Why do we NOT ban Ice Climber Chain Grabs?

[swordgard]

Disgusting.





I think what would be cool is CG no more than 30% damage (give a take 4%) on the opponent (with pummeling). After the 30% is done, the IC could not go into a consecutive unavoidable grab:
- Grab release (or air release) into another grab after the 30% has been reached
- CG into another grab

Now if you release and the opponent tries to space away or attack or shield and gets grabbed again that's fine. But you wouldn't be able to do an unavoidable grab immediately after the 30% has been released.

That's the most damage an attack can do to someone (I think D3's full charged Fsmash or DownB is 30%) so it would be no different than getting KOed by an Ike/D3/Snake smash at low percentage.

If you get grabbed at 60% or 90% well you'd be dead anyways real soon the CG wouldn't matter

So, why should we abide to that despite everything we told you that proves this is not banworthy.

Seriously stop acting like a scrub, stop whining, learn to play the matchup. Also, you said 30% is the most most attacks will do? Falcos cg on D3 is disgusting in terms of damage inflicted. Not only this, but why does dealing a cg to snake should be worth less than dealing it to say jiggs(30% is completely arbitrary and is very relative in term of damage dealt to other char in terms of lifespawn).

 

[Hyesz]

^ You keep forgetting to say that only Scrubs get grabbed.

 

[Kitamerby]

^ You keep forgetting to say that only Scrubs get grabbed.

ADHD is a scrub now?

 

[fullynick]

ADHD is a scrub now?

He probably did something scrubby in order to get grabbed?

 

[orange/xd]

ICs have yet to dominate tourneys

 

[solecalibur]

^ You keep forgetting to say that only Scrubs get grabbed.

Really now? M2k was defeated by lain once you know?
What a very interesting statement to say
Lets watch a match of a pro IC vs Pro [Insert character here] 9 times out of ten I see them get grabbed once or hell watch a match with out IC's Im sure you will see at least 5 grabs what is this term scrub you are talking about?

 

[BluePeachy100]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZwD7V8SwZw

Don't ban CGs.

 

[JOE!]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZwD7V8SwZw

Don't ban CGs.

sooooo, how is this in defence of keeping them?

All i saw was an ike get his *** handed by being grabbed a few times

 

[BluePeachy100]

It was an example of some CGs that weren't perfect.

 

[LanceStern]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umS6W4UuOKM&NR=1

How about ADHD (won a tourney beating m2k and ally with diddy) getting walked and dried across bf?

For disclaimer, he won that set with some great spacing and splitting ICs. The set is really fun to watch actually, especially #1

 

[LanceStern]

So, why should we abide to that despite everything we told you that proves this is not banworthy.

Seriously stop acting like a scrub, stop whining, learn to play the matchup. Also, you said 30% is the most most attacks will do? Falcos cg on D3 is disgusting in terms of damage inflicted. Not only this, but why does dealing a cg to snake should be worth less than dealing it to say jiggs(30% is completely arbitrary and is very relative in term of damage dealt to other char in terms of lifespawn).

Well I stopped arguing a while ago. I know what I have to do in the matchup, I just think its' cheap is all. And I threw a solution out there. I'm known to choose arbitrary numbers usually with "3" in them oddly enough.

 

[Staco]

I guess what happens if an IC player learns to shield DI ...
Then Anti doesnt have to make a spacing mistake to get grabbed.

 

[BluePeachy100]

The fact of the matter is, people make mistakes, CG's aren't always perfect. Also, you have to work hard to master those things. What gives anyone the right to take away from the only real bread and butter the ICs have, especially considering how much work it takes to get there. No matter how gay the results may be, and how redundant this may sound, ICs CGs CAN lead to death form 0 percent, but it's as simple as spacing better and NOT. GETTING. GRABBED!

That's just what it is. Brawl is generally campy anyway, what should it matter, you're just playing to win anyway, aren't you?

 

[DMG]

1. How much "skill" or practice it takes to infinite flawlessly does not matter. How hard something is to do successfully only becomes an issue if it is understood to be harder than humanly possible.

2. It doesn't matter if people mess them up.

Do I need to bring back the Big Blue letters? Or get the OP to edit a Huge Wall of Debating rules into his post?

