Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Routa]

I think it's just years of conditioning that's made us associate "bottom tier" with "garbage". This is part of the reason I don't like tier lists that insist on having a large number of tiers, because that implies a degree of separation between each group that may or may not actually exist. (Honestly, what's the difference between A and A-? Or A- and B+?)

I'm 100% sure I will get a warning, 'cause I have gotten a warning everytime I have brought this thing up.

<.<
>.>


But seriously it is almost impossible to make a trier list which everyone is able to agree with. No matter who you put a bottom tier people will whine. "AMG! ZORLDO ISNTI WÖRST!"... But why wouldn't we seriously jump from Tier list system into something less butthurt magnet? MU spread system? Viability within different playstyles? There are alternatives you know... But till then we shall listen about 80% of Smash community whine about their mains being too low.

 

[TriTails]

Tuned in Paragon's stream, and saw D3 2 stocking a MK.

Tell me if this is normal or not before I freak out.

 

[Gawain]

I was mocked for considering pre-nerf Sheik to be roughly pre-nerf Diddy's equal

That's because this place is often a bandwagon of "greater numbers means I'm right". People just didn't explore early Sheik that much for some reason.

 

[Rizen]

What do you guys think of Game and Watch? I feel like he's too much glass and not enough cannon. I see him not ranked as low tier so he must have something going for him.

 

[Trifroze]

I really hesitate to put Sheik in any separate "S" tier. There is a statistically significant gap between her and the runner-ups, but I cringe every time I see the dialogue slipping down the slope toward talking about Sheik like she is Melee Fox, Brawl MK, or even previous patch Diddy.

I was mocked for considering pre-nerf Sheik to be roughly pre-nerf Diddy's equal, and I'll flip a table before we start implicitly talking like a worse character than that is some godly S-tier.

Isn't Sheik exactly like Brawl MK though? No perceived bad matchups, some are almost even or possibly even but they unanimously destroy everyone below the top/high, and while they can both be beaten by other good characters very realistically they usually still end up taking the tournament.

A pre 1.0.6 hypothesis for Sheik was also that she will improve as time goes on as she has quite a lot of depth and might eventually develop into a stronger character than Diddy. The fact that other characters from the top have been nerfed along with Sheik (mainly Sonic, Diddy, Rosalina, Luigi) also makes the overall situation change much less, especially when neutral is Sheik's main strength and remains unchanged.

 

[Jamurai]

Tuned in Paragon's stream, and saw D3 2 stocking a MK.

Tell me if this is normal or not before I freak out.

Not normal. The MK was... meh. If he converted his Uairs properly he would have 2-0'd the D3 but hey ho.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Right, I'm not especially interested in debating the exact lower positions--I was just surprised at the placement of Bowser.



I really hesitate to put Sheik in any separate "S" tier. There is a statistically significant gap between her and the runner-ups, but I cringe every time I see the dialogue slipping down the slope toward talking about Sheik like she is Melee Fox, Brawl MK, or even previous patch Diddy.

I was mocked for considering pre-nerf Sheik to be roughly pre-nerf Diddy's equal, and I'll flip a table before we start implicitly talking like a worse character than that is some godly S-tier.

My reasoning for putting Sheik in S is that she's basically the undisputed top tier character right now. If she had serious competition for that spot then that would make the A tier, but as it is, it's her on top then everyone else in some ill-defined order.

If it makes you feel any better, we could call her tier "Top" then below that have "High", "Mid", and "Low" tiers.

 

[warionumbah2]

Tell me if this is normal or not before I freak out.

If you have more range than MK you pretty much win by default. All the sword users dominate MK as well.

 

[Thinkaman]

If it makes you feel any better, we could call her tier "Top" then below that have "High", "Mid", and "Low" tiers.

It's been established that I'm a grumbling old man who undoubtedly will find issue with any possible tier labels. Alas.

 

[DunnoBro]

@ DunnoBro can you offer any sort of hypothesis?

