Adjusting the Damage Ratio to 1.1 for Balance

[Cherry64]

I'm thinking of asking some of my friends to help me test this now too yeah.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I was helping someone test this, and it seems pretty legit. We got a lot of matches recorded, so I hope he puts them up soon. Peach has a much easier time killing, which is awesome

even staled, her fthrow can still kill too, so be sure to get those pummels in. Or at least keep it fresh-ish

 

[Moozle]

1.1 DR increases histun, correct? Or did I just make that up?

Edit: Nvm I found out all of the information. Sorry.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Played several games of 1.1. Can't say I'm a huge fan.
I definitely do not like shield grabs being nerfed to near un-usability for characters with average to bad grab range. I imagine Dedede can still get by the shield push back, but I hadn't played any games as him.

Nothing really wrong with this mode, though. Bread and butter combos were still in there, games ended faster, etc. I'm just not really a fan, but I won't discount it yet. I'll try and get some more games in the near future with this feature.

 

[B!squick]

Well, I've never been a fan of the whole shield grab thing anyway, because it punishes aggressive playstyles. Less shield grabbing can only improve things.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

There is nothign wrong with Ness' fair. If you are playing a level 9 computer, they do that in 1.0, too (fair doesn't seem to stick to level 9 CPUs, they immediately SDI out).

 

[Ripple]

Played several games of 1.1. Can't say I'm a huge fan.
I definitely do not like shield grabs being nerfed to near un-usability for characters with average to bad grab range. I imagine Dedede can still get by the shield push back, but I hadn't played any games as him.

Nothing really wrong with this mode, though. Bread and butter combos were still in there, games ended faster, etc. I'm just not really a fan, but I won't discount it yet. I'll try and get some more games in the near future with this feature.

characters with worse grab range are not nerfed. there is no increase to shield pressure apparently.

which actually doesn't make sense to me since I tested this and there WAS an increase

 

[Cherry64]

I'm playing right now. there is definitely more shield pressure.

 

[John12346]

For those who are against the idea, think of it in reverse.

Pretend we've been using ratio 1.1 all this time, then someone comes along and suggests the ratio should be changed to 1.0. People could arguably complain MK would have an un-SDI'able tornado, Dedede could chaingrab easier, Falco could chaingrab longer and to the edge, Pika makes Fox unviable, etc etc etc.

No matter which ratio we use; 1.0 or 1.1, there will be cons. What we need to measure is which one has less cons and more pros.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

characters with worse grab range are not nerfed. there is no increase to shield pressure apparently.

which actually doesn't make sense to me since I tested this and there WAS an increase

No, you misunderstood. Shield hit lag is still the same (as far as I can tell), however this isn't true for the shield push back. It seemed that both my opponent and I were getting pushed in our shield far enough that it would mess up common moves you can shield grab.

I haven't tested this extensively, though, so it's possible it was some other occurrence. It's just my observation that shield push back has been increased (effectively making more moves safe on shield). If you could look into it and confirm/deny this, it would be welcomed.

 

[B!squick]

No, you misunderstood. Shield hit lag is still the same (as far as I can tell), however this isn't true for the shield push back. It seemed that both my opponent and I were getting pushed in our shield far enough that it would mess up common moves you can shield grab.

I haven't tested this extensively, though, so it's possible it was some other occurrence. It's just my observation that shield push back has been increased (effectively making more moves safe on shield). If you could look into it and confirm/deny this, it would be welcomed.

With this is mind, does it make some of Bowser's moves safe on block, such as FTilt, FAir, or even DAir? That's one of Bowser's problems. Even FTilt can sometimes be shield grabbed at max distance. x_x

 

[Cherry64]

No, you misunderstood. Shield hit lag is still the same (as far as I can tell), however this isn't true for the shield push back. It seemed that both my opponent and I were getting pushed in our shield far enough that it would mess up common moves you can shield grab.

I haven't tested this extensively, though, so it's possible it was some other occurrence. It's just my observation that shield push back has been increased (effectively making more moves safe on shield). If you could look into it and confirm/deny this, it would be welcomed.

This is what I mean. I fox Ditto'd and he went into rapid kicks, so I shield grabbed him, we moved like 1/8th of FD and I was pushed off the stage. not a little but like when snake is caught out of his cypher. that jump was stupid. I grabbed him and got air released because of the shield pushback.

However I will note that if we go to 1.1 we will need 4 lives. Stocks get eaten in this, it's ********. and It'll take a lot of getting used too as well, I can't say I liked it much at first, but it'd be good for the norm, Meta is still ****ing stupid, if not more stupid. But one character that's already broken shouldn't decide the vote here. We didn't go into a lot of characters so I can't say for many, but samus just got boosted up a bit, not much but enough to get out of the tier she's in.

