Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Gawain]

Sheik being "easy to combo" is barely a weakness because being "easy to combo" just doesn't matter that much in this game. It's not like Melee, where Fox and Falco are so easy to combo that it's the only thing keeping the MU against them winnable for some characters. In Sm4sh we have low hitstun, low gravity and a really good airdodge. No matter who you're using, it's not really that hard to get out of combos. Sheik has an amazing disadvantage state anyway.

Moving away from the Sheik discussion, @istudying just got 1st with at Avalon X, a 72-man national in the Netherlands. Bracket and info here. He also got 1st in doubles.

Thank you. Maybe now people will stop pretending like fast falling is a disadvantage on this game. It's WAY more of an advantage.

 

[Gunla]

The easy to combo thing isn't really much of a weakness, indeed.

I'd honestly say characters benefit from fast falling more as bc1910 stated; just because it may be "easy to combo" from one perspective, the benefits of fast falling (too many almost to list) definitely outweigh the downsides. Getting down quickly, say, against Jigglypuff and escaping her preferred status in the air definitely helps, because at the point, Jigglypuff is above you. And that's a good state for many characters.

As for Avalon X, very good to see some results with Greninja. Makes me proud.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

Yeah, and Sheik being a fastfaller can actually be a positive, too, since her faster fallspeed+great "get-off-me" moves make landing with her really safe.

 

[bc1910]

Exactly, fast falling is so much more of an advantage in this game. It lets you land from juggles more quickly and thus get in your shield quickly, while your susceptibility to true combos is barely any worse because true combos are so much rarer than in Melee (and stuff like throw > aerial tends to be guaranteed on all characters).

And yeah, that result for Greninja is amazing. This is the second weekend on the trot where Greninja has got top 8 at a big national, having got 5th at Umebura 19 last week. He's still not making a splash in the US (no pun intended) but elsewhere his results are seriously improving.

 

[David Viran]

What? No.

Shield lock is removed, shield push back is negated, and you can drop shield instantly. You can cancel your 7 frame shield drop animation with a normal, special, or jump.

I want to see PS TSRK's Ryus. Make it happen.

I know this is older but you do know that a PS still gives you hit lag and the shield stun so you can't actually drop shield instantly?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I know this is older but you do know that a PS still gives you hit lag and the shield stun so you can't actually drop shield instantly?

The whole point of powershielding is dropping your shield instantly >.>

 

[san.]

You lose shield drop lag, but you still have shield stun. Try power shielding charge shot.

 

[Megamang]

The thing about those punishes you listed @Radical Larry is that once i get out of pools, shieks stop f-smashing my shield and... bairing and drifting inwards?


Ok, so lets take some melee inspiration here though, since I have a competitive series of games coming up before any incoming patch. So, assuming high level play, the weakness that remains is her physics make her disadvantage a little harder. Who has kill setups on shiek because of this, especially from an easily hittable move such as an aerial or projectile?

I know downward diagonal metal blade true comboes into utilt with megaman. Additionally, u-air is actually positive on shield if spaced well, so she can't hide in shield forever. Also, d-throw puts her in a nice juggle position.

Quick attack also pops her up, and can link into - but probably not true combo- into smashes. Anyone else good at killing shiek?

 

[Locke 06]

I know this is older but you do know that a PS still gives you hit lag and the shield stun so you can't actually drop shield instantly?

The whole point of powershielding is dropping your shield instantly >.>

David's right.

The "instantly" is meant to say you can bypass the "locked in shield" frames. I didn't mention the hitlag/shield stun because they're the same as if you shield something normally. Since you can never bypass hitlag/shield stun, I didn't think it was worth bringing up.

Something I may be wrong about is that I think you have to go through 1 frame of shield dropping before interrupting it. So if ZSS buffers jab 1 out of a powershield, the hitbox comes out 2 frames after you release shield. Might be a question for the mechanics thread, but I'd be interested if someone could confirm that I'm right. Which would mean that PS>rest or PS>TSRK has 1 frame of vulnerability and PS>utilt (Mega) has 6 instead of 0 and 5 respectively.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Someone mentioned 1-1-1-1 Mii Brawler. Well it's time for an adventure in the weird fun facts I know about characters no one else pays attention to!

