Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[HFlash]

I know it's off topic, but I'm curious. Why do a lot of tier lists say that RegLink is better than Toon Link?

He has better mobility, faster projectiles, more reliable combo setups, and more reliable kill options.

TL moves are quicker, his bthrow kills early, has bomb kill confirms, better recovery, isn't a fast faller (so he gets combo'ed less) and I'm sure plenty of other things I am neglecting. Plus, I don't know if you saw the set, but a Mexican TL almost beat Mr. R in a set (like game 5, last hit situation). I'll add the link if I can find it.

Edit: Ok, that was easy to find, here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLLmUjWrzkU

 

[Emblem Lord]

yall still talking bout Marths's worthless grandchild?

 

[Blobface]

TL moves are quicker, his bthrow kills early, has bomb kill confirms, better recovery, isn't a fast faller (so he gets combo'ed less) and I'm sure plenty of other things I am neglecting. Plus, I don't know if you saw the set, but a Mexican TL almost beat Mr. R in a set (like game 5, last hit situation). I'll add the link if I can find it.

Edit: Ok, that was easy to find, here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLLmUjWrzkU

Just to clear up, Link doesn't fall fast, just barely faster than Mario in fact. He does however have a massive increase in his fastfall speed, more than any other character, which actually is helpful since it allows him to land so quickly.

He is still heavy and a big target though.

 

[Ffamran]

Just to clear up, Link doesn't fall fast, just barely faster than Mario in fact. He does however have a massive increase in his fastfall speed, more than any other character, which actually is helpful since it allows him to land so quickly.

He is still heavy and a big target though.

Y'know, this has been bugging me... What constitutes as a "floaty" and a "fast faller"? People call Marth and Lucina a floaty, but holy crap, if they're floaties then anyone who doesn't fall as fast as Mii Brawler and ZSS would all be floaties. That includes Link, Ike, Ganondorf, Ryu, Mario, Zelda, Jigglypuff, and the rest of the 43 characters who happen to fall slower than the 12 that don't. Do we even have a term for average fallers?

Then there's the misconception or confusion over fall speed and weight. There was a commentator who called Falco a heavy floaty. WHAT!? The irony of Smash is that all birds which includes Triple D, Falco, and kind of Duck Hunt Duck are all fast fallers.

 

[PK Gaming]

yall still talking bout Marths's worthless grandchild?

Marth's worthless great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandchild

Get it right

 

[HFlash]

Just to clear up, Link doesn't fall fast, just barely faster than Mario in fact. He does however have a massive increase in his fastfall speed, more than any other character, which actually is helpful since it allows him to land so quickly.

He is still heavy and a big target though.

According to Kurogane's frame data page, Mario is ranked 26-30th, Link is 20-22, and Tink 48th (referring to fall speed, NOT fast fall speed). I guess the politically correct way of phrasing the previous post was to say Tink is extremely floaty, so he doesn't get combo'd, but I think it's safe to say that if your fall speed is well above the top half in the case and the fast fall speed is 3rd (Tink is again 48th here) to call them fast fallers. Semantics I guess, but it would be productive to categorize and define some of the terms we throw around such as fast faller.

 

[Radical Larry]

So I've been testing out Little Mac lately and it seems like he can KO Punch out of the Jab Infinite somehow. I was playing Online Mode on a match with no lag, and a Little Mac player surprised me by doing jab and suddenly, KO Punch comes out of nowhere and just gets me without warning (note, I was playing as Mewtwo, a floaty, keep this in mind). So I went to Training Mode and found out there's a small time window where KO Punch can come out during or just after the end of the infinite. There should be more testing for me before coming with a conclusion.

That's not the only weird news, too, since Little Mac's KO Punch can actually have a "sourspot". What do I mean by this? Well, in another match very recently, I was fighting another Little Mac player and all of the sudden, he threw out KO Punch and yet the close up didn't show nor did any of the sound it'd usually make. All it was was a sound similar to Ganondorf's F-Air soundbyte from Melee (that deep rumbling sound), and the attack still did 36% damage, but with absolutely no hitlag on Little Mac.

The second one is the very weird thing, too, because it's possibly very specific to where it is, but if it's used right, Little Mac might just be able to use KO Punch without the risk of hitlag, should he hit it right.

It's all so weird that this is happening, and I haven't found a single explanation for these yet.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I know it's off topic, but I'm curious. Why do a lot of tier lists say that RegLink is better than Toon Link?

He has better mobility, faster projectiles, more reliable combo setups, and more reliable kill options.

Toon Link can't kill you reasonably if you shield and don't get grabbed backwards near the ledge.

If there's anything Link does not have problems doing, it's ending the stock easily. With Rage Link has a lot of medium strong attacks that become great KO options, including his U-throw, tilts, and basically all aerials. He also has Jab KO confirms and is actually incredibly good at edgeguarding, something TL can't really compare to. In several matchups he can combo D-throw or D-tilt into U-air as well, especially against fastfallers. Even in matchups where D-throw doesn't combo into U-air, the positional advantage from Link's D-throw by far outclasses basically any setup Toon Link has.

