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3DS Community Patch Notes v1.0.4 -- Engine Changes to DI

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Emblem Lord

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If Marcina's throws link better to combos it's probably only by a frame or two. I unpatched my game and I tested alot of stuff and you can do the same stuff in both versions. I think that Marcina players are now just much more used to the Smash 4 iteration of the character and the 3DS controls so our inputs are tighter. So while testing everything it seemed like linking out of throws was easier because now after a month of practice it is. But I don't think it's the patch after extensive testing.

Could be proven wrong though since I didn't count frames.
 
D

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If he still has the selection between short fuse bombs and normal bombs (both awesome) and normal arrows and fire arrows (both good), then he'll still be great
I'm not thinking with customs in mind, and still implies he was great at all
 

EdreesesPieces

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As game design gets more advanced, so will the attention to detail. There's a reason why older games are more popular for speedrunning, because game design was still young and there were no viable methods to balance or patch games besides releasing whole new revisions (like Melee v1.00 and 1.02). We are in the modern age where the internet is fast enough to transfer hundreds of megabytes within only a few minutes, so game companies aren't limited to their distribution methods and are able to make changes to anything they see fit. Nintendo is trying to make Smash 4 the best smash game they possibly can, and since the vision of Smash Bros has always had it's roots as a party game, they are going to try to remove and fix all potential friendship-ruiners, tournament gimmicks, any type of unintended deviance from their design philosophy. You can't please everyone, the most you can do is please the majority.
I highly doubt item canceling displeases a single person. The only person it displeases is a scrub who gets upset when they lose and blames AT, when in reality they are just losing because they are the worse player. The type of person to be upset that this exists is just using AT's as a scapegoat and is just going to get upset at something else now that the glitches are gone.
 

JoeInky

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:4drmario:

Neutral A combo
Dmg: 9% -> 9%
KB: 76 -> 76
Startup and endlag: exactly the same

STilt
Dmg: 8% -> 8%
KB: 88 -> 88
Startup and endlag: exactly the same

DTilt
Dmg: 8% -> 8%
KB: 89 -> 89
Startup and endlag: exactly the same

UTilt
Dmg: 7% -> 7%
KB: 119 -> 119
Startup and endlag: exactly the same

Dash Attack
Dmg: 9% -> 9%
KB: 97 -> 97
Startup and endlag: exactly the same
Travel distance: exactly the same

Raw FSmash
Dmg: 20% -> 20%
KB: 188 -> 188
Startup and endlag: exactly the same

Fully Charged FSmash
Dmg: 27% -> 27%
KB: 254 -> 254

Raw USmash
Dmg: 16% -> 16%
KB: 155 -> 155
Startup and endlag: exactly the same

Fully Charged USmash
Dmg: 23% -> 23%
KB: 214 -> 214

Raw DSmash (Sourspot)
Dmg: 11% -> 11%
KB: 131 -> 131
Startup and endlag: exactly the same

Fully Charged DSmash (Sourspot)
Dmg: 16% -> 16%
KB: 167 -> 167

Raw DSmash (Sweetspot)
Dmg: 14% -> 14%
KB: 149 -> 149

Fully Charged DSmash (Sweetspot)
Dmg: 19% -> 19%
KB: 194 -> 194

NAir (Sourspot)
Dmg: 5% -> 5%
KB: 79 -> 79
Landing lag: exactly the same

NAir (Sweetspot)
Dmg: 9% -> 9%
KB: 91 -> 91

FAir
Dmg: 16% -> 16%
KB: 160 -> 170
Landing lag: exactly the same

UAir
Dmg: 8% -> 8%
KB: 89 -> 89
Landing lag: exactly the same

BAir (Sourspot)
Dmg: 8% -> 8%
KB: 79 -> 79
Landing lag: exactly the same

BAir (Sweetspot)
Dmg: 14% -> 14%
KB: 129 -> 129

DAir
Hits: 7 -> 5

Dmg: 13% - > 11%
KB: 94 -> 94
Landing lag: slightly reduced
Knockback is slightly more vertical


