Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[True Blue Warrior]

Yay! We're talking about Lucina again! I love talking about Forward Smash, the character.

Are we still all putting her 80 places below Morth? I think that the hitlag changes has helped Marth, but his tipper attacks are probably still less safe on shield compared to Lucina's, but it's just less than before.

I would probably put Marth and Lucina next to each other on the tier list at this point. They're both in a pretty good spot at this point in time.

Actually, due to the the higher damage and shield knock back difference, Marth's tipper attacks are still more safe than Lucina's attacks, no matter what.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Actually, due to the the higher damage and shield knock back difference, Marth's tipper attacks are still more safe than Lucina's attacks, no matter what.

In case no one knows what the hell I just linked, it's me showing the HUGE WOW difference in shield pushback between Marth's tipper fair and Lucina's fair.

(Hint: it's actually hardly anything, you can stop using that as an argument for Marth's "safety" now, because aside from maybe fsmash, it's blatantly not true.)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I think they were referring more to frame data and not shield push. As it was the lag modifier that got changed last patch.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I think they were referring more to frame data and not shield push. As it was the lag modifier that got changed last patch.

Marth's tippers were about 5 frames less safe than Lucina's normals. The hitlag change will shave off 1-3 frames of hitlag for most moves.

So he's... still less safe than Lucina???????????

 

[A_Kae]

Marth's tipped fair has exactly the same shield disadvantage as Lucina's. -28, specifically. Untipped is -27.

 

[FullMoon]

View attachment 71713

Hilariously enough the picture failed to load on my phone and it just gave me the file name instead.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Fair is ironically the other outlier alongside Fsmash because neither of them do very much damage (comparatively).

Do you have the information from prepatch as well? @ A_Kae

 

[A_Kae]

Fair is ironically the other outlier alongside Fsmash because neither of them do very much damage (comparatively).

Do you have the information from prepatch as well? @ A_Kae

For fair or the other moves? I have the all other moves in my frame data thread (which I really need to update), but for fair specifically, it was -31.

 

[Djent]

Sometimes things are tongue-in-cheek.

Things that aren't Greninja...
sorrynotsorry

 

[Vipermoon]

@ KuroganeHammer

The hitlag change was take hitlag on shield and divide it by 1.25 (the number for all of Marth's tippers except Smash attacks). This makes Marth 1.0 hitlag on shield just like Lucina. So it is completely wrong to say that Lucina is still more safe. Because that isn't true since technically the higher damage will occasionally do more stun and pushback so really Marth is safer (but we'll call it the same since it's minimal. What isn't minimal is the sour spots' safety which makes Marth safer on shield overall.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If you ask me, it isn't shield safety that's the biggest thing. It's having aerials that kill and edgeguard better, having a much better Utilt, and the slight extended tipper range that is apparently a thing.

I guess shield safety is fair play and 100% a valid point, the frame difference is relatively minimal, but what I think TRULY matters is stuff like having a Fair that edgeguards better, a Bair that follows a ledgetrump better, just tippers in general. You have, on average, a higher likelihood of taking a stock through edgeguarding or tippers on-stage. I know it's a self-explanatory argument but I feel like it's the one we should actually default to.

Where it is REALLY prevalent however is tipper Nair as of this patch. Tipped Nair is INSANE in this game with Marth atm.

 

[Ffamran]

If nothing else Greninja has the dubious honor of being the only character to have his hurtbox nerfed, of all things.

Link and Toon Link have the honor of having their hurtbox buffed. If I remember correctly, on the Wii U version, their shields would not block Fox and Falco's lasers for some reason. They were totally fine on the 3DS.

And I guess Mewtwo and Charizard count from a game to game standpoint because their tails and Charizard's wings aren't hurtboxes. Oh, and Pikachu. Each game, Pikachu gets skinnier and skinnier. By Smash 8, we're gonna be playing Dry Pikachu.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

This hardly matters. My proof? We didn't even notice it until now. What's more is that this is specifically a nerfed hurbox on his crouch, making it even less meaningful than your post implies. There is nothing "chilling" about this. It's about as important is that 1% nerf to Kirby's Fsmash when angled up.