Link does have a below average negative state, but Toon Link's negative state isn't good either, arguably it's worse as Link actually has good aerials for protecting himself from below to get to the ground while Toon Link really can only bet on bomb tossing, and doesn't have a strong fastfall like Link to mix up his landing timing. Both of them have mediocre recoveries and struggle to make it back to the stage safely.

Also Toon Link's projectiles are bad, except Bombs which have stupid risk/reward. Link's projectiles aren't exactly amazing, but arrows do beat reaction time at long range, which is better than anything TL has for zoning.

Toon Link is a horrible horrible character that has one broken move (bombs). Link is overall a good character with many things going for him to balance out his weaknesses. To be serious though, basically nobody except debatably Samus wants Toon Link's moveset sans Bombs. For that matter imagine how ridiculously good (and for that matter, clearly much better than Toon Link) Zelda would be with TL's Bombs.

 

[LancerStaff]

Pit does not beat Marth and I can't believe you called it his "noticable advantage" (I am not noticing it). I don't know about Roy vs. Pit (and never have I seen it) but I don't see how it could be that bad (you called Roy HELPLESS here like wtf please don't exaggerate).

I was reluctant to call you out for this because I know how you can freakin argue Pit into the ground.

Marth and Pit are similar characters. Their reach, overall frame data, and offstage power are key aspects of both. But then Pit wins the neutral with arrows and nullifies Marth's offstage advantage with his recovery. That's not noticeable? I have a feeling you'll bring it up... Pit's recovery is linear, but crazy safe so long as you react properly. Dolphin Slash is more brute-forcing with speed, but it doesn't stop well-aimed arrows in this matchup. What I'm saying is that Pit is clearly at an advantage... Didn't say how much.

If the other sword characters dominate Roy, then Pit definitely does between his projectile and better combo game then most swordsmen. This isn't Brawl Pit... Smash 4 Pit is, really for real, on equal terms for range against Marth. Play Pit like Marth in the matchup and you'll win for the same reasons.

If you are a Pit main you are, by definition, a Dark Pit main too and vice versa. The same can't really be said about any other characters. For this reason, Pit and Dark Pit should be considered the same on a tier list. If you disagree, I ask you this:
Who is both better than Dark Pit and worse than Pit?
That is all.

I legitimately think Dark Pit is about a half tier lower then Pit because arrows are that important. Pit's arrows have similar applications to Sheik's Needles in where they beat most projectiles... Dark Pit's arrows are more like a slower and longer-ranged Water Shuriken.

But that's completely irrelevant since, as you said, they're effectively the same character. And they should be treated as such. Not by being next to each other, but by being in the same tier slot.

 

[TurboLink]

Toon Link can't kill you reasonably if you shield and don't get grabbed backwards near the ledge.

What's wrong with getting grabbed backwards near the ledge?

 

[A2ZOMG]

If the other sword characters dominate Roy, then Pit definitely does between his projectile and better combo game then most swordsmen. This isn't Brawl Pit... Smash 4 Pit is, really for real, on equal terms for range against Marth. Play Pit like Marth in the matchup and you'll win for the same reasons.

The FE cast (not including Robin) craps on Roy utterly, but mostly for very matchup specific reasons. Reasons being they can crouch a lot of Roy's most threatening aerials reliably AND punish him with superior ranged ground moves, and have a braindead way to gimp him in Counter.

While I would assume Pit probably benefits from crouching, I do not believe he has a braindead way to end Roy's stock.

What's wrong with getting grabbed backwards near the ledge?

B-throw gimmick kills by the ledge generally speaking shouldn't happen in competitive play due to how telegraphed and specific they are. TL's grab also is a tether and thus doesn't benefit from fast startup. It's noticeably harder for him to kill you with B-throw at reasonable percents if you don't fall for gimmicks by the ledge.

 

[Radical Larry]

I legitimately think Dark Pit is about a half tier lower then Pit because arrows are that important. Pit's arrows have similar applications to Sheik's Needles in where they beat most projectiles... Dark Pit's arrows are more like a slower and longer-ranged Water Shuriken.

But that's completely irrelevant since, as you said, they're effectively the same character. And they should be treated as such. Not by being next to each other, but by being in the same tier slot.

You know, if you think about it, Dark Pit actually KOs much faster than Pit because of Electroshock Arm's horizontal knockback compared to Pit's Upperdash Arm, which is terrible for high ceiling stages like Skyloft. Electroshock Arm, at the edge of a stage, is just perfect for KO opportunities, something Pit severely lacks in his own attack.

While Pit has his weaker, yet more controllable and faster arrows, Dark Pit still has not only the power, but also the Electroshock Arm having better KO capability than Upperdash Arm would ever. Otherwise, they are essentially the same character, but I believe Dark Pit is not a half tier lower than Pit, but I believe Dark Pit is just one spot above Pit, only because of Electroshock Arm's capability to KO faster than Upperdash Arm, especially on stages with higher ceilings and closer blast lines such as Final Destination, Battlefield and Smashville; it is much more effective on Smashville no less since it has the closest side blast zone.

