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Wifi is one of the best ways to improve.

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Steel

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Yeah, wifi sure made ally a terrible player :/

Also

Air dodges are definitely punishable
Perfect shielding isn't there that's true, definitely not hindering enough to make wifi useless though
Delayed attacks? Well that's a given for any online play
Dsmash? What? I can punish MK's dsmash on wifi if that's what you are getting at
The hell is a longsmash habit?
You can definitely punish rolls and you can definitely turtle on wifi
 

Alus

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Yeah, wifi sure made ally a terrible player :/

who said this?
Also

Air dodges are definitely punishable

Perfect shielding isn't there that's true, definitely not hindering enough to make wifi useless though.clearly enough to make some projectiles more excellent than they actually are

Delayed attacks? Well that's a given for any online play
1/2 a frame (*exaggeration*) of lag is not going to decide whether you have actually blocked or not.
Dsmash? What? I can punish MK's dsmash on wifi if that's what you are getting at That is not what i am getting at =) i might have difficulty explaining this.
The hell is a longsmash habit?
When you play the hit and run game with quick,well ranged smash attacks.
You can definitely punish rolls and you can definitely turtle on wifi
Yeah, if you play against that one opponent like, all day...knowing him (or her) in and out.
see quote :D
 

fear17

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Wifi is a piece of trash I just play to have a little fun thats it if I lose or win it really does not mean nothing
 

Nysyarc

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*facepalm*

I'm pretty sure Steel was being sarcastic with the Ally thing...

As for the rest of it... the other person is lagging just as much as you are. Besides, if you don't think it's a good way to practice... don't practice with it.

Edit: Calling it a piece of trash is a bit harsh... I agree it could be a lot better but it's still very useful for reasons Steel explain in the OP.
 

Zankoku

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1/2 a frame (*exaggeration*) of lag is not going to decide whether you have actually blocked or not.
I've never encountered any (non-LAN-based) online game with as little as half a frame of lag. What game are you playing?
When you play the hit and run game with quick,well ranged smash attacks.
That's when you play the "you're not doing yourself a favor" game by hitting him with projectiles because smash attacks don't outrange those.
Yeah, if you play against that one opponent like, all day...knowing him (or her) in and out.
Or if you're at least a decent-level player who can adjust to input delay and knows the options available to your opponent's character. It's not difficult to watch for certain habits and patterns, and I don't see how Wifi would make it much harder than live play.
 

Alus

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I've never encountered any (non-LAN-based) online game with as little as half a frame of lag. What game are you playing?

That's when you play the "you're not doing yourself a favor" game by hitting him with projectiles because smash attacks don't outrange those.

Or if you're at least a decent-level player who can adjust to input delay and knows the options available to your opponent's character. It's not difficult to watch for certain habits and patterns, and I don't see how Wifi would make it much harder than live play.
1.Why, oh WHY, are you taking my posts at face value? Even after I have stated that I exaggerated?

2. It is hit and run! And do you think that this tatic will be used alone? I think not.

3. Does this not defeat the "purpose". This means that you are using WHAT YOU ALREADY LEARNED!!! and that is not learning.
 

Zankoku

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1.Why, oh WHY, are you taking my posts at face value? Even after I have stated that I exaggerated?
I don't even understand what point you were trying to make originally. Netplay between two people in the same state usually runs on at least 2 frames of input delay, and in the case of fighter games many people don't even accept 4-frame delay. Half a frame of delay is about 8 milliseconds. You might get that much delay pressing the shield trigger, waiting for the Wii to register it, and seeing it outputted on the screen. Then again, you might actually get more delay than that. Your use of hyperbole was an utter failure that didn't even succeed in making a valid point.

2. It is hit and run! And do you think that this tatic will be used alone? I think not.
And is this tactic somehow unviable when in live play? The only difference is that you are now able to play on reaction, but so can the other player. If you don't enjoy this kind of play, I suggest you simply find someone else to play with.

3. Does this not defeat the "purpose". This means that you are using WHAT YOU ALREADY LEARNED!!! and that is not learning.
Practice is, apparently, pointless, because it is merely emphasizing what you already know.
 

Zankoku

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I've never experienced anything as low as 6 frames, but I suppose it's possible (average runs about 10-15, 20+ across the country, 40+ when dealing with another country/continent). Fighter games with superior netplay support as low as 1-frame delay, but that option typically isn't viable unless directly connected or on a wired LAN.
 

Alus

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I don't even understand what point you were trying to make originally. Netplay between two people in the same state usually runs on at least 2 frames of input delay, and in the case of fighter games many people don't even accept 4-frame delay. Half a frame of delay is about 8 milliseconds. You might get that much delay pressing the shield trigger, waiting for the Wii to register it, and seeing it outputted on the screen. Then again, you might actually get more delay than that. Your use of hyperbole was an utter failure that didn't even succeed in making a valid point.


And is this tactic somehow unviable when in live play? The only difference is that you are now able to play on reaction, but so can the other player. If you don't enjoy this kind of play, I suggest you simply find someone else to play with.


