Why do we NOT ban Ice Climber Chain Grabs?

[mikeHAZE]

Watch this video too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7bE9ll9Xg4
In this, Mango was pretty much outplaying Armada on FD, but what killed him was the chain grab on EVERY stock. The tactic in general is cheap.

not cheap:


Welcome to fighters

 

[Turazrok]

because we haven't banned metaknight

Please don't....
Neither are ridiculously broken to the point of everyone picks IC's or everyone picks MK.

 

[Yink]

1.)When watching the ADHD vs. Meep or Lain/Ally or Meep/Ally or even M2k vs. Lain matchup I must say it was very fun watching them try very hard to break up the ICs and space. while at the same time Lain/Meep did everything to get that grab.

2.)it leads to tense matches sometimes.

3.)Doesn't matter if they mess up (Meep and Lain mess up a few times) it's still broken. I need more solid numbers like what that guy did a few pages back get the number of grabs and how many of those led to death.

4.)Watch this video too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7bE9ll9Xg4
In this, Mango was pretty much outplaying Armada on FD, but what killed him was the chain grab on EVERY stock. The tactic in general is cheap.

5.)Not to say Meep/Lain or any other ics are bad it's just it's not a fair tactic and is on the verge of broke. It can be infinite. I would limit it to 30% or maybe even 40% like I said a few pages back

1. They did it to get the grab because they want to ENSURE a victory. I bet if you had a fairly easy way to get you a win you'd use it. That's how it goes in competition.

2. Matches get tense all the time even when the IC's aren't playing

3. LOL. Lots of things in this game are broken.

4. Lots of characters CG on every stock. Saying a tactic is cheap isn't a good reason for an arguement. Many tactics in Brawl are considered cheap as well. As someone said, define "cheap". It varies greatly from person to person

5. I don't see how you can limit it down to percentages. As I said even doing numbers of chaingrabs in a match would be better. (though it would still be hard to keep count)

 

[Llumys]

Many things are theoretically broken.

Ice Climbers have the potential to be broken.

They are not broken.

 

[LanceStern]

Well to Praxis, that's just an attempt at limiting it because someone asked me how I would do it. I think honestly that's feasible but I didn't put TOO much thought in it.

And I can't get around saying cheap, but the main idea is ONE GRAB = DEATH. That's the main idea, that's the main argument.

After watching more matches it's definitely fun and I can see why it's such an integral part of ICs game (they just about NEED it to win) and yes you can not get grabbed, but it's still a "cheap" tactic.

Like just watch the Armada/Mango video I posted. Mango was winning that one game pretty thoroughly stock for stock, but he kept getting grabbed and lost the stock most of the time because he got CGed to KO percentages. That doesn't light something on the inside of you?


Again I'm pretty much done arguing... I think everything has been said, clarified, resaid and reclarified.

 

[swordgard]

Well to Praxis, that's just an attempt at limiting it because someone asked me how I would do it. I think honestly that's feasible but I didn't put TOO much thought in it.

And I can't get around saying cheap, but the main idea is ONE GRAB = DEATH. That's the main idea, that's the main argument.

After watching more matches it's definitely fun and I can see why it's such an integral part of ICs game (they just about NEED it to win) and yes you can not get grabbed, but it's still a "cheap" tactic.

Like just watch the Armada/Mango video I posted. Mango was winning that one game pretty thoroughly stock for stock, but he kept getting grabbed and lost the stock most of the time because he got CGed to KO percentages. That doesn't light something on the inside of you?


Again I'm pretty much done arguing... I think everything has been said, clarified, resaid and reclarified.

And i love how your still avoiding the fact that this is not game breaking and that "cheap" is an opinion.

One grab=one stock doesnt clearly show an argument, it just represents facts. You have to explain WHY that is broken. Also that is a very distorted version of facts since 1 grab isnt always 1 stock since we have prerequisites.

 

[fullynick]

I think it's cheap that D3 can land ONE fsmash on you and you lose a WHOLE stock

I think it's cheap that you can grab the edge to stop other people from doing it and they lose a WHOLE stock

I think it's cheap when MK splits up the ice climbers and kills nana, and sopo is useless for a WHOLE stock

I think it's cheap when I recover as snake and my opponent gets ONE GRAB which leads to me losing a WHOLE stock

I think it's cheap when my opponent wins and I lose....