 

[Mota]

Initially I was against this, but stuff it why not. Could breathe some new life into this slow asz game haha

 

[JOE!]

a lulzy discovery:

ganon's ftilt will *kill* Ike from the center of FD now at a tad over 70%.

It knocks him far enough away at just the right angle so that he cant recover

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

For those who are against the idea, think of it in reverse.

Pretend we've been using ratio 1.1 all this time, then someone comes along and suggests the ratio should be changed to 1.0. People could arguably complain MK would have an un-SDI'able tornado, Dedede could chaingrab easier, Falco could chaingrab longer and to the edge, Pika makes Fox unviable, etc etc etc.

No matter which ratio we use; 1.0 or 1.1, there will be cons. What we need to measure is which one has less cons and more pros.

Hey guys-this. Whenever we're working against the status quo, we should apply this logic. We should say, "if the proposed change was the norm, and we were changing into what is normal now, what then?". Helps beat tradition-based arguments.

 

[Sharky]

Hey guys-this. Whenever we're working against the status quo, we should apply this logic. We should say, "if the proposed change was the norm, and we were changing into what is normal now, what then?". Helps beat tradition-based arguments.

but it isn't the other way around, people have put two years of work into the status-quo, and banning mk would have a much better effect. I'm sorry but I can't possibly accept a version of a game where something as basic as jab combos doesn't work for half the cast.

 

[Big O]

characters with worse grab range are not nerfed. there is no increase to shield pressure apparently.

which actually doesn't make sense to me since I tested this and there WAS an increase

Just because I see like 3-4 other people saying this I looked into it again. I still have no idea why you guys think changing the damage ratio increases shield push or does anything to shields period. I tested several different moves, characters, damage ratio settings, etc. and all of the results point to there being no change at all.

Four fully charged giant punches push Mario to the edge of FD from the center spawn. Ten Dtilts and three jabs push him to the edge. Luigi slides far enough to get in between the < < marks after a giant punch. Even the launch speeds obtained from hitting the shields is the same no matter what damage ratio you put it on. If the changes from 1.0 to 1.1 is significant enough to be noticed, why are the numbers the same and why do the max/min ratios show nothing out of the ordinary (both in the results screen and in the game)? If people are missing shield grabs, why is the distance pushed the same in 0.5, 2.0, 1.0, and 1.1 (I tried the test on all of those ratios)? Clearly either you guys are doing something I'm not, or you guys are mistaken.

TL;DR?

Placebo effect ITT.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

but it isn't the other way around, people have put two years of work into the status-quo, and banning mk would have a much better effect. I'm sorry but I can't possibly accept a version of a game where something as basic as jab combos doesn't work for half the cast.

This.

There are a bunch of other moves that don't work properly anymore, I noticed like some did that Falcon's nair doesn't work right.

I can't really support this after playing and trying it out. Especially when people are saying MK sucks when they made his moveset even safer on block, and nerfing tornado apparently is a godsent or something.

 

[DeadPool]

well Sharky, im pretty sure that it wouldn't take as much time to study the mus as it did the first time around
and there goes that word AGAIN, "work"
playin a videogame is no work ive ever heard of
as for the jab comment, i believe that what 1.1 does is provide all the characters to change their style of playing
and maybe banning mk wouldve been easier but it didnt pass and even if it did then complains about snake would be inevitable

 

[EPsilon933]

I was helping someone test this, and it seems pretty legit. We got a lot of matches recorded, so I hope he puts them up soon. Peach has a much easier time killing, which is awesome

Doc King (MetaKnight) vs Zant (Lucario)

Moozle (Diddy Kong) vs Zant (Lucario)

Moozle (Marth) vs Zant (Lucario)

Moozle (Peach) vs Zant (Lucario)

Moozle (Peach) vs Zant (Lucario)

Moozle (Peach) vs Zant (Lucario)

Moozle (Pokemon Trainer) vs Zant (Lucario)

Moozle (Zero Suit Samus) vs Zant (Lucario)

Rasta Ray (Diddy Kong) vs Zant (Lucario)

Rasta Ray (Diddy Kong) vs Zant (Lucario)

 

[Doc King]

Just leave it as it is. If you put it to 1.1 then it would be hard for characters to combo and the game would basically have no combos in it. 1.0 is fine.

 

[EPsilon933]

Just leave it as it is. If you put it to 1.1 then it would be hard for characters to combo and the game would basically have no combos in it. 1.0 is fine.