Fun Fact: Down throw into fair into grab reset into pummel into downthrow into fair reset into down throw into up air into back air can do 60% DAMAGE ON SHEIK FROM 0%. And yeah if you follow DI it can true combo from as far as any testing/matches I've had can tell. Works on a lot of fast fallers/heavies. This combo can do a lot of things too like you can go for dair and finish it early but try to spike off stage and other stuff.

Down throw into up b near the ledge at low percents can either spike (with you dieing with them) or you can just down throw - dair them. Down tilt can start combos and goes into up air until rather high percents and up tilt can start some things too.

The shotput can work for zoning and as a unique movement option, up b can spike folks with creative ledge trumping, side b is an okay punish and as far as I know down b is crap outside of a magical hard read at high percents to try and link into f-smash.

So you have a Marioish character that can actually put up some serious damage rather early and quickly. Here's the issue: KILLING WITH MII BRAWLER IS A [expletive deleted]

F-smash is SO laggy. Up smash takes a while to kill but as an odd tipper at the end of the move that could have edge guarding properties. side b can kill but it takes a strong punish at high percents. Outside of spikes if you're lucky there's maybe down smash which isn't horrible but isn't great either.

So in all honesty, we probably have a yoshi-esque character in a way where they have decent speed and can wrack up damage but as of now securing the kill is a pain. Plus with a rather linear recovery gimping is doable. To be honest I could still see Mii Brawler actually being high up there on the viable list but probably JUST at the very end.

---​

Now onto the Mii I also know a lot about: Swordfighter. He's basically got 3 of the best moves he could want in 1-1-1-1: he's the Mii hurt the least by that arbitrary rule. I'll put it bluntly: if you think characters like Roy, Ike and Marth should be up there you probably should put Swordfighter right near them in a neat little bunch.

His buffs have been great for wracking on more damage, speed, and being a bit more safe. Fair can cancel into kill moves (and jab can too as a 50/50), his recovery has the sexy spike, up air can kill and combos out of throws very well, down air can poke shields, makes coming down nice, and can combo into footstool nicely for combos and/or off stage death. Bair can do nice damage and is rather fast/kill move. It can be comboed into too! Down tilt can combo into nair which can actually end up with grab resets at mid percents or you can just Fair for damage.

Hows about up air into up air TRUE COMBOS at kill percents? (is more complicated but is honestly landable for real)

He's a solid character with decent atributes, combos, and a disjoint. Don't count him out. He's nowheres near this whole (bottom character) thing people keep throwing him in. It's hard to cut the "worst character in the game" attitudes people got about him before ignoring he existed back in the early days

---​

Mii Gunner: ask someone who knows more. I gotta toy with gunner more in 1-1-1-1.

 

[Ffamran]

The easy to combo thing isn't really much of a weakness, indeed.

I'd honestly say characters benefit from fast falling more as bc1910 stated; just because it may be "easy to combo" from one perspective, the benefits of fast falling (too many almost to list) definitely outweigh the downsides. Getting down quickly, say, against Jigglypuff and escaping her preferred status in the air definitely helps, because at the point, Jigglypuff is above you. And that's a good state for many characters.

As for Avalon X, very good to see some results with Greninja. Makes me proud.

Isn't there also a point where fast falling too fast would be bad? Melee Falco comes to mind with his 3.1 fall speed. Sure, it helps him live vertically better, but gimping him is much easier. No character has a natural fall speed like that anymore since the closest are the 2.0 range like Fox's 2.05 in Smash 4 and Triple D's 1.95. Those are closest to Melee Ganondorf's 2.0 who was the 10th fastest faller. For reference of fall speed being lower, Melee Jigglypuff had a fall speed of 1.3 which is equivalent to Wii Fit Trainer's while Jigglypuff currently has a fall speed of 0.98.

Now I'm curious what would have happened if a character had an extreme fall speed like that in Smash 4. Maybe Falco, Roy, and Little Mac? Old traits for Falco and Roy, but also to say Little Mac is an even worse air fighter. Here's the thing, you just made Falco and Roy live even longer if Falco had a 3.1 fall speed and Roy his Melee 2.4. Little Mac matching Falco would mean they would be the most difficult lightweights to kill off the top, but they would also be even easier to gimp, get locked in low knockback moves like Mario's Utilt, and their off stage game became even riskier.