That nerf to Kirby's F-Smash makes the difference between it and the standard angle much worse. It used to kill around 20~30% earlier than the standard angle, now it's like... 8~10%, if not less. So... that nerf was really important.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

What isn't minimal is the sour spots' safety which makes Marth safer on shield overall.

You can't say this because to be in sourspot range you need to be CLOSER than Lucina is. And for what? 1 frame of safety?

You cannot have your cake and eat it too; this is my problem with Marth vs Lucina debates because the Marth camp from what I've seen likes to sweep things under the rug, but the Lucina camp is just sitting over there screaming "my waifu my waifu". lol

 

[TTTTTsd]

You can't say this because to be in sourspot range you need to be CLOSER than Lucina is. And for what? 1 frame of safety?

You cannot have your cake and eat it too; this is my problem with Marth vs Lucina debates because the Marth camp from what I've seen likes to sweep things under the rug, but the Lucina camp is just sitting over there screaming "my waifu my waifu". lol

Hey, my biggest argument is being able to kill with tippers better insofar as edgeguarding (onstage tippers are considerably harder to set up, in my experience, but it's super easy to tip aerials) and just outright kill potential on aerials. Shield safety has only ever been a few frames difference (both in favor of and vs. Marth) but I'm always gonna be in the "he takes stocks better" camp, cause, well....I guess he does. I suppose his like, very slight additional range helps too. I'm too poor to buy a rug to brush it under.

I would be like "Marth tippers do more shield damage" but outside of Shield Breaker I'm really unsure how relevant that is due to shield regen in this game, but meh. Shield this, shield that, why does nobody just talk about the more obvious stuff?

 

[LordShade67]

It kind of looks like it's hitting his ear... Those are ears, right?

Considering Greninja is supposed to be based on frogs from the genera Megophrys and Ceratophrys (probably moreso the former), they're most likely horn protrusions.

Spoiler

 

[Shaya]

Marth's sour spots are [or at least were] 2 to 3 frames safer than all of Lucina's attacks at the same point.
I suppose some floor calculations could negate a bit of this further, seeing as the individually buffed damage values may have been tuned to reduce that shield difference on most moves.

And how am I so certain? because maths. Why you struggle with Maths Kuro?
Otherwise you wouldn't have made a statement saying Lucina is "probably" still more safe well spaced than Marth. That is technically impossible. (exception: smash attacks/shieldbreaker)

And as long as you maintain the inability to not get the vital difference between not having sour spot/sweet spot mechanics then you're going to keep thinking Lucina is actually within 1 spot of Marth. I don't believe it's tiers apart, their literal power levels wouldn't be that different.

When it comes to Lucina's spot, our visitors here seem to get why it happened. Bottom ten is hard in this game for a lot of the player's to feel confident in their opinions for, so when it comes down to "how do I fill the rest of this", Lucina, considering the "state" of being pragmatically weaker than Marth results in her wrapping up people's lists. As/if Marth opinion grows (rather than indifference) she'll probably stop being seen in bottom tens.

Also that difference in shield push would likely be a factor of a punish whiffing or not.
I'll probably get harped on for saying that is actually significant/non-trivial, but microspacing.

 

[CommanderRin]

Imo Lucina vs. Marth debates aren't worth spending time over.

In the end almost everything that Marth does Lucina can do and vice versa. Whether someone does it better or not isn't a topic worth discussing since in the end identity preference will beat out the divide between the two Falchions.

The characters are all about optimal spacing. And the reward for that spacing is a little different from Player to Player. I'm sure Lucina mains know that Marth's potential reward is much stronger and that's all that really matters in the end.

