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Why do we NOT ban Ice Climber Chain Grabs?
- Thread starter LanceStern
- Start date
- Status
Apollo$
Smash Ace
I made a scarcastic post
§leepy God
Smash Master
♪ It's no fun to play an Ice Climbers that doesn't know how to chain grab, then people will attack you without fear. ): †
♪ Also since Link has a good chance of winning against Ice Climbers, I don't see why they should bad chain grabs.... xD †
♪ Also since Link has a good chance of winning against Ice Climbers, I don't see why they should bad chain grabs.... xD †
LanceStern
Smash Lord
Yea i caught the sarcasm there too. I'm surprised Yume didnt...
Now ICs have a great popo chain grab... yeesh
Now ICs have a great popo chain grab... yeesh
Yumewomiteru
Smash Master
Yink
The Robo-PSIentist
I'm sure as just about everyone has said (but I'm not willing to go through 14 pages), when you play to win, you play to WIN. You don't really consider, "Oh boy, I hope I'm not being too cheap or making this less crowd-pleasing".
Sorry but I think this CG is fine, you'll just have to learn to play a little differently. It may be a cheap way to get a KO but it's also a fast victory for the ICs if the player knows how to do it right and I'm betting it's exciting for other players of the IC's too. (that's of course not certain, but I use the ICs too and I still find it exciting.)
EDIT: That and you need to realize Brawl's "physics" just don't make sense haha.
YES!
I completely agree with you. Stages like Pictochat especially need never to have been banned, and the 'walk off edge' in Distant Planet is barely an issue at all.
Everyone just learn ICs and Metaknight. Each set can have a metaknight ditto match, an Ice Climbers ditto match and "that bad character I main" matches. Grand finals will include Ganon/Snake dittos.
Better yet, just make all matches into dittos. Nothing to complain about then eh.
Better yet, just make all matches into dittos. Nothing to complain about then eh.
PS2: Debatable, but I personally think it should be allowed.
Pictochat: I don't see why that would be banned, if you ban Pictochat you might as well have Brinstar/other gayer stages allowed banned too.
Distant Planet: This one actually IMO deserves to be banned. It's very easy to abuse the layout of the stage and run away from people (circle running and just flat out playing keepaway back and forth). The way the edges are placed is such that characters like MK and G&W can usually easily keep under any edge grab limits (50+) while still stalling out the entire match. IMO if the Leaf platform was made to where you couldn't jump through it, and at the end of the downwards slope there was no edge, then it would be allowable as it would be much harder to camp/run away on. As it is now, it just kinda screams "CAMP ME! CAMP ME! RUN AWAY FROM THE OTHER GUY FOR 8 MINUTES!!! CMON EVERYONE ELSE IS DOING IT!!!" lol. I've personally stalled out so many people on Distant Planet that even I don't think it should be allowed even though it benefits me a lot more than most people to have it allowed (kinda like Brintstar, although whether that needs to be banned or not is really debatable).
xepherthree
Smash Ace
Well, I just wanna put in a little of my two cents.
I'm not anti-ban, but I don't think the CGs should be bad. The IC's are beatable. I think there should be certain]/i] limitations, similar to D3's. just not anything too too strict. While you may argue that desynced attacks are |_| 83r, without the CGs the ICs would sink like a
On the other side, some of the anti-ban responses were kinda uncalled for.
I may be mistaken, but when alot of people say "don't get grabbed" it's similar to saying "just don't get grabbed i don't care that you scrubs actually want to ENJOY THE GAME." I feel the same thing about people who call other people scrubs, because chances are, you don't know them. As stated, because maybe someone wants to enjoy the game doesn't give you the right to call them a scrub. If any player with a notable tournament reputation said to ban the CG, would you call them a scrub? I doubt it.
these people kinda remind me of
I'm sorry if that seems rude but try and be more understanding then "don't get grabbed no johns scrub"
EDIT: Woah like 5 people posted since I started typing this XD
feardragon64
Smash Champion
Well that's your own call. Why do you want everyone else to limit their options because you don't like the strategy. How's it any different from saying, "I don't like playing x character to counter y so I'd rather just have y banned."
