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3DS Community Patch Notes v1.0.4 -- Engine Changes to DI

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TLMSheikant

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The 1.0.4 Toon Link fair is so weird. SH Fair landing doesnt autocancel. But SH Fair -> jump is now possible. Probably some IASA added to the move. In all my time labbing 1.0.3 and playing it at a few tourneys I did not notice it, that's for sure. It's very very likely this is something new. Sadly, im digital so I don't think I can revert to 1.0.3 easily. If someone could test if it was possible before it would be neat.
 
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Remzi

formerly VaBengal
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The 1.0.4 Toon Link fair is so weird. SH Fair landing doesnt autocancel. But SH Fair -> jump is now possible. Probably some IASA added to the move. In all my time labbing 1.0.3 and playing it at a few tourneys I did not notice it, that's for sure. It's very very likely this is something new. Sadly, im digital so I don't think I can revert to 1.0.3 easily. If someone could test if it was possible before it would be neat.
In that case, you can probably autocancel it using the DeLux method. Do any of TLs aerials autocancel on startup?
 

Lavani

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Yes new. It used to take at least 3% damage in one hit to send them back so they could plow through things like Rosaluma star bits and Sheik needles safely.

I haven't actually verified personally that these reflect Gordos now though.

Strictly in terms of damage building, being forced into dthrow>uair isn't really any worse than dthrow>fair or dthrow>nair were, and it can potentially be a KO combo at higher percents. The problem is that KO combo range is a really small percent and DI probably ruins it completely. Dedede's just more limited in option choices and more at the mercy of DI with the new throw, and it doesn't do anything to get opponents offstage where you can edgeguard them with Gordo and bair.

I can't seem to notice much difference in the move.
13%>12%, KOs about 15% later. Minor nerf, but still a nerf.
 

Galespark

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I don't know if someone already said this, but Lucario's Up-B landing lag is ridiculous now, holy crap.
 

Death Arcana

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Ganondorf can now full hop AD and end with an auto cancel

The 1.0.4 Toon Link fair is so weird. SH Fair landing doesnt autocancel. But SH Fair -> jump is now possible. Probably some IASA added to the move. In all my time labbing 1.0.3 and playing it at a few tourneys I did not notice it, that's for sure. It's very very likely this is something new. Sadly, im digital so I don't think I can revert to 1.0.3 easily. If someone could test if it was possible before it would be neat.
he was always able to jump out of a short hop Fair
 
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Judo777

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Glitches are bad

When people ask that glitches remain in the game, theyre essentially asking that the game be balanced around jank which in turn can create more jank. Remove the glitches, see where the game lands, balance accordingly.

Highly doubt it was balanced around casual play or Mac wouldve been nerfed into the ground. Sakurai said as much in an interview as well I believe. Im not going to agree with everything but people are reading too far into things, lol
No glitches are NOT bad. Have you ever read Sirlins piece on bannable things. He makes a very specific post that glitches in games don't make them bad, and I think uses puzzle fighter as an example. Game Designers intent is not what makes a game good, because that assumes that all game designers are capable of making great games(and more so did not mess up this particular time). Something being a good test of skill or fundamental strategies of value (things like reading your opponent, spacing, reacting, control of your character, and game knowledge) are what makes something good. If those elements test those things they are good. Go figure DACUS tests ALL of those things actually (or rather can only be fully utilitzed when the player correctly uses those things).

Smash is LITTERED with things you could call glitches that improved the game play. Smash DI, B reversing (seriously doubt the momentum shift was intended), L canceling and Wave Dashing by some (although I personally hate those things), ledge canceling, glide tossing. WIthout those things Smash would not be what it is, the thing that made people play it for years and years.
 

SonicZeroX

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Rush canceling seems to be gone too.

With both Diddy and Megaman I'm hitting myself with a Bobomb and trying to cancel the hitstun and it's not working at all.
 

Raziek

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Only :4robinf: change I can find it they fixed the glitch where charging Thoron to full in the air would refresh your double jump.

POSSIBLY fixed the deadzone on F-tilt where it would whiff if they were too close.
 

ParanoidDrone

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No glitches are NOT bad. Have you ever read Sirlins piece on bannable things. He makes a very specific post that glitches in games don't make them bad, and I think uses puzzle fighter as an example. Game Designers intent is not what makes a game good, because that assumes that all game designers are capable of making great games(and more so did not mess up this particular time). Something being a good test of skill or fundamental strategies of value (things like reading your opponent, spacing, reacting, control of your character, and game knowledge) are what makes something good. If those elements test those things they are good. Go figure DACUS tests ALL of those things actually (or rather can only be fully utilitzed when the player correctly uses those things).

