Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[|RK|]

I missed the last hour of stream, watching live (Ally v. Mr. R) now. Any upsets relevant to the topic of this thread I should know about? How is Shaky/Slayerz doing?

Shaky lost to Dabuz - absolute destruction.

EDIT: MR. R HAS A RYU?!?!

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Shaky got Rosalina'd and Mr. R's bringing out Ryu.

Ninja'd

 

[wedl!!]

dabuz beat both slayerz and shaky lmao

slayerz got 7th and shaky got 5th

 

[Thinkaman]

Here's the only issue: Smash's Up Specials aren't universal. Little Mac's Rising Uppercut for example has no armor nor any invincibility for either the ground or air version

If by this you mean, "is one of the only frame 1 invincible moves in the game", then yes.

 

[meleebrawler]

Here's the only issue: Smash's Up Specials aren't universal. Little Mac's Rising Uppercut for example has no armor nor any invincibility for either the ground or air version and Roy's Blazer only has armor on the ground while Marth, Lucina, and Sonic have invincible frames even though Sonic's isn't an (normal) attack. In other cases, Up Specials are strictly for travel like Rosalina's Launch Star or the Pits' Gift of Flight. For those that don't have any armor like Zelda, Shulk, or Link, then they'll need to hit first, but intercepting an anti-air would be difficult for Zelda's Farore's Wind not to mention she could just SD and Link's Spin Attack is kind of worthless for vertical challenging. Oh, and for some, their Up Specials are just inferior versions of other characters. By some, I mean Falco.

As for Roy not getting any invincibility or amour on Blazer in the air, look at it this way: if you're using it there, it's probably not as a defensive move (or it could just be to encourage people to use the stronger grounded version more).

 

[Kaladin]

Shaky lost to Dabuz - absolute destruction.

EDIT: MR. R HAS A RYU?!?!

Unsurprising.

MR RYU THO!

 

[wedl!!]

Mr R is bringing Ally to last stock, last hit situations with his Ryu, after he lost two consecutive games with his Sheik.

What is happening

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Now we're playing fighting games. Great stuff.

 

[|RK|]

Man, it really is amazing. The best Sheik switched to Ryu to bring it back against the best Mario. Incredible.

 

[Rashyboy05]

MV ****in D.

I love how Diddy Shiek is looking even at the top level.

Yet ZeRo keeps insisting that the Diddy vs Shiek MU is -2 for Diddy.

 

[LancerStaff]

So I've never seen a 0% death (like, stock ended at 0%) off the top before today, but Ally just did that with a single hit of Mario's UpB, with I believe the reverse hit just barely hitting Sonic off the top, and killing, without actually registering any damage, because multihit moves do that somedays.
Everybody was like whoa.

More like a .3% death. Multihit moves never do zero, but instead less then one. Other non-multihits like Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm can do X.5% on a hit. (Electroshock does 11.5%, .5 more then Pit's BTW.)

 

[Emblem Lord]

Mr R is bringing Ally to last stock, last hit situations with his Ryu, after he lost two consecutive games with his Sheik.

What is happening

The more you hit Ryu, the more he gives into the Satsui no Hadou and his desire to win.

Dem rage Shoryus son.

 

[Asdioh]

This tournament looks sooo bad for Sheik.
Ryu is godlike though. Mario's pretty godlike too! Just has a little trouble sealing stocks sometimes.

The more you hit Ryu, the more he gives into the Satsui no Hadou and his desire to win.

Dem rage Shoryus son.

He's also insanely hard to edgeguard because of the hitbox and invincibility on Shoryuken. How do you even edgeguard him? I can do it with Kirby because of the Stone armor... do Counter moves do well or what?

 

[Djent]

: "Hey, you stole my moves!"
: "lolno."

 

[Ffamran]

If by this you mean, "is one of the only frame 1 invincible moves in the game", then yes.

I blame incomplete, not up to date frame data and multiple frame data sheets. Reference here, reference here, oh, you don't have an entry for this, the game even tells you that Roy's Up Smash has invincibility, but why isn't it listed, blah, blah, blah, meh.

As for Roy not getting any invincibility or amour on Blazer in the air, look at it this way: if you're using it there, it's probably not as a defensive move (or it could just be to encourage people to use the stronger grounded version more).

Roy's Blazer having armor only on the ground is probably the best choice for giving armor or invincibility. In the air, it's kind of stupid that there are some moves that you outright cannot challenge.

More like a .3% death. Multihit moves never do zero, but instead less then one. Other non-multihits like Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm can do X.5% on a hit. (Electroshock does 11.5%, .5 more then Pit's BTW.)

It probably staled. Mario's SJP does 5% hit 1, 1% (x3) hits 2-4, and 1(x2) hits 5-6?, and 3% last hit... Okay, what the hell? Two frame data sources and they list his SJP as having different amounts of hits... Look, point is the looping hits do 1%, Ally uses it a lot, it probably staled, and he probably hit with one of the loop hits because if he didn't he probably would have done at least 1%.

