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ZSS General Discussion

Tesh

Tesh

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People have no idea how big TX is. Bio, Shlike, Paw and Dakpo all retired and TX is HUUUUUUGE and Dojo doesn't even live in one of the major cities and is/was also retired.

The real pivotal moment in game 1 was just that Dojo caught an armor piece and took an early lead. Otherwise, the other MKs couldn't get salem away from them and spent the rest of the game coming back from a large percent or stock lead.

People just need to plank until those things fade away and/or get better at catching. ZSS is annoyingly powerful when she has a lead because a small mistake can net her another 30-40 damage in strings.
 
Darky-Sama

Darky-Sama

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Planking is the last thing I would recommend. ZSS can keep those things active as long as she needs to. That's the whole point of recatching them before they stop moving. Keeping them bouncing would make them last through the whole match. ZSS wouldn't have to approach until she's good and ready. If they got a percent lead (which is unlikely considering armor pieces) than sure. But planking when she has the pieces isn't smart at all. Early stage spikes if a piece does hit.

I do agree about learning to catch them though. That would help. loool
 
Tesh

Tesh

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Approaching with glide attack always worked for me, but Salem really has his early gameplan worked out very nicely. Its impossible to theorycraft based one experience with any other ZSS now. He is the only one at that level.
 
Darky-Sama

Darky-Sama

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Also, whenever that percentage lead is gained and a character wants to start planking, ZSS can stand at a proper distance from the ledge and down+B, delay the attack portion of it and it'll practically cover the planking zone for a stage spike if they've exceeded 30%. The only problem is that she can get gimped that way as well. The range on it will likely trade hits or beat out any character who isn't Meta Knight.

She'll also have her second jump to time her recover if necessary to avoid being gimped. But it really isn't a safe option. Not that it's something she needs to rely on. It's worked 9/10 times for me against plankers (when not on Halberd, that is).
 
Browny

Browny

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Tesh said:
People have no idea how big TX is.
Click to expand...
Randomly popping by to say that people have no idea how big Australia is, and I find it funny when texans think that their state is 'big'. More than half of Australias states are considerably bigger than texas, and one of them is over 4 times as big.

Just sayin, Texans dont know what big is ;)

Does anyone know what characters Salem ran into? Im interested in how he fared matchup-wise. I cant help but compare it to other low-tier characters who manage to plow through big tournaments and high tiers, but ultimately all it takes is 1 bad matchup from some mid-tier to end it.
 
Tesh

Tesh

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Its just silly when people auto assume someone has loads of matchup experience from living in this state. Also no one auto assumes Aussies have matchup experience because you have no relevant players. :smirk:

@ matchups
He beat someone named Squid in pools first round then :dk2: (cable) :marth:(mikehaze) :lucas: FAE :wolf:(Kain) :marth:(Mr R) :metaknight: (Otori) :metaknight:(Dojo) :marth:(Mikeneko) :metaknight:(m2k) :metaknight:(m2k)

Not terribly diverse, but what could you really expect him to run into? Aside from ICs, which he did luck out a little avoiding them (especially since I recall another ZSS getting wrecked on stream by 9B despite everyone in USA thinking she wins the matchup). There was only one notable Falco there. I find it quite funny that FAE beat __X__ and lost to Salem round 1. __X__ is quite notable for beating Nick Riddle multiple times. Can you imagine if __X__ got that 4th seed and fought Salem? I expect Salem would have won anyway though.

edit: bracket dyslexia
 
Xzax Kasrani

Xzax Kasrani

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quik i hope you continue to improve and get better and show everyone your good enough to compete with salem. you can do it, dont give up after coming so far.
 
Supermodel From Paris

Supermodel From Paris

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Quik you're awesome. Stop it. :O

Not getting top 8 or even top 32 at a national is nothing to be ashamed of. There are amazing players that didn't make it post round 1 losers. You did fine. Keep trying and you can improve. If you feel like you've plateaued, start watching Salem, NR, and V play and incorporate their tricks into your gameplay, or just keep playing a lot. Only quit trying if you aren't having fun anymore.

Also, "just hold shield vs zss" is the new "dtilt sonic"

@Tesh: I think salem's more lucky to have avoided dabuz or ADHD, who might have been able to take him out because Diddy and Olimar can seriously **** themselves. ICs was easily doable for Salem though. On the other hand, I would have expected M2K to win too and he didn't. Salem was playing really well on Sunday.
 
