Adjusting the Damage Ratio to 1.1 for Balance

[Flutter NiTE]

just tried out D3.

no infinite's except on DK and luigi. INCLUDING off stage infinites
also no small step on ganon anymoe

D-throw to d-tilt is still a combo however.

also, I might make a thread to explain all the differences that we have found so far for each character and what it changes globally. should I?

Yes!!!!!

10char

 

[Damix91]

I dont see why you feel this needs to be changed. It personally seems like a lot of testing and work just to get rid of some chaingrabs and possibly nerf metanight which isnt really a competitve reason. How is this new system any more competitve than the last? Snakes gonna be unstoppable with even more knockback and a stronger projectile game.

 

[Ripple]

I dont see why you feel this needs to be changed. It personally seems like a lot of testing and work just to get rid of some chaingrabs and possibly nerf metanight which isnt really a competitve reason. How is this new system any more competitve than the last? Snakes gonna be unstoppable with even more knockback and a stronger projectile game.

the goal wasn't to get rid of chaingrabs or nerf MK. the goal of the project is to see if there is character balance in this version. people want balance, and this is the closest we can get to balance without changing the game to dramatically

 

[Dark 3nergy]

and not relying to hacks to get that

 

[Meru.]

People definitely aren't changing 1.0 to 1.1 just because of MK, since 1.1 doesnt nerf MK at all.

 

[DeadPool]

People definitely aren't changing 1.0 to 1.1 just because of MK, since 1.1 doesnt nerf MK at all.

PLEASE test the snake vs mk mu and THEN come back and tell me the same thing you just said.

 

[Sharky]

yeah cause you can really guage a mu within two days...

 

[DeadPool]

yeah cause you can really guage a mu within two days...

well let me tell you that Renegade has definitely had this thread open for more than two days and that was the first mu i tested
MK gets ***** now
and maybe i did test it quickly because it doesnt take ME two years of so called work to test mu's

 

[Sharky]

oh my god you're right! those extra two days made all the difference!

 

[DeadPool]

sure did ***** =]

 

[Cherry64]

Them was some great arguments as to why not guys, Really insightful, It seems to me that you just plain up don't want to. I realize that this would be a huge change, Like Walk off stages wouldn't be so frowned upon because there don't seem to be huge Infinites within this rule-set.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I love how people are thoerycrafting the buffs and ignoring the cons they gained in each MU.

Oh Peach kills earlier, she also dies earlier.

Snake beats MK because he kills better, except he's still getting juggled and gimped like he did before and also dies earlier.

Guys, there is theorycraft and fact, if you really want to test this don't mix the two together.

 

[Cherry64]

Eh, I was trying to do that (Staying away from theory crafting), it's hard to do that when no one supports this though lol.

An online tournament with this sounds like the best idea thus far, to test balance issue's and such. Yeah online's terrible, It's really really terrible but hopefully we can get a decent amount of chars in it. I really don't want to host it, Life would get in the way.

 

[Zatchiel]

This idea seems pretty swell thought out.

The fact that it's easier to escape moves is opposed by the fact that killing is somewhat easier, but not by much.
It does mess with the competitiveness a bit by making people with exaggerated killing potential (like Snake) better suited for more matchups. Shield-Pressuring would also become even more massively broken for characters like Marth on BF.
It's one thing to balance increased KO potential with added weight or something like that, but easier SDI and escaping from moves that normally trap at 1.0 in trade for much easier kills isn't really necessary so much as fundamental to a few characters of the cast.
This isn't even taking into consideration the characters that have a hard time scoring KO moves, but are normally able to rack up damage to a great extent with their incredibly lasting and damage dealing moves.

 

[Turbo Ether]

One of the biggest gripes that I have with Brawl is the duration of the matches. The game just feels sluggish and drags on and on. It can be draining. It takes much longer to complete sets in Brawl than it does in most traditional fighting games. Even Melee runs faster, and in the standard Melee ruleset players are granted one more stock than in Brawl. That says a lot.

I find it compelling that switching to a 1.1 damage ratio would most likely remedy this flaw (imo). The concept of tournaments running faster is probably something that most people would find appealing.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Eh, I was trying to do that (Staying away from theory crafting), it's hard to do that when no one supports this though lol.

