his DownB spin dash (Spin dash to Bair still works) .

Homing attack needs more testing.

Other things that would need more confirmation is how his dthrow works now. Besides that his grab game is still the same.

Having said that Sonic in 1.1 is a bit more solid than his 1.0 self. He actually has kill options now, and his gimping potential is even more dangerous. His punish game is much stronger than ever. As far as match-ups is concerned, he will handle them better. I'm predicting MK and Sonic will probably be evenish now (Still gonna be in MK favor though). Sonic makes Lucario cry and he will be a huge nuisance to everyone else.


TL;DR So far, Sonic is turining out to be a beast in 1.1 and if it gets picked up, there's a good chance his placing will be much higher.

I'll talk about ICs shortly, gotta see a few things and also still looking at Sonic a bit more.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Any characters hurt by this change. Ike comes to my mind.

san posted earler and said he didnt have any problems in 1.1

 

[Ripple]

Also this would give Diddy a rise cause his only major weakness is his power. And Diddy is like 3rd place on the Tier list and wins many tournies.

diddy's bananas make the opponent trip farther and get up faster(?)

Any characters hurt by this change. Ike comes to my mind.

If Ike can still jab cancel well, then 1.1 is a buff. If not, then it's a toss up. A lot of damage come from his jab cancels.

ike can still jab cancel fine. but he's still probably lower mid tier

 

[Cherry64]

Every Char will be a bit stronger, Personally I think that it's impossible to say who will go up in the tier list because every character will change slightly.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

theres also individual character mus and other situational factors we cant account for either based on our knowledge alone

i'll prolly look into lucarios aura buffs here in abit

 

[Big O]

ok big o, try testing this out like someone who doesn't have AR. go to FD with DK and D3.

place D3 right next to DK and have DK ground pound.

after the first slap hits your shield, grab with D3.

when done right you should grab DK where he stands and will have not traded hits. (on 1.0 and 1.1)

NOW,

turn it up to 1.5 DR and do the same thing.

I personally could not get it ONCE without trading hits and was mashing A like crazy to grab him.

now turn it up to 2.0, you shouldn't be able to grab him at all

I tried out your own test and got different results from you, which is weird. In 1.0 the down B trades with the shield grab. In 1.1 the down B trades with the shield grab. In 2.0 the down B trades with the shield grab. In 0.5 the down B trades with the shield grab.

I suspect you used training mode to simulate 1.0 or staled the down B in vs. mode during your 1.0 trial run. If it is fresh, you trade with his shield grab. If it is stale you get grabbed before the second slap happens. It being fresh gives it barely enough extra damage (you don't see it but it does an extra .7% of damage) to get 1 more frame of shieldstun, so it being stale gives you different results. I was surprised that the fractional damage increase was the difference between 4 frames of shieldstun and 5 frames of shieldstun. Looking into it some more, I also noticed a few other moves having an extra frame of shieldstun in vs. mode. One more reason to not use training mode I guess lol.

Just to be clear, the only thing I used codes for was to count the frames of hitstun and shieldstun. Nothing else involved the usage of codes and everything I mentioned is easily done without codes. You don't need codes to look at how far people get pushed from blocking moves lol. I even tried them out with no codes on just in case they mess with the damage ratio settings somehow. There is no difference with shield mechanics in any damge ratio setting.

 

[Sharky]

Hitstun definitely increases a little, see ZSS' jab.

that's not extra hitstun, the hitstun is the same but it normally gets canceled really early by the opponent landing.

 

[Doc King]

I don't think that changing the damage ratio is gonna balance the game because this affects everybody in Brawl.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I LOVE this idea. Wolf becomes top tier because his bad matchups due to cg are extinct!!!!!!!

He already is 45-55 with Mk.

Highly approve.

 

[Ripple]

DATA.

alright BIg O, thanks. I trust you. but I wasn't using training mode actually. oh well

I don't think that changing the damage ratio is gonna balance the game because this affects everybody in Brawl.

try to explain your reasoning behind this.

I LOVE this idea. Wolf becomes top tier because his bad matchups due to cg are extinct!!!!!!!

He already is 45-55 with Mk.

Highly approve.

are you saying this just so you can do better against MK? hmmmmm????

 

[Cherry64]

are you saying this just so you can do better against MK? hmmmmm????

Aren't a lot of the peoples fears here of Meta Knight getting buffed? If wolf can at least go even with him then the meta discussion should be non existant.

Also Snake is going to get mad buffed from this IMO so he should be a counter for metaknight. Hard, single-hitting Snake going up against lightweight fast char, snakes have already countered the speed game, I think snake would be top and MK might be lower if this goes down. Maybe, Maybe, I want to see how this goes. Why haven't any BBR come in here lol?