The last two days we played online, we played in 1.1.

 

[comboking]

Just leave it as it is. If you put it to 1.1 then it would be hard for characters to combo and the game would basically have no combos in it. 1.0 is fine.

Well you didn't mention that it gives people some combos now.

 

[HeroMystic]

Just leave it as it is. If you put it to 1.1 then it would be hard for characters to combo and the game would basically have no combos in it. 1.0 is fine.

 

[Doc King]

Oh ok Zant, this actually might be a good idea, but the only thing is that it would change the game a lot and for the ppl that have been playing it for the past 2 years would have to basically restart there meta games with all 35 characters.

 

[EPsilon933]

Oh ok Zant, this actually might be a good idea, but the only thing is that it would change the game a lot and for the ppl that have been playing it for the past 2 years would have to basically restart there meta games with all 39 characters.

It's not at all a restart.

 

[Doc King]

Well, if the BBR wants 1.1 or 1.0 to be the official tourney rules then that's fine with me. It's just that I don't want Peach to go up and Dedede to go down.

 

[HeroMystic]

Outside of a few key characters (Falco, and Metaknight apparently), a lot of general things are the same, only thing that'd change would be frame data. The obvious changes such as Pikachu's chain-grabs are very MU-specific.

I'm sorry but I can't possibly accept a version of a game where something as basic as jab combos doesn't work for half the cast.

This is my biggest concern so far though. Clarification?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

This is my biggest concern so far though. Clarification?

He must be talking about 1.0. Heh.

 

[EPsilon933]

Well, if the BBR wants 1.1 or 1.0 to be the official tourney rules then that's fine with me. It's just that I don't want Peach to go up and Dedede to go down.

Peach going up would be a good thing. Extra character balance is never a bad thing. I don't know how much King Dedede gets nerfed, but Dark 3nergy made a few notes about his nerfed dthrow.

Heres what the CG for DDD looks like pretty much now;

Spoiler

1.1 CGing

**Marth is the only character that falls off the CG list.

******** Difficulty (3 Grabs Max):
**Luigi - in 1.1 luigi can still be CG'ed he still slides too far for ftilt, but since he doesnt fall on his face he can still be wall infinited.



VERY HARD Difficulty (4 Grabs Max):

Diddy Kong - feels similar to 1.0
**Toon Link- his CG has become pretty hard. I'd say it must be done frame perfect in 1.1 Can still follow up with ftilt though.
Pit - feels similar to 1.0



HARD Difficulty (4-5 Grabs):

Peach- feels similar to 1.0
Ice Climbers (Solo Popo or SoPo)-feels the same as 1.0




AVERAGE Difficulty (5-6 Grabs)


Mario - feels similar to 1.0
Yoshi - feels similar to 1.0
Wario - feels similar to 1.0. I can AR>usmash still out of a CG. And AR>utilt, and AR>Bair.
Link - feels similar to 1.0
Gannondorf - feels similar to 1.0
Samus - feels similar to 1.0
R.O.B.- feels similar to 1.0
King Dedede - feels similar to 1.0
Wolf - feels similar to 1.0
Captain Falcon - feels similar to 1.0
Ivysaur - feels similar to 1.0
Charizard - feels similar to 1.0
Lucario - feels similar to 1.0
Ike - feels similar to 1.0
Ness - feels similar to 1.0
Lucas - feels similar to 1.0
Snake - feels similar to 1.0
Sonic - feels similar to 1.0

VERY EASY Difficulty (6+ Grabs!)

Bowser - feels similar to 1.0
Donkey Kong - feels similar to 1.0

 

[Megatron1]

Simply no, because for starters, MK does not rely on tornado for his metagame. You're also getting rid of several chaingrabs and introducing a whole new metagame. New stage is acceptable. Getting rid of chaingrabs, no.

 

[Doc King]

Balance is good, I just don't want any girly characters ruleing the game like This could buff up all of the weak characters that don't combo much like G&W, Samus, Sheik, etc.

Edit: G&W isn't weak but this could improve him.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

For those who are against the idea, think of it in reverse.

Pretend we've been using ratio 1.1 all this time, then someone comes along and suggests the ratio should be changed to 1.0. People could arguably complain MK would have an un-SDI'able tornado, Dedede could chaingrab easier, Falco could chaingrab longer and to the edge, Pika makes Fox unviable, etc etc etc.