 

[Boxob.]

Nothing in a fighting game is 'cheap' because what is broken usually get's sifted out.

I don't understand, there are plenty of other, escapable, but highly sustainable and effective ways to deal damage to people with ice climbers that don't involve inescapable events. ****, most of them still involve grabs!

Inescapable chain grabs, should be limited to a certain number of inescapable instances. That's not hard to enforce, and it isn't something hard to screw up.

I'm glad I don't play this stupid game anymore lol.

 

[Boxob.]

I think it's cheap that D3 can land ONE fsmash on you and you lose a WHOLE stock

I think it's cheap that you can grab the edge to stop other people from doing it and they lose a WHOLE stock

I think it's cheap when MK splits up the ice climbers and kills nana, and sopo is useless for a WHOLE stock

I think it's cheap when I recover as snake and my opponent gets ONE GRAB which leads to me losing a WHOLE stock

I think it's cheap when my opponent wins and I lose....

Too bad the risk reward system, when applied to all of your stated instances, are completely reasonable. If you get hit by a DDD Fsmash, you deserve to lose like, eight stocks. Seriously.

Splitting them up, with meta or any other character, is a challenge, one in which rewards you with a reasonable amount of positive results. You get to deal without their insane damage output for an amount of time. Sometimes, you kill nana. You're still left with a damage dealing, player controlled, completely viable character (At least for racking in some damage)

I think if you get cypher grabed, you're ********, or you did something wrong.

It's unfortunate that you hate losing so bad, because I could only imagine that someone with such poor argumentative skills could do nothing but lose.

 

[Dabuz]

why is this still a topic that comes up?


it has been discussed even since melee that some people think ics CGs are broken and cheap, but every time a topic about it is created, the same arguments prove the ic's CGs are not even close to ban worthy, and the same amount of stupidity is created, there seriously should be a rule that creating a topic about banning IC CGs is infractable at this point because it is always a waste of time accomplishing nothing

 

[fullynick]

Too bad the risk reward system, when applied to all of your stated instances, are completely reasonable. If you get hit by a DDD Fsmash, you deserve to lose like, eight stocks. Seriously.

Splitting them up, with meta or any other character, is a challenge, one in which rewards you with a reasonable amount of positive results. You get to deal without their insane damage output for an amount of time. Sometimes, you kill nana. You're still left with a damage dealing, player controlled, completely viable character (At least for racking in some damage)

I think if you get cypher grabed, you're ********, or you did something wrong.

It's unfortunate that you hate losing so bad, because I could only imagine that someone with such poor argumentative skills could do nothing but lose.

I wasn't serious.....

i don't believe in 'cheap' and i don't play much brawl

also the IC chaingrabs are dependent on a similar risk vs. reward scheme. As an IC player you have to take large risks and depend on mistakes by your opponent in order to get a grab in the first place.

*insert dig about YOUR ability in an aspect of life here*

 

[Boxob.]

why is this still a topic that comes up?


it has been discussed even since melee that some people think ics CGs are broken and cheap, but every time a topic about it is created, the same arguments prove the ic's CGs are not even close to ban worthy, and the same amount of stupidity is created, there seriously should be a rule that creating a topic about banning IC CGs is infractable at this point because it is always a waste of time accomplishing nothing

Dabuz my dude, you just think that cause your character has the one grab gayer than IC's.

<3

 

[Boxob.]

I wasn't serious.....

i don't believe in 'cheap' and i don't play much brawl

also the IC chaingrabs are dependent on a similar risk vs. reward scheme. As an IC player you have to take large risks and depend on mistakes by your opponent in order to get a grab in the first place.

*insert dig about YOUR ability in an aspect of life here*

You're telling me that one grab being equal to the lose of one stock is fair? What else is on the same level of absurd risk reward that's still allowed in standard play?

 

[BluePeachy100]

No, YOU are missing DMG's point.


Is it physically feasible to, with human reaction time, do this perfectly throughout a match? Yes.

When discussing banning something, you have to look at the highest level of the metagame.

Thus, you have to assume the player can and will do it perfectly, because it can and DOES happen.

And for the record, I'm currently anti-ban though my feelings aren't particularly strong either way.

