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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

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Kaladin

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Whoa, talk about an upset. I thought ESAM was gonna win the whole thing. Was the match streamed? I'm curious if ESAM was out played or out matchup knowledge's.
 

|RK|

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Whoa, talk about an upset. I thought ESAM was gonna win the whole thing. Was the match streamed? I'm curious if ESAM was out played or out matchup knowledge's.
I had him winning the whole thing, too. He says he was outplayed on his Twitter. ;_;
 

Djent

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Both. :4peach: historically pooped on :4pikachu: in Brawl, and the characters' strengths haven't changed enough for that assessment to be much different in Sm4sh.

Also, SHORYUKKEENNN!!~ :4ryu::4ryu:
 

Ffamran

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I've been thinking this for awhile (since Shaya's "overtuned" comments about Ness and Falcon) but one of Fox's moves in particular does too much damage. Larry just took False to 57% with 4 (3?) uairs. And it kills. I think it's 18% fresh?

Larry is obviously an absolute top player but matches like that are what makes me think Fox is on the same level as ZSS.
Two hits, 5% and 11%, for 16% and same as a clean Up Smash. You're glad we aren't playing Melee as it did 18% total; 5% first hit and 13% second. What's supposed to keep it in check other than Fox being unable to reliably connect Uair out of U-throw like in Melee and like Falco is the small hitbox. Fox has to be under or right inside of you to land his Uair since the hitbox is more vertical than say, Captain Falcon's where it's arcing. It's also supposed to be kept in check by Fox's fall speed, air speed, and that you can potentially whiff either hit because something weird happened with the first hit or you hit late only get the second hit. Hitting with the second hit-only is like hitting with Ike's Nair or Fair which aren't exactly fast and since it's a two-hit, it's even more telegraphed. Oh, and landing lag too, but it's not really going to be used in short hop, so that 22 frames of landing lag isn't really that bad. With staling taken into account - it should be doing 64% if you get 4 fresh hits -, but since Larry was able to chain 4 of them, he only did 57%. That's still a lot of percent, but at the same time... You really shouldn't be able to chain those like that on anyone and you shouldn't be getting hit like that.

I'm pretty sure Fox can get 2 Uairs at low percents for about 32%, but after that, a 3rd or 4th one is pretty much you getting read, you're not DI'ing, or something. Mid to high percents, I don't know, but it's probably like other higher knockback Uairs where the 2nd Uair is only going to happen if you read their DI.

Is it an overtuned move? Kind of, but considering Fox only has Up Smash and Uair as overtuned moves - RIP jab locking -, it's not that bad. They're not as tuned as some other moves. Almost all of Fox's moves are good and they compliment his play style and his other moves, but none of them tread extreme. Now, if say, Uair did 22% and was still chainable, then that's really pushing it.
 
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Yonder

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So I've been combing Twitter/Challonge for other insights into the final Paragon bracket (which still isn't updated :glare:):
The "death pool" (D6 slot maybe? :cyclops:) was won by Shaky and Cacogen.

Larry and VoiD through without incident.
That guy's legit, always creams me in friendlies. He plays many characters, and apparently plays a toooon so no surprise his skills are sharp.
 

Megamang

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anyone have a link to the esam matches? Im super sad about this.


How does peach deal with QA? ESAM says lingering hitboxes are super important for that.
 

Djent

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@ Megamang Megamang NAir is active from 5-19 and BAir is 6-13, both of those should be good. Really all of her aerials are somewhat "lingering" (DAir is multihit but each hitbox is short-lasting).
 
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Tri Knight

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I'm kinda disappointed Link's so low but it's only natural. His melee game is just so god awful... he really needs better frame data on pretty much everything before I can consider him even mid at this point... he just has minimal options and minimal follow ups to anything. Honestly, his sword game just needs a huge rework. Right now Link is trying to do what Toon Link is just pretty much completely better at doing and it's just not working. I think Link needs to be rebuilt to focus more on close quarter sword attacks.

Toon Link has solid reps though. He's starting to stand out quite a bit from what I've seen.
 

Shaya

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Peach has been beating Pikachu/ESAM consistently for over half a decade
"even at worse" though.
#2 or #3 in the game boys~
(been hearing this since brawl, wrryy)

Funnily enough, with all the slayerz hype, somehow... somewhere, the only player that dreads Slayerz being on his side of the bracket from round 1, got slated as first/second (although I'm not sure how reliably nairo would be knocking out ESAM in that head to head) didn't have his considerations tipped. People really think that ESAM (and Pikachu) is on the same top-top level consistency as ZeRo/Nairo (and Dabuz/Ramin is overall the only fair 'thirds' in this regard) have been because of one tournament (well; chances are you thought that before that set anyway, it just enabled that opinion further).
WHEN WE ALL KNOW Luigi exists that disembowels the rat already. Tough match ups with at least Mario, Fox, Sheik, Olimar, Ness, etc.