LanceStern
Smash Lord
As a Yugioh fan I lawled
Apollo$
Smash Ace
no problem
bobson
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,674
Do you have a video of this in action? I've experienced the camping on DP personally, but I found it just as possible to break as normal camping on other stages, and in camping myself it only really helps when my opponent tries to chase me around directly instead of taking away my options (granted, there are a lot of people like that, but still).
Mew2King
King of the Mews
I did get 3 stocked but that's cuz I gave up. First set I 2 and 3 stocked him, and then I got 3 stocked 2nd set 1st game, but won 3-1, 3-2-2 stocking him following games, including 2 stock low % on YS
Don't worry M2K, we all know that whenever you drop games to people, it's to instill hope in them so that later you can crush it LOL.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
He/she? LOL, as though it would be a girl.Favoriting for being too funny.
Who's this ICs player, cause he/she didn't even seem to take the match seriously and was desperate for a grab.
Eddie G
Smash Hero
Well there's Kawaii Bunny, but who even knows if it's really a girl behind those ICs. >.>;
Snipa4800
Smash Lord
This thread is stupid >.>.
Iceclimbers are gay and make you play different but they're very beatable.
Iceclimbers are gay and make you play different but they're very beatable.
LanceStern
Smash Lord
EDIT: On second thought, I won't even open that can of worms
whaattt caaannn
solecalibur
Smash Master
You just need to learn the match up you cant have the same approach like you do in other matches which is annoying... but playing "gay" is how some people deal with them and as long as it isnt against the rules (planking is my exception) it shouldn't be looked down apon , if you think it should be then make a topic about it
Sorto
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2008
- Messages
- 409
Correct me if i am wrong. But I am pretty sure Wobbling was never banned by SBR standards. SO Lancestern, I feel that you are misinforming the readers by using the argument "why ban wobblng in melee and not the IC infinite in brawl."
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Wobbling
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Tournament_legal_(SSBM)
Also, DDDs infinite isn't banned by SBR. Local tournaments often choose to ban it on their own (not because of SBR).
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Tournament_legal_(SSBB)
As for my opinion on the IC chaingrabs- I believe they are completely fair.
Great players can get around them fairly well. It is possible to "not get grabbed", if you play it safe. It is true that it recks when in mid-level play (if you consider a chaingrabbing IC midlevel). But again, tournament rulesets aren't made for that level of play.
Just look at the facts-
-Ice Climbers have fairly bad grab range (3rd worst in game).
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Grab
-Combine that with their terrible traction (2nd worst in game).
**This makes sheilding grabbing an opponent who spaces well, nearly impossible**
-If Popo perfect sheilds or use his grab armor to get the grab (assuming he has beastly god-like reaction time), Nana will get hit away because of her frame delay (giving the opponent time to escape).
-IC are doing well in the tournament scene, but in general are not placing better then the top level MKs and Snakes in major tourneys. (So the infinite hasn't shown to be taking over the current metagame)
-The infinite grab has one major pre-requirement: Nana must be alive.
-The Infinite is a large part of the IC metagame. If you remove it, you take away their strongest weapon.
-At the Moment the IC aren't considered the best character (or even Top tier). So how broken can the grab be?
-It is possible to just "not get grabbed".
-Desynching can only help to obtain grabs (it does not guarentee them).
-Certain stages limit an Ice Climbers ability to chaingrab (so counterpick those suckas).
-Their chain grab does not make a majority of the cast unusable (but they do have a few close to perfect matchups against cast members)
-SBRs current Brawl ruleset does not yet ban any existing combo, infinite, chain grab, grab release or lock.
-Other characters have infinites, combos, and locks of their own. Even ones that work on a good portion of the cast (Pikachu's QAC lock comes to mind). Blame them and their boards for not stepping it up and trying to figure out how to add that to their metagame. Don't punish the Ice Climbers for trying to advance their own. Especially when PRO-players for the most part don't find the tactic broken (just annoying). You have a game with a few different characters with infinites, combos, and 0-deaths and the IC chaingrab doesn't seem so bad anymore (just look at smash 64 or Marvel vs Capcom 2, there are a bunch of guarenteed 0- deaths and most if not all of them are considered fair) And as weird as it sounds, this game has that capability (to a lesser extent I assume). As far as I know, there is Single Nana Locking(Diddy), QAC locking(Pikachu), and the Saltus Combo (Sheik), just to name a few obsenely good advanced techniques that could (and should) be improved upon and seen more frequently in the later metagame.