*all in my opinion and I dunno coming from a rather dedicated Lucina main

 

[A_Kae]

You can't say this because to be in sourspot range you need to be CLOSER than Lucina is. And for what? 1 frame of safety?

You cannot have your cake and eat it too; this is my problem with Marth vs Lucina debates because the Marth camp from what I've seen likes to sweep things under the rug, but the Lucina camp is just sitting over there screaming "my waifu my waifu". lol

It's more like 2 frames, actually.

And untipped doesn't mean a hilt hit, you can still have good (enough) spacing to make it worth doing.

Marth is always safer (or the same) than Lucina for the same spacing.

 

[Nobie]

Does Mewtwo have the best SHAD in the game?

 

[Shaya]

What can he do out of it?

I do think Marth/Lucina have [close to] the most versatile of the bunch from what I've seen, what are Mewtwo's shenanigans? Side-B into another aerial before landing maybe? That would be cool.
[In other words, fill up your point Sir].

Just a run down of SHAD for the Falchions:
1. Can have all aerials come out before landing from it.
2. Can be fast fallen out of without messing up the auto cancel
3. Have you seen those hitboxes/animations on his nair, fair, bair, uair and dair? Difficult for most characters to wait out (the SHAD) and beat. Up air and first hit nair are pretty solid combo starters, near instant landings on fair/bair/dair can lead to follow ups too. The choices they take can be safe on most of the cast's shields.
4. Dancing Blade (landing with it though) and counter are feasible things too.

 

[FullMoon]

Considering Greninja is supposed to be based on frogs from the genera Megophrys and Ceratophrys (probably moreso the former), they're most likely horn protrusions.

Spoiler

Actually I'm pretty sure those have been portrayed as being ears instead of horns

Hooray for Pokémon biology.

 

[TTTTTsd]

What can he do out of it?

I do think Marth/Lucina have [close to] the most versatile of the bunch from what I've seen, what are Mewtwo's shenanigans? Side-B into another aerial before landing maybe? That would be cool.
[In other words, fill up your point Sir].

I know I'm not bering asked but I'd like to elaborate, maybe predict? Would Mewtwo's Nair be good out of SHAD? I speculated on it a number of pages back, since it sets up into grabs if you fastfall it/land during it while it hits someone. The only drawback is it's Frame 7, but out of a proper SHAD mixup, would it matter? I guess you could SHAD crossup with his Nair too if your spacing was super good for a win/win (misspace and it hits front, big deal, etc. etc.)

Just food for thought, I guess.

 

[Nu~]

Pac-Man has one pretty similar to marth's.

I know Dee uses SHAD -> Uair/Nair/Fair as an approach mixup

Uair leads to the best follow ups though while Nair helps to beat out lower priority projectiles.

Ex: DHD trick shot, Mega Man pellets, villager slingshots and rockets

 

[Shaya]

If your character has near full aerial option spread out of shad, another factor for differentiating would be initial aerial momentum / maximum weaving or movement one can take with it.
There would perhaps be a sweet spot for example where Greninja's Shuriken or Sheik's needles are very very likely to still hit you from it.
On the point of Sheik, I'm not sure if any/many characters can SHAD through needles, I've been meaning to take a look. I brought up the suggestion to Nairo for dealing with Sheik but the retort was Sheik needles likely still hitting is possible (ZSS shad); it would be good to find out what distances/timings are required to avoid fully charged needles.

Also as it somewhat related; people don't do SHAD out of dash/run enough even though as a defensive option it can be as low as 6 frames start up; but has a lot less vulnerability than all the other defensive options.
You can roll either direction in dash, can instantly shield/back roll during run reliably, and spot dodge/forward roll slightly slower (still possibly instantly but awkward). SHAD is for characters with long dashes more often their fastest defensive option available that doesn't forego positional advantage/pressure as much as others.