Chronodiver Lokii

Chronodiver Lokii

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(the whole don't get gimped thing was a line we pushed on people a few years back. We all get gimped. It sucks but whatever xD)

Have we got past the whole 'just shield zss' stuff yet? XD

Quik, don't quit! Use this as motivation if anything
All the zero suits have to step it up now too :3 wooooooo I have no time or wii to improve at this game but I still want to!

:phone:
 
F

fkacyan

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The only person who has ever said "just shield" was me and I was always trolling, lmao.

The character is fundamentally flawed and has a lot of hard counters but she's not THAT easy. I just like getting people riled up because, honestly, a deeper understanding of the character on a community-wide basis wouldn't be good for her, and she's fun to watch.
 
Supermodel From Paris

Supermodel From Paris

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You aren't the only person to say that. lol

Anyway, defensive play (PS/hold R/hard camping) does slow ZSS down but it doesn't shut her down completely, she's too fast and has too much reset potential. If she doesn't like the situation she can very quickly get out of it and change it.
 
ぱみゅ

ぱみゅ

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Let them believe they only need to shield against ZSS. That's what allows her to get a grab with her terrible whip.
 
F

fkacyan

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http://youtu.be/ysQ6xJ3Zmo0?t=12m47s

"Your ZSS gimmicks are only that; gimmicks." - Pierce7d

On the real, Salem is flashy but I really hope people don't try to emulate his style because as they get used more and people figure out his recovery style it'll be less and less effective.
 
PEACE7

PEACE7

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@ V155 i will try and get a video of it as soon as i get it down its not a 100% thing but I believe it can be done.

Some good can come out of all the ZSS hype, more players bigger chance of learning new things and further advancing her.

Also Quik please stop been emo bro :( your ZSS is amazing all of this should motivate you to get even better. When the subject of best ZSS's come up your name surely is on the list every time you are an awesome player and should keep at it. We are not always going to succeed at everything but hard work and perseverance pays off.
 
C.J.

C.J.

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Supermodel From Paris said:
Mikeneko was doing exactly the right stuff, and started winning in game 3/4, but Salem just won anyway after changing how he was playing. Perfect shielding slows ZSS down a lot but it doesn't shut Salem down completely... which is what I've always said about it. >_>
Click to expand...
Yeah... not really. He did some of the right stuff but there was a lot of things he wasn't punishing that he definitely could have and there were a lot of holes in his play when Salem was offstage. Not to mention tripping vs ZSS is more detrimental than vs many characters (silly dsmash) and his MU inexp clearly showed in how consistently he got hit by utilt from AD.

Ramin's first 2 stocks G2 are a MUCH better representation of the MU.
 
Silent Beast

Silent Beast

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I drove some of the Japanese players back to the apartment where they were staying after the tourney. When we got there, we found RAIN, 9B, Mikeneko, and Kakera playing doubles. All four were playing ZSS, with the tags 4Vex, 4VEX, 4vex, and 4VEx.
 
Cassio

Cassio

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I know a lots happened since April, but I thought Id share this conversation I had with Salem once awhile back since it was kinda interesting.