An online tournament with this sounds like the best idea thus far, to test balance issue's and such. Yeah online's terrible, It's really really terrible but hopefully we can get a decent amount of chars in it. I really don't want to host it, Life would get in the way.

This would be the first step, imo for people who want to support this.

@Turbo: In Melee people also die much much earlier than in Brawl. Plus the speed added into the game with wavedashing, L-canceling to remove lag, etc.

 

[Sovereign]

How about you guys dedicate a whole quarter(3 months) to testing this, by having any side events be 1.1 singles, just to see how well it would be accepted in the community.

I bet that MK won't be seen dominating 1st place as often as he does in 1.0, which is something I absolutely look forward to, since this way doesn't require us banning him, in order to create a balance in the metagame. This will also weed out those who really like and main MK vs. those who pursue the money.

 

[Turbo Ether]

@Turbo: In Melee people also die much much earlier than in Brawl. Plus the speed added into the game with wavedashing, L-canceling to remove lag, etc.

Exactly. Brawl lacks these mechanics that facilitate faster matches; maybe switching to 1.1 would make up the difference match duration somewhat, while potentially creating a more balanced game than standard Brawl.

 

[Cherry64]

I am finding that it does make the game faster paced, AND there seem to be combo's. short ones but unavoidable thus far, it's like brawl and melee combined

 

[Zatchiel]

Exactly. Brawl lacks these mechanics that facilitate faster matches; maybe switching to 1.1 would make up the difference match duration somewhat, while potentially creating a more balanced game than standard Brawl.

Quite descriptive this gentlemen is. The points he has are certainly valid by my standards; games would actually move faster if the players could KO easier and earlier. This would also make the more campier characters stand a bit more of a chance up close, mainly in spacing their opponent back out of range.
Characters like MK wouldn't have to be banned, and the game in general would become somewhat more controlled.
Chaingrab stalling and such not lasting as long = Less time wasted by opponents like D3 and Falco.
Yes, i personally agree that this disrupts the metagame to some quality, it is definitely something we should take into consideration on how it systematically renders most CGs, camping moves, and natural combos indefinite in gameplay. Their use becomes of less importance due to how slightly upping the damage ratio a tad can be disruptive to most metagames and character relevant strategies.

Edit: @Cherry, not really. The fastest pace Brawl has ever been played is the slowest recorded potential seen in Melee.

 

[Jonas]

Edit: @Cherry, not really. The fastest pace Brawl has ever been played is the slowest recorded potential seen in Melee.

What exactly do you mean?

 

[Cherry64]

Rave I meant as 1.1. it's faster than brawl but slower than melee. Anyways I think the tournament is a great idea, someone doo it.

 

[Zatchiel]

What exactly do you mean?

Fast Brawl = Slow in comparison to Melee.

Rave I meant as 1.1. it's faster than brawl but slower than melee.

I actually have to disagree. Remember that the only thing we're changing is the damage ratio.
I'd be blunt in saying that something so small could be such a big difference, but for obvious reasons, upping the ratio doesn't speed Brawl up by too much.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

ren is gonna host one

hes done offline ones before

 

[Renegade TX2000]

ren is gonna host one

hes done offline ones before

what happend? oh online tournament on aib. hmm it's a possibility

 

[Dark 3nergy]

its your thread, your idea!

 

[Renegade TX2000]

its your thread, your idea!

it is my thread but it wasn't the first time this was brought up.

 

[comboking]

Ignore this post I was going to host a tourney but thought it was too short notice.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Quite descriptive this gentlemen is. The points he has are certainly valid by my standards; games would actually move faster if the players could KO easier and earlier. This would also make the more campier characters stand a bit more of a chance up close, mainly in spacing their opponent back out of range.
Characters like MK wouldn't have to be banned, and the game in general would become somewhat more controlled.
Chaingrab stalling and such not lasting as long = Less time wasted by opponents like D3 and Falco.
Yes, i personally agree that this disrupts the metagame to some quality, it is definitely something we should take into consideration on how it systematically renders most CGs, camping moves, and natural combos indefinite in gameplay. Their use becomes of less importance due to how slightly upping the damage ratio a tad can be disruptive to most metagames and character relevant strategies.