And with customs on, Dark Pit's arrow issue is remedied obviously since he'll have more control with his arrows, which would just actually make him half a tier higher, in theory, than a customs Pit.

What's wrong with getting grabbed backwards near the ledge?

Think Ness, Sonic, Mewtwo, Donkey Kong, Ryu and Toon Link's Back Throws near the ledge of a stage going out of the stage. That's what he was referring to, and it's basically a dead zone for characters if the opponent even remotely gets that opportunity.

 

[Routa]

About Link's and TL's projectiles...

Both have good projectiles, but I think TL does have better ones. People claim that TL's arrows suck cause they aren't fast. Well the thing is that they should not be used like Needles or Water Shurikens, but more like Samus custom Missiles... They should be used as a walling tool. Due to Arrows slow moment, they are perfect tool to create a wall which enemy has to pass. Also with customs Fire Arrows become even better "disturbing too" (well I am not the best person to explain stuff, but lets say that TL's Bombs are also "disturbing tools"). So what do Link's arrows do? Well erm... Arrows aren't that good of a tool to Link as for TL.

Everyone knows that TL bombs > Link bombs, so let's not talk about them.

And... TL's Boomerang is a bit better than Link's due to being more reliable move cause of lasting hit box and lack of the wind effect.

 

[A2ZOMG]

But you can't even follow up TL's arrows. They don't do anything. Samus's custom missiles are actually good because they're a legitimate zoning threat with setups.

Link's arrows actually do something and can't just be beaten by perfect shielding on reaction. Link actually forces you to approach because you literally just can't hold shield on reaction to Link's arrows. Toon Link is pretty horrible in contrast at actually forcing you to approach. He just can make you shield with Bombs, but he can't actually threaten it reasonably.

TL's Boomerang can be a liability against reflectors, while Link's isn't, which actually matters against someone like Fox for instance who is a seriously good character. And for the record I'd pretty easily argue Link clearly does better against Fox than Toon Link thanks to buffs.

 

[LancerStaff]

The FE cast (not including Robin) craps on Roy utterly, but mostly for very matchup specific reasons. Reasons being they can crouch a lot of Roy's most threatening aerials reliably AND punish him with superior ranged ground moves, and have a braindead way to gimp him in Counter.

While I would assume Pit probably benefits from crouching, I do not believe he has a braindead way to end Roy's stock.

Throw off at like 50% > gimp lol. Pit's dash grab is great and his other approach options keep it from being obvious, and he has other means of getting him offstage like Dthrow > Fair/Bair, Dair/Dair chain > Fair/Bair, Dsmash or Ftilt. I mean, the stock is practically over once Roy's offstage.

You know, if you think about it, Dark Pit actually KOs much faster than Pit because of Electroshock Arm's horizontal knockback compared to Pit's Upperdash Arm, which is terrible for high ceiling stages like Skyloft. Electroshock Arm, at the edge of a stage, is just perfect for KO opportunities, something Pit severely lacks in his own attack.

While Pit has his weaker, yet more controllable and faster arrows, Dark Pit still has not only the power, but also the Electroshock Arm having better KO capability than Upperdash Arm would ever. Otherwise, they are essentially the same character, but I believe Dark Pit is not a half tier lower than Pit, but I believe Dark Pit is just one spot above Pit, only because of Electroshock Arm's capability to KO faster than Upperdash Arm, especially on stages with higher ceilings and closer blast lines such as Final Destination, Battlefield and Smashville; it is much more effective on Smashville no less since it has the closest side blast zone.

And with customs on, Dark Pit's arrow issue is remedied obviously since he'll have more control with his arrows, which would just actually make him half a tier higher, in theory, than a customs Pit.

You're right about the Electroshock being underestimated, but it's not exactly as clear-cut. If Dark Pit ends up on a stage with normal ceiling blastzones, then you might as well of picked Pit. On stages with low ceilings (which most high-tiers want, mind you) then Pit's absolutely better. Even if the ceiling is high then Pit has arrows to "fall back" on... Thing is that Fspecial KOs don't happen often since the move is fairly risky. Unless you're ahead and can afford a hit or are going for YOLO strats there's better KO moves. They both even have viable KO throws with Uthrow and Fthrow being great when the positioning is right.

And then another problem with small stages is that it has a major effect on their survival ability. They're only a few points away from Mario's weight, but their Uspecial is insane with how slow they fall and their jumps. Bottom blastzone depth also has a major effect on Dark Pit's offstage game... Yeah, Electroshock offstage is a thing. Don't take Dark Pit to N64 stages if you're DK, heh.

Guiding Bow I'd say is quite overrated. There's this thing I call arrow chaining... It goes like fullhop > arrow > second jump > arrow and so on. With Pit's default arrows he'll stay safely out of reach of most projectiles. Guiding Bow lands in the middle of the second arrow or so and gets the slower grounded bow animation. And the actual arrows are much slower and much harder to use offstage and against campers most of the time.