Pummel
Dmg: 3~4% -> 3~4%

FThrow
Dmg: 9% -> 9%
KB: 94 -> 94
Endlag: exactly the same

BThrow
Dmg: 12% -> 12%
KB: 117 -> 117
Endlag: exactly the same

DThrow
Dmg: 5% -> 5%
KB: 78 -> 78
Endlag: exactly the same

UThrow
Dmg: 8% -> 8%
KB: 100 -> 100
Endlag: exactly the same

Neutral B
Dmg: 5% -> 5%
KB: 26 -> 26
Pill properties: exactly the same
Startup and endlag: exactly the same

Side B
Dmg: 8% -> 8%
KB: 15 -> 15
Startup and endlag: exactly the same

Down B
Hits: 5 -> 5
Dmg: 9% -> 9%
KB: 118 -> 118
Startup and endlag: exactly the same
Travel height/distance: exactly the same

Up B (Sourspot)
Dmg: 7% -> 7%
KB: 91 -> 91
Recovery distance: exactly the same

Up B (Sweetspot)
Dmg: 14% -> 14%
KB: 148 -> 148

Movement speeds: unchanged.
Jump height: unchanged.
Airdodge: no changes
So his DAir hits less and recovers abit quicker and he got a very small knockback buff for his FAir (that basically translates to: he can kill Jiggly from the centre of battlefield, 9% quicker).

This takes a lot longer than I thought it would so I doubt I'm going to bother doing it for anyone else.
 
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Aunt Jemima

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:4drmario:



So his DAir hits less and recovers abit quicker and he got a very small knockback buff for his FAir (that basically translates to: he can kill Jiggly from the centre of battlefield, 9% quicker).

This takes a lot longer than I thought it would so I doubt I'm going to bother doing it for anyone else.
Question: How'd you get those KB numbers? :o

Also, a question to anybody who can answer it:

Using the method shown in the OP, how would you find out the knockback of moves that kill Mario? Wouldn't they appear the same across versions?
 

Tagxy

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I highly doubt item canceling displeases a single person. The only person it displeases is a scrub who gets upset when they lose and blames AT, when in reality they are just losing because they are the worse player. The type of person to be upset that this exists is just using AT's as a scapegoat and is just going to get upset at something else now that the glitches are gone.
AT's and glitches are not one and the same. Glitches in reality do harm to the game. And while I think anecdotal claims arent helpful imo I think there are a lot of people that prefer they are fixed.
 
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Gatoray

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I highly doubt item canceling displeases a single person. The only person it displeases is a scrub who gets upset when they lose and blames AT, when in reality they are just losing because they are the worse player. The type of person to be upset that this exists is just using AT's as a scapegoat and is just going to get upset at something else now that the glitches are gone.
This isn't an issue of pleasing/displeasing, it's an issue of developer intent. Is something in the game that was unintentional? Yes? Okay, just patch it out, because it's easy to do in 2014. And just like I said before, you can't please everyone.
 

JoeInky

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Question: How'd you get those KB numbers? :o

Also, a question to anybody who can answer it:

Using the method shown in the OP, how would you find out the knockback of moves that kill Mario? Wouldn't they appear the same across versions?

I just do the handicap set to 150% method, use a move and then quit the match to look at the launcher speed stat.
 

EdreesesPieces

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AT's and glitches are not one and the same. Glitches in reality do harm to the game.
I meant AT's based on glitches. That's your opinion. What does a game harm and good is 100% based on opinion. Many feel glitches are good and others feel they are not. All I am saying is the people complaining glitches are making the game less fun because they are losing are going to lose regardless of whether they exist, and they will find something else to complain about once they are patched out.

This isn't an issue of pleasing/displeasing, it's an issue of developer intent. Is something in the game that was unintentional? Yes? Okay, just patch it out, because it's easy to do in 2014. And just like I said before, you can't please everyone.
You can't please everyone, but I firmly believe leaving in the unintentional side affects that are moderate (patch out freeze glitches and game breakers, but leave in glitches that left a certain character move a little faster) will please the most amount of people.
 