Edit: @Cherry, not really. The fastest pace Brawl has ever been played is the slowest recorded potential seen in Melee.

The only sure thing this will solve is CGs and making games take less time.

The other things said here are possibilities, I may doubt it myself, main reason I don't like the 1.1 idea, but hey why not test it.

 

[•Col•]

Edit: @Cherry, not really. The fastest pace Brawl has ever been played is the slowest recorded potential seen in Melee.

Orly?

Hungrybox vs Armada Apex2010 GF

 

[Kewkky]

With 700+ posts here, it's hard to read them all at once, so I'm just gonna throw this out here...


At 1.1 damage ratio, DDD can chaingrab MK.


Wonder what other random things we can find out, huh? I mean, at first glance it wouldn't seem like that big of a difference, but timing for things gets stricter because of the increase in knockback (less true combos, harder to get out of attacks with low set knockback, etc), and the increased hitstun adds more to the game than what was there before (more/less chaingrabs with set/low knockback, faster kills by strong characters, less survivability for light characters... Personally, I find it much more of a drastic metagame-changing alteration than the addition of an air time/ground time time-out rule.

At home, and with a specific number of friends, I play Brawl as extraordinary as possible. I've played down to 0.5 damage ratio, up to 2.0, I've turned on handicap and played around, we still play in every stage in the game (I have a personal attraction to New Pork City and Summit), we've done items and varied from the most broken to the least affecting... I've even played in Summit in an actual tourney against one of those friends of mine once it was our turn to play! Those changes don't seem like a big deal theoretically, I mean, a x1.1 knockback increase doesn't seem like a big deal at all on paper, but in the middle of a match, there's a certain number of things that change, and player have to adjust accordingly.

 

[IsmaR]

At 1.1 damage ratio, DDD can chaingrab MK.

I don't think you are doing it right.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

At 1.1 damage ratio, DDD can chaingrab MK..

You set the ratio wrong.

DDD can only CG MK if it's 0.8 or lower.

 

[Wretched]

This reminds me of when people seriously suggested that we play fast brawl, except this is legit.

 

[Ripple]

With 700+ posts here, it's hard to read them all at once, so I'm just gonna throw this out here...

Wonder what other random things we can find out, huh? I mean, at first glance it wouldn't seem like that big of a difference, but timing for things gets stricter because of the increase in knockback (less true combos, harder to get out of attacks with low set knockback, etc), and the increased hitstun adds more to the game than what was there before (more/less chaingrabs with set/low knockback, faster kills by strong characters, less survivability for light characters... Personally, I find it much more of a drastic metagame-changing alteration than the addition of an air time/ground time time-out rule..

so..... you like?

(just gonna ignore that D3 part, probably an accident)

 

[Flutter NiTE]

Sonic's uair is a bit iffy. It almost semi spikes depending on the angle.

 

[Zatchiel]

The only sure thing this will solve is CGs and making games take less time.

The other things said here are possibilities, I may doubt it myself, main reason I don't like the 1.1 idea, but hey why not test it.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, i was just pointing out it's ups and downs. The whole CG ordeal is good if it ends earlier, although scoring KOs can become easier for people like Snake(whose fresh Utilt kills Jigglypuff at 70-75% at 1.1?).
It would def. be good to implement this in to test the waters for a while, though.

Orly?

Hungrybox vs Armada Apex2010 GF

Ya, rly. I've seen campier, longer Bawrl matches.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

DDD cannot CG MK at 1.1

DDD can start CGing MK at 0.8

there's a certain number of things that change, and player have to adjust accordingly.

we're already doing that through how we naturally have our stage selection set up

 

[Orion*]

how is diddy and falco clearly better than snake? the fact that the top snake outperforms the top diddy and the top falco should say something.

wills dk performs better than vinnies gaw. i guess dk must be a better character?

This reminds me of when people seriously suggested that we play fast brawl, except this is legit.

this

 

[•Col•]

Ya, rly. I've seen campier, longer Bawrl matches.

You said that even the slowest Melee match is just as fast if not faster than the fastest Brawl match.

So, no.