Saltus Combo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUhS8RQrOU4
Single Nana Lock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GzdTccsYc8&feature=related
QAC Lock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6Ze71AhoLo&feature=related
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Wobbling
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Tournament_legal_(SSBM)
Also, DDDs infinite isn't banned by SBR. Local tournaments often choose to ban it on their own (not because of SBR).
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Tournament_legal_(SSBB)
As for my opinion on the IC chaingrabs- I believe they are completely fair.
Great players can get around them fairly well. It is possible to "not get grabbed", if you play it safe. It is true that it recks when in mid-level play (if you consider a chaingrabbing IC midlevel). But again, tournament rulesets aren't made for that level of play.
Just look at the facts-
-Ice Climbers have fairly bad grab range (3rd worst in game).
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Grab
-Combine that with their terrible traction (2nd worst in game).
**This makes sheilding grabbing an opponent who spaces well, nearly impossible**
-If Popo perfect sheilds or use his grab armor to get the grab (assuming he has beastly god-like reaction time), Nana will get hit away because of her frame delay (giving the opponent time to escape).
-IC are doing well in the tournament scene, but in general are not placing better then the top level MKs and Snakes in major tourneys. (So the infinite hasn't shown to be taking over the current metagame)
-The infinite grab has one major pre-requirement: Nana must be alive.
-The Infinite is a large part of the IC metagame. If you remove it, you take away their strongest weapon.
-At the Moment the IC aren't considered the best character (or even Top tier). So how broken can the grab be?
-It is possible to just "not get grabbed".
-Desynching can only help to obtain grabs (it does not guarentee them).
-Certain stages limit an Ice Climbers ability to chaingrab (so counterpick those suckas).
-Their chain grab does not make a majority of the cast unusable (but they do have a few close to perfect matchups against cast members)
-SBRs current Brawl ruleset does not yet ban any existing combo, infinite, chain grab, grab release or lock.
-Other characters have infinites, combos, and locks of their own. Even ones that work on a good portion of the cast (Pikachu's QAC lock comes to mind). Blame them and their boards for not stepping it up and trying to figure out how to add that to their metagame. Don't punish the Ice Climbers for trying to advance their own. Especially when PRO-players for the most part don't find the tactic broken (just annoying). You have a game with a few different characters with infinites, combos, and 0-deaths and the IC chaingrab doesn't seem so bad anymore (just look at smash 64 or Marvel vs Capcom 2, there are a bunch of guarenteed 0- deaths and most if not all of them are considered fair) And as weird as it sounds, this game has that capability (to a lesser extent I assume). As far as I know, there is Single Nana Locking(Diddy), QAC locking(Pikachu), and the Saltus Combo (Sheik), just to name a few obsenely good advanced techniques that could (and should) be improved upon and seen more frequently in the later metagame.
Saltus Combo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUhS8RQrOU4
Single Nana Lock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GzdTccsYc8&feature=related
QAC Lock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6Ze71AhoLo&feature=related
Yumewomiteru
Smash Master
gaiz, I think Sorto just won.
GunmasterLombardi
Smash Champion
Fair enough.
Just stop bumping this.
Just stop bumping this.
solecalibur
Smash Master
Nah im still not convinced
We shouldn't ban it but limit it if anything because I know it requires some skill to preform this and there are other locks or infinitives but it seems ridiculous to think "don't get grabbed or you lose your stock" I know you should be punished for getting grabbed sure I welcome that but lets limit it (example 5 chaingrabs per grab not match)
We shouldn't ban it but limit it if anything because I know it requires some skill to preform this and there are other locks or infinitives but it seems ridiculous to think "don't get grabbed or you lose your stock" I know you should be punished for getting grabbed sure I welcome that but lets limit it (example 5 chaingrabs per grab not match)
Indeed, it is ridiculous to hold a thought like you do despite the fact that this has been pretty much been proved to be fine by using many facts while you only bring your own opinion with no factual value.
solecalibur
Smash Master
I'm sorry let me spend 30 minutes writing up an essay then get trolled by the next poster I dont see how your post is any more creative
Everything has already been said regarding the chaingrabs
limiting them would be unfeasible
LanceStern
Smash Lord
It would not be infeasible, and why are you people so mean? I'm looking at you swordgard. What facts does the poster need besides "it's ridiculous that 'don't get grabbed or you lose a stock' "
Anyways, Sorto that was a very nice post you had there.