 

[Seagull Joe]

alright BIg O, thanks. I trust you. but I wasn't using training mode actually. oh well

try to explain your reasoning behind this.

are you saying this just so you can do better against MK? hmmmmm????

No, I already do great vs Mk in 1.0. It's not Mk that matters. The matchup is already 45-55 in the 1.0 ratio and I usually beat most Mk's. I do not fear Mk. I just don't like 1.0's cg's that guarantee kills with like Pikachu, Falco, and Wario.

Pikachu vs Fox becomes a playable matchup.

Falco no longer can cg spike, which is very good to a lot of characters having fairer matchups vs him.

Wario's cg is gone.

It balances brawl without changing the physics.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I LOVE this idea. Wolf becomes top tier because his bad matchups due to cg are extinct!!!!!!!

He already is 45-55 with Mk.

Highly approve.

DDDs is still there tho seagull. I havent tested the ledge infinite and personally im not gonna bother

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWV4wFg23-8

heres what pikachus CG looks like on the space animals so watch closely. At 19% when i fthrow falco i stop his CG with jab and even prior to that on the second throw i hit him with jab 1 for 4 damage to pika.


@ lucario stuff,

testing lucario and fair seems to gimp better due to KB even at low %. I just killed a cpu lv9 jiggly puff with a fresh uthrow to uair on a 0% lucario and she died off the top at 110% Even lucarios jab game still looks pretty solid. Like jab>jab to grab seems to work at low % still, on light weights it might not work as well at lower %, so im trying jab 1 and grabbing and that seems to work fine. Of course all 3 jabs linked together still work well. AS kills sooner. His dair...like not gonna lie. It kills pretty early too. Even staled. His fthrow sends them out realllllly far too. And dthrow can be comboed into at low %

and yes im sorry i havent even used fsmash once to kill. But from what i can remember i can kill with a fresh fsmash at 0% when my opponent had like 26% damage. Let me keep testing this tho.

 

[Two-Ell]

@Cherry Aside from Pierce my guess would be complete disinterest. Has someone taken any of this discussion to the BBR chat Pierce mentioned? FL has several members and when I mentioned it in a tourney thread to see if anyone felt like testing it out in some friendlies every one of them ignored it(even the TO is a member lol) except for ES@M who had the usual reaction of 'This is stupid.' people get when they first read about this without playing.

 

[solecalibur]

Lol MK doesnt have a single match up in 1.0 that isn't 60/40
55/45 50/50 doesnt exist, your confusing people lower your level playing MK being "even" with you skill wise but your just that much better of a player

On a related note , I still see a lot of characters living , not as long but only like 10%-15% I dont see this as that gamebreaking other then the CGs which seem to be the #1 reason I view people are really pumping this up

Aside from Pierce my guess would be complete disinterest. Has someone taken any of this discussion to the BBR chat Pierce mentioned? FL has several members and when I mentioned it in a tourney thread to see if anyone felt like testing it out in some friendlies every one of them ignored it(even the TO is a member lol) except for ES@M who had the usual reaction of 'This is stupid.' people get when they first read about this without playing.

In short if your not posting here , you probly dont like the idea

 

[Seagull Joe]

DDDs is still there tho seagull. I havent tested the ledge infinite and personally im not gonna bother

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWV4wFg23-8

heres what pikachus CG looks like on the space animals so watch closely. At 19% when i fthrow falco i stop his CG with jab and even prior to that on the second throw i hit him with jab 1 for 4 damage to pika.

@ lucario stuff,

testing lucario and fair seems to gimp better due to KB even at low %. I just killed a cpu lv9 jiggly puff with a fresh uthrow to uair on a 0% lucario and she died off the top at 110% Even lucarios jab game still looks pretty solid. Like jab>jab to grab seems to work at low % still. AS kills sooner. His dair...like not gonna lie. It kills pretty early too. Even staled. His fthrow sends them out realllllly far too. And dthrow can be comboed into at low %

and yes im sorry i havent even used fsmash once to kill. But from what i can remember i can kill with a fresh fsmash at 0% when my opponent had like 26% damage. Let me keep testing this tho.

D3's cg doesn't kill from 0. Pika cg starts from 0 to death percentage. Falco can cg to spike kill.

And Wario cg goes from like 20-30 to a billion.

Lol MK doesnt have a single match up in 1.0 that isn't 60/40
55/45 50/50 doesnt exist, your confusing people lower your level playing MK being "even" with you skill wise but your just that much better of a player

On a related note , I still see a lot of characters living , not as long but only like 10%-15% I dont see this as that gamebreaking other then the CGs which seem to be the #1 reason I view people are really pumping this up

In short if your not posting here , you probly dont like the idea

Wrong. Wolf is 45-55 and 40-60 at worst with Mk.