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icekirbyixi

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*Pac-Mains dying in the distance*

Why, why?! This was such a mean tech and so easy to do too.

Kirby's buffs though. Gonna miss that reliably quick N-Air but his kicking moves seem worth it, they really feel good to hit as and extend nicely.
Nair seems the same, if not faster to me :x
 

icekirbyixi

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Multi hit moves had a property where they could spike when you cancelled them earlier.

As in you'd input a UAir, fast fall it so it doesn't complete, and it would spike your opponent.
Kirby's dair has a spiking property on its last hit I believe, so that shouldn't have been removed.
It definitely spikes still :D no worries.
 

Myran

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Wondering if the OP is gonna be updated with the Olimar info I gave. I could give exact details for which moves have increased damage if necessary.
 

Tagxy

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I meant AT's based on glitches. That's your opinion. What does a game harm and good is 100% based on opinion. Many feel glitches are good and others feel they are not. All I am saying is the people complaining glitches are making the game less fun because they are losing are going to lose regardless of whether they exist, and they will find something else to complain about once they are patched out.

You can't please everyone, but I firmly believe leaving in the unintentional side affects that are moderate (patch out freeze glitches and game breakers, but leave in glitches that left a certain character move a little faster) will please the most amount of people.
It has nothing to do with people losing, I feel like youre just trying to put down opinions that arent in agreement with yours. Additionally the opposite could be said, people who are upset about their removal are just complaining because theyll start losing now that the glitch is gone. Obviously neither of these are fully true, and instead the better answer can be said to come from a design perspective which in almost every case (if not all) will favor the removal of the glitch.

This discussion happened already a few pages ago though, so I'll quote what I said before reiterating points.
When people ask that glitches remain in the game, theyre essentially asking that the game be balanced around jank which in turn can create more jank. Remove the glitches, see where the game lands, balance accordingly.

I highly doubt it was balanced around casual play or Mac wouldve been nerfed into the ground. Sakurai said as much in an interview as well I believe. Im not going to agree with everything but people are reading too far into things, lol
Since youre quoting Sirlin, he speaks against them in a very recent podcast he did you can find here:
http://www.sirlin.net/posts/podcast-sirlin-on-game-design
He uses a concept called cocaine logic, something to the extent of "cocaine is good, people want it, people pay for it so we should just sell it in a cocaine part of town". The idea being that theres something people like, but people gloss over the bad affects it has. Before making claims trying to weigh the good and bad affects of specific glitches, listen to the podcast as he goes over why glitches in general aren't good.
Again this glosses over negative affects, particularly those glitches in general cause (such as issues of accessibility, misbalance, knowledge, etc. and at the very least it causes stress on elegance in game design) in order to argue for something specific. The podcast puts it best however and I dont wish to do it injustice by butchering its message here.
 
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LordFluffy

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Pretty sure its already said somewhere but OP has it wrong on little mac Side B in the sense that the horizontal distance is only shorter when using it in the air, grounded Side B is unaffected. Have a friend with 1.0.3 here so we can confirm.
 

Conda

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I meant AT's based on glitches. That's your opinion. What does a game harm and good is 100% based on opinion. Many feel glitches are good and others feel they are not. All I am saying is the people complaining glitches are making the game less fun because they are losing are going to lose regardless of whether they exist, and they will find something else to complain about once they are patched out.



You can't please everyone, but I firmly believe leaving in the unintentional side affects that are moderate (patch out freeze glitches and game breakers, but leave in glitches that left a certain character move a little faster) will please the most amount of people.
Glitches are only good by random chance. GTA glitches are always fun, as are those in Just Cause. But a glitch in Starcraft is a big no-no. Same goes for Smash.

Melee was a happy mistake, and a big one. If airdodging into the ground was buggy and made you take 50% damage, rather than wavedash, that would have been a bad glitch and this community would definitely not be so positively hopeful about discovering and protecting new glitches.