Anyways, Sorto that was a very nice post you had there.
Ridiculous is an opinion. I personally don't think that it's ridiculous that if you get grabbed by IC's, you lose a stock. I think it balances them out to a high tier character since they are obviously nearly garbage without being able to infinite (Inb4 massive wall of IC players talking about Desynching, Uairing, Fusion, etc).
I'm gonna stop telling people to avoid using opinion words when trying to show facts.
I'm gonna stop telling people to avoid using opinion words when trying to show facts.
the fear of the grab is more important than the grab.
solecalibur
Smash Master
Unless you want to play the devil's advocate again prove to me how D3's Inf is banned at tounrys without using opinion words (Not talking about SWF's rule set) how is that different then IC's other than it takes more "skill" (I will give credit it takes skill but it should be at a set limit if anything)
1048576
Smash Master
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2006
- Messages
- 3,417
D3's infinite doesn't affect most of his matchups at all but instead makes a select few characters completely unplayable.
It's completely different. IC's CG affects everyone equally, and it doesn't render any characters unplayable. (Ganon is unplayable anyway, cause of sheik)
Lets be honest, IC's are still worse than MK and Snake even with their infinite. I shouldn't have to list why.
It's completely different. IC's CG affects everyone equally, and it doesn't render any characters unplayable. (Ganon is unplayable anyway, cause of sheik)
Lets be honest, IC's are still worse than MK and Snake even with their infinite. I shouldn't have to list why.
LanceStern
Smash Lord
These are more questions than arguments.
Besides unplayable is an opinion word. If your facing D3 with an unplayable matchup, just "don't get grabbed" right?
These are more questions than arguments
EDIT: And actually I'll answer question 3 myself. As of now YES, the grab does allow the ICs to be near top in the game. but should it be like that?
And ice climbers don't make others unplayable?
Besides unplayable is an opinion word. If your facing D3 with an unplayable matchup, just "don't get grabbed" right?
You mean it locks/handicaps and 0-death/KO percentage equally?
So because they have a 0-death grab on every character in the game, that lets an otherwise C tier character be 3rd best (or top 5/6) in the game?
These are more questions than arguments
EDIT: And actually I'll answer question 3 myself. As of now YES, the grab does allow the ICs to be near top in the game. but should it be like that?
solecalibur
Smash Master
Lancestern whats your view if we limit them because I'm pretty sure we have to limit them and see how that works before we can even consider banning the CG's
Dedede infinite is banned in only a few regions, and it is not an SBR recommendation. I'm not gonna play Devil's Advocate for that Ban because from what I can tell, the Ban really is used based on opinion or on faulty facts. To me, Dedede's infinite isn't broad enough to affect the metagame as a whole to the point where it warrants a ban. He can only infinite a few characters, he has to have preconditions set up to do it (the grab pummel, which lets characters mash out of his grabs until a fairly high % threshold). I've not seen tournament results that show Dedede's infinite being dominate in any region.
I have gotten answers like "Well it makes DK unviable, and that's unfair." or "Dedede will grab you, you cannot avoid it", but as far as getting answers like "Concluding our analysis of 6 months worth of Results Data, we found that his Infinite was over centralizing, hence we removed it from gameplay.", I've not gotten many of those (and the ones I did get weren't even legit.)
I have gotten answers like "Well it makes DK unviable, and that's unfair." or "Dedede will grab you, you cannot avoid it", but as far as getting answers like "Concluding our analysis of 6 months worth of Results Data, we found that his Infinite was over centralizing, hence we removed it from gameplay.", I've not gotten many of those (and the ones I did get weren't even legit.)
Gnes
Smash Master
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