Practice is, apparently, pointless, because it is merely emphasizing what you already know.
1. I am trying to say that it is unfair to compare a Net play that is very noticeable in input delay, to a netplay that rarely has any input cases that are worth complaining. I mean like.... how many fighting games did you have to "Adjust" for input lag? Sorry for the confusion...

2. Is a lucario spamming aurasphere, B-roll and Fsmash viable? The one difference that says that you may make choices on reaction make a BIG difference.

3. yeah, practice is ALL you can do. But sadly you cannot learn the game through wifi. =(
 

Zankoku

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1. I am trying to say that it is unfair to compare a Net play that is very noticeable in input delay, to a netplay that rarely has any input cases that are worth complaining. I mean like.... how many fighting games did you have to "Adjust" for input lag? Sorry for the confusion...
Several. I don't get any lower than 4 delay playing against someone in California, and I've had to deal with 7-8 delay playing with someone in South America. And this is on a game that has GOOD netplay. 6 frames is a 10th of a second. That's half of the average person's reaction time. It's plenty noticeable by that point.

2. Is a lucario spamming aurasphere, B-roll and Fsmash viable? The one difference that says that you may make choices on reaction make a BIG difference.
Yes, it is, actually. Didn't Azen win a tournament last year doing exactly this?

3. yeah, practice is ALL you can do. But sadly you cannot learn the game through wifi. =(
I'm not sure why you say this.
 

AranOcean

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I'd have to agree. Wifi creates access to play and practice against an endless amount of people around the world. Yes, there's a lag, but we've managed and will continue to do so. Great read.
 

KRDsonic

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Wifi personally hurts my play since I have someone to play with offline whenever I want, and switching back and forth between offline and online just gets me frustrated. Also, the fact that there's no pressure when playing on wifi causes me to play more lazily, which becomes a habbit. I can see wifi helping others, but not me.

Zen is right offline you deal with people yelling all around you picking on your every mistake and sometimes even trying to screw with your game
I'd say that's true for quite a few people. I've seen so many people suicide because of the pressure from having a lot of people watching them play during a tournament. I guess I'm weird though, I play better under all of the pressure. In comparison, casual wifi for me seems useless.
 

Steel

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I, and a ton of other good players got good by playing seriously over it. Stop spreading your falsehoods in my thread.
 

Steel

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I'm just going by your initial opinion of this when you posted it a page ago. You're obviously still trying to induce that, so I'm telling you to go away unless you have something to actually contribute.

You say the game can't be learned through wifi. Some people are good learners and some aren't. It's how people are.
 

JigglyPunch

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I'm sure touraments are great for practice, but I don't like to drive for an hour and pay $15 just to get pwned and call it practice.
 

HolyNightmare

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Wifi is the best way to practice match-ups, a player that play both wifi and offline tend to do better then a player who stricly play offline because they know what to expect.
 

Remzi

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Very true, nice thread.

Some people still haven't come to accept that Wi-fi DOES help a ton.
 

Nysyarc

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I've gotten 500% better with Ike just by playing online over the last week with guys from my clan. Play as often as you can and try to play against people who are better than you a lot. Once you get used to the slight input lag it's just like playing offline except you always have people to play with.
 

Ricky

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Wifi is the best way to practice match-ups, a player that play both wifi and offline tend to do better then a player who stricly play offline because they know what to expect.
Heh yeah I couldn't agree anymore with you. Before I played Wi-Fi I wasn't any good. I took up many things FAQS, Tips, etc, and of course playing through online to improve. Although most of the time playing I'd usually lose 90 percent of the time it was quite the learning experience... I had to be a step ahead of everyone act first, to be better. After a while getting use to not having lag was awkward I admit. But yeah learn your controls and online/offline and you'll do fine. I'd love to thank everyone in my FC List for owning me all that time. :p

BTW, awesome thread.
 

Volt7x

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When me and my sister are bored online, we fight each other for practice but it's a little different with the lag (I've completely adapted to lag at this point, I don't even notice it anymore). Playing offline seems a lot easier afterwards for some reason.
 

urfat

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When me and my sister are bored online, we fight each other for practice but it's a little different with the lag (I've completely adapted to lag at this point, I don't even notice it anymore). Playing offline seems a lot easier afterwards for some reason.
i agree that playing offline is easier after wi-fi, because you have to time things perfectly and be one move ahead of you opponent to account for lag. i also must admit to being hard headed in my game, point being if my opponent beats my move with a move i think is lame or "pu$$y" i'll keep coming at him with the same dam move but with varied timing, but wi-fi's lag has kinof forced me to change my ways because the timing will be screwed regardless; but as for not noticing the lag... i cant agree
 

Oimetra

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to be honest, i think my offline playing has served me tons more than online, but i havent played too much online anyway
 

Apollo$

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Wi-fi helps you fight all types of skilled level characters and see them pull off things you never thought were possible, I also like how the input delays helps you get a even better reaction time.
 