I'm really happy to see 6WX break top 8 though, his results have been somewhat average since Apex, and the personal reasons I heard kinda justify it (hard core studying + summer internship) and now he's back in a stable situation and breaking those barriers again... it's good. 6WX was on the rise as one of the newest/only top level smash4 players without a strong brawl background, I'd like to believe it wasn't a fluke.
 
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|RK|

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I don't like to say it, but game two of Ally vs 6WX was thievery lol.
 

Asdioh

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So I've never seen a 0% death (like, stock ended at 0%) off the top before today, but Ally just did that with a single hit of Mario's UpB, with I believe the reverse hit just barely hitting Sonic off the top, and killing, without actually registering any damage, because multihit moves do that somedays.
Everybody was like whoa.
 

Nobie

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Talk about a zero to death.
 

hypersonicJD

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Does everyone else hate Mario's Up Smash? Ally just 3-0 6WX. Maybe Sonic is now middle tier. I haven't been able to win anything and now 6WX is getting rekt on using Sonic. The Sonic speed has met is end?
 

Mr. Johan

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And that is why Mario Up-B being Frame 3 invincible is one of the most boneheaded design choices in this game. Invincible Frame 8 Usmash comes close.
 

san.

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Let's just not give things ridiculous invincibility. Mario's upB needs to be invnicibile for various numbers of reasons, though, and it's very punishable.
 
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Shaya

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Shaya the Eternal Rat Hater.
Literally mained Pikachu so hard since 1996 that I've taken him into a world of Chansey, Tyranitar/Blissy/Snorlax, no problem. **** Luigi and Sheik though; and every other good character, all ground types :<

Also I've heard Peach does pretty well against Rosalina. Would be cool to see Slayerz pull this off though. We're seeing Luma be almost a non-factor here in neutral, but Dabuz still maintains advantage.
 
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Spinosaurus

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It didn't even do any damage. It literally was zero to death.
 

Djent

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:4pikachu: and :rosalina: are borderline solo viable by themselves, but interestingly they cover each other's worst MUs quite well. The future of these two may be to team up.
 

Nidtendofreak

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And this is why you shouldn't always go to Smashville kids: low ceilings + weird move attributes = you dying off the top with 0% damage : D
 

migul

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Literally mained Pikachu so hard since 1996 that I've taken him into a world of Chansey, Tyranitar/Blissy/Snorlax, no problem. **** Luigi and Sheik though; and every other good character, all ground types :<

Also I've heard Peach does pretty well against Rosalina. Would be cool to see Slayerz pull this off though. We're seeing Luma be almost a non-factor here in neutral, but Dabuz still maintains advantage.
You main Pikachu when he's **** and in a tier below frickin PU (FU), which in itself is below NU. Oh the irony.
 

Kofu

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I don't remember high BKB moves killing as low as they do now in previous games, even without rage. It didn't look like Sonic should have died there tbh. I've seen Game & Watch get killed by Mario's Up-B at stage-level, but rage and smash charge vulnerability factored into that too.
 
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Pazx

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MVD plays so risky, I really want to see him have another crack at Nairo's ZSS (protip: ZSS and Sheik are Diddy's only super relevant matchups, Ness does OK vs ZSS as well let's go Shaky) but he needs to chill with the barrels if he wants to have a chance.

[edit: Shaky pls get a secondary for the Dabuz matchup

edit 2: Shaky pls stop burning your DJ u got this]

Tyrant vs Dabuz is disappointing (was it streamed? I missed it) because MK simply loves characters with Rosie's attributes, and he's good at dealing with Luma too.

Does everyone else hate Mario's Up Smash? Ally just 3-0 6WX. Maybe Sonic is now middle tier. I haven't been able to win anything and now 6WX is getting rekt on using Sonic. The Sonic speed has met is end?
Sonic is not middle tier. A few pages ago you asked for some advice and my advice to you is that if you want to improve you need to remove emotion from your game, and that means no knee-jerk reactions to a Sonic main losing. He's still a top (~)10 character, Ally is just a very good player and Mario is also a top (~)10 character.

And this is why you shouldn't always go to Smashville kids: low ceilings + weird move attributes = you dying off the top with 0% damage : D
If we shouldn't go to stages with ceilings as low as Smashville then what do we have left? Battlefield is the only commonly legal stage with a higher ceiling.
 
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RedBeefBaron

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how did he go from getting bodied by vinnie to 3-1ng mr. r...?
I missed the set vs vinnie because i was watching pm.

