Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[ParanoidDrone]

Silly question, but Sheik's needles don't jab lock, right?

Maybe at low percents against characters that don't lie particularly flat while prone. But they do have actual knockback so even if they do it'll stop working after a certain point.

 

[DblCrest]

So I may have well over a 100 pages to catch up on....nice.

Jumped onto For Glory (Iz funny) after maybe half a year and seemed to have trouble against a select few that departed as soon as they beat me.

Ness - Fire everywhere. Ness gets so much payoff from Pk fire to grab that it's not even funny XD

Lucas- Neat tactic of using the rope snake in the air to shield poke into a grab.

Sonic- Throughout the whole match he actually rarely used spin dash and utilized homing attack after shield pokes. Lag is an issue but usually I just see Sonic's spinning around all over the stage. Was impressive since he wasn't just spamming the side B as well.

But what really caught my attention is a ROB player that screwed me over using mostly lasers and gryomites to poke my shield. Hard reads with his UPsmash to KO me twice.He didn't wait for a charge or anything just threw the gyros and beams out to keep me off balance. It was effective... which reminds me of the ROB player that took down most of the Sonic's in this years Apex or Evo I can't recall.

Anyway which Sonic or ROB players have placed well in the big tourneys lately? I'm curious to see how they're handled at a higher level since I don't know how to use the two that well.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Maybe at low percents against characters that don't lie particularly flat while prone. But they do have actual knockback so even if they do it'll stop working after a certain point.

They dont jab lock lmao it takes like half a second to look up but people speculate anyways like what

 

[Thinkaman]

The current OP list looks super similar to my own; I still think Diddy, Greninja, Charizard, and Ganon are being a tad underrated, but those are like, whatever.

I'm shocked that WFT is on the bottom. I thought she was the latest TOP 15!!!!! fad? I've been playing her a bit and she seems pretty solid. She is still a gimped character without Jumbo Hoops, but she's no longer bottom tier.

Meanwhile, why is Bowser "Inconclusive/Outlier"? Without customs, I have Bowser as 2nd worst in the game atm. Did something happen?

 

[Wintropy]

You know, if you think about it, Dark Pit actually KOs much faster than Pit because of Electroshock Arm's horizontal knockback compared to Pit's Upperdash Arm, which is terrible for high ceiling stages like Skyloft. Electroshock Arm, at the edge of a stage, is just perfect for KO opportunities, something Pit severely lacks in his own attack.

While Pit has his weaker, yet more controllable and faster arrows, Dark Pit still has not only the power, but also the Electroshock Arm having better KO capability than Upperdash Arm would ever. Otherwise, they are essentially the same character, but I believe Dark Pit is not a half tier lower than Pit, but I believe Dark Pit is just one spot above Pit, only because of Electroshock Arm's capability to KO faster than Upperdash Arm, especially on stages with higher ceilings and closer blast lines such as Final Destination, Battlefield and Smashville; it is much more effective on Smashville no less since it has the closest side blast zone.

And with customs on, Dark Pit's arrow issue is remedied obviously since he'll have more control with his arrows, which would just actually make him half a tier higher, in theory, than a customs Pit.

That's good in theory, but it doesn't work that way.

Arms are incredibly situational. I mean super situational. People get this notion into their heads that the moves are safe because they're both fast and can plow through opponents with super armour, but...they really aren't. They're slow and the armour is spotty at the best of times. If you shield it, that's a free punish. Serve a projectile at it and the move intercepts itself - Mario's fireball can cut it short. You can even grab the Pits in the middle of the animation. It's best to think of it as a counter more than anything: you either need a hard read or a good crossover for it to work.

With that in mind, it isn't as simple as "Dark Pit wins because he can setup for KO opportunities". Pit isn't short of off-stage setups: he has a great dash grab that converts into f-throw, which itself is infinitely more effective a setup than Electroshock Arm. Nine times out of ten, if you can get Electroshock in at the edge, f-throw is a better, safer, more reliable and more efficient option. Dark Pit can KO off the edge if the stage has narrow blastzones and he's at the edge and he has an opening and the opponent is at a high enough percent to get caught off the edge. That's a big commitment and an incredible depth of theory. At the same percents Dark Pit needs to kill with Electroshock at the edge, he can kill with f-throw or, at the very least, get the opponent far enough away that he can just chase them.

You fundamentally overestimate the efficacy of Upperdash Arm in the first place. Pit doesn't fish for kills with it unless he's desperate or so far ahead in his stock that it doesn't even matter if he misses a few times. Otherwise, Pit doesn't possess a dearth of kill options: f-throw at the edge will kill at high percents, f-smash will kill with a good read, tipper f-tilt can kill, even u-throw can kill if the opponent's at KO percents. He doesn't need to use Upperdash. It's there as a contingency in case everything else doesn't work or he wants to style.