Yawnbored

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I can agree with this, as it can get you open to seeing ideas that you hadn't previously thought of that are honestly good ideas. It can also let you fight a larger variety of opponents besides the ones that are simply in your local area as well, which can mean you can see far more diversity amongst similar characters and the like. And even with certain things such as spacing/timing being off, you can still see things like say Marth's Fsmash and see which distances are about right (I'm still off because I'm so used to Melee Marth). So even with Wi-Fi's problems, it can at least let you be creative with some ideas. Good connection or not, and unlike training mode, the target actually can fight back.

However, it can also start a lot of cruddy habits as well. For instance, I see far too many Fox's the have come to the conclusion that Dair -> Usmash is unblockable because it works so well on Wi-Fi. I've seen too many DKs that take advantage of lag from the steam coming out of him when he charges a punch. I've seen far too many Ness' try to spam PK Fire like it's the best projectile, so I know it can start as many bad habits as good ones. Not to mention that Wi-Fi often rewards people with poor reflexes, and punishes you for going off of sound cues or frame counting, most noticeably when the lag is inconsistent. If it were consistent with its framerates, I'm pretty sure less people would complain about it.


Honestly, it's quite double-edged. I suppose the topic title isn't incorrect in saying that it is "one of the best ways," but certainly not a way that works for everyone. I like it for thinking of ideas and wondering if they actually work. If I feel like I'm just playing with a lagmaster or the connection is too bad, I don't like it, win or lose.
 

professor mgw

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People often say that going to tournaments is the best way for a player to improve. While tournaments can help significantly, I'd like to disagree on a certain level.

Wifi is given a bad stigma. People say it doesn't help at all, is useless and if anything, just makes you worse. This is pretty well.. untrue. Honestly, I've learned more and gotten better from wifi than I have going to the many tournaments and smashfests I've attended in real life.

Now, I'm not talking about "With Anyone." That thing is utter garbage. If I use it I always pick MK and easily outplay the low level players because well.. 999/1000 times I have much more experience than them. I play it when I'm very bored and have no one else to play. Let's be honest, With Anyone is geared towards the casual player. You won't get better playing here, especially since the lag is often much worse than a simple 1v1.

Wifi gives you the proper match up experience you need to be able to go to a tournament and know what to expect from each character. It lets you delve into your character more to discover more options that he or she may have in certain situations. It makes you smarter. When I play wifi I feel like I have to be one step ahead of my opponent because I must account for the input lag.

If you want to get the most out of wifi, find someone who is way better than you and is willing to **** you repeatedly. Don't play a player way worse than you that will allow you to get away with a ton of stuff that normally you would get ***** for in tournaments. If you're able to find a high level player that you can learn from you will quickly improve and soon be able to compete on a high level as well (though don't expect to overcome your mentor most of the time, he gets better as well and since he may have essentially taught you how to play the game (depending on just how much he taught you) he probably has a good idea of what you are going to do in each situation).

Don't let wifi games be your only practice. Because once you go out to the real world and play your timing may be very screwed up. You want to practice your control before and after wifi in TRAINING MODE. You don't have to play against a CPU, just make sure your control is perfect. You want to try and get to a point where you don't make mistakes (not talking mental mistakes, but physical mistakes so that your character does exactly what you want them to without fear of messing up). I'm talking down to the pixel, if you want Marth to be able to tipper a fair every time then aim for a certain part in the back ground of the stage and just Short Hop Fair repeatedly and try to hit it. A lot. And I mean a lot. Practice makes perfect. Do it every day if you can. Make your character look very smooth. Having excellent control over your character is very important.

Wifi combined with training mode is what brought me and a lot of other rising top players (not saying I'm a top player) to the tournament scene. Without it, I wouldn't have been able to compete because I lack transportation to be able to go places near every day to play. By all means, tournaments and talking to top players will help substantially. But that's on the weekends (usually not every weekend), get your **** down during the week and learn your match ups. Though if the input lag/visual lag is terrible, don't bother :laugh: :mad088:

Discuss...

agreed.
in wifi i met alot of people who(just for the record areen't better than me)helped me get better by helping me tweak at certain areas.:)
 

theONEjanitor

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wifi is great for learning match ups and stuffs
but if you ONLY play on wifi, and then try to get into a live tourney you can only go so far.

i'm pretty sure the guy who says he can punish MK's d-smash online is full of **** though.
i mean you might be able to punish it with peach's jab or something if you predict it exactly
but the small downtime of the move + input delay pretty much makes the move unpunishable online.

some other moves are like that too.
 

Arora

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this thread does bring out all the positives of wifi
but i think smashfests and tourneys help more
but you did get me thinkin about a lot things i never thought about before
 

DivineBlade

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When I saw that the title said Wifi is the best way to improve. I was about to say this is utter bull. Until you pointed out to friendly matches not brawl anyone, then I said oh ok. Wifi is a great way for you to improve but usually it depends still on your connection. I try my hardest to predict my opponents next moves but 50/50 i'm normally right. This is a setback based on my laggy connection. But I have to say it depends on who you battle as well.

BTW, i fear to question the authority of the SWF administrators, but don't you think that we had waited a little too long for the Friend Finder to be uploaded? A great way to contribute to this thread is to mention this as well as incorporating ladders in FF. I'm just saying im sick of waiting for matches on MLG gamebattles.
 
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