We only have evidence for air speed differences like Yoshi vs. Luigi, weight extreme examples like Triple D vs. Mewtwo - also an example of a giant hurtbox on a lightweight -, and even run and walk speed examples like Sonic vs. Robin or Marth vs. Captain Falcon, but fall speed kind of only has Jigglypuff since Fox doesn't fall that fast compared to Melee. I'm really curious about all of this. Ah, character traits, the inner, invisible workings that make characters unique.

 

[Gunla]

@ LiteralGrill
Gunner is definitely hurt by 1111. Very little doubt in my eyes.

Their defaults are Samus's Charge Shot, A strange version of PK Fire, A strange version of Palutena's Rocket Jump, and a shine. now, while I play a set not on the Custom Moveset Project (Mid/Small 3331, and that's for another time), I can at least comment on how they are affected.

For neutral specials, we have Charge Blast (literally Samus's Charge Shot), Lazer Blaze (a decent neutral special not unlike Falco's 3rd Neutral, Burst Blaster), and Grenade Launch (an incredible and fantastic special move with heavy utility). Grenade Launch's utility extends far beyond Charge Blast, working with stage control and offstage pressure. The fact that it can turn mid charge is great, too.

Side wise, the special utility is much more balanced. Flame Pillar (a PK-Fire esque move that has one hit, but deals decent knockback), Stealth Burst (think Din's Fire, but horizontal and more powerful), and Gunner Missile (literally Samus's Missile). While I prefer the 3rd, I can definitely say that each of these has good utilities for different situations.

Up wise, we get Lunar Launch (a weak recovery a bit like Rocket Jump that dunks victims below Gunner), Cannon Uppercut (actually like Palutena's Rocket Jump with low recovery), and Arm Rocket (a nondamaging move like the Pit Duo's Power of Flight). Each has their own uses, hence the coverage listed on the Custom Moveset Project.

Lastly, Down. Echo Reflector (literally just a shine), Bomb Drop (a small bomb launch which works pretty well with Grenade Launch and/or Gunner Missile), and Absorbing Vortex (literally PSI Magnet). Each of these has pretty decent uses depending on your other moves, so I usually prioritize this one last when I select a set.

Gunner's Customs have a lot more decent coverage, having only one or two actually "bad" options with a

Isn't there also a point where fast falling too fast would be bad? Melee Falco comes to mind with his 3.1 fall speed. Sure it helps him live vertically better, but gimping him is much easier. No character has a natural fall speed like that anymore since the closest are the 2.0 range like Fox's 2.05 in Smash 4 and Triple D's 1.95. Those are closest to Melee Ganondorf's 2.0 who was the 10th fastest faller. For reference of fall speed being lower, Melee Jigglypuff had a fall speed of 1.3 which is equivalent to Wii Fit Trainer's while Jigglypuff has a fall speed of 0.98.

Now I'm curious what would have happened of a character had an extreme fall speed like that in Smash 4. Maybe Falco, Roy, and Little Mac? Old traits for Falco and Roy, but also to say Little Mac is and even worse air fighter. Here's the thing, you just made Falco and Roy live even longer if Falco had a 3.1 fall speed and Roy his Melee 2.4. Little Mac matching Falco would mean they would be the most difficult lightweights to kill off the top, but they would also be even easier to gimp, get locked in low knockback moves like Mario's Utilt, and their off stage game became even riskier.

We only have evidence for air speed differences like Yoshi vs. Luigi, weight extreme examples like Triple D vs. Mewtwo, and even run and walk speed examples like Sonic vs. Robin or Marth vs. Captain Falcon, but fall speed kind of only has Jigglypuff since Fox doesn't fall that fast compared to Melee. I'm really curious about all of this.

The thing with Melee is the way recovering and edgeguarding works in that game means different things for fall speeds and what's good and bad.

