Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

57.96 for the trail of his foot to dissipate.
57.56 for the animation of his forward tilt to start coming out.

4/10ths of a second; roughly 24 frames...

Second instance
56.46 to 55.86 for protruding foot to a second up smash.
6/10ths of a second *(whoops maths).

Sayonara Larry.

 

[Apeirohaon]

@Radical Larry

but you said

Ganondorf's IASA Frames start immediately after the hitbox on Frame 23, which is the peak of the kick itself and the end of the hitboxes

there's your interruptibility frames right there around frame 23.

and

If there's one thing I know about, it's that Ganondorf's U-Smash is interruptible at frame 23, that's in my experience from day one.

which is false. You also said it's interruptible right after the hitbox ends, which is also false.

Just admit you were wrong about that, at least.

 

[Blobface]

Going to tentatively ask if I could put my tier list up for review here.

Also, a quick Peach Combo for you all:
On Dream Land 64, pull a turnip. From there, go onto the top platform, throw the turnip upwards, grab your opponent, Up throw, jump, up air, double jump, up B.

If the Up B connects, it's a stock.

You can post a tier list as long as you post your reasoning and thought behind it. You don't need to exhaustively explain every placement, but you should definitely explain any unusual placements.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

You can post a tier list as long as you post your reasoning and thought behind it. You don't need to exhaustively explain every placement, but you should definitely explain any unusual placements.

So if i put someone like Jigglypuff as a top tier character, I'd have to explain why?

 

[Vipermoon]

Guys, I think Larry is confusing IASA with buffering. I'm surprised no one suggested this to him because reading everything I missed in one go made that plainly obvious to me.

Larry, you inputted Ftilt and it eventually happened but only because of the buffer window. It still started on frame 42. I'm assume you know about buffering but if not then ssbwiki.

Sorry to revive this topic. No need to reply to this or anything.

 

[Wintermelon43]

So if i put someone like Jigglypuff as a top tier character, I'd have to explain why?

Yes, you would. But if you think Jigglypuff is top tier, chances are no one will agree with you.

 

[Megamang]

For reference, we aren't sure about the top 5, so any small piece of a tier list is still also a discussion in itself.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Wait, is the OP changing based on what we say here? Or was somebody else's vote added? Because Bowser's in underwhelming now.

 

[Routa]

I feel like we have talked ins and outs of each character... in singles. So what if we talked about character viability in doubles? For example Lil'Mac is ok character in singles, but when thrown into doubles environment... Oh boy! Just like in Pokemon some of the Pokemons (characters) might be NU/RU (C tier) in singles, but in doubles UU/OU (B/A tier).

 

[PUK]

I feel like we have talked ins and outs of each character... in singles. So what if we talked about character viability in doubles? For example Lil'Mac is ok character in singles, but when thrown into doubles environment... Oh boy! Just like in Pokemon some of the Pokemons (characters) might be NU/RU (C tier) in singles, but in doubles UU/OU (B/A tier).

I feel like discussing double, trio, quartet here would be a source of confusion. Those meta (and particularly trio and quartet) are leagues away and it would be better to just put them in another thread.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Good to see Ryu doing well. 5th as a secondary and 9th is a good start at national level. At least they got one DLC character right. Curious to see where the character will settle eventually but right now top 10 is looking likely.

So what else do we learn from Paragon?

* Nairo is very likely playing on his own level right below Zero's. Zero, Mr r and ESAM are the only ones that seem able to take him right now. Not accounting for players like Ranai here but yeah, I think at this point it's fair to say that Nairo's is about a level above everybody else and that people like Larry, Shaky and MVD losing to him doesn't really mean much in regards to how the characters are matched up against each other.

* ZSS is #2 in this game right now. End of discussion. Any doubts left about that officially belong in the realm of fantasy. There's a gap between ZSS and the next best character too. A gap between Sheik and ZSS though? Remains to be seen. As long as Zero is at least one level above everybody else his results should be taken with a grain of salt. Mr r and Rain both seem beatable these days though and they are #2 and #3 with Sheik respectively.

* Diddy is very, very likely #3 right now. I don't really see who else qualifies. Character is still blatantly top tier and as long as Luigi doesn't actually do anything in tournament Diddy doesn't have much holding him back.