Duck hunt's smashes are just ****ty design

He also has a true combo into usmash at KILLING PERCENTS off clay pigeon, but since usmash doesn't connect properly on an opponent in the air, it doesn't go into the strong hit 90% of the time.

It's also an insanely difficult set-up that's only possible with the A + B = smash set-up. (Because it lets you shoot the frisbee and smash sooner)

 

[Ffamran]

I think it's just years of conditioning that's made us associate "bottom tier" with "garbage". This is part of the reason I don't like tier lists that insist on having a large number of tiers, because that implies a degree of separation between each group that may or may not actually exist. (Honestly, what's the difference between A and A-? Or A- and B+?)

As far as I'm concerned we have Sheik in S, a large blob of characters that can reasonably function in a tournament in A, an even larger blob of characters that are by no means bad but just fall short of "you can totally win with me" in B, and then Zelda and co. at the bottom in C.

</minirant>

Not only that, but a character's past can haunt them as well. Who does that reminds you of? Zelda, Samus, Ganondorf, and Ike. It doesn't even have to be between games or from past games. It can happen because of recent opinions from top players or otherwise. Case in point: Leona Heidern in The King of Fighters XIII and quoting Juicebox FGC:

"Leona is, in my opinion, one of the most misunderstood characters in KoF XIII. At the very beginning, a handful of good players who are my personal friends, The Answer, Bala, and Romance, they made a preliminary tier list and they put Leona at the very bottom spot. Since then, she has this sort of bottom tier... this sort of bottom tier air that seems to have followed her around on the forums and other things. I don't necessarily think she is a top tier character, but I absolutely would say she is nowhere near the absolute bottom. She has to at least be mid-low for what Leona has and I'm going to show you what Leona has in this video."​

Who does that remind you of? Falco, Marth, and Meta Knight. Along with Zelda, Samus, Ganondorf, etc., first impressions can and will kill characters. You can't get rid of past opinions that are plastered and archived or spread, believed, and internalized by others. Those are memes. No, not the stupid **** that people do like using kappa emoticons, saying "based", repeating phrases like "Roy's our boy", "that ain't Falco", "hoo hah", "beep-boop", and "ding dong", or talking about "dank may-mays". I'm referring to "an idea, behavior, style, or usage that spreads from person to person within a culture". That is what meme truly means. Smash is a culture and we as a culture have memes. With the internet, memes spread quickly such as the idea that if a character cannot D-throw to combo or even throw to combo, they're worthless or the increased usage of Diddy early on when people figured he was a bit too powerful which lead to cookie cutter Diddy players using setups they don't understand. Literally monkey see, monkey do.

Our meme is that bottom tier characters are worthless, hopeless, and easy to overcome. Our meme is that if a character loses something that defined them despite gaining new definitions whether found or not, they are marginally much worse. Our meme is that combos are much more important than reliable damage per hit. Our meme is that select characters are just bad and nothing can change that despite evidence against that idea. Our meme is that characters that are not clearly top or high tier are ultimately a waste of time. Our meme is that - I blame our younger and unorganized culture for this - defensive play or elements of defensive play such as zoning is camping, poor play, spam, and evidence of a lack of skill. Our meme is when something is not understood, it is either bad, poor game design, or "jank" - I hate this word. This is our culture. Don't like it? Deal with it. Or... try to change it.

Sources: Juicebox's Leona video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL0ae93IMa4.

The early KoF XIII tier list in question: http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof...ppj7fjm4pnl6ghy8cad6ke76jd32y9c2z7c4qb62y-bk6. I'm not sure if this is "ordered" other than the "tiers", but notice how Leona's completely isolated. This was an early tier list and from top players. Not just 1 player like if only ESAM isolated 1 character, but 3 top players. That's like if Zero, Nairo, and Mr. R agreed that Lucina should be isolated below everyone.

 

[Shaya]

If I could switch Bowser and WiiFit trainer, that would be perfect

Last time around Bowser did not get listed anywhere I believe, this time he did get a few but still less than what I set the cut off.
WiiFit trainer was a near unanimous bottom ten in version 1 and this time dipped to sub 60% inclusion. The later the list came in, the less likely they were to include WiiFit.

