(」・ω・)」 MARS la Marf in Smash 4 (／・ω・)／

[Shaya]

You have a move that hits that lowwwwww?

 

[Espy Rose]

Like, all of them.

 

[Zano]

oh dear all that text aadded

 

[Shaya]

Become a family man Zano, it's not too late for you.

 

[GreenAce]

Idk if you guys really care but i'm actually having a lot of fun playing this character atm. I think i'm picking things up really fast. The only thing that's messing me up really is ironically execution, movement is still really foreign for me too since I have to walk and foxtrot around instead of wavedashing.

I'm still fairly serious about improving. The only reason I would give up on this is if it interfered with me improving in my game. I actually was playing really really bad at first after playing smash all night with seibrik, then after about 40 minutes I got over and actually felt like I was playing better than ever. So i'm not sure how this will go, but I like this chracter and I have some really original idea's on how to play him. Just have to get more familiar with the mechanics of this silly game.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Also, I'VE CRACKED IT... whatever it is.

As a result

I'm confident that with this image, I could probably explain the entirety of everything you need to be almost as good as MikeNeko.

So let's start.
Here's a key for my image's amazingly beautiful coloured semi transparent lines/ruler marks.
First (Purple) - Maximum reach of Marth's hurtbox while stationary
Second (Aqua) - Furthest reach of Marth's hurtbox while shielding (dat foot)
Third (Lime) - Where power shields extend to [and possibly slightly beyond]) and the reach of a pretty healthy shield.

What does this image tell you?
It shows you what spacing really is.
It gives you a logic for what you're doing and how you're manoeuvring to maximise safety.

It is also a strong example of how much space is given or restricted to you by your various animations. Bodies and extremities skew and stretch in all types of weird and wonderful directions for EVERYTHING YOU DO. On another positive point is that as a clearly viewable sphere, it gives me enough to help explain to you the peculiarities of Marth's hitboxes on various moves, and their implications.

Marth's Hitboxes
Similar to the shield, hitboxes are spheres centred at a certain point. From the image above, the furthest reach of Marth's hurtbox (his foot) is significantly shorter than the maximum reach of the shield. Pretending for a second that this is a hitbox, by that logic the maximum horizontal reach of a move comes only from a centre point.

When it comes to nearly every move in the game, hitboxes of moves overlap; in Marth's case the game prioritises our non-tipper hits to register in areas of overlap. Assuming hitboxes ontop of each other in the way they are in Brawl (look them up if you're not sure), the maximum "area" of no overlap will be coming towards the "corners" (in other words the "foot" area of a hitbox will be the most area available for tippering). Every one of Marth's moves has an area both horizontally/vertically which will have the tipper hitbox most protruding - and I tend to call them auto tippers. I know, from practise, where the auto tipper areas of Fair, Bair, Uair, Dair, dtilt and dsmash are. The spacing for tipper fsmashing people on platforms is easy as well. A general rule here is that the most protruding tipper point exists in the opposite direction in which it travels. For fair/bair, this means I space/swing at specific vertical heights to auto tipper (with the first and last hits of fair hitbox being what you hit with), for dair and uair you pick horizontal positions to "easily" tipper [or in the case of uair, avoid tippering] them.