Pit's arrows are much more versatile than Dark Pit's in the first place. Said it before, say it again: even if Dark Pit's are stronger, the fact that you can control Pit's means you'll hit more often with them and therefore do more damage in the macro scheme.

tl;dr - Dark Pit isn't any higher because his differences don't justify any big change in his placement. For the use his differences even have, he's fundamentally the same.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The current OP list looks super similar to my own; I still think Diddy, Greninja, Charizard, and Ganon are being a tad underrated, but those are like, whatever.

I'm shocked that WFT is on the bottom. I thought she was the latest TOP 15!!!!! fad? I've been playing her a bit and she seems pretty solid. She is still a gimped character without Jumbo Hoops, but she's no longer bottom tier.

Meanwhile, why is Bowser "Inconclusive/Outlier"? Without customs, I have Bowser as 2nd worst in the game atm. Did something happen?

Wow, nice to see you sir! Yeah I'm not sure about Bowser either, didn't we all come to the conclusion that he wasn't that good? Not sure but I could've sworn we did. Did the top players disagree?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

They dont jab lock lmao it takes like half a second to look up but people speculate anyways like what

Because when I was reading and typing my own post, the one that said they couldn't wasn't on my screen yet?

(EDIT: And now it happened again, the two posts above me teleported in when I submitted this one.)

 

[HFlash]

Because when I was reading and typing my own post, the one that said they couldn't wasn't on my screen yet?

(EDIT: And now it happened again, the two posts above me teleported in when I submitted this one.)

Those people posted while you were writing yours. You could always refresh right before posting (copy your post before doing this in case the draft doesn't get saved).

 

[LancerStaff]

Just how good is Bowser anyway? People were hyping him as a top tier for months and then people finally saw his problems and dropped the idea like a hot stone. (Ugh, can't wait for people to finally understand pha1re sord isn't top tier and his approach is god-awful.)

Now DK is tied for 19th? Ehhhh. Doesn't the Ding-Dong only work at KO%s on light fast fallers? Sounds more like people don't get the matchup.

 

[Thinkaman]

Doesn't the Ding-Dong only work at KO%s on light fast fallers? Sounds more like people don't get the matchup.

To play half-devil's-advocate, light fast-fallers is just about as good of a group to be effective against as you could ask for.

 

[Djent]

Paragon is delayed like, 3 hours atm. Blergh. EDIT: Ayyy, we're live.

I agree with @ Thinkaman RE: ; that character is buttcheeks. I actually think he should trade places with . If I were to make a judgment based on the little I've seen from this brother from another Mother, it'd be that he's actually good. But realistically we know comparatively little about him.

I'd love to be able to argue and out of the lower tiers, but realistically both have already attracted a good deal of talent while only attaining marginal results, arguably worse than should be expected when you consider that some of their players are national-level quality. And that talent has been abandoning them, as if they now know better.

 

[FullMoon]

Out of curiosity, at what point does a character get classified as light? Which character is the heaviest among the lightweights?

 

[Jaguar360]

Out of curiosity, at what point does a character get classified as light? Which character is the heaviest among the lightweights?

I would guess that it starts at from Zelda/Sheik down. I think the 4 point difference between Peach and Zelda's weights is good enough to start the divide. Then default Mii - Peach could be middleweights, Bowser Jr/Samus - Megaman/Heavy Mii could be heavyweights and Bowser - Ganondorf could be super heavyweights.

 

[Djent]

Day over K9 2-0

I remember catching flak for including Lucario on my list of "Character's That Sheik Doesn't Murder." Now that seems to be the consensus. /gloating

 

[Trifroze]

I'd say Sheik/Zelda are the first lightweights since there's quite a large gap between them and Peach at 85 vs 89.

 

[Ffamran]

Out of curiosity, at what point does a character get classified as light? Which character is the heaviest among the lightweights?

Probably where Zelda and Sheik are should be the starting point of lightweights or hell, maybe Peach and down. So, anyone lower than or equal to 89 units, Peach's weight, are lightweights. Anyone above that is average with the cap being 99 units, Lucario's weight. Anyone above and equal to 100 units, default Mii Fighter's weight, are above average, and anyone above or equal to 112 units, Ganondorf's weight, are heavyweights. This kind of outlines it: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Weight.

With Sheik's fall speed, she's probably the "heaviest lightweight" while obviously, Jigglypuff's the lightest; Jigglypuff has the lightest weight and lowest fall speed. In the middle of that would be Pikachu, who has average air speed and is kind of the middle of the lightweights.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think Zelda/Mewtwo/Bowser are the worst 3 characters, but will always mention that they are pretty bloody great "worst characters." That's what makes it so hard to talk about, and is what enables "Is Bowser actually bad?" to be a legitimate inquiry.