* Pikachu is still carried entirely by ESAM which I don't quite understand considering that Pikachu is not only a very good character but also not very hard to play. But at this point I'm starting to become less sure about Pikachu being top 5 after all ... a lot of non-high tiers seem to be able to go evenish with him and the amount of high/top characters that supposedly lose to Pikachu is becoming lower. It used to be ZSS, Fox, Diddy, Rosie and Sonic, now it's basically just ZSS and maybe Rosalina that's left. No real argument exists for the other characters as far as I know.

ESAM thinks Ryu is bad. Zero thinks Peach is low tier (at least according to his unfinished 1.08 tier list).

How many times has this been talked about in this thread already? That ESAM's and especially Zero's opinions can safely be ignored? Feels like about 3 different times just during the last month.

 

[Emblem Lord]

ESAM says Ryu is bad when he alone has carried Pika since Brawl while Ryu not even 6 months old has made waves on a national level already.

I think its safe to say we can ignore his opinion on Ryu at least.

 

[TriTails]

Did Mr. CC not enter Paragon?

And as you guys can see, if Mr. CC isn't attending a tourney chances you're not gonna see some top Luigi play there.

(Everyone's dropping Luigi for second. Welp)

I feel like we have talked ins and outs of each character... in singles. So what if we talked about character viability in doubles? For example Lil'Mac is ok character in singles, but when thrown into doubles environment... Oh boy! Just like in Pokemon some of the Pokemons (characters) might be NU/RU (C tier) in singles, but in doubles UU/OU (B/A tier).

Doubles doesn't seem as relevant as singles. Not to mention there's some janky things that can happen in doubles... Snaring Pocket, Vanish Bucket, etc.

Although, sometimes something worth in Hall of Fame like Warlock FLUDD Punch may pop up, or the mic-exploding double hit FJP that happened in Melee, or lulzy team SDs.

But most people seem to be hyped about singles only.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Good to see Ryu doing well. 5th as a secondary and 9th is a good start at national level. At least they got one DLC character right. Curious to see where the character will settle eventually but right now top 10 is looking likely.

So what else do we learn from Paragon?

* Nairo is very likely playing on his own level right below Zero's. Zero, Mr r and ESAM are the only ones that seem able to take him right now. Not accounting for players like Ranai here but yeah, I think at this point it's fair to say that Nairo's is about a level above everybody else and that people like Larry, Shaky and MVD losing to him doesn't really mean much in regards to how the characters are matched up against each other.

* ZSS is #2 in this game right now. End of discussion. Any doubts left about that officially belong in the realm of fantasy. There's a gap between ZSS and the next best character too. A gap between Sheik and ZSS though? Remains to be seen. As long as Zero is at least one level above everybody else his results should be taken with a grain of salt. Mr r and Rain both seem beatable these days though and they are #2 and #3 with Sheik respectively.

* Diddy is very, very likely #3 right now. I don't really see who else qualifies. Character is still blatantly top tier and as long as Luigi doesn't actually do anything in tournament Diddy doesn't have much holding him back.

* Pikachu is still carried entirely by ESAM which I don't quite understand considering that Pikachu is not only a very good character but also not very hard to play. But at this point I'm starting to become less sure about Pikachu being top 5 after all ... a lot of non-high tiers seem to be able to go evenish with him and the amount of high/top characters that supposedly lose to Pikachu is becoming lower. It used to be ZSS, Fox, Diddy, Rosie and Sonic, now it's basically just ZSS and maybe Rosalina that's left. No real argument exists for the other characters as far as I know.



How many times has this been talked about in this thread already? That ESAM's and especially Zero's opinions can safely be ignored? Feels like about 3 different times just during the last month.

ZSS 2nd, and anything else is fantasy? I don't think so. ZSS is great, but both Pikachu and Rosalina have more strengths than ZSS. She's better at killing than both of them, but Rosalina, when played in the way Dabuz does (The Everyone on Twitch will hate you type) can be very hard to hit, and you'd have a harder time than any ZSS with the same skill (Obvisualy Nairo is harder than Dabuz.) Pikachu has great combo ability (And by great, I mean REALLY great), great damage-racking, many great attacks, good grab game, great tilts, great smashes, great air attacks...... Really, there's no way ZSS is better than him. She should probably be in 4th.

For Diddy, he probably still isn't 3rd yet. The nerfs were big, it made it impossible for him to be top five, and while he is top tier (duh), he still isn't as good as Mario and Ness and Sonic and Fox and etc. They either have more strengths, or less flaws, than Diddy Kong.