I have also noted to people "struggling to wrap out bottom ten, huh?" _Bowser_... just a little.
As a lot of characters have been buffed, bottom is becoming more about design than the numbers associated. And with that in mind.... the worse characters are likely to be the ones we've seen in [basically] every game thus far: Zelda, Bowser, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff and Samus. Even if I don't think Zelda/Samus are abysmal, they don't have much to argue being higher than others who aren't abysmal either.

I suppose I could make a minor edit to make "bottom" a clean 20. But I don't know if I should/will.

-

Also with Robin and DK's results perking up with the latest buffs, and one of their main changes are a hard throw punish which works on a specific niche of characters which have ended up top tier.
For the first time I'm wondering whether we're actually getting balance changes not for holistic strength but to advance the number of 'natural' checks to the best characters they're likely aware of.

We may start to see more effort not towards weakening top characters and "blindly" strengthening weaker ones.

 

[Radical Larry]

So, anyone want to tell me their opinion on Link?
Is he a solid middle tier? High tier? Or maybe High Mid or Low High?

 

[hypersonicJD]

I have been thinking about some stuff lately. And I have been losing so many times in these days. I have studied every single strategy and move from the tourney titants: ZeRo, Seagull Joe, 6WX, Ryo, Sol, Feel Tension, Nakat, Nairo. And I can't still defeat my friend. I don't tend to repeat too many moves. But then I choke every single time I need to take the final stock. And my friend is like a FG player. I have introduced him to ladder and he even got silver in a matter of days. I don't know if he's better than me, or i'm just really bad. I don't even know. Any advice for my smash play? And he mostly uses Zero Suit Samus, Donkey Kong and Charizard. And I have used Sonic, Zero Suit, Mario, Lucas, Captain Falcon and still can't win.

I really would love some help.

And Link is middle tier for me. He has good rewards from his grab, can end stocks easily with Forward Smash or Up Smash. The only issue with him is that he doesn't have such a good get off me tool to get rid of combo characters like Fox, Captain Falcon, Sheik, Zero Suit Samus or Falco (I think Falco is a combo character. Don't know if i'm wrong).

 

[Rizen]

So, anyone want to tell me their opinion on Link?
Is he a solid middle tier? High tier? Or maybe High Mid or Low High?

Link's where he belongs in the OP: bottom 18. He gets good reward and isn't bottom 10 but has slow frame data, poor mobility, a slow grab and has to use complex setups with projectiles to land hits.

 

[Ffamran]

Also with Robin and DK's results perking up with the latest buffs, and one of their main changes are a hard throw punish which works on a specific niche of characters which have ended up top tier.
For the first time I'm wondering whether we're actually getting balance changes not for holistic strength but to advance the number of 'natural' checks to the best characters they're likely aware of.

We may start to see more effort not towards weakening top characters and "blindly" strengthening weaker ones.

Just got me thinking, but wouldn't making more natural checks to the best characters the developers are aware of also hurt similar character? For example, Fox getting punished hard by Robin and DK's throw punishes also means Falco gets affected and he's not one of the best characters. Even Little Mac could be considered similar as he's another lightweight fast faller with poor air speed - well, technically control - like Fox and Falco. Granted, at least he fights differently, but he's still going to get affected like Falco. This might be a character specific thing, though... Lucina and Dark Pit being really similar to Marth and Pit doesn't really mean much, but Falco and Dr. Mario getting affected because of their similar traits to Fox and Mario. Ganondorf having much lower air speed, but similar aerials to Captain Falcon can be considered, but Captain Falcon's air speed is different enough where...

 

[Illuminose]

I'll elaborate more because I guess my post didn't really explain anything.