 

[Fatmanonice]

In terms of source material and laziness...Ganondorf is one of the worst examples of a clone i've seen.

This really isn't the place for this... This thread is supposed to be about viability and the competitive aspects of characters, not complaints about their general moveset.

 

[HFlash]

Any reason why you guys are rating Bowser so low? I would say that he isn't even the worst heavy in the game. At least everyone can't just throwback Bowser's flame with almost literally anymove (looking at you DDD and your Gordos) and he has a decent OOS option (Up B). Also, Bowser has a considerably faster F Smash compared to DDD with relatively little drawback in KB, and a command grab. Is Bowser bottom 10? Maybe, probably, but I think there are other more notable candidates for that bottom 3 status or aka "hyrule" status back in brawl. I agree with your other bottom 3 characters @ Thinkaman , except for Bowser. Either non custom Mii (take your pick at one of the 3) or DDD are more fitting for that dubious title.

 

[Radical Larry]

http://smashboards.com/threads/new-tech-jump-canceled-ko-punch.416559/

I (hopefully) discovered a new tech last night that may affect Little Mac's viability and boost him up the tier spots quite a bit. The tech actually works and gives him a helluva lot of distance comparable to the normal KO Punch. However, read my thread about it above and do some tests for yourselves, guys, trust me, it works. (And if you can't seem to perform it, I will post a video on it.)

 

[Jehtt]

The ability to jump cancel KO punch has been known since forever, where have you been?

 

[Radical Larry]

The ability to jump cancel KO punch has been known since forever, where have you been?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU5S0t5mNo8

You are probably referring to this, which is not 2 times the distance of a regular punch and is normally useless. However, the one I found increases the KO Punch distance twice as far and allows you to slide with it.

I've looked through YouTube and other video websites to find if anyone else has discovered it, but to no avail.
Also, just to make this clear, I should rename the tech Propelling JC KO Punch, since Mac is being propelled a huge distance after the dash and jump cancel.

 

[Jehtt]

I assume you are talking about this http://gfycat.com/ThirdSmugBrant In which case it has been known for months.

 

[Radical Larry]

I assume you are talking about this http://gfycat.com/ThirdSmugBrant In which case it has been known for months.

How did I not know about it until now? Well, at least the thread I made will just be an informative on how to perform it and what can combo into the punch, as well as the statistics on when to perform it and how to ensure it works, just for new players needing that extra push for Mac.

(Why am I having bad luck with trying to find discoveries.)

 

[Illuminose]

Day over K9 2-0

I remember catching flak for including Lucario on my list of "Character's That Sheik Doesn't Murder." Now that seems to be the consensus. /gloating

How long is it going to take non-Sheiks to understand that Lucario has a positive matchup vs her...

 

[Baby_Sneak]

How long is it going to take non-Sheiks to understand that Lucario has a positive matchup vs her...

He doesn't though.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I think Zelda/Mewtwo/Bowser are the worst 3 characters, but will always mention that they are pretty bloody great "worst characters." That's what makes it so hard to talk about, and is what enables "Is Bowser actually bad?" to be a legitimate inquiry.

I don't agree with you but I get what you mean. Playing as low tiers in this game doesn't feel the same as it did in past Smash games where low tier characters were like fat kids in a dodgeball tournament. They're still not viable but the feel is a lot different. This game really doesn't have any comically bad characters and the only one that really sort of fits that bill is and, even then, there's always the hope of patches. This game doesn't really have an equivalent to or or where you're pretty much deemed insane if you compete with them seriously or would only choose them to humiliate your opponent.

As to why I don't agree with you, I don't think Bowser or Mewtwo are bottom three. Zelda's still kind of a mess but, seeing how she was surreally terrible in Melee and Brawl, she's actually kind of functional now for the first time in the series. In my own personal list, I would say are the three worst. For characters like , I think some minor adjustments would do wonders for them, just like they did for while the three I mentioned are the only characters I think need extensive overhauls to even be put on the right track. As you said, don't feel low tier in the traditional Smash sense but they do feel flawed, even if it's not absolutely crippling. The same can be said about characters like , there are little things that are off about them that could tweaked to make them a lot better. and would be a lot more scary with more dependable kill options. would be pretty intimidating if his attacks were faster. problem is pretty obvious. It's that sort of thing that you see with the low and lower mid tiers over and over again, minor problems instead of being wholly dysfunctional like in the past.

 

[Kaladin]

How long is it going to take non-Sheiks to understand that Lucario has a positive matchup vs her...

Functionally, it's positive. Optimal play wise, Lucario gets bodied.

 

[Nu~]

How long is it going to take non-Sheiks to understand that Lucario has a positive matchup vs her...

I'm not sure about positive per say. One match certainly isn't the end all be all that Shiek loses to lucario.

Hell, Abadango beat Rain and shu 2-0. Is it a positive matchup for Pac-man now as well?