Smash is LITTERED with things you could call glitches that improved the game play. Smash DI, B reversing (seriously doubt the momentum shift was intended), L canceling and Wave Dashing by some (although I personally hate those things), ledge canceling, glide tossing. WIthout those things Smash would not be what it is, the thing that made people play it for years and years.
Without getting into the debate over whether glitches improve the game or not, I'm pretty sure that as the makers of the game Nintendo (or Sakurai, whoever) gets the final say regarding whether they like how any glitches, exploits, etc. are used in competitive play. And if they don't like what they see, then it's their perogative to patch them out.
 
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O Rai

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Does pk flash still produce helpless free fall when used in mid air...? Cause I dont know how many sd's have occured when I slipped off the edge while edgeguarding with ness's pk flash (aka using pk flash inches ness forward a bit and since he is mid air he would fall into helpless fall after casting)

Also why does this cause freefall to begin with (same for dins fire on zel... are they afraid off offstage casting against edge guarding opponents?)
 

SonicZeroX

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Actually on second thought, I think Rush canceling might have been for weak hitstun only?

Well anyways old Diddy could cancel even strong hitstun with popgun as found by Leffen, and that's definitely not a thing anymore.
 

Conda

aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
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It's not about that. It's simply the principle. They changed that because they thought it was too powerful, which shows that the developers likely are getting their information from people with no knowledge of the game.
I'm tired of hearing this. The devs were still balancing and developing the game after the 3ds version came out. These are their internal changes.

It is like when you hand in a new revision of a document to your boss at work, or when you edit and hand in a final version of an essay in to your professor. These guys are doing their job, public complaints and crap haven't become part of the equation yet.

This is not a "review and revision after the game is complete" type of patch for the developers, as the game literally wasn't complete yet.

Now it is.

Only now is the game is actually fully complete by the developer, all that happened is the old 3ds version was updated to have the balance levels of the Wii U version. 1.04 is not a post-completion patch, it is a "okay, now the game is where we intend it to be at launch" patch.
Now the game as a whole is complete, and only NOW any future patches will be post-completion patches.
 

Judo777

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Without getting into the debate over whether glitches improve the game or not, I'm pretty sure that as the makers of the game Nintendo (or Sakurai, whoever) gets the final say regarding whether they like how any glitches, exploits, etc. are used in competitive play. And if they don't like what they see, then it's their perogative to patch them out.
I completely agree, but respectively we have a say in whether or not the game is actually good as a result. And it is perfectly reasonable to be upset about a bad game being made (especially when its previous games were so good).

@ Conda Conda They can't use that argument. Then why did they allow their customers to buy an incomplete game? Essentially they lied to their customers and released an incomplete game knowing they were gonna change it? That would be like me handing in something to my boss and saying "I know its wrong, but go ahead and buy it off me anyway, then you can buy the revised version later."
 
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Thinkaman

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Smash is LITTERED with things you could call glitches that improved the game play. Smash DI, B reversing (seriously doubt the momentum shift was intended)
Not getting into an argument, but SDI is absolutely definitely fully intended and deliberate. The wavebounce motion might not have been intended a la wavedashing, but the two components that manifest it (b-reversal and b-turnabout) are both also super explicitly intentional. They are hand-written into the code of all applicable specials.
 
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Iron Kraken

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If you accept the concept of patching, then you have to accept the concept of glitches being removed. It's pretty simple really. Glitches by their definition were not intended to be in the game. Sakurai obviously wants his game to be played as it was intended. Therefore, as long as patches keep coming, expect any and all glitches to be fixed as time goes on.
 

Iron Kraken

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Wow that's perhaps the most significant nerf IMO.
LOL not at all. Actually catching an opponent off guard with a hit during a Luma recall is a rare thing during high level play. In any case I don't think it's actually been removed, it's just a bit more difficult to pull off as a result of the faster Luma recall speed.

This is entirely insignificant compared to her other nerfs. Although more investigation needs to be done to see how much exactly things like her up-smash, down-smash, d-tilt, and grab have been nerfed.
 
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Cherubas

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Bowser Junior's Dair does a maximum of 9% now as opposed to 12% (according to the Guide on Smashboards). Down Throw does 7% instead of 8% (again according to the Guide).
(And according to me since I pointed it out hours before.... But people ignore me.)
 