 

[Vipermoon]

Marth and Pit are similar characters. Their reach, overall frame data, and offstage power are key aspects of both. But then Pit wins the neutral with arrows and nullifies Marth's offstage advantage with his recovery. That's not noticeable? I have a feeling you'll bring it up... Pit's recovery is linear, but crazy safe so long as you react properly. Dolphin Slash is more brute-forcing with speed, but it doesn't stop well-aimed arrows in this matchup. What I'm saying is that Pit is clearly at an advantage... Didn't say how much.

If the other sword characters dominate Roy, then Pit definitely does between his projectile and better combo game then most swordsmen. This isn't Brawl Pit... Smash 4 Pit is, really for real, on equal terms for range against Marth.

I'm not seeing it. First of all, Pit's recovery is not a threat in any way so you're never at risk. It's not that hard to hit him once he starts it. I understand it's fast. But if I hit a Pit out of it once, I can keep doing it everytime he tries again until I finally kill him (or he goes for the stage and I punish the landing). Hell, I can drop down and DS him before he grabs the ledge if he's coming from below (as easy as it is with Fox). And Pit is good off-stage too with that Dair and multiple jumps. But did you just say a well-timed arrow will intercept Dolphin Slash? Bro, come on. The arrow can gimp the stuff that comes before DS (but good luck because a good Marth will save his double jump) but even if you hit him out of DS he'll just DS again.

As far as neutral goes, I don't believe Marth struggles against the arrows. This isn't project M. They aren't spammable against any character with decent speed. Otherwise, you leave Marth with many options...approaching with air dodges, dancing blade (which out prioritizes and outranges whatever he has), Nair (but can Pit can dash attack this), and the prescence of his tilts which are sooo good in this version of the game.

Then there's kill power. Marth's is WAY higher. Even without Fsmash.

I'll also mention that Marth tends to do well against characters with crappy air speed (both in theory and in my experience).

Play Pit like Marth in the matchup and you'll win for the same reasons.

Please explain this.

I'll continue this in a few hours, I have to get some shut-eye.

 

[PUK]

But you can't even follow up TL's arrows. They don't do anything. Samus's custom missiles are actually good because they're a legitimate zoning threat with setups.

Link's arrows actually do something and can't just be beaten by perfect shielding on reaction. Link actually forces you to approach because you literally just can't hold shield on reaction to Link's arrows. Toon Link is pretty horrible in contrast at actually forcing you to approach. He just can make you shield with Bombs, but he can't actually threaten it reasonably.

TL's Boomerang can be a liability against reflectors, while Link's isn't, which actually matters against someone like Fox for instance who is a seriously good character. And for the record I'd pretty easily argue Link clearly does better against Fox than Toon Link thanks to buffs.

Link boomerang against reflector is often a free kill don't say bs. At least he will lose stage control, and with he's terrible lack of escape most character can butcher him.
Tlink boomerang can have a circle trajectory with a hitbox all along while link can't do that.
Both arrow are garbage. Tlink can jab lock with them by the way. But custom off hitting B is a very bad idea.
Toon link faster run speed and dash attack (and bomb) actually make his grab more threatening in the neutral, even if link has a way better reward.

 

[SapphSabre777]

That nerf to Kirby's F-Smash makes the difference between it and the standard angle much worse. It used to kill around 20~30% earlier than the standard angle, now it's like... 8~10%, if not less. So... that nerf was really important.

Not to be THAT guy, but that 1% nerf to F-Smash is to the sourspot of it. The base damage to sweetspot (Up) F-Smash is still the same, it was the sourspot that was changed on the move (thank goodness).

In terms of comparing that to the hurtbox adjustment to Greninja, I'll let the others determine that. Just wanted to correct and clarify about that 1% change towards Kirby a patch or two ago.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Not to be THAT guy, but that 1% nerf to F-Smash is to the sourspot of it. The base damage to sweetspot (Up) F-Smash is still the same, it was the sourspot that was changed on the move (thank goodness).

In terms of comparing that to the hurtbox adjustment to Greninja, I'll let the others determine that. Just wanted to correct and clarify about that 1% change towards Kirby a patch or two ago.

Oh, then I tested incorrectly. I was going by 3DS data from back in the day. My bad!

 

[UberMadman]

Toon link faster run speed and dash attack (and bomb) actually make his grab more threatening in the neutral, even if link has a way better reward.

Link definitely gets a better reward at lower percents, but at higher percents, Toon Link actually gets the better reward because of how surprisingly good his backthrow is at killing.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Oh, then I tested incorrectly. I was going by 3DS data from back in the day. My bad!

It is interesting though, what with some people not knowing the exact changes to their character, and then the community just finding out about the shield hitstun change(or whatever it is called), that the true viability of characters based on data is a constant toss-up thanks to the lack of patch notes.

A part of me thinks that it actually hurts all the characters if this trend continues: really obscure or picky changes being discovered late after the patch or being misinterpreted or forgotten. It means "last minute" experience for the player AND the opponent, so it could possibly mean not being able to capitalize on a new playstyle or gameplan in a match-up with those changes, and that is really bad in terms of determining current viability and potential.