This is from my perspective as someone who goes to tourneys and played so many metaknights of every type.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

true DDDs CG DOESNT KILL. However it still racks damage and puts you in a situation where wolf still doesnt wanna be--off stage. In 1.1 with 10% KB/hit stun you'll have to be just as careful.

Falco in 1.1 only gets a max of 2 throws thats it. I tried spiking out of it and it doesnt sweet spot for me. OR they fly too far away.

 

[Seagull Joe]

true DDDs CG DOESNT KILL. However it still racks damage and puts you in a situation where wolf still doesnt wanna be--off stage. In 1.1 with 10% KB/hit stun you'll have to be just as careful.

Falco in 1.1 only gets a max of 2 throws thats it. I tried spiking out of it and it doesnt sweet spot for me. OR they fly too far away.

True, but in every game the challenge is returning to the stage. That's the players necessity to outsmart their opponent to reposition themselves to have the advantage.

If Wolf Di's up from fthrow or just does nothing out of grab release then he should be able to return safely. Grab releases aren't changed I'm sure. Wolf can always shine D3 if he is above him.

 

[Two-Ell]

@Sole Well I already guessed that lol, but they are the BBR. They should be acknowledging public interest in this in some manner. Even if some or most of them don't like the idea people want to know their collective thoughts on this especially with most of them being high level tournament players.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

True, but in every game the challenge is returning to the stage. That's the players necessity to outsmart their opponent to reposition themselves to have the advantage.

If Wolf Di's up from fthrow or just does nothing out of grab release then he should be able to return safely. Grab releases aren't changed I'm sure. Wolf can always shine D3 if he is above him.

thats correct air release and ground releases havent

which means you can still air release side b/ other stuff on the rest of the cast, it should still work

i am curious to know how wolfs nair will work in this damage ratio...

 

[Cherry64]

@Cherry Aside from Pierce my guess would be complete disinterest. Has someone taken any of this discussion to the BBR chat Pierce mentioned? FL has several members and when I mentioned it in a tourney thread to see if anyone felt like testing it out in some friendlies every one of them ignored it(even the TO is a member lol) except for ES@M who had the usual reaction of 'This is stupid.' people get when they first read about this without playing.

You totally just ninja'd what I was going to say xD

@Sole Well I already guessed that lol, but they are the BBR. They should be acknowledging public interest in this in some manner. Even if some or most of them don't like the idea people want to know their collective thoughts on this especially with most of them being high level tournament players.

 

[Seagull Joe]

thats correct air release and ground releases havent

which means you can still air release side b/ other stuff on the rest of the cast, it should still work

i am curious to know how wolfs nair will work in this damage ratio...

Seeing as how hitstun is slightly raised and Wolf's nair has no knockback other then the first hit, I imagine it'll combo very easily lol.

 

[Ripple]

just tried out D3.

no infinite's except on DK and luigi. INCLUDING off stage infinites
also no small step on ganon anymoe

D-throw to d-tilt is still a combo however.

also, I might make a thread to explain all the differences that we have found so far for each character and what it changes globally. should I?

 

[Jonas]

Is any TO actually willing to implement this at his next (preferably big) tourney so we can see how well it works?

 

[Cherry64]

I doubt any would make this the standaard ruleset, However a side event would be sweet. Instead of low tier it could be this.

 

[solecalibur]

Wrong. Wolf is 45-55 and 40-60 at worst with Mk.

This is from my perspective as someone who goes to tourneys and played so many BAD metaknights of every type.

Your confusing your skill with bad players

@Sole Well I already guessed that lol, but they are the BBR. They should be acknowledging public interest in this in some manner. Even if some or most of them don't like the idea people want to know their collective thoughts on this especially with most of them being high level tournament players.

I do agree but there are two people that can make this into place , that is BBR and yourself hosting a 1.1 tounry

 

[Seagull Joe]

just tried out D3.

no infinite's except on DK and luigi. INCLUDING off stage infinites
also no small step on ganon anymoe

D-throw to d-tilt is still a combo however

Which doesn't kill till high percents in 1.0 so the new "high" percents in 1.1 would be when it kills. All of this is just relative.

Like the law of ideal gases: Pv=nRT. As temperature (Damage ratio) increases, so does Volume/Pressure (Knockback).

 

[Dark 3nergy]

just tried out D3.

no infinite's except on DK and luigi. INCLUDING off stage infinites
also no small step on ganon anymoe

D-throw to d-tilt is still a combo however.

also, I might make a thread to explain all the differences that we have found so far for each character and what it changes globally. should I?

if the mods dont mind go for it