Back to the centre point. Knowing where the centres are for moves are important. In Marth's case, it is rarely directly aligned with his sword. This is a contrast to Meta Knight. Meta Knight's down tilt hitbox is centred on the ground, and hence its maximum horizontal range matches with the animation. In Marth's case his hitbox for down tilt is slightly higher, at his furthest reach of his sword animation, there is no hitbox - the maximum reach comes above the sword, giving it's auto tipper area above the ground and being quite a mimic of Down Smash in this regard (this is easy to see with how MikeNeko uses dtilt). What does this difference (re: MK) mean? It means that MK's down tilt can reach 'below' the maximum range of a shield and shield poke our feet. What does this mean for Marth though? It means our down tilt will be hitting people's shields at their maximum range when perfectly spaced. Consider this as "****" in it's purest form.
For our aerials, the hitboxes aren't directly aligned with 'bones' but adjusted. This gives Marth disjoints that do not align with our sword (in other words, we're getting bull **** disjoints). This means that at the maximum horizontal reach of frame 4 of fair, I'm just 500 light years further away from hurtbox than the maximum reach of frame 5 and 6. Frame 7 has the same distinct property.
This means that spacing at those points gives us the maximum safety.
Down tilt hitting shields rather than feet means our maximum range for dtilt is actually longer against shield's than MKs. I'm starting to feel I prefer this.
If you want the best example of a hitbox not centred onto a bone and what effects it has, look at Zero Suit Samus' Uair animation with hitbubbles. It has a "fake" MASSIVE disjoint because of this property.


Actually spacing...
Knowing that there are, in this small scenario, 3 different distances of interaction. It's important to know that for every swing you make, you need to have a reason and goal for that swing.
When I swing my sword, I think "hitting shield". When I play with any character I'm trying to space with, if I'm trying to hit the maximum extremities of shields, I'm very unlikely to be punished (I love Sheik and Falco). When I'm hitting someone I'm consciously choosing to do so - they're in lag or I'm gambling on some commitment which I believe I won't be punished on. For the most part, the commitment part is all I feel I get punished for and everything else just comes naturally.
The beauty of forward air is that when spacing for frame 4 and 7 hits (at the right horizontal/vertical displacements) aiming for maximum reaches of shields, there are these slightly longer horizontally reaching places in frame 5 and 6 which based on my opponent stopping his shield I'm actually "reaching" towards in the case they extend.
This same beauty comes in Neutral air in a more "obvious" form. When spacing for nair, the first hit being shorter than the second - you aim it for their shield or their protruding body parts from hitboxes, but not where they actually "are" at the time. The second hit being longer ranged means that at the same spacing, assuming they didn't "protrude", I'm still reaching and potentially hitting them. I call this 'mechanic' "Carrot and Stick" (poor Horse) strategies. This beautiful nair thing is broken against just about everyone until higher levels of play where people become confident with power shielding. Forward Air is the higher-level play replacement that is a lot more ickly with timing but affords the extra safety against shields. I'd just like to note that C+S Nair is still ****, using it appropriately for beating everyone's moves. Nair used properly only loses to shield. It's still worth learning because it allows us to beat through every character with more range but less disjoint than us (it's reaaaaaaaaaaally good against ZSS, DK, ROB and Wolf)

So back to shields for a second. Beautiful shield animation.
The fact that there is such a huge distance difference between not doing anything and shielding, there must be some really obvious things that I've never really thought of that I can abuse right?
Not shielding is over powered.
Because suddenly I have a significant area in front of me that if I were to shield, would suddenly "catch" any incoming hitboxes that weren't even close to hitting me; giving me this amazing POWER SHIELD.
Furthermore, there are situations where people are naturally aiming for a maximum reach shield or they happen 'accidentally'. Take getting hit on the shield by MK's second hit of dsmash. If you stay in shield, the SECOND down smash (I know its sickening to think there's an MK that bad) will still hit your shield, but in another situation you're sitting without shield, that Dsmash whiffs and you get to punish them for a whiff. Crazy. AbUSE IT.

Power shielding is a tool of spacing. Knowing how much extra horizontal space exists that is hittable, there's the vertical alternative as well. It's known as CROUCHING. Crouching reduces our vertical height by about 60%. His head reaches about where his knees are in the shielding animation. And when you shield from a crouch, all that space above you and also in front of you still becomes your POWER SHIELD ZONE.

Walking coupled with blinking (fast shield drops to reshields, and the same thing while walking) gives you a ridiculous horizontally reaching POWER SHIELD ZONE.
For example
Walk -> shield (sliding) -> unshield (still sliding) -> a little bit of forward walking (your momentum carries over) -> reshield
is BROKEN on Marth because of his walk.