 

[meleebrawler]

Not when you have a frame 2 airdodge and teleport.
Probably not the worst but yeah it ain't great.

And Confusion. And fully charged shadow balls that send you rocketing away at distances that rival Ike's Quick Draw.
And good airspeed.

Really, unless your character has a great running speed, you'd better be damn good at predicting Mewtwo's movements if you want to punish his landings.

 

[TriTails]

I never get the 'X character struggles against arrows'. Yes, they are aimable. Yes, they have different path depending on what do you push. But unless it's fully charged it's not all that great. They aren't prepatch Luigi's Fireballs, they are not spammable by any means. You get hit? You take a massive amount of... uh, 3%? 6% for fully charged, perhaps?

Like, naaaaaah....

The only real thing I'm afraid of Pit's arrows is the fact they can snipe your double jump during your recovery and people know how I feel because I main the green plumber, but in neutral it isn't much of a threat. The end lag is a lot and even on percents where they start doing knockback Pit probably can't even follow up with anything, but I've yet to test this.

Perhaps if the arrows lasted longer, and you can aim them much more dynamically by angling them as such they can fly over your head and stab your back, then THAT's scary, but it isn't. But perhaps Pit mains can help me with this because I never find arrows to be quite a great projectile. It's good, but not great. DPit's? Even worse.

 

[LightLV]

Lol. These Lucina vs Marth "debates" sound exactly like how people used to argue about Roy vs Marth back then. Its even more funny when you consider that Roy himself is actually in the game as well, just luigified.

Though to be fair,the Roy v Marth debate still exists, it's just that the roles are reversed and they aren't as similar.

I personally think the Roy vs. Marth debate in this game is almost entirely reversed. I feel like Roy has the practical mechanic while Marth has the unnecessary one, off sweetspot hitboxes alone.

And again i don't really understand why Marth is mostly "meh" in the grand scheme of things, yet becomes what amounts to an S-tier character anytime someone brings up Lucina. It's like his hidden passive or something.

Marth: Desperate Tierreaching
-"Marth gains Little Mac levels of blockpush, shiek levels of safety on his moves, Ryu level combos and his sourspot literally disappears anytime someone brings up Lucina".

 

[Wintropy]

I never get the 'X character struggles against arrows'. Yes, they are aimable. Yes, they have different path depending on what do you push. But unless it's fully charged it's not all that great. They aren't prepatch Luigi's Fireballs, they are not spammable by any means. You get hit? You take a massive amount of... uh, 3%? 6% for fully charged, perhaps?

Like, naaaaaah....

The only real thing I'm afraid of Pit's arrows is the fact they can snipe your double jump during your recovery and people know how I feel because I main the green plumber, but in neutral it isn't much of a threat. The end lag is a lot and even on percents where they start doing knockback Pit probably can't even follow up with anything, but I've yet to test this.

Perhaps if the arrows lasted longer, and you can aim them much more dynamically by angling them as such they can fly over your head and stab your back, then THAT's scary, but it isn't. But perhaps Pit mains can help me with this because I never find arrows to be quite a great projectile. It's good, but not great. DPit's? Even worse.

If you use arrows in neutral or rely on them for damage, you're doing it wrong.

Pit's arrows are like Mario's fireballs or Pikachu's jolts: an embellishment to good fundamentals. You can use arrows to force an approach if you want to be coy about it or just pressure the opponent off-stage. I've even gotten a few kills by sniping the opponent at the blastzone and nudging them just off the edge!

But yeah, arrows are a very good projectile if you know how to use them. The endlag doesn't matter much if you use it judiciously (i.e. when there's no chance that your opponent can punish you for it), especially since it was reduced in the most recent patch. On top of that, the fact that they can be remotely aimed means you can get rather creative with your trick shots: it's good to just rack up a bit of extra damage and to remind the opponent, "I own this space, burden's on you to come to me."

Honestly, I think the arrows can be used more for the psychological benefit than anything. It can make your opponent think twice about how they will recover if there's a chance of a pointy blue projectile coming at them from the other side of the stage. That and more damage is always good. If you want to serve it in neutral, just fullhop arrow!

 

[Shaya]

Enough about the Marth/Roy/Lucina stuff -_-
...and aggressively exaggerating what others are saying.

 

[LightLV]

And thank god, people finally aren't calling Ganondorf a bloody clone.

In terms of source material and laziness...Ganondorf is one of the worst examples of a clone i've seen. He doesn't use his sword and has never fought as a brawler. That would be fine, but he has no magic in his moveset either. He can't float or transform. He's unique in the sense that his moveset properties are different, but as a Zelda character he makes no sense at all...which is odd, considering the series.

TBH, he would have made much better sense as a Zelda clone, at least specials wise. Even without the sword, in that sense he'd at least still resemble Ganondorf. But i'm almost positive that didn't happen in Melee because 1) Zelda's animations are very feminine, and 2) they would have to create a second character for his transformation

In-game though, no i wouldnt call him a clone

 

[TriTails]

If you use arrows in neutral or rely on them for damage, you're doing it wrong.