 

[BluePeachy100]

1. Really? Is all of what you said necessary? If that's the case then the infinite cape glitch shouldn't be banned.

2. How doesn't it matter if people mess them up? You were just stating it's only an issue if it's not humanly possible, if people can mess them up, then is it not humanly possible to do them perfectly?

I say if there's no record of an IC main EVER messing up on a CG then it shouldn't be banned. Also, there has yet to be an IC winner of a national tournament.

Why just the ICs CGs? Why is so much attention given to them? Because they are "gay"? What about Falco's laser? Diddy's banana?Any other thing that gives a character a needed edge? META KNIGHT, for crying out loud. They're all classified as "gay" because of your sad personal preferences. Why not motion to get rid of everything else I've stated? Is it because it's all AVOIDABLE? Is that the case?

If you have trouble with IC's chaingrabs, learn the matchup according to your main.

If you have trouble with Falco's lasers, learn the matchup.

Diddy's banana's, learn the matchup!

Meta Knight, there are enough players for there to be no excuse why you DON'T know the matchup.

It's all basic, but you all are trying to be difficult, take away the CGs, take away every IC main to be frank. If you're going to motion this, ban eveyrthing else that gives every other character in the game their edge. Chaingrabs, part of the Ice Climbers' metagame, get used to the fact. Lasers, part of Falco's metagame, Diddy's bananas, part of his metagame. Face the facts, they're gay, but know this, Brawl in general is a gay game, based around gay camping, and overly-weighed defense. Don't go around with a whiney, excuse for wanting something banned, and then not putting up a legitimate arguement abotu this. This is directed at everyone who wants the chaingrabs banned.

Are the Ice Climbers dominating across the world? No. Have they yet won a mjor tourney? No. Stop wasting so much time tryign to get one thing banned, and focus on actually trying to get around it, and progressing your matchup game. It falls on the responsibility of the person facing the ICs.

 

[DMG]

1. How hard something is to perform does NOT affect whether it should be banned or not. It ONLY affects that decision if the thing in question is understood to not be humanly possible to execute. MK's IDC is banned not because of how easy it is to do, but because of what impact it would have on the metagame. The IC's CG's shouldn't be allowed OR banned based on how hard it is to CG with them. Since they are easily humanly possible, the question at that point is whether their infinites impact the metagame in a large enough way to warrant a ban. If their Infinite was as easy to perform as Dedede's Infinite, or Falco's CG, it would not suddenly make it "more broken" just because it is now easier to do. Now if the CG's were understood to be humanly impossible to do, then that would affect the scope it has on the metagame since Humans could not perform it.

2. It doesn't matter if people mess them up. You can't argue for the CG to stay based on "Oh well people mess them up" or "It takes a lot of skill to do them correctly". We've already established that they are humanly possible to do, and that the skill argument holds no water for either side. Also, when determining whether something should be banned or not, we are assuming it is done flawlessly within human realm. Take MK's IDC for example. Let's say we allowed it, and that people everywhere mess it up quite a bit. Does that actually affect how broken it is? No. If something is in the realm of being humanly possible to do (and not even on the extremely hard side of the spectrum), then it's reasonable to expect the thing in question to be done flawlessly when considering whether it is too powerful or not. Otherwise, if you don't consider something at its full potential, how are you going to ultimately determine whether it is broken or not without a doubt? MK's IDC is obviously broken, but if we assumed that it was done at a level less than optimal, we might not be able to really see how broken it is. The same goes for their infinite, if you aren't assuming that it is done 100% at all times, then you aren't gonna be able to properly evaluate whether it is broken or not.



I don't care what side people are on, just stop using invalid arguments. Anything involving how "hard" or how "skillful" it is to CG has been established previously many times that the argument holds no water, and anything involving people performing them below optimal level also holds no water. Regardless of how you feel.

 

[swordgard]

1. How hard something is to perform does NOT affect whether it should be banned or not. It ONLY affects that decision if the thing in question is understood to not be humanly possible to execute. MK's IDC is banned not because of how easy it is to do, but because of what impact it would have on the metagame. The IC's CG's shouldn't be allowed OR banned based on how hard it is to CG with them. Since they are easily humanly possible, the question at that point is whether their infinites impact the metagame in a large enough way to warrant a ban. If their Infinite was as easy to perform as Dedede's Infinite, or Falco's CG, it would not suddenly make it "more broken" just because it is now easier to do. Now if the CG's were understood to be humanly impossible to do, then that would affect the scope it has on the metagame since Humans could not perform it.