 

[Nobie]

I'm not sure of the answer myself, but just the fact that Mewtwo has the quickest air dodge in the game, can fair, up air, and Nair out of it, and is at a fall speed where he can quickly land for a grab has me asking.

Edit: SHAD Disable might be a thing too, and let's not forget the whole Mewtwo disappearing thing.

 

[Megamang]

I find Mario's SHAD to be particularly useful. His general quickness and insane frame data just makes it a great thing to throw into a string. I usually throw it in when I know my string has a little gap, and SHAD their attempt to break out then nair them and start comboing again. Additionally, SHADing past their shield then bairing is pretty safe pressure/crossup, and is a nice thing to throw out at high % to start getting them into awkward recovery/landing positions.


EDIT: AND, once you start SHADing nairs into their shield (they can't shieldgrab if you beat a retreat, unless they have a great grab) you can mix in fast falling into landed grabs and jabs.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Mewtwo can F-Air, B-Air, U-Air, and N-Air out of his SHAD. He can also charge/release Shadow Ball before hitting the ground, punish with Disable, Teleport (especially good with ledge cancels), and use Confusion.

All his aerials allow combos (mainly into grab), SHAD U-Air is a good combo starter, SHAD F-Air is fast, combos into grab, SHAD B-Air has really good range and SHAD N-Air is... kinda useless, unless N-Air > Grab is a real thing.

If he uses Shadow Ball or Confusion, he can use B-Reverse/Wavebounce/stuff to shift momentum around. This is especially good with Confusion because SHAD > Confusion allows him to move around and puts him further in the air to bait stuff, so he can punish harder.

Teleport is mainly for escaping potential screw-ups and general movement out of SHAD, and can be really good with ledge cancels because no lag.

Disable is for those hard punishes, but is really scary because if you **** up he's gonna use it and kill you super early.

o also Mewtwo has p good airspeed and he's invisible during his airdodge so yay

 

[FallofBrawl]

And now, a chilling expose on Greninja's nerfed hurtbox.

I'm pretty sure it has to do with the lasers changing, and not with Greninjas hurtbox. It was back when Link could block the lasers, compensation was probably a bigger hitbox.. please correct me if I'm wrong.
EDIT: did this work and suddenly not work vs other projectiles as well? or just lasers?
EDIT: Okay maybe not, I just read about Sheiks needles

 

[K3H]

Nonsense? Haha, whatever.

Anytime someone wants to talk about how Marth is FACTUALLY better than Lucina, people love to bring up these mythical tipper JAB TO FSMASH "true combos" that are so amazingly great.

Yet nobody is able to show me a video of it ever happening in a real match, nor explain how it's "true" when you can simply move out of the way of Marth's garbage hitboxes. Apparently "TRUE" means something different in Smash, i dont know.

Or how Marth is "safe" when he gets his **** pushed in on block just like everyone else who isn't S-tier.

Ill say it for the millionth time, if you're going to lose to a good Marth, you're going to lose to Lucina too.


Until someone can show me something real...and by REAL i don't mean no bull**** training theorycraft mode videos, i mean someone competent actually playing someone competent...and Marth is able to consistently take advantage of his strengths, i'm standing by my opinion. They aren't that far off from one another, and if you have to stretch Marth's advantages so far for the sake of such a silly comparison...well, you shouldn't.

the sad thing is, people keep bringing up all this stupid stuff (that never happens) that Marth can do, while nobody ever brings up things that ACTUALLY do make a difference. Like Fsmash tipper on ledge vulnerability, or his Uair tipper being decent, ect. Just "LOLMARTH IS SAFE" (haha) or "TRUE KILL COMBO" (mhm) all day.

I agree 100% with this

 

[bc1910]

Also that difference in shield push would likely be a factor of a punish whiffing or not.
I'll probably get harped on for saying that is actually significant/non-trivial, but microspacing.