Glitches are never a thing you should want, because it means you don't like what the developer is capable of - you want deus ex machina to come in and design your game based on random code mishaps.

This was the case with the smash community and Sakurai in 2008. We hoped for new glitches to be discovered in Brawl that would make the game accidentally play like Melee. At the time, we did not trust or respect Sakurai's vision, which is understandable as he made it clear Brawl was not a game for the competitive scene. But this has all changed and turned on its head - we now have a design team that is making the game competitively balanced and interesting, and we shouldn't still be wanting glitches to come in and disrupt the game's mechanical balance. Because the delicate balance in place is actually good this time around.


Glitches can have positive effects, but it is always better to have positive effects be intentionally granted by the developer. Emergent gameplay should be due to mechanics designed by the developer, not by glitches. Glitches that DO end up being useful should ALWAYS be removed and replaced with a non-glitchy implementation of said mechanic by the developer.


It's always better for a gameplay mechanic that is fun to be provided by the developer intentionally, so the developer's talents and abilities can shine through in their implementation and design of said gameplay mechanic. We can see that in Smash 4, with Sakurai going through great lengths to hire a team and devote themselves to balancing the cast more than any Smash game thus far, and tweak game mechanics to work in a very elegant way that we haven't seen intentionally done in a Smash game before.


We don't need bugs to 'shake things up' this time around, and people need to get this through their heads. The same way Starcraft players don't welcome bugs into their meta, the Smash community has to be against them as well. Glitches take away from the intended design of the game, which we are supposed to respect if it deserves respect; and I believe Smash 4 does deserve respect in this case. It has done so much for competitive players this time around.

We have to learn to be comfortable with the fact that we are now, for the first time, playing Smash as it was intended and designed. Both casual AND competitive play is now intended in-game by developer design and intent. It's a first, and we shouldn't be taking it for granted or falling back to old habits.
 
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Jsteel3

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I think they made Toon Link's arrows faster same with his boomerang
I also think they made his up-throw easier to combo into.
And his ground throw recover seems shorter.
And a fully charged up smash can kill zero suit at 75%

I have no way of checking if these were changed of if I'm crazy can anyone give me some clarity?
 
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SamuraiPanda

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Wondering if the OP is gonna be updated with the Olimar info I gave. I could give exact details for which moves have increased damage if necessary.
I am one man and I work a job so I haven't gone through this thread yet. Anything in the OP was before work, things I've incidentally seen, or was specifically tagged to see.

Looking at your post though, I can include the % numbers but can't include any "seem to" impressions.
 
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FullMoon

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So after playing with Greninja a bit I come to realize that his nerfs... Don't really mean that much. Hydro Pump can still gimp recoveries fairly easily depending on the character, and the nerf to Up-Smash only means we can't combo it into Up-Air, which we could just do with Up-Throw if we really need it.

Overall Greninja just lost some options, but he's still a pretty damn good character.
 

Myran

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Warning Received
I am one man and I work a job so I haven't gone through this thread yet. Anything in the OP was before work, things I've incidentally seen, or was specifically tagged to see.

Looking at your post though, I can include the % numbers but can't include any "seem to" impressions.
Didn't mean to come off as hostile or anything. I'll get the numbers and other changes.
 
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jarvitz

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:4drmario:



So his DAir hits less and recovers abit quicker and he got a very small knockback buff for his FAir (that basically translates to: he can kill Jiggly from the centre of battlefield, 9% quicker).

This takes a lot longer than I thought it would so I doubt I'm going to bother doing it for anyone else.
This is exactly what we need for every character pretty much in order to know what has changed. good job. I just got home from work, but am thinking of doing this with zss. how long did it take?
 
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SamuraiPanda

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Didn't mean to come off as hostile or anything. I'll get the numbers and other changes.
No you weren't hostile, I just need more substantial info (or videos/gifs whatever) of the things you're providing.
 
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