 

[meleebrawler]

Good to see Ryu doing well. 5th as a secondary and 9th is a good start at national level. At least they got one DLC character right. Curious to see where the character will settle eventually but right now top 10 is looking likely.

Gee, a character hailing from a 1v1 fighting game does well in 1v1 scenarios? I never would've guessed!

 

[Emblem Lord]

Gee, a character hailing from a 1v1 fighting game does well in 1v1 scenarios? I never would've guessed!

What if I told you...

that Ryu is even stronger in doubles?

 

[TriTails]

ZSS 2nd, and anything else is fantasy? I don't think so. ZSS is great, but both Pikachu and Rosalina have more strengths than ZSS.

You what.

 

[meleebrawler]

What if I told you...

that Ryu is even stronger in doubles?

I'm sure Marvel vs. Capcom let him do things that'd be impossible in normal Street Fighter as well...

 

[Xeze]

Diddy is better than Mario, that's as clear as water. The only top level Mario you see is Ally (with Zenyou being close second).

 

[TriTails]

Diddy is better than Mario, that's as clear as water. The only top level Mario you see is Ally (with Zenyou being close second).

Actually. I regretted quoting that. I remembered Mario does fairly well against the top while losing to not too much random characters (Dat Luigi matchup tho).

And you don't count XeroXen (Man. That's a cool name)? Guy lands 2 D-throw F-airs in a match IIRC.

Granted, he kinda got bodied by ZeRo... but... it's friggin ZeRo. But IDK on his current peformance.

 

[Xeze]

Actually. I regretted quoting that. I remembered Mario does fairly well against the top while losing to not too much random characters (Dat Luigi matchup tho).

And you don't count XeroXen (Man. That's a cool name)? Guy lands 2 D-throw F-airs in a match IIRC.

Granted, he kinda got bodied by ZeRo... but... it's friggin ZeRo. But IDK on his current peformance.

Mario does well, considering that there weren't many Luigis in top 32 lately. As we saw yesterday, on Ally vs Mr. R, Mario does well against Sheik. Might not win the MU but it's probably close to even.

You're right, XeroXen is pretty good. I haven't seen any tournament matches from him lately, though.

 

[Wtfwasthat]

@ TriTails Mr. CC didnt go to paragon

I think that not seeing a single luigi in top 64 is shocking, but it also shows how many players arent really picking him up like they did when the game came out.

 

[Trifroze]

* Nairo is very likely playing on his own level right below Zero's.

* ZSS is #2 in this game right now. End of discussion. Any doubts left about that officially belong in the realm of fantasy.

Hey look, I see a connection here.

So why exactly is ZSS so unanimously 2nd? Because she can sometimes kill you at 50% on low ceiling stages off of a grab that is punishable by the heaviest kill moves in the game, or because she can sometimes kill you at 50% with nair to down b if your opponent doesn't DI the nair, or because she has a meteor aerial in general? She's a great character but most things we see from her can be attributed to player skill because it's always Nairo using her. Which brings me to:

Esam really dropped the ball this tourney, so far it looks like Nairo is far ahead of esam level. Also pikachu it's looking more like a 5th-8th best character rather than a 2nd-4th one.

Pikachu never was top 5, it was ESAM.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

This is just my own tier list(since there's alot of characters that I'm not sure about yet, I'll just put them somewhere reasonable). You can question anyone you want. Miis included though idk where they'd be in the first place, so I'll guees with them to.

S:

A+:
A:
A-:/

B:

C+:/
C-:

D:

F:

 

[~ Gheb ~]

She's a great character but most things we see from her can be attributed to player skill because it's always Nairo using her.

And Nick Riddle ... and Choco ... and quiksilver ... and Leon ... and and and ....

Sure Nairo is doing a lot of work for her. But if you think it's only him that brings in the results you're quite wrong. She's not #2 because Nairo uses her. Nairo just shows us why she's #2 right now.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

I honestly don't think Rosalina is 2nd best in the game, she's probably one of the most beatable top tiers in the game. Though I'm a Wario main so I may be biased.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Why do some characters (like the notable ones and Palutena) have a (**) next to them? I read the OP but it doesn't seem to give an explanation for them.

@ Shaya

 

[Rashyboy05]

This is just my own tier list(since there's alot of characters that I'm not sure about yet, I'll just put them somewhere reasonable). You can question anyone you want. Miis included though idk where they'd be in the first place, so I'll guees with them to.