Maybe, theoretically, "technically", "optimal play"-wise, Lucario does not have a favorable matchup against Sheik. If you manage to avoid everything that Lucario does and get a clean first stock, then of course it's not going to work out in Lucario's favor In practice though, it tends to work out a bit differently. Yes, Lucario loses neutral kinda bad until he has a bit of aura to work with. However, Lucario at the very least can make you have to be a little more careful with needles. This is because you can get hit with a charged aura sphere if the Lucario has a read on your needles. That aside, Lucario does have some pretty good grab combos on Sheik to rack up damage, so it isn't like Lucario can't do anything to Sheik until he has some aura. Watch any good Lucario play. For a character that is supposedly worthless until aura, Lucario can rack up damage pretty effectively and has some decent movement tricks with aura sphere to cross people up/be evasive.

Let's say Sheik takes an early lead and gets Lucario somewhere in the realm of 90-100%. Here's the issue: Sheik is just about at kill percent no matter what lead she has. Aura charge -> up smash is a looming threat, back air is a looming threat, Force Palm is a looming threat...these moves kill so early AND Sheik probably isn't killing Lucario very fast because she likely isn't working with much rage unless she just got straight outplayed at early percents. Lucario can kill her and Sheik doesn't have the rage to kill Lucario earlier than 120-125% (Lucario is kinda heavy). Lucario from about 90-120% has the aura to kill Sheik early and isn't in a range where the down throw 50/50 is important (don't air dodge, take the up air if they go straight for it, move on). If Sheik doesn't get a down throw 50/50 kill connection, she's in so much danger. One slip up against Lucario can easily mean death, which is especially difficult for Sheik because she can't just kill Lucario that easily as she doesn't really have an easy time killing.

Lucario isn't a very highly used character, but we have some proof of concept in this case. Shiny taking a game from ZeRo's Sheik, forcing a switching to Diddy and Day beating K9 2-0 are two examples. There's also Kamicario beating ZeRo in a serious friendlies set, though that's kind of blegh to count, but it still happened (one does not simply beat ZeRo).

I think it's somewhere in the realm of 55:45-60:40 Lucario favor. Nothing crazy, but there's an advantage here.

 

[Ghostbone]

Sheik can time lucario out pretty easily on Duck Hunt/Town and City, maybe Delfino, assuming she gets a stock lead.
Lucario can't kill you till around 170% with sweetspot uair so you just bouncing fish around and get hit for like 4% every 30 seconds.

I feel like if people actually play super lame vs lucario he'll have a harder time, but this is assuming Sheik gets the first stock, and it's stage specific, so not super relevant.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Are people still saying Shiek cant kill?
Because she has true combos into Bouncing Fish off of lagless moves (Nair and Fair) and Dthrow 50-50s.

I think Shiek's real weakness is that so many people play her that almost everyone knows the matchup.

 

[Jehtt]

Sheik has a sort of "melee marth" syndrome where, if her opponent gets past a certain percent, it becomes harder for her to kill because her kill combos and 50/50s disappear.

 

[Ghostbone]

Are people still saying Shiek cant kill?
Because she has true combos into Bouncing Fish off of lagless moves (Nair and Fair) and Dthrow 50-50s.

I think Shiek's real weakness is that so many people play her that almost everyone knows the matchup.

Sheik can kill, but she still kills late, which leads to lucario getting a lot of aura every stock.
Like Mario can similarly get stocks reliably with up-smash (even then, still earlier than Sheik's d-throw and bouncing fish setups), but then he also has f-smash or even dunks which completely bypass aura.

Sheik always has to deal with aura, that hurts her in the matchup, but natural disparity in the two character's strengths leads to Lucario basically going even rather than having a large advantage.

 

[Shaya]

Just got me thinking, but wouldn't making more natural checks to the best characters the developers are aware of also hurt similar character? For example, Fox getting punished hard by Robin and DK's throw punishes also means Falco gets affected and he's not one of the best characters. Even Little Mac could be considered similar as he's another lightweight fast faller with poor air speed - well, technically control - like Fox and Falco. Granted, at least he fights differently, but he's still going to get affected like Falco. This might be a character specific thing, though... Lucina and Dark Pit being really similar to Marth and Pit doesn't really mean much, but Falco and Dr. Mario getting affected because of their similar traits to Fox and Mario. Ganondorf having much lower air speed, but similar aerials to Captain Falcon can be considered, but Captain Falcon's air speed is different enough where...