No matter which ratio we use; 1.0 or 1.1, there will be cons. What we need to measure is which one has less cons and more pros.

this right here

only prob with that tho john numbers, is we need even more variety of character mains testing this, tbh. Like we really need a IC player to test this

Balance is good, I just don't want any girly characters ruleing the game like This could buff up all of the weak characters that don't combo much like G&W, Samus, Sheik, etc.

Edit: G&W isn't weak but this could improve him.

she might be able to kill earlier, but ddd can also kill earlier too. We can also still CG her. The only mu that really changes as far as grab wise is marth.

 

[Doc King]

Simply no, because for starters, MK does not rely on tornado for his metagame. You're also getting rid of several chaingrabs and introducing a whole new metagame. New stage is acceptable. Getting rid of chaingrabs, no.

You can clearly see on my match with Zant that MK doesn't always relie on his tornado and this is gonna basically make is even harder to combo and will get rid of some special techniques of a lot of characters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djVVODsI7_g

 

[Dark 3nergy]

how does it get rid of ATs? ATs are usually little programing exploits in the move in question like Toon Links quick draw.

You can still bdacus/dacus.

Guaranteed combos that existed from 1.0, like olimars dthrow>usmash at low % probably dont work in 1.1

 

[comboking]

Ike's Jab is affected by this like crazy. But since he kills earlier it isn't that big of a deal. Jab to uptilt still works. Could we get some doubles action on wifi?

 

[Sharky]

well Sharky, im pretty sure that it wouldn't take as much time to study the mus as it did the first time around
and there goes that word AGAIN, "work"
playin a videogame is no work ive ever heard of
as for the jab comment, i believe that what 1.1 does is provide all the characters to change their style of playing
and maybe banning mk wouldve been easier but it didnt pass and even if it did then complains about snake would be inevitable

complaints about snake are already seeming to be inevitable for 1.1 lmao. And snake has losing mu's in 1.0 so he definitely wouldn't be a gamebreaking concern.

 

[DeadPool]

well the major complaints for snake are from the MKs because he pwns them now
also by nerfing the capabilities of certain moves of MK now everyone seems to have a counterpick
Marth being Snakes counterpick

 

[Doc King]

Making the damge ratio to 1.1 is not gonna nessasarily balance the game, its just gonna change it. Like Metaknight's dair would become a very powerful semi spike, the SL would kill easier along with the d smash. Also G&W would become stronger and would get a buff because he doesn't combo a whole lot. Also, this would ruin Fox because he'll lose the up tilt combo and will ruin Zelda because of her lack of survivalbility and she'll end up dying in like the 90%.

 

[Ripple]

Four fully charged giant punches push Mario to the edge of FD from the center spawn. Ten Dtilts and three jabs push him to the edge. Luigi slides far enough to get in between the < < marks after a giant punch. Even the launch speeds obtained from hitting the shields is the same no matter what damage ratio you put it on. If the changes from 1.0 to 1.1 is significant enough to be noticed, why are the numbers the same and why do the max/min ratios show nothing out of the ordinary (both in the results screen and in the game)? If people are missing shield grabs, why is the distance pushed the same in 0.5, 2.0, 1.0, and 1.1 (I tried the test on all of those ratios)? Clearly either you guys are doing something I'm not, or you guys are mistaken.
T.

ok big o, try testing this out like someone who doesn't have AR. go to FD with DK and D3.

place D3 right next to DK and have DK ground pound.

after the first slap hits your shield, grab with D3.

when done right you should grab DK where he stands and will have not traded hits. (on 1.0 and 1.1)

NOW,

turn it up to 1.5 DR and do the same thing.

I personally could not get it ONCE without trading hits and was mashing A like crazy to grab him.

now turn it up to 2.0, you shouldn't be able to grab him at all

Making the damage ratio to 1.1 is not gonna nessasarily balance the game, its just gonna change it. Like Metaknight's dair would become a very powerful semi spike, the SL would kill easier along with the d smash. Also G&W would become stronger and would get a buff because he doesn't combo a whole lot. Also, this would ruin Fox because he'll lose the up tilt combo and will ruin Zelda because of her lack of survivalbility and she'll end up dying in like the 90%.

DOc, I'm sorry but you've been wrong on almost every account, MK does not get better just because he hits harder. EVERYONE DOES and we have to think about the whole picture. from everyone's testing, it looks like he'll be worse thanks to nado being SDIable. G&W isn't a punisher character, he is a reads character. he'll probably stay the same. and even if he is better, he'll definitely not be unbeatable. FOX GETS BETTER! he loses his bad match up with pika and up tilt actually combos BETTER THAN BEFORE, since it has more knockback and hitstun it is actually safe to combo 4 up tilts in a row