S:

A+:
A:
A-:/

B:

C+:/
C-:

D:

F:

Alright, are Miis allowed to use their customs moves? If yes, why is Gunner lower than Swordfighter? If no, why is Brawler placed so high? Any particular reason for Bowser and Robin's placement? Why is Zelda not in the bottom 5? Why isn't ZSS in the same placement as Pikachu and Rosalina? Why is Falco higher than Ike, DK and Greninja? Marth/Lucina being the worst of the FE swordies? I can't see it. Please explain.

 

[Nu~]

This is just my own tier list(since there's alot of characters that I'm not sure about yet, I'll just put them somewhere reasonable). You can question anyone you want. Miis included though idk where they'd be in the first place, so I'll guees with them to.

S:

A+:
A:
A-:/

B:

C+:/
C-:

D:

F:

Explain Pacman in the same tier as Falco and bowser

 

[|RK|]

Nairo's ZSS flows like water. Beautiful movement.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

This is just my own tier list(since there's alot of characters that I'm not sure about yet, I'll just put them somewhere reasonable). You can question anyone you want. Miis included though idk where they'd be in the first place, so I'll guees with them to.

S:

A+:
A:
A-:/

B:

C+:/
C-:

D:

F:

Couple things I want to ask:

• Could you explain why you put Bowser in a higher place than Jr, Megaman, DK, Lucas, Pac-Man, and Greninja?
• I'm assuming Miis are allowed full movesets, since Brawler is so high. But then why is Gunner so low?
• Why is Lucario so low? He's inconsistent, yes, but he still has strong tools and has been shown to be a very capable character. Should be B tier at the least.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Gee, a character hailing from a 1v1 fighting game does well in 1v1 scenarios? I never would've guessed!

wait what? how does this make sense?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Alright, are Miis allowed to use their customs moves? If yes, why is Gunner higher than Swordfighter? If no, why is Brawler placed so high? Any particular reason for Bowser and Robin's placement? Why is Zelda not in the bottom 5? Why isn't ZSS in the same placement as Pikachu and Rosalina? Why is Falco higher than Ike, DK and Greninja? Marth/Lucina being the worst of the FE swordies? I can't see it. Please explain.

Swordfighter is higher than Gunner.
ZSS I don't think deserves to be in the top 3 just because of Nairo putting in work.
Falco I wasn't sure where to p it him, so I put him next to Ike.
Marth/Lucina I believe are the worst in the Fire Emblem group, atleast they have combos that will connect and pretty reasonable setups. Marth and Lucina some of their moves don't have combos that actually connect.
Brawler seems to be a high tier character since with and without customs, it doesn't disappoint.
Bowser and Robin are really good characters and should be higher if it wasn't for the fact that bit alot of people play them.
Zelda's buffs save her from being bottom 5.

 

[Wintermelon43]

This is just my own tier list(since there's alot of characters that I'm not sure about yet, I'll just put them somewhere reasonable). You can question anyone you want. Miis included though idk where they'd be in the first place, so I'll guees with them to.

S:

A+:
A:
A-:/

B:

C+:/
C-:

D:

F:

Pac-Man 36th? Have you ever even seen Abadango? He has great KO Power, he's hard to kill and even attack, he has great projectiles, he has great recovery, and he has great results too, for people who like results (I son't use them myself, but others do soooooo). There's absoluty no excuse whatsoever to put him below top 18.

Otherwise, here are my thoughts:

If this is customs off, Mii Brawler is nowhere near where he is whatsoever. He's just awful without his Helicoptor Kick, simple enough.

Shulk's nowhere near 49th too, he has great range and his monados are really good, and he has great KO power. He can easily survive due to Shield, KO even easier with Smash, Rack damage easier with Buster, combo easily with Speed, and recover better with Jump.

King Dedede isn't the 4th worst, he has great comboing and KO Power, and can easily get damage. And he has good range. Frame data screws him over, but not THAT bad.

Captain Falcon has too many flaws to be up there, such as having a terrible recovery and having trouble KOing without using his forward smash or forward air, which you can only use at the right moment (You can use forward air, but the really good hit is hard to get.

Ryu I don't think is THAT good either, but I don't have him myself so I won't complain it.

Diddy isn't THAT good for reasons said above.