In previous games Sakurai has mentioned intent of designing characters with a "fair" distribution of advantaged/weakened match ups. So while it's impacting on weaker characters, that doesn't mean they won't see further buffs or given similar styled buffs (Falco having a faster laser would make the DK match up more than most, for example; although I feel like Falco had advantages on DK and Robin prior to this patch anyway... so eh, I think he's fine with it; Doc probably didn't do too badly in either of those match ups either (maybe awkward against DK?).


---

Also I edited the OP slightly. I suppose 15% frequency isn't exactly inconclusive in contrast to 1 point in both sides/zeroes; although I've clarified they are higher than the other eight near them in the condensed list.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I have been thinking about some stuff lately. And I have been losing so many times in these days. I have studied every single strategy and move from the tourney titants: ZeRo, Seagull Joe, 6WX, Ryo, Sol, Feel Tension, Nakat, Nairo. And I can't still defeat my friend. I don't tend to repeat too many moves. But then I choke every single time I need to take the final stock. And my friend is like a FG player. I have introduced him to ladder and he even got silver in a matter of days. I don't know if he's better than me, or i'm just really bad. I don't even know. Any advice for my smash play? And he mostly uses Zero Suit Samus, Donkey Kong and Charizard. And I have used Sonic, Zero Suit, Mario, Lucas, Captain Falcon and still can't win.

I really would love some help.

And Link is middle tier for me. He has good rewards from his grab, can end stocks easily with Forward Smash or Up Smash. The only issue with him is that he doesn't have such a good get off me tool to get rid of combo characters like Fox, Captain Falcon, Sheik, Zero Suit Samus or Falco (I think Falco is a combo character. Don't know if i'm wrong).

Solo main sonic for now (you can have a pocket character though) and warm up with lvl 3 CPU punching bags before you fight.

 

[Ffamran]

In previous games Sakurai has mentioned intent of designing characters with a "fair" distribution of advantaged/weakened match ups. So while it's impacting on weaker characters, that doesn't mean they won't see further buffs or given similar styled buffs (Falco having a faster laser would make the DK match up more than most, for example; although I feel like Falco had advantages on DK and Robin prior to this patch anyway... so eh, I think he's fine with it; Doc probably didn't do too badly in either of those match ups either (maybe awkward against DK?).

Yeah, but I'm just wondering and worried that because if they follow through with checking select characters, but don't take into account how severe it can affect the similar, semi-clone, shoto, similar physics, etc., characters, then it's going to be bad. So, DK being able to cargo U-throw to Uair kill Sheik is fine since Zelda's a floaty and she might be able to escape it unlike fast faller Sheik, but then you have Fox/Falco, Captain Falcon/Ganondorf, or even Falco/Little Mac and that worry comes up where some changes that aren't accounting for everyone could end up checking a character and making life much worse for another.

Patches exist, but we still end up assuming changes will happen to whatever character. Let's say worse case scenario is they patch it so more characters can match Fox and in a very selective way like targeting his lightweight and fast fall speed. So, something like DK's cargo U-throw for say, 20 characters. Here's the thing, other lightweight fast fallers will be affected, but if that ends up making it so Fox is mid tier, they could end up dragging Falco down to bottom tier because of Fox and Falco's similar physics. It wouldn't be like making more characters match Fox, but still keeping other characters kind of out of it in a detrimental way.

As for Falco vs. DK and Robin. Nobody really knows, but it wasn't something where Falco went from even or slightly disadvantaged to severely disadvantaged. It just made Falco even more of a precise character since one mistake now can kill him harder than Fox who has some leeway through his options and some of which were made a bit better because Falco wasn't targeted for patch 1.1.0.

 

[Asdioh]

So about that Sheik vs Kirby thing... Chudat's Kirby just played Zex, but he isn't as good was in Brawl he messed so much stuff up. Kept trying uptilt->upair strings instead of going for the guaranteed upsmash, which made him lose a bunch of % and get punished.
That said, Dthrow->Upair seems to be a guaranteed kill at some percents, so that's... really unpleasant.
Yeh the Sheik ditto afterward showed the same results

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'm not sure if this will get popular and I honestly need to make my wife hate me by labing with me for hours (I'll have to find a way to repay her) but that whole resting people out of jabs things we talked about a while back with Jigglypuff? It's real and LOTS of fun.