Pit's arrows are like Mario's fireballs or Pikachu's jolts: an embellishment to good fundamentals. You can use arrows to force an approach if you want to be coy about it or just pressure the opponent off-stage. I've even gotten a few kills by sniping the opponent at the blastzone and nudging them just off the edge!

But yeah, arrows are a very good projectile if you know how to use them. The endlag doesn't matter much if you use it judiciously (i.e. when there's no chance that your opponent can punish you for it), especially since it was reduced in the most recent patch. On top of that, the fact that they can be remotely aimed means you can get rather creative with your trick shots: it's good to just rack up a bit of extra damage and to remind the opponent, "I own this space, burden's on you to come to me."

Honestly, I think the arrows can be used more for the psychological benefit than anything. It can make your opponent think twice about how they will recover if there's a chance of a pointy blue projectile coming at them from the other side of the stage. That and more damage is always good. If you want to serve it in neutral, just fullhop arrow!

I am aware on its uses.

However, even if it's forcing approaches, it's simply not threatening enough to be a burden. There are more projectiles that puts pressure better like Fox's Blaster or Luigi's Fireballs. Angling the thing doesn't do much when most characters can just shield or just run straight at you, since the arrows can't go backwards. It's a good projectile, just there're better projectiles out there. They can force approaches, yes, but other projectiles can do this too, and some even have more uses (Fox's pestering you with constant damage, Luigi's forcing you to be fast on your reaction or else you might get grabbed, Sheik's forcing approaches while also being an invisible little thing that goes faster than a rocket while can also setups into her kill moves, etc). The end lag is a burden not because it's punishable (far from it), but the fact it prevents you from doing any meaningful folowups and the arrows alone don't give you much reward.

However, it's useful off-stage, yes. It's scary to think something stealing the momentum from your double jump... gah.

But that aside, I'm curious on what you can pull off with aimed arrows. Perhaps I've been underestimating this pointy energy-like thing that comes out of nowhere out of a golden sword-like bow.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

In terms of source material and laziness...Ganondorf is one of the worst examples of a clone i've seen. He doesn't use his sword and has never fought as a brawler. That would be fine, but he has no magic in his moveset either. He can't float or transform. He's unique in the sense that his moveset properties are different, but as a Zelda character he makes no sense at all...which is odd, considering the series.

TBH, he would have made much better sense as a Zelda clone, at least specials wise. Even without the sword, in that sense he'd at least still resemble Ganondorf. But i'm almost positive that didn't happen in Melee because 1) Zelda's animations are very feminine, and 2) they would have to create a second character for his transformation

In-game though, no i wouldnt call him a clone

I still think a good idea would be to give Ganon's current moveset to Black Shadow, and give Ganondorf a more faithful moveset. We would have an additional F-Zero rep and a proper Ganondorf,

 

[HFlash]

Link definitely gets a better reward at lower percents, but at higher percents, Toon Link actually gets the better reward because of how surprisingly good his backthrow is at killing.

Can Link link 3-4 utilts into Usmash for 40% at low percents? No, but Tink can. Hyuga actually does that vs. Mr. R in their set.

 

[TriTails]

I still think a good idea would be to give Ganon's current moveset to Black Shadow, and give Ganondorf a more faithful moveset. We would have an additional F-Zero rep and a proper Ganondorf,

I actually like Ganon's moveset.

I dunno. It's just the fact he has that big*** ams and legs make you go wtf if he didn't go fist-to-fist. Warlock Punch is a representation on how STRONG the King of Evil should be. Flame Choke represents the brutality, everything else is a proof on what you can get when you work that arms and legs out.

But perhaps people want originalty more, in which case I would be asking for my hammer in place of that Green Missile.

 

[NegaNixx]

So I've been testing out Little Mac lately and it seems like he can KO Punch out of the Jab Infinite somehow. I was playing Online Mode on a match with no lag, and a Little Mac player surprised me by doing jab and suddenly, KO Punch comes out of nowhere and just gets me without warning (note, I was playing as Mewtwo, a floaty, keep this in mind). So I went to Training Mode and found out there's a small time window where KO Punch can come out during or just after the end of the infinite. There should be more testing for me before coming with a conclusion.

That's not the only weird news, too, since Little Mac's KO Punch can actually have a "sourspot". What do I mean by this? Well, in another match very recently, I was fighting another Little Mac player and all of the sudden, he threw out KO Punch and yet the close up didn't show nor did any of the sound it'd usually make. All it was was a sound similar to Ganondorf's F-Air soundbyte from Melee (that deep rumbling sound), and the attack still did 36% damage, but with absolutely no hitlag on Little Mac.

The second one is the very weird thing, too, because it's possibly very specific to where it is, but if it's used right, Little Mac might just be able to use KO Punch without the risk of hitlag, should he hit it right.

It's all so weird that this is happening, and I haven't found a single explanation for these yet.