I've said all of this for years. Like for yeaaaaaars. And people would thin that it was just Mikeneko (Or other notable people at shielding spacing, Zoning, Ps'ing) having 'Perfect reflexes'. It's not that at all. Finally someone else notices this!

I do this, but with MK, . Except my character's crouch isn't as cool.

 

[ぱみゅ]

You were pointing that for years? So I was always telling people to grab to force people not to shield at all (and why I think Wario's Bite is an amazing move), but didn't point it out on your guide.

 

[Shaya]

It's stuff that's been brewing in my head for about a year now. The more I think about it, the more I realise even more intricacies that are just follow through from previous logic.
This suddenly occurred to me while playing against MKs in my recent tournament in both winners and graind finals. I'm at the ledge and MK's trying to space tilts or smashes so I can't get back on stage. With the fear of fair/nair spacing reaching from the ledge with invincibility, they tend to space further back.
So I land on stage. Hold shield. I get pushed back to the ledge. Next time, I jump on, don't shield, and that forward smash whiffs me and I now power shield the dsmash or rush down (yes MK has a gazillion better things here, but these are the options I'm dealing with in tournament, haha ) The same scenario works with landing just outside the range of things and not shielding.

 

[Exdeath]

I'm still lost at this not being among the most basic elements of Brawl.

No wonder everyone's ledge traps are so awful.

The only thing that's messing me up really is ironically execution, movement is still really foreign for me too since I have to walk and foxtrot around instead of wavedashing.

Overall Brawl requires a lot of execution. Wave dashing is for .

 

[Shaya]

I'm still lost at this not being among the most basic elements of Brawl.

No wonder everyone's ledge traps are so awful.

It really is.
In the sense that I don't think anything I say now would not make sense to anyone who's played the game before. I think the same would make sense to anyone 3-4+ years ago.
You know about it, but you don't know what it means to you. You know about it, but you aren't really thinking about it while playing.

The power of power shields breaks this game and the only means of improving at it is by fully enveloping every little thing.

 

[Exdeath]

It really is.
In the sense that I don't think anything I say now would not make sense to anyone who's played the game before. I think the same would make sense to anyone 3-4+ years ago.
You know about it, but you don't know what it means to you. You know about it, but you aren't really thinking about it while playing.

The power of power shields breaks this game and the only means of improving at it is by fully enveloping every little thing.

Words are mere symbols and are useless without the perceptions and subsequent understanding of the reader.

I still think that non-power shielding is the most overrated option in Brawl and is arguably the greatest manifestation of skill gap in the metagame along with buffering and movement.

 

[Shaya]

Shielding is amazing.
But it's a result of power shielding existing that is quite a lot of it's strength.

Shielding things at the right place means something previously not easy to punish is suddenly punishable (simple example is obviously shield grab, but what about something that reaches vertically?). Like, getting hit by frame 4 of fair on your shield instead of 5 means that's literally 1 extra frame for your opponent.
But yeah, the manifestation of skill gap (I like the term) is shielding less but remaining as safe as you were previously. Shielding less means that more of your shield time is power shields. Shielding less means that your shield stays stronger hence you're even "safer" from shield pokes.
Blinking is something I've been practising a lot as of late. And its a match up by match up based timing for it. And once you get used to adjusting it you really are getting best of everything (movement + buffering + shielding less). I tend to not even mind getting hit while blinking because my successful power shield will be getting me a significantly better punish (IMO, because marth is broken) then that back air or jab hitting me that I'm buffering smash DI out of because it's just apart of my blinking tech skill.

I totally agree with you on buffering/movement being another big thing.

 

[GreenAce]

I've noticed that shielding is really strong in this game. I wanted to let people whiff moves and go in to punish or gain momentum, but moves recover to fast to punish most of the time.

Also do you guys know how to always grab the ledge instead of randomly whiffing through it. Is it just spacing or can your force this to happen.