Yes you can REST SHEIK OUT OF RAPID JAB <3 I'm pretty sure this can be done out of just about any rapid jab if timed right (needs more testing). It can also be done out of a bunch of multi hit moves. If someone got this down a lot of characters could lose some decent parts of their arsenals. Feel free to try and jab cancel too, you'll just make it easier to land it.

Here's the kicker: you can perfect shield - rest certain moves. Sheild then ONE FRAME and boom. This only works on poorly spaced moves or moves that oput out the character's hurtbox a bit (but that's actually more moves than you'd think). This CAN BE DONE AGAINST SHEIK'S FAIR IF YOU ARE A GOD. It may be a bit because off spacing, but wouldn't it be nice to kill sheik for her attacking you? I'd sure love it.

As implied by it's name Perfect Resting kinda requires frame perfection. But the reward is killing someone for attacking you. I promise that if I can beg my wife I'll make an epic guide with each move this can be done to. Maybe even with video. The only real issue is I doubt anyone will actually take the time to learn this properly when there's easier characters that can be destructive. So will it move Jiggs around? Meh.

 

[Djent]

GimR vs. SlayerZ was easily the best set of the night so far.

 

[Asdioh]

Yeah I haven't been watching long, but I saw some sheiks, a kirby, a palu, bowser, g&w, peach so far... interesting tourney so far! Though admittedly it's still pools.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think lucario overall loses to sheik, but there's a few variables that gives lucario an edge:

1: Natural character traits. (Lucario's potency at high percent and sheik's kill %s average higher than most characters leads to negating sheik's lead.)
2: Being so niche allows a lot of unfamiliarity and random neutral wins.
3: Large blastzones benefit lucario. (Slimmer margins for when the sheik 50/50s kill)

I can see lucario beating sheik on FD for sure, and maybe battlefield and duck hunt.

Furthermore, while I think even if lucario and sheik were even ON THEIR FIRST STOCKS it's clear that sheik gains and keeps momentum much better than lucario.

Lucario gets the lead with a rage kill, lucario is still at kill % and sheik has less rage to set up better.
When sheik gets the lead on lucario, she's generally at low percent. And while the mechanic of being a stock down = more power helps, sheik will still be probably be able to extend her lead a LOT.

Essentially characters like jigglypuff, lucario, and pacman have inherent designs that SHOULD counter a character like sheik. (aggressive combo character that kills late) But in the end, sheik is just too superior of a character overall for her to actually lose to them.

 

[PK Gaming]

I missed it, but aparently Dath floored a Japanese Sheik player

bueno

 

[wedl!!]

GimR vs. SlayerZ was easily the best set of the night so far.

What happened? I didn't see it.

If SlayerZ lost I'm gonna cry because that MU is so easy

 

[TriTails]

Is the Smash 4 singles over at Paragon?

I wish Luigis would start popping out a lot more. I don't think there's any Luigi rep there (Poltergust? Maybe?).

 

[Blue Banana]

What happened? I didn't see it.

If SlayerZ lost I'm gonna cry because that MU is so easy

SlayerZ won against GimR, 2-1.

 

[Djent]

What happened? I didn't see it.

If SlayerZ lost I'm gonna cry because that MU is so easy

Nah, he clutched it out. GimR won a narrow game 1 off a high-% trade, SlayerZ 2-stocked him game 2 ending with a Stitch kill, then narrowly won game 3 by punishing GimR's overextensions (including an off-the-top Parasol kill).

 

[Radical Larry]

Link's where he belongs in the OP: bottom 18. He gets good reward and isn't bottom 10 but has slow frame data, poor mobility, a slow grab and has to use complex setups with projectiles to land hits.