Are you talking about this?
https://youtu.be/GzhuS8K18Yo

 

[A2ZOMG]

Link boomerang against reflector is often a free kill don't say bs. At least he will lose stage control, and with he's terrible lack of escape most character can butcher him.
Tlink boomerang can have a circle trajectory with a hitbox all along while link can't do that.
Both arrow are garbage. Tlink can jab lock with them by the way. But custom off hitting B is a very bad idea.
Toon link faster run speed and dash attack (and bomb) actually make his grab more threatening in the neutral, even if link has a way better reward.

Link can also Jab lock with arrows, and on more characters. Link's arrows actually do something in neutral unlike TL's though, so they're actually situationally good projectiles that give him control over the game, while TL's are extremely pointless.

Link has by far the superior grab and Z-air though, so I wouldn't say TLink is actually better in neutral than him. They both have terrible midrange options outside of grab, just Link's grab is actually easier to land and more rewarding thus meaning he can actually get people to stop shielding (which is scary, because jumping against Link is insanely risky). Then there's Link's way superior Jab combo in close range too which is hard to approach past and also confirms into combos.

 

[LightLV]

Can Link link 3-4 utilts into Usmash for 40% at low percents? No, but Tink can. Hyuga actually does that vs. Mr. R in their set.

no...but he can grab you from backroll range and kill you with like 80% of his normals

made even worse by him being heavy and getting even more silly with rage

 

[Wintropy]

I am aware on its uses.

However, even if it's forcing approaches, it's simply not threatening enough to be a burden. There are more projectiles that puts pressure better like Fox's Blaster or Luigi's Fireballs. Angling the thing doesn't do much when most characters can just shield or just run straight at you, since the arrows can't go backwards. It's a good projectile, just there're better projectiles out there. They can force approaches, yes, but other projectiles can do this too, and some even have more uses (Fox's pestering you with constant damage, Luigi's forcing you to be fast on your reaction or else you might get grabbed, Sheik's forcing approaches while also being an invisible little thing that goes faster than a rocket while can also setups into her kill moves, etc). The end lag is a burden not because it's punishable (far from it), but the fact it prevents you from doing any meaningful folowups and the arrows alone don't give you much reward.

However, it's useful off-stage, yes. It's scary to think something stealing the momentum from your double jump... gah.

But that aside, I'm curious on what you can pull off with aimed arrows. Perhaps I've been underestimating this pointy energy-like thing that comes out of nowhere out of a golden sword-like bow.

Okay, let me put it to you this way:

Why are you judging the efficacy of arrows independent of Pit's entire moveset?

You're right, it doesn't have much use in itself. That isn't the point. If you're going to judge the move's potential in a vacuum, you're going to miss out on the context that the move operates in.

Of course there are better projectiles. Arrows aren't meant to be used in the same way that most other ranged options are. You aren't supposed to necessarily followup from it. You're supposed to use it in conjunction with the rest of Pit's playstyle; in other words, the arrows work best as a part of a greater whole.

That said, to answer your question: you can indeed do quite a few things with aimed arrows, perhaps in very different ways than you may expect. There's the self-evident "sniping off-stage" trick, which can be used to gimp an opponent's double-jump, force an airdodge at an inopportune moment, nudge the opponent off-stage if they're at the edge of the blastzone or just rack up extra damage; the fact that Pit can multi-jump between shots means he can jump, fire an arrow at a downward angle, jump, fire the next arrow and carry on to force the opponent to either shield or move, which is a good pressure tactic in itself; they can force slower opponents to approach if you can bait their shield to drop (this works especially well against heavies that don't intend to move, goodness knows why they'd think this is a good tactic, but it happens quite frequently); I've even played against opponents who'd shield on instinct when I fire a fullhop arrow, which you can followup with a tomahawk or fastfall d-air if you can get in their head. It's psychological: if you can get the opponent to freak out at this maze of arrows in front of them, you can force them to play at your own pace. This only really works on less skilled opponents or people who don't have an answer to arrows (shield doesn't mean much if Pit doesn't need to approach), but it's incredibly fun~

I don't think you've been underestimating them, you're pretty on point with what you say, but I don't think it's fair to say "arrows are sub-optimal because they're weaker than other projectiles". From a relative perspective, Sheik's needles beat just about everything, so it's really just a case of working with what you've got and making the most of your toolkit.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So I made an odd discovery that I can guarantee won't be competitively relevant (because it involves slowing time in training mode) but still unusual and unexpected.

Duck Hunt's smash attacks all hit twice per crosshair-aim-thingy when time is set to be slower than 1x. Dsmash in particular has a real hard time linking properly this way, but if all 3 hits connect then his smashes can easily do upwards of 30 damage like this. Like I said, odd.

@DunnoBro can you offer any sort of hypothesis?

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm not seeing it. First of all, Pit's recovery is not a threat in any way so you're never at risk. It's not that hard to hit him once he starts it. I understand it's fast. But if I hit a Pit out of it once, I can keep doing it everytime he tries again until I finally kill him (or he goes for the stage and I punish the landing). Hell, I can drop down and DS him before he grabs the ledge if he's coming from below (as easy as it is with Fox). And Pit is good off-stage too with that Dair and multiple jumps. But did you just say a well-timed arrow will intercept Dolphin Slash? Bro, come on. The arrow can gimp the stuff that comes before DS (but good luck because a good Marth will save his double jump) but even if you hit him out of DS he'll just DS again.

