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(」・ω・)」 MARS la Marf in Smash 4 (/・ω・)/

ChKn

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
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836
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Louisiana
Well, I've finally realized how bad I ****ed up in my younger years by not bothering my parents to take me to other tournies (out of state, most out of town tournies were not justifiable to go to based on the amount of people). When applying Shaya's advice that was given to me in the Marth critique thread, I figured out my main weakness, playing against other lesser known characters. (I played on AiB a bit the past few weeks. My connections are actually amazing against quite a bit of people.) I felt pretty annoyed thinking that what I've practiced on against, say Falco, Snake, and MK, went to complete **** against Lucas, Ike, and Yoshi. My mind just went completely blank, and I ended up reverting to ****ty rolling and running habits. I'm now at a point where I'm just stuck in between two extremes: knowing how to play MUs and keeping my fundamentals down, save for good decision making, and not knowing how to play and letting everything go straight to hell.

It does feel like rediscovering myself again, so I'm glad I'm at this point at the very least.
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
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Knowing MUs is key to a lot of things.
If you don't know a match up, then how do you know where Lucas/Ike/Yoshi are going to be in the next half second? You can't apply pressure with Marth without simply knowing what your opponent can do in any given scenario.

The only thing I feel I can do when dealt with a MU/player I'm not understanding is going back to basic ideas. Don't get punished for jumping. Try to camp out a power shield punish. Worse characters are more susceptible to shield-reshielding/blinking and are rarely safe if we power shield anything from them.
 

etecoon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
5,731
Monsanto literally so creepy that joke articles about them are still more creepy than funny
 

∫unk

Smash Master
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more than one place
hey all. im living with sky now so now I have dedicated players to play with now :D

marths fastfall is broken it makes him so graceful

also spam roll. spam is delicious and so is sushi so when in doubt block then roll and you'll confuse your opponents cause they'll be like ???? marth rolls???!?
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
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What's concerning people? What's there to flesh out? What match ups are you struggling in and why?

I feel like there's a lot I can say about a lot of things, but the combination of laziness (to produce images/other things to help me explain better/etc) and inspiration (knowing people will gain something from it [a lot easier if someones asking a question]) kinda completely destroys me.

I'm seeing just about everyone putting Dtilt into use, with varying goodness/success/failure. But I'm not seeing many people really feel smooth in their walking + dtilt spacing (either too slow or not attempted at all). People using the "99% of the time a bad idea" double down tilt, gotta kill the bad habit. I don't think people are grasping dtilt for ledge guarding though. Maybe I'm wrong.

Also Ftilt is great. Jab is also a pretty good move. Reversing up tilt before using it is the difference between a kill or not a kill, or a tipper/untipper hit. In terms of Fair usage, a lot of us are kinda getting into the swing (haha, get it?) of "combo" fair strings, which is usually like 3-6 forward airs; uairs and nairs will also combo at the right heights and can lead into stronger positions (nair just before you're going to land and ACing that ?/ uair for a conversion to a juggle trap).

I'm in the states from the 21st of July.
 

Reizilla

The Old Lapras and the Sea
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
13,676
You should go to San Japan again.

I got 2nd at a 48-man tourney yesterday. But it was a con tourney. And it was free. And there was only a prize for first. And I took Sh like to game 5. But he went Marth the first two games. And then 3-0'd me with ZSS. He also 2-0'd me 2nd round winners because it wasn't seeded. I felt like I was playing better than I probably ever have, except for when I kept sandbagging in game 1.

I miss going tourneys and having an active scene :(
 

Remzi

formerly VaBengal
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Hey guys! Long time no talk! I've been playing this game again for the past week or so, and somehow after a coming back from a huuuuge hiatus I think I'm playing better than I ever have. I'll enter something next week and hopefully have some videos (and results!) to show for it.

But anyways, hows everyone doin'? Everyone sufficiently hyped for Smash 4?
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
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Probably my favorite set from Impulse.

Swordgard and I played pretty much exactly how that match-up is supposed to go, I just ran out of time to wrap it up.

Then I accidentally CP'd myself and he knew what crouching was.

Edit: For the record, I wasn't counter'ing vs. ICs because it's been more than a year since I've had to play that matchup and I wasn't comfortable taking a risk and getting grabbed for it.
 

PEACE7

Smash Champion
Joined
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Hey guys! Long time no talk! I've been playing this game again for the past week or so, and somehow after a coming back from a huuuuge hiatus I think I'm playing better than I ever have. I'll enter something next week and hopefully have some videos (and results!) to show for it.

But anyways, hows everyone doin'? Everyone sufficiently hyped for Smash 4?
My dude **** yes! Good to hear that you are still alive, good luck at that tournament can't wait to watch matches from your marth.
 

etecoon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
5,731
Bengalz!

Smash 4 looks...a little better than Brawl was at least but I'm having a hard time getting as hyped for it as I was for Brawl and Melee, Brawl made me extremely skeptical of Sakurai's game design philosophies. I'm also not sure if I really like any of the available controllers for the Wii U, haven't yet played with the Pro Controller but the GamePad is pretty awful IMO.

Killer Instinct gave me a lot more hype, too bad Microsoft has done everything possible to make that system unbuyable
 

Remzi

formerly VaBengal
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Hey, Bengalz!
Rei! Long time no talk brotha, how goes it?

My dude **** yes! Good to hear that you are still alive, good luck at that tournament can't wait to watch matches from your marth.
Haha thanks man, appreciate the support and I'll definitely hit you up if I have vids. Hows your Marth coming along? I'm sure its pretty nasty now, you were improving fast way back when we used to play.