With certain characters, their weight helps them. With other examples, it no doubt hinders them; I'd say it primarily depends on their kit and what works best for them in each situation.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Fastfalling in this game is fine. You are objectively combo'd harder but it's a lot less of a problem (read: not nonexistent, but a lot less) than it is in say, Melee. I think there are pros and cons to it and it's pretty clearly a good thing in some instances, but it feels character dependent to me. Now, if you're a fastfaller with not good combo escape options and your aerial momentum/drift is bad (regardless of airdodge becuase airdodge, while good, is also laggy if you hit the ground with it, ofc.) then it's a noticable problem, but I can only think of like, 1 or maybe 2-3 fastfallers who don't have a safe-ish escape option. And yes, one of them is Falcon. His disadvantage state is REALLY REALLY bad mostly because of his fall speed and frame data.

So no I wouldn't flatly state that it's just straight up advantageous, I think it's largely a case by case basis in this game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

His disadvantage is bad because he doesnt have a mindless get out of jail free card.

Period.

 

[Trifroze]

You have to be either a fastfaller, a floaty or something inbetween and they can all be considered weaknesses from some point of view. Fastfallers just tend to have more strengths to balance it out because they're faster.

 

[Djent]

Paragon bracket currently has Pitbull over SlayerZ, but I'm pretty sure the former was supposed to be in losers. I know Dath didn't lose yet and it has him seeded in losers instead. Apparently the pool losers were reseeded against the winners instead of starting in losers. Weird...

EDIT: Notable results include Rich Brown > Dabuz and Shaky > Ally, both WR2.

 

[Kofu]

What happened? I didn't see it.

If SlayerZ lost I'm gonna cry because that MU is so easy

A bit late and I'm nowhere near GimR/SlayerZs' level but I don't think it's a clear win for Peach. I think she wins but it's slight. FAir is absolutely frightening but aside from that Game & Watch can challenge/beat most of Peach's attacks (DTilt snuffs float approaches too). It would probably be even if Game & Watch wasn't so light and Peach didn't have these random moves with absurd knockback (mainly Dash Attack and Parasol, the latter mainly being a threat with rage).

 

[Djent]

Because the pool losers were given a second third lease on life, we have an exceptionally stacked losers bracket already.

Dath vs. Dabuz for 33rd
K9 out in 33rd to 8BitMan
VoiD in losers, faces will or Dakpo

 

[Zannabluke]

holy guacamole trela's ryu

 

[Ffamran]

Did Larry Fox Illusion a bit to high? He kept getting caught by Ryu's Down Smash. That or Ryu's Down Smash is like Little Mac's where it covers below the ledge.

 

[Kaladin]

Oh lawd Trela's Ryu.

Can we please stop pretending this character isn't good?

 

[Asdioh]

Oh lawd Trela's Ryu.

Can we please stop pretending this character isn't good?

I think everybody knows he's good already. I had the pleasure of playing EL's Ryu, and the true combos into killing Shoryukens between 50-80% or so... most characters don't have that kind of power!

Meanwhile Will's going Sheik and everybody knows he should be using DK right?

 

[Kaladin]

I think everybody knows he's good already. I had the pleasure of playing EL's Ryu, and the true combos into killing Shoryukens between 50-80% or so... most characters don't have that kind of power!

Meanwhile Will's going Sheik and everybody knows he should be using DK right?

Yup, Will's Sheik is currently losing to Dakpo's ZSS game two, although not by much. It's an awful matchup for DK, but... Yeah....He needs the Dong.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I think everybody knows he's good already. I had the pleasure of playing EL's Ryu, and the true combos into killing Shoryukens between 50-80% or so... most characters don't have that kind of power!

Meanwhile Will's going Sheik and everybody knows he should be using DK right?

Against ZSS? No. I'd rather go random in that matchup.

 

[Djent]

Forreal, I think the prevalence of will keep from rising into the top 20, as good as he is now. The fact that he also loses to Sheik/Pika/Fox doesn't help his case.

EDIT: ImHip!!!

 

[|RK|]

Lol, did a Duck Hunt just take a game off Mr. R's Sheik

 

[Zannabluke]

maybe japan was right all along about duck hunt??

 

[Asdioh]

Yes! After first game I thought it was over!
I doubt he'll take the set, but that was nice. Note that both stocks were taken by Smash reads, so not safe stuff ;_;7
Also I just had the strongest deja vu at the start of game 3, that was hella weird.