He beat Mr. R because he kept his cool even after being bodied across the stage left and right long enough to kill with rage.

Seems like a pretty useful skill for the sheik MU in general.
 

Ffamran

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Does everyone else hate Mario's Up Smash? Ally just 3-0 6WX. Maybe Sonic is now middle tier. I haven't been able to win anything and now 6WX is getting rekt on using Sonic. The Sonic speed has met is end?
You would hate Luigi, Dr. Mario, Mr. Game & Watch, and Rosalina's Up Smashes. The issues with those moves having invincibility is that there's little end lag. Mr. Game & Watch acts at frame 39, Mario, Dr. Mario, and Luigi act at frame 40, and Rosalina at frame 48. They're all partially invincible on their hit frames; Mario's invincible from frames 9-12, Dr. Mario and Luigi's invincible from frames 9-13. Only Rosalina's and Mr. G&W are different; Rosie's from frames 7-19 which is 1 frame earlier from her frame 8 Up Smash and Mr. G&W's frame 24-25, but it's invincible from frames 4-25. In contrast, Wario's Up Smash and Wii Fit Trainer get to act at frame 58 and Roy at frame 59. Wario's frame 11-13 and invincible frames 8-14, WFT's frame 14-22 and invincible frames 12-15 ending at the clean hit of frames 12-15, and Roy's frame 12-23 and invincible frames 10-23.

Also, you not winning anything has nothing to do with Sonic's placement and 6wX seems to be dropping off in comparison to StaticManny. Whether that's a lack of practice or "optimal" play, I don't know. Calling Sonic a mid tier would be like calling Captain Falcon a low tier. For their tools to be called mid or low tier would mean there is a really, really high ceiling for good tools.

Edit: I just noticed that 6wX gets killed by trying to kill up top like that a lot. Dabuz has done this several times and Ally just did it.

And that is why Mario Up-B being Frame 3 invincible is one of the most boneheaded design choices in this game. Invincible Frame 8 Usmash comes close.
Invincible "Up Specials" are a common thing in fighting games. As anti-airs, they need something to challenge safely. Without invincibility or armor, you would have to anti-air by hitting before your opponent does - Falco's Side Smash is an example of this as it lacks any invincibility and is frame 17, but makes up for being transcendent allowing him to challenge anything, arcing over his head, and moves him forward or his angled up Ftilt being fast enough of a poke to interrupt aerial approaches. Famously, Shoryuken is invincible upon startup and it's a notorious anti-air. Anti-airs are generally fast and invincible. Shoruken's frame 6 in Smash 4 and in KoF XIII, Kyo's Oniyaki is frame 4 for the light and EX version or frame 7 for the fierce version. Mario's 3 Super Jump Punch might be pushing or not... Frame 6 is enough to get interrupt many things. They are, however, countered by the fact you're in the air. That means you have to land.

Here's the only issue: Smash's Up Specials aren't universal. Little Mac's Rising Uppercut for example has no armor nor any invincibility for either the ground or air version and Roy's Blazer only has armor on the ground while Marth, Lucina, and Sonic have invincible frames even though Sonic's isn't an (normal) attack. In other cases, Up Specials are strictly for travel like Rosalina's Launch Star or the Pits' Gift of Flight. For those that don't have any armor like Zelda, Shulk, or Link, then they'll need to hit first, but intercepting an anti-air would be difficult for Zelda's Farore's Wind not to mention she could just SD and Link's Spin Attack is kind of worthless for vertical challenging. Oh, and for some, their Up Specials are just inferior versions of other characters. By some, I mean Falco.

I don't remember high BKB moves killing as low as they do now in previous games, even without rage. It didn't look like Sonic should have died there tbh. I've seen Game & Watch get killed by Mario's Up-B at stage-level, but rage and smash charge vulnerability factored into that too.
Mario's Super Jump Punch doesn't even have base knockback until the last, sixth hit. For the first 5 hits, they only have weighted knockback and 100 knockback growth which shouldn't be doing anything... I think. Peach and Roy are also capable of doing this with her Parasol and his Blazer. And you guessed it! Both Parasol and Blazer have weighted knockback for their looping hits. Why it's doing this, I don't know. Samus, Little Mac, and Fox can't do this with their Screw Attack, Rising Uppercut, and Uair. I'm going to assume because they're purely vertical moves that prevent this - you'll just fall out instead of being forced up - weird interaction as SJP, Parasol, and Blazer are all diagonally-moving moves.
 
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Kaladin

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I missed the last hour of stream, watching live (Ally v. Mr. R) now. Any upsets relevant to the topic of this thread I should know about? How is Shaky/Slayerz doing?
 
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