Lucario still gets blown back in neutral and gets walled out all day by needle camp sheik. I also feel that sheik's lack of kill power is being heavily overrated...

 

[Djent]

SM just 2-stocked DKwill game 1 with

holy ****...

EDIT: And lost the set but won our hearts.

 

[Kaladin]

SM just 2-stocked DKwill game 1 with

holy ****...

Not familiar with SM. Skill differential, or matchup?

 

[HFlash]

Functionally, it's positive. Optimal play wise, Lucario gets bodied.

As does the rest of the cast.

SM just 2-stocked DKwill game 1 with

holy ****...

EDIT: And lost the set but won our hearts.

But lost the set

Edit: Didn't see the edit, but gotta love the hype "We like Ike" chants!

 

[Djent]

I have no idea how vs. plays out theoretically.

Will is the better player but SM has taken out VoiD. He's definitely on the come-up in terms of regional-level threats.

 

[Mario766]

SM is the Ike no one really knows about.

Everyone thinks about Ryo/Ryuga but SM is in one of the best scenes in Smash 4, SoCal with results.

 

[Wintropy]

I don't think Bowser is anywhere near the worst in the game. He's by no mean anywhere close the best, he's pretty underwhelming, but I dunno, I find it difficult to disrespect a character that can kill you with two good reads. With rage, the fact that he can live well into the hundred percent range just means he can kill you even more efficiently.

He's walking combo fodder and his frame data is a bit naff, but the way I see it, it's degrees of separation. He has a slightly better time of it than Dedede (god rest his penguin soul), a character blessed with the unholy trinity of a truly massive hurtbox, fundamentally slow mobility and absolutely poor frame data. Bowser can at least do stuff to get you off of his spiky green back if he needs to (jab and d-tilt, which mediocre in the macro sense, present pretty viable CQC options to control the immediate space, up-b is a decent OoS option, etc), his fire breath is a good pressure tool at the edge, his hitboxes don't whiff very often (still weirded out that Dedede's d-tilt will occasionally miss at point-blank range) and he has decent mobility and a serviceable double-jump compared to most other heavies.

I don't think he's worth writing home about, but I guess he's just somewhat better than certain others.

To be fair, I feel the same way about Ganondorf. Technically underwhelming, but when he can kill most everybody in a couple of clean hits, it kinda forces folks to wake up and get their head in the game. Rage helps, which is nice~

 

[Trifroze]

Trying to rank the worst characters among each other is a slippery slope in the sense that there's way less development and high level display of them than with top characters which are much easier to judge. The arguments to justify why some characters should be the worst usually point to a simple lack of knowledge and experience of the character's strong points and are really just people bandwagoning on what they've heard.

 

[Jamurai]

I think people struggle to put people in bottom 5 or bottom 10 because there isn't a single terrible character really. It's important to think relatively though. Sure Bowser has good points but so does every character. There isn't a single bottom tier that hasn't been called "underrated"... But someone has to be worst.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I have no idea how vs. plays out theoretically.

Will is the better player but SM has taken out VoiD. He's definitely on the come-up in terms of regional-level threats.

Theoretically: something around even. Can probably argue a slight advantage either way. I've seen San say he thinks its slightly in DK's favour.

DK's new play style is too new to really hammer down a good MU against him atm.

Also, SM sadly lost to a Sheik in LF of his pool so he's out. To quote him he played "too nervously" against said Sheik.

Still, we'll take the 2-stock against DK.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think people struggle to put people in bottom 5 or bottom 10 because there isn't a single terrible character really. It's important to think relatively though. Sure Bowser has good points but so does every character. There isn't a single bottom tier that hasn't been called "underrated"... But someone has to be worst.

I think it's just years of conditioning that's made us associate "bottom tier" with "garbage". This is part of the reason I don't like tier lists that insist on having a large number of tiers, because that implies a degree of separation between each group that may or may not actually exist. (Honestly, what's the difference between A and A-? Or A- and B+?)

As far as I'm concerned we have Sheik in S, a large blob of characters that can reasonably function in a tournament in A, an even larger blob of characters that are by no means bad but just fall short of "you can totally win with me" in B, and then Zelda and co. at the bottom in C.

</minirant>

 

[Thinkaman]

Right, I'm not especially interested in debating the exact lower positions--I was just surprised at the placement of Bowser.

As far as I'm concerned we have Sheik in S

I really hesitate to put Sheik in any separate "S" tier. There is a statistically significant gap between her and the runner-ups, but I cringe every time I see the dialogue slipping down the slope toward talking about Sheik like she is Melee Fox, Brawl MK, or even previous patch Diddy.

I was mocked for considering pre-nerf Sheik to be roughly pre-nerf Diddy's equal, and I'll flip a table before we start implicitly talking like a worse character than that is some godly S-tier.