Bengalz!

Smash 4 looks...a little better than Brawl was at least but I'm having a hard time getting as hyped for it as I was for Brawl and Melee, Brawl made me extremely skeptical of Sakurai's game design philosophies. I'm also not sure if I really like any of the available controllers for the Wii U, haven't yet played with the Pro Controller but the GamePad is pretty awful IMO.

Killer Instinct gave me a lot more hype, too bad Microsoft has done everything possible to make that system unbuyable



Hey dude! I understand the skepticism, but even with all of Brawls flaws, I enjoyed the **** out of it, and I'm sure I'll do the same with the next one. As for the controllers, the pro controller seems nice, the different analog position will definitely take some getting used to, though. The gamepad definitely isn't the solution.

Killer Instinct looks awesome! Hearing the annoucner yell "ultra combo!" instead of just "Ultra!-Ultra!-Ultra!" doesn't have nearly the same charm to it, though. Haha. And yea, PS4 all the way.
 

Reizilla

The Old Lapras and the Sea
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
13,676
You can keep those twin kids. I have the RGV which will definitely flourish again.
 

Foodies

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Can you elaborate on the double dtilt, Shaya? When is the 1% of the time it is a good idea? I'd think that as long as both dtilts hit it would be a good idea, but perhaps there is a better move you can use after the first dtilt (that wouldn't be possible to do if you used two)? Or maybe you are saying that if the opponent is close enough for two dtilts to hit in a row, you should have used a different move in the first place?
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
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I think doing a buffered dtilt out of a dtilt (i.e. IASA etc etc) is basically always bad. Tipper on hit is a frame advantage for them if they shield drop, if you're then throwing out another move 7 frames later, it's pretty easy for better players to just ... punish you. A reminder that the second dtilt will be pushing you forward.

The 1% is when someone's shielding and you hit them from behind with dtilt. Yes they can buffer a turn around shield and destroy you but that's why you shouldn't ever do it... but at least most of the time you'll get away with that one at most levels of play.

What are you meant to do after the dtilt? Walk. Analyse the situation. Dtilt is meant to hit people at maximum range (preferably of their shield), because Marth controls the range between shield and body really well (max space dtilt on shield into DB will hit a shield dropping character), as a start. Stutter step fsmash for glory cheese.
The thing about dtilt is just the control. Punish their next action.
If their action is to hold shield, then you stand there waiting. A properly animated dtilt won't be pushing you forward (and walking backwards and just turning around negates it), so if you dtilt at the max range again then they're STILL ****ed. If you just dtilt again your second dtilt won't be well spaced, won't be applying the same pressure. Stuff like ftilt and jab (and fsmash and db/etc) are all deceptively safe on maximum range shields and Down tilt is a universal indicator for length that any Marth can feel their spacing with on reaction. So if dtilt is on max range shield and you walk back slightly, turn around again and then jab? They can't shield drop punish that easily because they won't be in range of anything after shield drop (this is why PS dash attack is the core of punishment for characters like Falco). Replace jab with anything.

If they spot dodge, then a dtilt with similar spacing mentalities is COMPLETELY SAFE. Toon Link and Falco can't just dash up smash you if you're throwing dtilts (with timing of course for their end lag) for where they'd be if they moved forwards/where their shield extends to.

If they shield drop and walk out a bit, then you're dealing with a good player. If they shield drop wait, and then shield again for the power shield (which is why double dtilt is bad against anyone comfortable with that timing) you're going to die, and are probably dealing with a really good player. Make sure you tell them they're not being sneaky and hopefully they'll get scared. Alternatively get better (moving forward yourself, dancing blade, dash grab, etc etc)

If they roll away, or have the tendency to roll away, then you react to shield drop with the assumption of rolling and just input your dash punish (or walk punish if possible). The cool thing about properly reacting to rolls is getting the direction wrong shouldn't be bad for you (bar ground room issues). If you think its a roll behind you, then instant standing pivot grabs is cool, or just walk a bit and turn around dtilt (if you're comfortable with knowing their roll lengths you can just adjust to pull this off).

People jumping are asking to die. Ftilt.

What about the other situations? OoS options or moves that are really fast (jabs or dash attacks). Character specific. As I assure you though, a well spaced dtilt isn't easy to OoS punish. Characters or players prone to try are asking for you to shield (preferably power shield it), or the "lazy way" (read: what mikeneko and ramin and everyone else including you and me do) is the immediate spot dodge. We're getting away with this and lets not pretend that people won't figure it out at some point.
 

PEACE7

Smash Champion
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Yea dude sounds good and its coming along pretty well can't complain lol i haven't attended anything in a VERY long time so i need to get on that, and yea i miss the good ol days they were wicked fun.
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
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I didn't say what airport though ;)
That's what time I arrive in LA.

I would obv love to spend some time in Texas. AS the proximity of my arrival and sktar is close though I'll probably leave it for post-sktar.
 

Nike.

Smash Hero
Joined
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SA-Town, Texas
August 15th-19th I have off for San Japan. Gonna be hype a week and we'll most likely be very active. I would highly recommend coming to tx then.
 

Reizilla

The Old Lapras and the Sea
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tyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg859999ggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg -kitty

the alamo sucks and that's the only good thing in SA
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
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Lylat is a terrible CP vs ICs anyways Jordan
Gonna have to disagree with you on this one.

I've found Lylat to consistently disrupts players' timing for their power-shields due to the slopes, Marth gains a lot of movement options through PCs, and the slopes allow you to retreat aerials further due to not hitting the ground.

It's also a stage I'm personally extremely comfortable on.
 
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