 

[meleebrawler]

: "Hey, you stole my moves!"
: "lolno."

That's because he stole them from Ken instead.

Now on the other hand...

 

[Pazx]

Ally vs Mr R was the best set I've ever seen. Ryu is looking like he's a threat no matter how far behind he is. He probably does somewhat better against characters that don't have easy kill confirms, so he really showed his strengths against Mario.

~~~~

MVD hasn't seen this video:

 

[Emblem Lord]

This tournament looks sooo bad for Sheik.
Ryu is godlike though. Mario's pretty godlike too! Just has a little trouble sealing stocks sometimes.


He's also insanely hard to edgeguard because of the hitbox and invincibility on Shoryuken. How do you even edgeguard him? I can do it with Kirby because of the Stone armor... do Counter moves do well or what?

Aim for the back of his head. if you try to hit his hand he just blows through you most of the time. hitbox is serious. Counters can work too.

And yeah Ryu kinda ****s on the entire metagame of "Get the stock lead and run"

He doesnt care. He will find you and he will kill you.

 

[wedl!!]

SPIKE OF THE YEAR

 

[RedBeefBaron]

MVD

NOOOOO

 

[|RK|]

SPIKE OF THE YEAR

This tournament is glorious

 

[Mr. Johan]

If we don't see Flip Jump nerfed in the next patch, I will be stunned.

Nairo didn't even try to get that, and he still got it.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I got to play you again @ Emblem Lord sometime. I need some more W's to even out my L's. .

On topic, how many characters does Mr.R hold? Because I think he may fizzle out if he has too many.

 

[IsmaR]

http://oddshot.tv/shot/vgbootcamp-2015090723026782

The entire Smash 4 scene needed to take a moment of silence.

 

[David Viran]

If we don't see Flip Jump nerfed in the next patch, I will be stunned.

Nairo didn't even try to get that, and he still got it.

Get what? The kick. One does not simply throw out flip kick expecting to miss. But he was trying to edge cancel and MVD tried to challenge it.

 

[Shaya]

Ally vs Mr R was the best set I've ever seen. Ryu is looking like he's a threat no matter how far behind he is. He probably does somewhat better against characters that don't have easy kill confirms, so he really showed his strengths against Mario.

~~~~

MVD hasn't seen this video:

Oh he definitely has.

Just two things:
Only the first hit has an SDI multiplier, you need to expect it.

If you're caught by ZSS' up-b towards the centre of your body, you aren't going to fall out. Take note how many of nairo's up airs hit horizontally over vertically (which allowed jumps to reach vertical parity with opponent's easier) and how it was primarily used as an out of shield/dash punish (where one's ability to react to SDI the first hit is strained / all the character's momentum is falling into her which makes popping out even less likely).

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Couldn't MVD have lived that by using Rocketbarrels instead of Monkey Flip? Seems like he'd get enough height and momentum from it to recover.

 

[Locke 06]

Couldn't MVD have lived that by using Rocketbarrels instead of Monkey Flip? Seems like he'd get enough height and momentum from it to recover.

Salt in the wound my puffball friend.

 

[Blue Banana]

Couldn't MVD have lived that by using Rocketbarrels instead of Monkey Flip? Seems like he'd get enough height and momentum from it to recover.

I think MVD panicked after not teching against the wall that he panicked about recovering back to the stage.

 

[Radical Larry]

The IASA aka FAF on Usmash is frame 42.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Ganondorf

There's really no way Ganon and Link are fast but we'll have to agree to disagree.

Actually, FAF (First Active Frame) is and is not the same as an IASA (Interruptible As Soon As) frame. Ganondorf's IASA Frames start immediately after the hitbox on Frame 23, which is the peak of the kick itself and the end of the hitboxes. Anything after that can be interrupted into another attack (like F-Tilt). If you notice, there is no data in the listing that lists out the FULL frames of any of Ganondorf's attacks, and as such, one can assume that FAF means his full frames of his attacks, not his IASA frames.

If you still do not believe me, try using Ganondorf's U-Smash and then interrupt it at the peak of the hit, which is frame 23. The IASA frames start at frame 23, which is the last active hit of the hitboxes. It doesn't take almost a second to interrupt Ganondorf's U-Smash, whatsoever. 3 consecutive U-Smashes can be used within around a second if you IASA the last hitbox frame comes out.