2. It doesn't matter if people mess them up. You can't argue for the CG to stay based on "Oh well people mess them up" or "It takes a lot of skill to do them correctly". We've already established that they are humanly possible to do, and that the skill argument holds no water for either side. Also, when determining whether something should be banned or not, we are assuming it is done flawlessly within human realm. Take MK's IDC for example. Let's say we allowed it, and that people everywhere mess it up quite a bit. Does that actually affect how broken it is? No. If something is in the realm of being humanly possible to do (and not even on the extremely hard side of the spectrum), then it's reasonable to expect the thing in question to be done flawlessly when considering whether it is too powerful or not. Otherwise, if you don't consider something at its full potential, how are you going to ultimately determine whether it is broken or not without a doubt? MK's IDC is obviously broken, but if we assumed that it was done at a level less than optimal, we might not be able to really see how broken it is. The same goes for their infinite, if you aren't assuming that it is done 100% at all times, then you aren't gonna be able to properly evaluate whether it is broken or not.



I don't care what side people are on, just stop using invalid arguments. Anything involving how "hard" or how "skillful" it is to CG has been established previously many times that the argument holds no water, and anything involving people performing them below optimal level also holds no water. Regardless of how you feel.

Im pretty sure logic is not a valid argument in this thread anymore, have you seen how many people are still questionning if they should be banned limited.



Lancestern, i dont care if you feel the infinite is cheap. I feel it isnt. If you want to convince other people you need something more than just appeal to emotions. Bring up some arguments >.>

 

[LanceStern]

There's no ethos here swordgard

 

[meepxzero]

People dont fight ice climbers the proper way.... Everyone i play regularly have me figured out and know what to do to win aka (Candy, Boss, Hat and Hova when hes trying). THats a few from my region ive listed. Theyve played me in countless friendlies and know how my character works.

Ull see when the metagame evolves more and people figure out how to fight ice climbers the infinite will only be an issue for people who are bad.

We just had an ic infinite banned tourney and I lost to PS who i always beat. He was even saying that it was easier to see my habits when I couldnt infinite. lol hes gonna beat me legit one of these days because he totally ***** me when it was banned =\.

 

[Gnes]

People dont fight ice climbers the proper way.... Everyone i play regularly have me figured out and know what to do to win aka (Candy, Boss, Hat and Hova when hes trying). THats a few from my region ive listed. Theyve played me in countless friendlies and know how my character works.

Ull see when the metagame evolves more and people figure out how to fight ice climbers the infinite will only be an issue for people who are bad.

We just had an ic infinite banned tourney and I lost to PS who i always beat. He was even saying that it was easier to see my habits when I couldnt infinite. lol hes gonna beat me legit one of these days because he totally ***** me when it was banned =\.

*Co Signs*

I think once the novelty of the character runs out people wont complain as much.
Im naturally good against icies .

 

[JOE!]

@ skill argument:

as other have said, this should not be a factor as long as it is do-able.

They honestly arent that hard, relying on sound and animation ques or so I've heard.

This means that people can and will do them given a bit of time to figure it out, making this skill argument void in that it can and will be done by some players.


as for whether or not it's gay or warrants a ban, another argument is to simply not get grabbed.

However, against a good IC player, their mission is generally to grab you, and they have mindgames toned to have you fall into a grab when you least expect it, or simply desynch into one. It may prove to be highly unlikley to accomplish this is some MU's, or stages where a character must close in on the IC's...

 

[Boxob.]

If it's inescapable, it should be at least limited. Having an infinite amount of damage dealt from the exploitation of a single simple spacing error is broken. You can't really say it isn't. People can screw it up, yeah, but people can also not screw it up, and that's screwed up.

In the end, errybody in the club's gettin' screwed.

If it is by ANY means escapable though, it should be permitted to the fullest, unless a technique develops to make it inescapable, or unless it already IS inescapable. That makes sense, ya?

 

[BluePeachy100]

That's still not the point, DMG. You don't realize yourself that because people can mess up on them, the brokeness of the CG, or anything else is limited. All of this is reliant, the CG, IF performed perfectly is "broken" or "gay" as people say. But understanding the fact that IF people mess up, which they will, it shouldn't be banned because it's not 100% guaranteed to work.