 

[Exdeath]

I've noticed that shielding is really strong in this game. I wanted to let people whiff moves and go in to punish or gain momentum, but moves recover to fast to punish most of the time.

Also do you guys know how to always grab the ledge instead of randomly whiffing through it. Is it just spacing or can your force this to happen.

Holding down or away from the ledge prevents you from grabbing it, which may be causing your whiffing issue.

 

[Zano]

If Nike ever asks you to play league while he's drunk, don't.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I would anyways.

 

[Zano]

he carried us pretty hard.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Probably got more CS than all of you.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Marth with a D-Tilt that hits on frames 3-6 and ended on frame 15.

And Marth had a spammy Dair like Mk.


Actually, just give all Mk's better Frame data to Marth.

Better yet.

Imagine if Marth could pull out Tiaras and throw them like a boomerang.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Shaya, I've seen the light. From randomly seeing Akagi a year ago cause of you after we were all sobbering up, I got bored months back and read Kaiji during the Mahjong game. With that over, it's now Hyoudou's son... but then I watched the anime yesterday... and read more manga...... and goddamnthisissodamngood

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Adh5SI6dsXA

 

[Ereth]

Is there a marth tournament results thread?

 

[Zano]

nope, you'd have to look through results for marth yourself.

 

[Ereth]

Someone should make one of those...

 

[Zano]

I don't think anyone is willing to go through every single tournament results thread just to find the placings of one character, but if you want to, go ahead. If a marth does well outside of the known ones, someone would make a big deal out of it anyway, otherwise it's just pretty standard.

 

[Ereth]

I mean, people would just post their placings

 

[1PokeMastr]

Simple.

Mikeneko/ Mr.R/ Leon.
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Everyone else.

Done.

 

[clowsui]

who cares about marth tournament results? every single marth out there other than Mikeneko/Mr-R/Leon (honorary mention MikeHaze) sucks ****.

best marth doesn't matter until someone gets wins. period.

things to get better at that all mid-level marths don't actually do properly >50% of the time:

C+S Nair
f4 Fair, f8 fair
Dtilt + hit confirms
Consistency of Strings below 60
Reactionary ledge trap (a la Mikeneko)
Shield spacing
Effective movement
Option selects

 

[Sinister Slush]

Also, attend tournaments.

 

[Zano]

didn't mike just get 4th at a recent socal tourney? Why are people talking like he doesn't even do well anymore just because of apex?

 

[clowsui]

I put Mike as HM

 

[Lord Chair]

Not being as good as the Holy Trinity doesn't mean you're bad.

Thus, no one ever said he wasn't performing well.

 

[Shaya]

The marth holy trinity is
fair, jab and pivot grab

and dtilt is the anti-christ

 

[NH Cody]

DB is the third, not jab >_>

 

[Shaya]

I'm talking about hitbox complementation.


DB1 flows better with dtilt and whatnot as they both are extending forward. The other three are distinctively close range bubble makers.

 

[KillLock]

http://smashboards.com/threads/dsc-stuff.336679/ checkit

 

[Sebby]

what is C+S nair?

 

[Shaya]

what is C+S nair?

It's something you never saw coming.
As you full hop neutral air'd into it.

 

[Lord Chair]

Pls don't declare something as niche as jab holy. Just because proper application of something gives you wood doesn't mean it's up there. Really that's the kind of trinity I'd see a Marth board regular make, shame on you.

 

[Shaya]

You don't understand my holy trinity.

We're neither Roman nor Greek originated.
We come from this River.
It's a big one.

I like how everyone's okay with pivot grab though. BUT NOT JAB.
I remember when you said something similar when people were hyping up down tilt pre-mikeneko. maybe...
*rage*

 

[Lord Chair]

I've been hyping dtilt since 2009. I didn't bother commenting on pivot grab because I felt it was obvious enough it didn't belong there.

DB-Fair-Uair. Proper uair usage will be the new wave and not much will change after that. I like your Arabic approach though.