 

[Djent]

Duck Hunt is still bad, but that was hype...

 

[Jaguar360]

@ LiteralGrill
Gunner is definitely hurt by 1111. Very little doubt in my eyes.

Their defaults are Samus's Charge Shot, A strange version of PK Fire, A strange version of Palutena's Rocket Jump, and a shine. now, while I play a set not on the Custom Moveset Project (Mid/Small 3331, and that's for another time), I can at least comment on how they are affected.

For neutral specials, we have Charge Blast (literally Samus's Charge Shot), Lazer Blaze (a decent neutral special not unlike Falco's 3rd Neutral, Burst Blaster), and Grenade Launch (an incredible and fantastic special move with heavy utility). Grenade Launch's utility extends far beyond Charge Blast, working with stage control and offstage pressure. The fact that it can turn mid charge is great, too.

Side wise, the special utility is much more balanced. Flame Pillar (a PK-Fire esque move that has one hit, but deals decent knockback), Stealth Burst (think Din's Fire, but horizontal and more powerful), and Gunner Missile (literally Samus's Missile). While I prefer the 3rd, I can definitely say that each of these has good utilities for different situations.

Up wise, we get Lunar Launch (a weak recovery a bit like Rocket Jump that dunks victims below Gunner), Cannon Uppercut (actually like Palutena's Rocket Jump with low recovery), and Arm Rocket (a nondamaging move like the Pit Duo's Power of Flight). Each has their own uses, hence the coverage listed on the Custom Moveset Project.

Lastly, Down. Echo Reflector (literally just a shine), Bomb Drop (a small bomb launch which works pretty well with Grenade Launch and/or Gunner Missile), and Absorbing Vortex (literally PSI Magnet). Each of these has pretty decent uses depending on your other moves, so I usually prioritize this one last when I select a set.

Just chiming in to say that Charge Blast is notably weaker than Samus' Charge Shot. I agree that Gunner hurt a ton by 1111, mainly by the loss of Grenade Launch and, to an extent, Bomb Drop along with Flame Pillar's general mediocrity. Gunner's zoning game becomes much weaker when his/her only ranged moves are Charge Blast, Flame Pillar, F-air and F-smash (and U-air, but that's vertical).

 

[Charoite]

Tyrant obliterate dakpo in their third set.

 

[Djent]

So...Tyrant vs. Dakpo made vs. look more even-but-volatile than actually bad. Tyrant couldn't clutch out a kill once he got ZSS to high-% game 1, but his strings which converted from mid-% games 2 and 3 led to shuttle loop kills. Meanwhile ZSS struggled to hit MK (much like Pika) but was also able to use her mobility + range to fend him off for a time (until he got the DA conversions). This seems like a MU that swings to "effective 7:3" when one player is a bit better, but is more like 5:5 in theory land.

UPDATE: It looks like 6WX BEAT ESAM!!!

 

[Charoite]

Welp 6WX wins against ESAM, thoughts??

 

[Djent]

Pretty sure his is ESAM's 1st loss to , which probably says something about the optimal playstyle for the MU.

 

[|RK|]

Larry Lurr just double two-stocked False. Absolutely incredible.

 

[Pazx]

I've been thinking this for awhile (since Shaya's "overtuned" comments about Ness and Falcon) but one of Fox's moves in particular does too much damage. Larry just took False to 57% with 4 (3?) uairs. And it kills. Edit: I just saw it do 20% which means it does at least 19.something% when fresh.

Larry is obviously an absolute top player but matches like that are what makes me think Fox is on the same level as ZSS.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I've been thinking this for awhile (since Shaya's "overtuned" comments about Ness and Falcon) but one of Fox's moves in particular does too much damage. Larry just took False to 57% with 4 (3?) uairs. And it kills. I think it's 18% fresh?

Larry is obviously an absolute top player but matches like that are what makes me think Fox is on the same level as ZSS.

Fox is too fast, too FURRYOUS

You know you like that ****.

 

[TriTails]

Fox's U-air does 16% so...

 

[Vipermoon]

Fox's U-air does 16% so...

And I can't understand why in a game that does such low damage.

 

[Zannabluke]

esam's out, lost to slayerz