Not at all, I think you're absolutely right. Having seen the silly **** Concon pulls off by microspacing with Luigi's crouch, I'm inclined to believe all space is important no matter how small. The small pushback difference between Marth and Lucina's tippers could still matter in a lot of different situations.

 

[RayNoire]

Speaking of hurtboxes, for those that didn't see...

To be fair there's nothing wrong with his hurtbox in neutral, it's his disadvantage when he's in hitstun or tumble:

Then there's the certain attacks of Mewtwo:

Knee has a tiny hitbox so that does not play a part in why Mewtwo gets hit before the attack even physically connects. Even if it just barely physically connected, it would be the sourspot knee. Here it doesn't and it's still the sweetspot.

This is part of what I've been talking about when I say Mewtwo's hurtbox is a major problem. It, along with his bizarre ledge issues that others have mentioned, is a big reason why his disadvantage is one of--if not the--worst in the game.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Speaking of hurtboxes, for those that didn't see...



This is part of what I've been talking about when I say Mewtwo's hurtbox is a major problem. It, along with his bizarre ledge issues that others have mentioned, is a big reason why his disadvantage is one of--if not the--worst in the game.

Not when you have a frame 2 airdodge and teleport.
Probably not the worst but yeah it ain't great.

 

[Gawain]

Lol. These Lucina vs Marth "debates" sound exactly like how people used to argue about Roy vs Marth back then. Its even more funny when you consider that Roy himself is actually in the game as well, just luigified.

Though to be fair,the Roy v Marth debate still exists, it's just that the roles are reversed and they aren't as similar.

 

[Pazx]

Roy vs Lucina is a debate worth having imo, I think the closest thing to a consensus is that Marth is slightly better than both of them but on a tier list it wouldn't ever be more than a few spots. If Marth didn't exist and we were having the Lucina vs Roy debate would current-Marth players be arguing that she's better?

 

[ZeGlasses!]

I know it's off topic, but I'm curious. Why do a lot of tier lists say that RegLink is better than Toon Link?

He has better mobility, faster projectiles, more reliable combo setups, and more reliable kill options.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I know it's off topic, but I'm curious. Why do a lot of tier lists say that RegLink is better than Toon Link?

He has better mobility, faster projectiles, more reliable combo setups, and more reliable kill options.

Link can threaten shields because his rewards off a grab are pretty great, on top of his superior mid range options, air game, damage output and edgeguarding.

I'm personally leaning on Link being better, but I can see myself changing my opinion towards to T.Link just because bombs are dumb.

 

[Wintropy]

Dr. Mario was intended as a skin too (which would've been totally fine as long as the game still called him "DOCTORRR MARIOOO" but hey, I'll take a unique clone I guess. Even if he's dubiously low tier he's still pretty decent and a lot of fun.

And yeah calling Ganondorf a clone or any variation of it is really a pet peeve of mine. Sharing animations doesn't equal a full on clone. Plebs will never understand.

People will nevertheless think that the skills remain innately transferable.

The nice thing about Mario / Doc is that the playstyles stand apart just enough to make them feel very different, even if most of their moves and frame data are the same. I do prefer Doc's more methodical, punish-oriented tricks. I respect that it isn't as viable in the overall scheme of things in the same way Mario's aggro combo game is, but the fact that it caters to very different players' tastes is refreshing to see.

 

[CommanderRin]

So I'm trying Marth out as I generally use Lucina and man is tipper N-air disgustingly good.

I still believe we should be shoving aside Lucina vs Marth debates as there is genuinely no reason to prove what is proven and slam people based on the Emblem character they choose.

Save it for when either character gets their own set of buffs separate from the other.

 

[Gawain]

Roy vs Lucina is a debate worth having imo, I think the closest thing to a consensus is that Marth is slightly better than both of them but on a tier list it wouldn't ever be more than a few spots. If Marth didn't exist and we were having the Lucina vs Roy debate would current-Marth players be arguing that she's better?

Consensus my ass.