And to the person who pointed out that Lain beat Mew2King, Mew2King and Lain played again in bracket at the same tournament and Mew2King played much better and crushed him.[/QUOTE]

While I agree that MAY be feasible, there's always still room for error. That's all I'm trying to say, because there is a margin of error, it shouldn't be banned.

But even at the highest metagame, Lain vs Mew2King as a perfect example, in the match presented, Lain DID in fact mess up. Assuming the highest metagame is perfection is asinine, because there will never be a player who doesn't make a sigle mistake.

If anything, shouldn't everything be averaged, of course it seems the metagame doesn't progress greatly when put that way, but factoring in mistakes also helps to improve it in the long run.

And to the person who pointed out that Lain beat Mew2King, Mew2King and Lain played again in bracket at the same tournament and Mew2King played much better and crushed him.

Just to further my previous points.

 

[Cold Fusion]

You're telling me that one grab being equal to the lose of one stock is fair? What else is on the same level of absurd risk reward that's still allowed in standard play?

Gimping? Many characters have no hope of survival.

 

[fullynick]

You're telling me that one grab being equal to the lose of one stock is fair? What else is on the same level of absurd risk reward that's still allowed in standard play?

Here's one for you:

Metaknight has an absurdly low level of risk for the possible rewards he can attain.

Metaknight has extremely low recovery on all moves, decent power, and is difficult to KO due to having a great recovery.

Ice climbers have to take huge risks to even stand a chance of grabbing someone who *knows how to avoid being grabbed*

Edit: yes. i'm telling you it's fair. Prove me wrong

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Most characters have viable options to attack while avoiding being grabbed.

Lucario can aerial camp all day, Peach can float out of grab range, Snake can camp, diddy has bananas, etc.

The only characters I can think of off the top of my head that get decimated by the CG is Fox, Sheik, Captain Falcon, and Ganondorf.

Falcon and Ganon are designed bad, so there isn't much people can do for them.

Fox has to camp lasers are run away all day since most of his approaches don't work well against the climbers.

Sheik can Down-B to fix her problems.

Outside of these four, three if you count Sheik/Zelda as one character, the CG doesn't break any match-ups so badly that it's play IC or you lose.

 

[mikeHAZE]

You're telling me that one grab being equal to the lose of one stock is fair? What else is on the same level of absurd risk reward that's still allowed in standard play?

marth on falco


lol..

 

[ShadowLink84]

marth on falco


lol..

Ganondorf vs anyone

 

[DMG]

Wario vs DK.

 

[Kitamerby]

You're telling me that one grab being equal to the lose of one stock is fair? What else is on the same level of absurd risk reward that's still allowed in standard play?

Anyone vs. Sonic. ololololol


Pikachu on spacies.

 

[Kinzer]

^^

Wrong (when not talking about a cypher-gimp, otherwise include G&W if they're stupid).

It's not a grab.

It's a DTilt.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What is cypher-gimp?

 

[Gangsta_inc]

What is cypher-gimp?

Grabbing Snake's up B so he can no longer recover.

I just don't understand why everyone hates IC infinite, If you don't like it play gayer.
If you have trouble doing that, then that is your fault. There is error always, and moreover this is the key reason why Smashers should only stay to smash and not things like MvC2.

Talk about the unfairness of infinites over there and get laughed at while Magneto proceeds to destroy your life bar. And over there you have the an equal or less amount of chances to overcome the infinites there.

 

[Praxis]

ZSS hard counters Wario because ZSS can zero death him out of a grab.

Refute my logic.





Here, I'll help you. Any reasonable person would point out that ZSS's grab isn't that good and Wario has all the tools necessary to avoid it easily, and thus the matchup is not swung in ZSS's favor, even though he has no way to prevent ZSS from trying to set it up.

Wait a second...

 

[kackamee]

ZSS hard counters Wario because ZSS can zero death him out of a grab.

Refute my logic.





Here, I'll help you. Any reasonable person would point out that ZSS's grab isn't that good and Wario has all the tools necessary to avoid it easily, and thus the matchup is not swung in ZSS's favor, even though he has no way to prevent ZSS from trying to set it up.

Wait a second...

Lol, same with Yoshi

 

[Deleted member]

ZSS hard counters Wario because ZSS can zero death him out of a grab.

Refute my logic.

Your logic is bad because...straw man arguments are dumb?