As far as neutral goes, I don't believe Marth struggles against the arrows. This isn't project M. They aren't spammable against any character with decent speed. Otherwise, you leave Marth with many options...approaching with air dodges, dancing blade (which out prioritizes and outranges whatever he has), Nair (but can Pit can dash attack this), and the prescence of his tilts which are sooo good in this version of the game.

Then there's kill power. Marth's is WAY higher. Even without Fsmash.

I'll also mention that Marth tends to do well against characters with crappy air speed (both in theory and in my experience).



Please explain this.

I'll continue this in a few hours, I have to get some shut-eye.

Even after many matches against characters with a stronger offstage presence it still takes very precise timing to even hit Pit. Uspecial goes from the bottom blastzone of a Wii U FD to above the ledge. Just think about it... Have you ever hit a Pit in a situation where he couldn't of been more patient with his Uspecial? Marth can't even go particularly deep and lacks a significant lingering hitbox. These situations where you effectively combo Pit because he's "forced" into another Uspecial can be avoided by either a tech jump or mixing up Uspecial timing properly. Pit doesn't have to approach from straight below the ledge, nor does he need to use all his jumps beforehand.

I didn't say Marth struggled with arrows, but they're nowhere near as useless as you think. Fullhop arrows are incredibly hard to punish (with reasonable spacing in the matchup, which would be a little more then a Bowser I'd say) since Pit can throw out an aerial, jump or another arrow right after. If the Marth is just rushing in underneath every time then Pit has plenty of options. And arrows aren't rigid and 100% reactable projectiles offstage, they're as fast as Link's and are controlable with some charge. If you're straight below then an arrow can indeed snuff a DS, and if you're never getting hit by them while offstage then you're either fighting a bad Pit or Dark Pit.

Especially the Uspecial thing and arrows offstage... These are rookie mistakes of concepts that have been around largely since Brawl.

I am aware on its uses.

However, even if it's forcing approaches, it's simply not threatening enough to be a burden. There are more projectiles that puts pressure better like Fox's Blaster or Luigi's Fireballs. Angling the thing doesn't do much when most characters can just shield or just run straight at you, since the arrows can't go backwards. It's a good projectile, just there're better projectiles out there. They can force approaches, yes, but other projectiles can do this too, and some even have more uses (Fox's pestering you with constant damage, Luigi's forcing you to be fast on your reaction or else you might get grabbed, Sheik's forcing approaches while also being an invisible little thing that goes faster than a rocket while can also setups into her kill moves, etc). The end lag is a burden not because it's punishable (far from it), but the fact it prevents you from doing any meaningful folowups and the arrows alone don't give you much reward.

However, it's useful off-stage, yes. It's scary to think something stealing the momentum from your double jump... gah.

But that aside, I'm curious on what you can pull off with aimed arrows. Perhaps I've been underestimating this pointy energy-like thing that comes out of nowhere out of a golden sword-like bow.

The thing with arrows is that their usefulness largely depends on the mental capability of the player.

A bad Pit will just lob them out there like a for Glory Link. A good one will think ahead and vary the timing by either delaying the arrow or just wiggling it. If they're especially smart then they'll react to the opponent's movement... If Pit has an arrow loaded and you dodge in any way, you're getting hit. If you shield, Pit will keep charging just to wear your shield down and then shield stab if you're that intent on blocking it. If you move, how do you know he's not in your head? Even if he doesn't hit you he still forced a reaction and loses next to nothing in ground. Reflectors do nothing at all in the matchup, so they just aren't an option here either.

They're low-risk, low-reward projectiles. Like Wintropy said, using them properly can lead to the opponent making a bigger mistake, and Pit has tons of ways to punish that.

 

[|RK|]

Silly question, but Sheik's needles don't jab lock, right?

 

[HFlash]

no...but he can grab you from backroll range and kill you with like 80% of his normals

made even worse by him being heavy and getting even more silly with rage

Too bad on said moves, Link's frame data is just garbage for CQC. His ftilt is active at the same frame as his fsmash (frame 15) while his dash attack is... even slower (frame 20). It doesn't help a character much to have multiple killing moves if they are laggy, predictable, and can't be set up with something else. And on to the fact that Tink's 2nd fsmash has crazy knock back (130 BKB) and the first fsmash comes out at the same frame as link's (again frame 15). So the point I'm making is that both links have kill moves and almost Tink's entire moveset has better frame data. Tack on that Tink is very floaty (48th in fall speed and fast fall speed), a better recovery, and a kill confirm off of a projectile and that leads to the conclusion that yes, Tink is objectively better. Link does have (correct me if I'm wrong) a slightly larger grab reach, and is heavier, but that's all he has over his toony counterpart.

Silly question, but Sheik's needles don't jab lock, right?

Oh God, they BETTER not have jab lock.

 

[bc1910]

As far as I'm aware no, they do not, because they always lift the opponent slightly off the ground even at 0%.