[4/16/2012 8:54:18 PM] cassio_of_the_stars: salem
[4/16/2012 8:54:20 PM] cassio_of_the_stars: how did you get good
[4/16/2012 8:54:23 PM] cassio_of_the_stars: using only wifi
[4/16/2012 8:54:28 PM] Salem Kitteh: By playing basic brawl.
[4/16/2012 8:54:31 PM] Salem Kitteh: 3v1s is serious.
[4/16/2012 8:54:42 PM] cassio_of_the_stars: lol
[4/16/2012 8:54:46 PM] cassio_of_the_stars: thats not true is it?
[4/16/2012 8:54:52 PM] Salem Kitteh: Well
[4/16/2012 8:54:55 PM] cassio_of_the_stars: you cant even do a 3 v 1
[4/16/2012 8:54:57 PM] Sparky: Their usually laggy?
[4/16/2012 8:55:00 PM] Salem Kitteh: Yeah, it's true.
[4/16/2012 8:55:15 PM] cassio_of_the_stars: is that really how you got good?
[4/16/2012 8:55:20 PM] Salem Kitteh: Yeah.
[4/16/2012 8:55:25 PM] cassio_of_the_stars: not ladder of playing good players?
[4/16/2012 8:55:31 PM] Salem Kitteh: Nope.
[4/16/2012 8:55:41 PM] Salem Kitteh: I just basic brawl and attempt to win 3v1s.
[4/16/2012 8:55:43 PM] cassio_of_the_stars: and youre 100% serious?
[4/16/2012 8:55:51 PM] Salem Kitteh: Yes.
[4/16/2012 8:55:55 PM] cassio_of_the_stars: alright
[4/16/2012 8:55:59 PM] cassio_of_the_stars: well there you go sparky
[4/16/2012 8:56:12 PM] Salem Kitteh: But of course, there's always a lot more to the story than thattttt~
[4/16/2012 8:56:23 PM] cassio_of_the_stars: wellll what is it
[4/16/2012 8:56:31 PM] Sparky: Ok so Basic brawl
[4/16/2012 8:56:34 PM] Salem Kitteh: I use to play Melee.
[4/16/2012 8:56:49 PM] cassio_of_the_stars: before brawl?
[4/16/2012 8:57:10 PM] Salem Kitteh: Yeah, Even though I had no one to really play with I still tried getting good at the game.
[4/16/2012 8:57:35 PM] Salem Kitteh: I usually played a lot of all-star mode and tried, yet again, an attempt to win 3v1s.
[4/16/2012 8:57:59 PM] cassio_of_the_stars: vs cpus?
[4/16/2012 8:58:10 PM] Salem Kitteh: Yeah.
[4/16/2012 8:58:32 PM] Salem Kitteh: I played a lot vs cpus, since my brother stopped playing me cause I started beating him all the time.
[4/16/2012 8:58:44 PM] cassio_of_the_stars: but I remember you on the OTF, you were good but howd you get from good to great?
[4/16/2012 9:00:21 PM] Salem Kitteh: Mmm... well, I don't exactly know, I mostly just applied offline training mode stuff to online and tried making it work.
[4/16/2012 9:00:31 PM] cassio_of_the_stars: ahh
[4/16/2012 9:01:08 PM] Salem Kitteh: I had to learn all kinds of timing and stuff, like... 1-10 kinds of wifi timing.
[4/16/2012 9:01:52 PM] cassio_of_the_stars: well theres your lesson sparky
[4/16/2012 9:01:56 PM] Salem Kitteh: I've learned just about all of them, hence why my reaction time is amazing.
[4/16/2012 9:02:11 PM] cassio_of_the_stars: howd that help you offline tho?
[4/16/2012 9:02:48 PM] Salem Kitteh: You have to remember, I did everything offline first, even though I had nobody to practice with yet offline.
[4/16/2012 9:02:58 PM] cassio_of_the_stars: oh
[4/16/2012 9:03:10 PM] Sparky: When I play offline I feel a lot more in control than wifi :/
[4/16/2012 9:04:18 PM] cassio_of_the_stars: yeh, makes sense
[4/16/2012 9:04:20 PM] Salem Kitteh: Wifi teaches you all the different timing, it teaches you to be patient, when to rush things and etc, I treat the speeds on wifi as peoples reaction time offline in a way.
[4/16/2012 9:05:10 PM] Sparky: I sort of understand
[4/16/2012 9:05:23 PM] Sparky: So basic Brawl and win 3v1?
[4/16/2012 9:06:05 PM] Salem Kitteh: I guess you could just simply try doing that, but I try to set a goal while doing them, which is, don't die.
[4/16/2012 9:06:17 PM] Sparky: But theres items?
[4/16/2012 9:06:25 PM] Salem Kitteh: And?
[4/16/2012 9:06:50 PM] Sparky: Whats a random fireball gonna do for me in no items?
[4/16/2012 9:07:18 PM] Sparky: or giant mushrrom
[4/16/2012 9:07:51 PM] Salem Kitteh: They're just there.
[4/16/2012 9:07:53 PM] Sparky: or shrink mushroom? just gonna show me they won cuz of lucky item spawn
[4/16/2012 9:09:01 PM] Salem Kitteh: I don't get affected by such, so neither should you, besides, you can practice glide tossing with these items and learning little timing on things like when the mushrooms effect end.
 
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