You're not thinking before you post if you thought that was a good idea somehow.

 

[.Marik]

Lol, same with Yoshi

Get Pivot-Grabbed son.

But yeah, Yoshi's ChainGrabs are overhyped in some aspects.

 

[Kitamerby]

Lol, same with Yoshi

Yoshi has an amazing dashgrab and pivot grab that severely hampers Wario's approach game. Yoshi's grab and ZSS's grab are not comparable except for the fact that they both suck oos.

 

[Praxis]

Your logic is bad because...straw man arguments are dumb?

You're not thinking before you post if you thought that was a good idea somehow.

Meh I was posting in like ten tabs. You're right that it's a strawman, but seriously, I'm arguing with LanceStern.

A bad logical fallacy is at least better than what he's presenting as evidence. I mean, he used the word "cheap". xD


I say we extend Godwin's Law to cover the term "cheap" as well as Hitler and Nazis. First person to use that term in an argument loses.

 

[1048576]

Nah. I'd just point out that the primary means to winning at any game is to use tactics that provide the most benefit for the least cost. In other words, play cheap. This applies to smash, halo, basketball, job interviews, and walking (even though the latter two aren't really games)

I used to get annoyed when people would punish a connected rest in FFA. I thought it was cheap. Frankly, it is cheap. However, this tactic can be shown to have a reasonable counter. It doesn't break the game, and the fact that it's cheap should encourage others, not prevent them, for using it.

BTW, the counter is to set a precedent that if they mess with you after you land a rest, you're going to impose mutually assured destruction on them

 

[DMG]

Yoshi's grab is slightly better than ZSS's, but it doesn't actually hinder Wario's approaching game that much. I've gone over this with Bwett before a few times and we both think that realistically Wario can usually avoid Yoshi's Grabs while still approaching.

Also something interesting to note is that Yoshi's Infinite on Wario doesn't work until 60%+.

 

[theunabletable]

A bad logical fallacy is at least better than what he's presenting as evidence. I mean, he used the word "cheap". xD

How is the word cheap any different than "gay"?

 

[solecalibur]

Stay on topic children

What are our options here?

Not ban CG for IC's.
Stop CG after certain %
Stop CG after certain # of grabs


Any others ideas?

and I dont wana hear
We should stop this thread become I'm an IC main
or
LULZZOMGIHURDULKEIMEATKNIGHTHESHOULDBEBANFURT
we already debated this and its settled like it or not wait till next year

 

[orange/xd]

No limits except it has to end after 300% to prevent stalling imo

 

[Smoom77]

I just wanted to make an opinion that may be a fact, not sure though.

I read somewhere that the Ganon matchup is 100-0 apparently. Because of chain grabs. That isn't true. Desynced blizzards beat every thing that Ganon can dish out. If the Ganon match up is 100-0 BECAUSE of chaingrabs, then EVERY matchup would be 100-0 because chain grabs are the same on each character.

Please troll me. And correct everything I say.

 

[Cold Fusion]

The match-up is that terrible because literally everything the IC's have nullify all of Ganon's options.

 

[takeurlife2]

considering the power shielding system in this game, the argument of "run away and poke" is invalid. In theory, any poke could be power shielded into an infinite grab.

It's not like IC's are useless without the grabs anyway. Even in matches where they arent able to grab, they can still win(smashes that are stupid fast with low cooldown, tilts that hit awkwardly to **** up DI, normal dthrow chaingrabs, UAIR UAIR UAIR.)

i honestly think it's the IC player's fault for losing in almost all cases for not being better with his/her character.

 

[1048576]

You're saying that no characters can space their pokes outside of the IC's pathetic grab range.

Lol okay.

 

[PhantomX]

I don't really see how IC's having to have both characters available when they get the grab, having to get that grab, having to do a difficult chaingrab that varies based on character weight and stage shape/formation, and having the inability to truly set up this grab is more broken than Wario's Waft, aside from the fact that it can be used repeatedly within that minute time frame.

Wario's Waft is unpunishable, has much larger range than IC's grab, comes out one frame sooner, doesn't require coordination with a character that has bad AI, can be used on stage, above the stage, and off the stage, and kills at just slightly less ridiculous percents than zero (tbh though, ICs will very rarely ever grab anyone competent at zero)