Judo777

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Not getting into an argument, but SDI is absolutely definitely fully intended and deliberate. The wavebounce motion might not have been intended a la wavedashing, but the two components that manifest it (b-reversal and b-turnabout) are both also super explicitly intentional. They are hand-written into the code of all applicable specials.
Sorry I more so meant, the application of what SDI is used for was probably mot intended. The main use of SDI in Brawl was to allow yourself to move to places (and more importantly contact objects) you weren't going to originally. LIke SDING into the stage and teching it after a spike. Or SDIing into the floor and teching an upward hitting move. DEFINITELY not intended.
 

DiamondDust

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Only :4robinf: change I can find it they fixed the glitch where charging Thoron to full in the air would refresh your double jump.

POSSIBLY fixed the deadzone on F-tilt where it would whiff if they were too close.
Ugh. This makes me cry. Would've like an overall increase in speed.
 

Thinkaman

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Sorry I more so meant, the application of what SDI is used for was probably mot intended. The main use of SDI in Brawl was to allow yourself to move to places (and more importantly contact objects) you weren't going to originally. LIke SDING into the stage and teching it after a spike. Or SDIing into the floor and teching an upward hitting move. DEFINITELY not intended.
Ah, I thought you meant SDI in general.

BTW, when are we gonna play more Falcon ditto money matches?!?
 

DrakeRowan

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I can confirm PacMan's Fsmash is about 20% faster than it was prepatch.
 
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Tagxy

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No glitches are NOT bad. Have you ever read Sirlins piece on bannable things. He makes a very specific post that glitches in games don't make them bad, and I think uses puzzle fighter as an example. Game Designers intent is not what makes a game good, because that assumes that all game designers are capable of making great games(and more so did not mess up this particular time). Something being a good test of skill or fundamental strategies of value (things like reading your opponent, spacing, reacting, control of your character, and game knowledge) are what makes something good. If those elements test those things they are good. Go figure DACUS tests ALL of those things actually (or rather can only be fully utilitzed when the player correctly uses those things).

Smash is LITTERED with things you could call glitches that improved the game play. Smash DI, B reversing (seriously doubt the momentum shift was intended), L canceling and Wave Dashing by some (although I personally hate those things), ledge canceling, glide tossing. WIthout those things Smash would not be what it is, the thing that made people play it for years and years.
If true this must have been an old piece, or at least before patches were popular. Also I wouldnt consider many of those glitches, wavedashing included though I guess its questionable.

Since youre quoting Sirlin, he speaks against them in a very recent podcast he did you can find here:
http://www.sirlin.net/posts/podcast-sirlin-on-game-design
He uses a concept called cocaine logic, something to the extent of "cocaine is good, people want it, people pay for it so we should just sell it in a cocaine part of town". The idea being that theres something people like, but people gloss over the bad affects it has. Before making claims trying to weigh the good and bad affects of specific glitches, listen to the podcast as he goes over why glitches in general aren't good.
 
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Reaperfan

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It's not character specific, but I'm seeing a noticeable difference in the rate at which I'm finding custom moves on the classic roulette. Obviously I could just have had a lucky streak, but I don't think it's out of the question they upped the "drop rate" of custom moves.

Anyone else notice something similar?
 

Holder of the Heel

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(And according to me since I pointed it out hours before.... But people ignore me.)
Well I'm sorry for not looking attentively at every page prior to posting, was just trying to help.

Although I do see now you only mentioned one of those nerfs, so I do not see the problem.
 
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Leo Heart

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Not too many changes for Pacman.
Hydrant is now a set 13% (Melon can no longer break it)
Galaxian flagship now does 9% per tick ( down from 11%)

Tested everything else, nothing more seems changed.
 

NairWizard

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Not too many changes for Pacman.
Hydrant is now a set 13% (Melon can no longer break it)
Galaxian flagship now does 9% per tick ( down from 11%)

Tested everything else, nothing more seems changed.
Someone was saying that f-smash is 20% faster, but it wasn't verified.
 

an1bal

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is greninja's shado in shadow sneak more visible in some stages now?
 

Jabejazz

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SonicZeroX

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is greninja's shado in shadow sneak more visible in some stages now?
Nope. Still 100% invisible on stages like Flatzone.

Might be different on the Wii U though with all of it's fancy graphics.
 
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