Once again, I bring this up, if it were that broken, IC's would be the best character in the game. IC's would be dominating the world, winning every tournament. But since people know how to get around it, how to play against them, and how to win it shouldn't be banned. You still haven't addressed anything else I said. Why should it just be the IC's that have limited options? Take away the CG and WHAT exactly are the IC's left with?

I'm guessing, you people want all of the CGs to be banned because of fairness, you think they're unfair, broken, whatever you want to call it. But, I ask you, is it fair to the IC's to take away their greatest asset? It seems rather selfish to tyr to limit one character for the sake of many. Which, by the way I may add, it hasn't effected anyone in a harshly bad way.

Also, Boxob. there haven't been any incidences(to my knowledge) of anyone abusing it to absurdly high damage, at most I see 115% before the kill. Although, I can understand it being limited, banning them is just too far out of the question in my book.

 

[Boxob.]

Also, Boxob. there haven't been any incidences(to my knowledge) of anyone abusing it to absurdly high damage, at most I see 115% before the kill. Although, I can understand it being limited, banning them is just too far out of the question in my book.

I don't mean like, time stalling, that'd be so hard to keep up lol. But if you get grabbed under 20 percent, chained to 115 and then Usmashed. Well, personally I feel almost as if I've been cheated, cause I have to work for my kills, as does everyone else who isn't an iceclimber chaingrabbing everything. Not that they're easy to land, or to execute, but the fact is, it's unfair. I don't see how anyone could look past that simple fact. It doesn't matter how hard it is to do.

Let's look at it this way real quick. Bowser Fsmash does... a lot of damage. But for good reason, the ability and opportunity to execute and land the move properly is much, much more difficult than learning and performing the chaingarbage for an = amount of damage. It can be started off of one grab/ Just one. How often will you be grabbed in a match? Unless you're under the stage stalling or some crap, probably more than once or twice. The risk reward ratio of these grabs is simply disproportional. That alone, at the the very least, warrants limited use of the move.

That's how I see it, anyway.

 

[mountain_tiger]

The way I see it, if you're skilled enough to consistently perform infinite chaingrabs, you deserve to win.

 

[lain]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZwD7V8SwZw

Don't ban CGs.

Wow that was absolutely horrible. A bad ike horribly mis-spacing everything, and an IC that ****ed up the grabs like 12 times and still won by shield-grabbing.

It's like if I showed you a match of T.Link getting nado-spammed over and over and over again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umS6W4UuOKM&NR=1

How about ADHD (won a tourney beating m2k and ally with diddy) getting walked and dried across bf?

For disclaimer, he won that set with some great spacing and splitting ICs. The set is really fun to watch actually, especially #1

Uhhhh Meep won that match bucko... I don't even know what getting walked and dried means.

 

[theunabletable]

If it's inescapable, it should be at least limited. Having an infinite amount of damage dealt from the exploitation of a single simple spacing error is broken. You can't really say it isn't. People can screw it up, yeah, but people can also not screw it up, and that's screwed up.

People can screw up their spacing, yeah, but they can also not screw it up, and that's screwed up.

I arbitrarily decree, then, that spacing be banned.

Don't screw up your spacing and you won't get grabbed.

 

[Boxob.]

People can screw up their spacing, yeah, but they can also not screw it up, and that's screwed up.

I arbitrarily decree, then, that spacing be banned.

Don't screw up your spacing and you won't get grabbed.

Er, yeah?

Get back to me when you have an actual argument, one that makes at least a little sense.

If you go in for an attack, with a large majority of characters, it is impossible to not get grabbed the entire match. I mean unless the IC's player really sucks THAT bad at seizing such a frequent opportunity.

 

[theunabletable]

^Name a few of the higher tier viable characters that can't attack without getting grabbed.

 

[Vermanubis]

I tend to agree. While the ICs CGs do take a deft hand and a good amount of skill to execute, the problem lies within its payoff. I'd classify it as broken simply because the result of grab is not parallel with the skill required to execute it. I guess my main problem is that it's very true that one very easily made mistake equates to death. True, ICs mess up on grabs and don't desynch properly, but the fact of the matter is that you have to rely on the incompetence of your opponent to survive rather than your own competence.