Bottom 18 is highly underestimating Link to a whole new degree. He's more along the lines of between the 20 to 30 spots, but nowhere near the bottom 20 characters. I just cannot even see it happening with him; although he does need the right kind of person to make people know he's not that bad, but thanks to the Smash Paradigm about Link being low tier, it'll be hard to even see that happening.

First off, his slow frame data is nothing when most of his attacks come out relatively fast, and the hitboxes linger. Second, he has a huge disjoint with his sword, and his D-Throw is pretty amazing with combo setups. His grab is actually the fastest tether grab in the game, no less, and has absurd range to boot. And complex set ups aren't necessarily a bad thing, because Link can use these setups to make it random on what he's going to dish out next.

Then there's his great ability to gimp and edge-guard opponents with N-Air, him having a U-Air that will linger so long it will hit an air dodge character, his U-Smash and D-Smash being able to have decent kill percents, and Link benefiting from Rage.

Link is that character who benefits from Rage because his combo ability is not harmed by the knockback buffs. It's actually better for Link to have Rage because he can really combo better from D-Throw > U-Smash on various characters. And with the increase in buffs and hitstun on opponents, Link's able to combo even better with any upwards attack, such as U-Smash and U-Air.

He's a complex character at first, but when you get to learn and really, really play him, Link would not seem bottom 18, nor bottom 25, but rather, in the top 20 to 30 range (30 not being a part of the bottom 25).

 

[Jehtt]

First off, his slow frame data is nothing when most of his attacks come out relatively fast

???

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm not sure if this will get popular and I honestly need to make my wife hate me by labing with me for hours (I'll have to find a way to repay her) but that whole resting people out of jabs things we talked about a while back with Jigglypuff? It's real and LOTS of fun.

Yes you can REST SHEIK OUT OF RAPID JAB <3 I'm pretty sure this can be done out of just about any rapid jab if timed right (needs more testing). It can also be done out of a bunch of multi hit moves. If someone got this down a lot of characters could lose some decent parts of their arsenals. Feel free to try and jab cancel too, you'll just make it easier to land it.

Here's the kicker: you can perfect shield - rest certain moves. Sheild then ONE FRAME and boom. This only works on poorly spaced moves or moves that oput out the character's hurtbox a bit (but that's actually more moves than you'd think). This CAN BE DONE AGAINST SHEIK'S FAIR IF YOU ARE A GOD. It may be a bit because off spacing, but wouldn't it be nice to kill sheik for her attacking you? I'd sure love it.

As implied by it's name Perfect Resting kinda requires frame perfection. But the reward is killing someone for attacking you. I promise that if I can beg my wife I'll make an epic guide with each move this can be done to. Maybe even with video. The only real issue is I doubt anyone will actually take the time to learn this properly when there's easier characters that can be destructive. So will it move Jiggs around? Meh.

Perfect Rest is not an immediate rest. After a perfect shield (PS window is frames 1-3) you are still stuck in shield for the 11 frames but the 7 frame shield drop lag is removed

 

[Locke 06]

Perfect Rest is not an immediate rest. After a perfect shield (PS window is frames 1-3) you are still stuck in shield for the 11 frames but the 7 frame shield drop lag is removed.

What? No.

Shield lock is removed, shield push back is negated, and you can drop shield instantly. You can cancel your 7 frame shield drop animation with a normal, special, or jump.

I want to see PS TSRK's Ryus. Make it happen.

 

[Vipermoon]

What? No.

Shield lock is removed, shield push back is negated, and you can drop shield instantly. You can cancel your 7 frame shield drop animation with a normal, special, or jump.

I want to see PS TSRK's Ryus. Make it happen.

I guess I remembered it wrong. Thanks.

 

[Locke 06]

I'd love to see more people take advantage of better Out of Powershield (OoPS) options instead of seeing powershield>grab.

Run>powershield>utilting characters before their jab 2 comes out brings out the evil smile in me.

Ryu and puff should be able to PS punish any multi-hits that's not disjointed (Mario's DAir lol)

Best part about PS punishes is that I'd you whiff the PS, you can just stay in shield.