So there is an attack of Ganondorf's that is fast comparable to other heavyweights, and it's also the reason Ganondorf's the only heavyweight able to combo into two U-Smashes. Because Bowser, D3, Samus, Charizard, Falcon, DK, Bowser Jr., Link and Yoshi do not have the same IASA frame advantage Ganondorf has, they sometimes will be unable to link into a second U-Smash in a true combo; although, they can link into U-Smashes if they can read opponents, but not in true combos most of the time. Somehow those characters cannot interrupt their U-Smashes very early, and often have to wait for their animations to finish, but Ganondorf on the other hand can literally do it AFTER the peak of his attack.

So in conclusion, Ganondorf's IASA is 23, not 42. (Go test it out yourself if you don't believe me)

 

[ZeGlasses!]

Luma's jab killing is so dumb lol

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Rosalina is ridiculous right now.

Jab killing like that is obscene. I feel like if Luma up air, dair, and gentleman's were slightly nerfed she would still be top 5.

She doesn't have to take risks to get kills at this point, she is an unbelievably safe character in general with the reward she gets for landing anything.

 

[Thinkaman]

Actually, FAF (First Active Frame) is and is not the same as an IASA (Interruptible As Soon As) frame. Ganondorf's IASA Frames start immediately after the hitbox on Frame 23, which is the peak of the kick itself and the end of the hitboxes. Anything after that can be interrupted into another attack (like F-Tilt). If you notice, there is no data in the listing that lists out the FULL frames of any of Ganondorf's attacks, and as such, one can assume that FAF means his full frames of his attacks, not his IASA frames.

If you still do not believe me, try using Ganondorf's U-Smash and then interrupt it at the peak of the hit, which is frame 23. The IASA frames start at frame 23, which is the last active hit of the hitboxes. It doesn't take almost a second to interrupt Ganondorf's U-Smash, whatsoever. 3 consecutive U-Smashes can be used within around a second if you IASA the last hitbox frame comes out.

So in conclusion, Ganondorf's IASA is 23, not 42. (Go test it out yourself if you don't believe me)

Nothing about this is correct.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Actually, FAF (First Active Frame) is and is not the same as an IASA (Interruptible As Soon As) frame. Ganondorf's IASA Frames start immediately after the hitbox on Frame 23, which is the peak of the kick itself and the end of the hitboxes. Anything after that can be interrupted into another attack (like F-Tilt). If you notice, there is no data in the listing that lists out the FULL frames of any of Ganondorf's attacks, and as such, one can assume that FAF means his full frames of his attacks, not his IASA frames.

If you still do not believe me, try using Ganondorf's U-Smash and then interrupt it at the peak of the hit, which is frame 23. The IASA frames start at frame 23, which is the last active hit of the hitboxes. It doesn't take almost a second to interrupt Ganondorf's U-Smash, whatsoever. 3 consecutive U-Smashes can be used within around a second if you IASA the last hitbox frame comes out.

So there is an attack of Ganondorf's that is fast comparable to other heavyweights, and it's also the reason Ganondorf's the only heavyweight able to combo into two U-Smashes. Because Bowser, D3, Samus, Charizard, Falcon, DK, Bowser Jr., Link and Yoshi do not have the same IASA frame advantage Ganondorf has, they sometimes will be unable to link into a second U-Smash in a true combo; although, they can link into U-Smashes if they can read opponents, but not in true combos most of the time. Somehow those characters cannot interrupt their U-Smashes very early, and often have to wait for their animations to finish, but Ganondorf on the other hand can literally do it AFTER the peak of his attack.

So in conclusion, Ganondorf's IASA is 23, not 42. (Go test it out yourself if you don't believe me)

FAF means First Actionable Frame, it's the same thing as IASA.

 

[DunnoBro]

Get what? The kick. One does not simply throw out flip kick expecting to miss

What? It's an escape/mobility tool so they throw it out plenty, and with proper reaction times you'll never miss with it if the opponent tries to challenge it. It's also absurdly strong, though in it's defense mvd could have lived that by charging jetpack sooner instead of monkey flipping.

 

[Radical Larry]

Nothing about this is correct.

Test it for yourself. Once the hitbox is no longer active, there's your interruptibility frames right there around frame 23.

 

[Kaladin]

MVD: barrels in neutral, literally five consecutive rolls into dtilt, and a lead over Dabuz.

 

[David Viran]

What? It's an escape/mobility tool so they throw it out plenty, and with proper reaction times you'll never miss with it if the opponent tries to challenge it.It's also absurdly strong, though in it's defense mvd could have lived that by charging jetpack soonerr instead of monkey flipping.

I was talking about the commitment of doing the kick not the move itself.

 

[Thinkaman]

Test it for yourself. Once the hitbox is no longer active, there's your interruptibility frames right there around frame 23.

Ganon u-smash is not faster than Sheik f-tilt.

 

[DunnoBro]

I was talking about the commitment of doing the kick not the move itself.

Yea, but nairo wasn't going for the kick when he started the move. That's what I think he meant by the "didn't even try to get that" comment. Nairo was just trying to evade pressure and mvd screwed up the chase a little.