I've played very few truly talented ICs users, but when I did, I was pretty set on pro-ban. Playing under that kind of pressure is just ludicrous to me. Having to outperform your opponent in almost every way, whereas they have to outplay you as far as getting a grab.

I know it'll never be banned, but I can't say I wouldn't revel in joy if it was.

 

[teluoborg]

Er, yeah?

Get back to me when you have an actual argument, one that makes at least a little sense.

If you go in for an attack, with a large majority of characters, it is impossible to not get grabbed the entire match. I mean unless the IC's player really sucks THAT bad at seizing such a frequent opportunity.

Ok, if you screw your spacing 3 times you're dead.
But IF the IC screws his chaingrabs 3 times you're not dead.

**** happens to everyone, saying "if you make a mistake you'll be punished" does not help the discussion.

 

[LanceStern]

My mistake Lain that supports me even more

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umS6W4UuOKM&NR=1

**** happens to everyone, saying "if you make a mistake you'll be punished" does not help the discussion.

It's not mistake = punish it's mistake = 1 entire stock. I don't see why people don't get that.

 

[Yink]

Honestly Lance I think they should keep their CG.

Why not just limit the amount of it? That way they can still use it to KO but not totally abuse it (if that's what you want to call it).

Why get rid of it? It's a tactic that helps you win.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

My mistake Lain that supports me even more

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umS6W4UuOKM&NR=1



It's not mistake = punish it's mistake = 1 entire stock. I don't see why people don't get that.

Except that people mess up. The best players mess up occasionally. Whether it's just a small timing error, or MikeHAZE yelling in their ear throwing them off. CP Frigate.

 

[LanceStern]

When watching the ADHD vs. Meep or Lain/Ally or Meep/Ally or even M2k vs. Lain matchup I must say it was very fun watching them try very hard to break up the ICs and space. while at the same time Lain/Meep did everything to get that grab.

it leads to tense matches sometimes.

Doesn't matter if they mess up (Meep and Lain mess up a few times) it's still broken. I need more solid numbers like what that guy did a few pages back get the number of grabs and how many of those led to death.

Watch this video too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7bE9ll9Xg4
In this, Mango was pretty much outplaying Armada on FD, but what killed him was the chain grab on EVERY stock. The tactic in general is cheap.

Not to say Meep/Lain or any other ics are bad it's just it's not a fair tactic and is on the verge of broke. It can be infinite. I would limit it to 30% or maybe even 40% like I said a few pages back

 

[Praxis]

That's still not the point, DMG. You don't realize yourself that because people can mess up on them, the brokeness of the CG, or anything else is limited. All of this is reliant, the CG, IF performed perfectly is "broken" or "gay" as people say. But understanding the fact that IF people mess up, which they will, it shouldn't be banned because it's not 100% guaranteed to work.

No, YOU are missing DMG's point.


Is it physically feasible to, with human reaction time, do this perfectly throughout a match? Yes.

When discussing banning something, you have to look at the highest level of the metagame.

Thus, you have to assume the player can and will do it perfectly, because it can and DOES happen.

And for the record, I'm currently anti-ban though my feelings aren't particularly strong either way.


And to the person who pointed out that Lain beat Mew2King, Mew2King and Lain played again in bracket at the same tournament and Mew2King played much better and crushed him.

 

[Furbs]

because we haven't banned metaknight

 

[Praxis]

Watch this video too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7bE9ll9Xg4
In this, Mango was pretty much outplaying Armada on FD, but what killed him was the chain grab on EVERY stock. The tactic in general is cheap.

Not to say Meep/Lain or any other ics are bad it's just it's not a fair tactic and is on the verge of broke. It can be infinite. I would limit it to 30% or maybe even 40% like I said a few pages back

1) Define "cheap".


2) I've already explained to you why it is not feasible to enforce a percentage limit. It's almost impossible to really keep track of how much damage you're doing (especially with stale moves changing the numbers constantly) especially when you're focusing on doing the CG, and you have to worry about how to let them out without hurting them if you CG too close to the number. This is a really, really, straight up stupid idea.

 

[mikeHAZE]

Except that people mess up. The best players mess up occasionally. Whether it's just a small timing error, or MikeHAZE yelling in their ear throwing them off. CP Frigate.

IT WASN'T IN HIS EAR!!!!!!!!!!!

cheats

 

[Llumys]

If you're playing something competitively, the word cheap should never be used.