Meta Knight, Olimar, Villager, and Peach are all way better than the Pits, the Pits have trouble KOing or racking damage. Meta Knight should also be top tier, he has amazing combos, great dash attack, airs, and specials, no trouble koing at all, in fact it's easy for him to KO.

Falco shoudn't be THAT high in that tier, Fox does everything he does better apart from recovery, and ot can be a pain for him to combo, and he's slow.

Bowser and Game & Watch are nowhere near that spot. Bowser has terrible frame data, has slow speeds in everyone but running, bad approach, and doesn't have many combos. Game & Watch has trouble KOing without His down special (Which can both be hard to get one hit with, let alone all three, and most characters can't do anyhing to his bucket.)

Zelda shoudn't be that high, she sucks at everything but KO Power, Damageing, and recovery. TERRIBLY. And a ton of attacks suck extremely badly, like Samus, but less extreme.

Lucario has great matchups aganist really good top tiers like Sheik, and can KO VERY well at high percents, and live while at it, plus good damage racking with enough aura, a great projectile, pretty fast, and good or great, depending on how much aura, recovery.

Pretty good otherwise.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Explain Pacman in the same tier as Falco and bowser

I was gonna place him in low high tier, but decided to leave him in high mid for now.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I was gonna place him in low high tier, but decided to leave him in high mid for now.

Wait, are the tiers in order or ties?

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Again, how is Diddy top 3 when he loses to Mario, Luigi, and Rosalina? He's could be top 5 but Mario, Sonic, Rosalina, are more reliable for tournament than he is going of the matchup spreads. And I still think the jury is still out on pikachu but whatever.

Going even with Shiek would be great if that's true but there's more to winning tournaments consistently than beating Shiek. Even in matchups that are possibly in his favor the margin for error is very small and he can't punish as hard as other top tiers. You could see that pretty plainly in the MVD vs Nairo set.

 

[Rashyboy05]

Swordfighter is higher than Gunner.
ZSS I don't think deserves to be in the top 3 just because of Nairo putting in work.
Falco I wasn't sure where to p it him, so I put him next to Ike.
Marth/Lucina I believe are the worst in the Fire Emblem group, atleast they have combos that will connect and pretty reasonable setups. Marth and Lucina some of their moves don't have combos that actually connect.
Brawler seems to be a high tier character since with and without customs, it doesn't disappoint.
Bowser and Robin are really good characters and should be higher if it wasn't for the fact that bit alot of people play them.
Zelda's buffs save her from being bottom 5.

I edited that comment as soon as I realized my mistake. I was asking as to why is Swordfighter higher than Gunner
The only notable Rosalina and Pikachu players are just Dabuz and ESAM respectively. How are they any different with ZSS's situation with Nairo?
That's... actually bad reasoning.. Since Ike has been praised by top players like ZeRo for being good then having Falco higher than Ike just doesn't make any sense,
Despite me maining Marth/Lucina. I obviously don't how to defend Marth without getting visciously attacked by his haters here so I'll leave that topic alone for now.
Yet they both have glaring flaws like slow frame data and extremely **** mobility?
Brawler, none customs and good in the sentence. hah.
And yet you put Palutena who has been getting results lately thanks to Aerolink and Ryo AND has her own version of a hoo-hah and Mii Gunner whose customs are really good in the same bottom 5.

 

[The Slayer]

This is just my own tier list(since there's alot of characters that I'm not sure about yet, I'll just put them somewhere reasonable). You can question anyone you want. Miis included though idk where they'd be in the first place, so I'll guees with them to.

S:

A+:
A:
A-:/

B:

C+:/
C-:

D:

F:

Samus is broken and need of fixes, but I wouldn't say she's should be in her own bottom tier. She has her hitbox problems and her kill moves aren't effective at lower percentages, but she does have pressure and decent (not grand or spectacular) recovery options.

Also, Doc, Zelda, and Swordfighter are a bit high. Lucario and Shulk seems a bit low.

 

[Trifroze]

And Nick Riddle ... and Choco ... and quiksilver ... and Leon ... and and and ....

Sure Nairo is doing a lot of work for her. But if you think it's only him that brings in the results you're quite wrong. She's not #2 because Nairo uses her. Nairo just shows us why she's #2 right now.

Almost every top 10-20 character has an equal amount of players doing work if you're talking about regional or local level. They're great players, but if you're lowering the playing field you have to lower it for other characters too in which case ZSS' success remains average compared to other top tiers.