Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Steelballray]

@ TMNTSSB4 it really feels like you were really bored and felt like making a tier list even though you don't know the game well.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Pac-Man 36th? Have you ever even seen Abadango? He has great KO Power, he's hard to kill and even attack, he has great projectiles, he has great recovery, and he has great results too, for people who like results (I son't use them myself, but others do soooooo). There's absoluty no excuse whatsoever to put him below top 18.

Otherwise, here are my thoughts:

If this is customs off, Mii Brawler is nowhere near where he is whatsoever. He's just awful without his Helicoptor Kick, simple enough.

Shulk's nowhere near 49th too, he has great range and his monados are really good, and he has great KO power. He can easily survive due to Shield, KO even easier with Smash, Rack damage easier with Buster, combo easily with Speed, and recover better with Jump.

King Dedede isn't the 4th worst, he has great comboing and KO Power, and can easily get damage. And he has good range. Frame data screws him over, but not THAT bad.

Captain Falcon has too many flaws to be up there, such as having a terrible recovery and having trouble KOing without using his forward smash or forward air, which you can only use at the right moment (You can use forward air, but the really good hit is hard to get.

Ryu I don't think is THAT good either, but I don't have him myself so I won't complain it.

Diddy isn't THAT good for reasons said above.

Meta Knight, Olimar, Villager, and Peach are all way better than the Pits, the Pits have trouble KOing or racking damage. Meta Knight should also be top tier, he has amazing combos, great dash attack, airs, and specials, no trouble koing at all, in fact it's easy for him to KO.

Falco shoudn't be THAT high in that tier, Fox does everything he does better apart from recovery, and ot can be a pain for him to combo, and he's slow.

Bowser and Game & Watch are nowhere near that spot. Bowser has terrible frame data, has slow speeds in everyone but running, bad approach, and doesn't have many combos. Game & Watch has trouble KOing without His down special (Which can both be hard to get one hit with, let alone all three, and most characters can't do anyhing to his bucket.)

Zelda shoudn't be that high, she sucks at everything but KO Power, Damageing, and recovery. TERRIBLY. And a ton of attacks suck extremely badly, like Samus, but less extreme.

Lucario has great matchups aganist really good top tiers like Sheik, and can KO VERY well at high percents, and live while at it, plus good damage racking with enough aura, a great projectile, pretty fast, and good or great, depending on how much aura, recovery.

Pretty good otherwise.

Noone is in any order except for the ones in S tier, everyone else is just packed randomly.

If you use Pit right, then you don't have problems KO'ing...at all. Peach has more kill moves in the air, Meta Knight most people only place him as top tier just because of Leo(or whatever his name is), Olimar...just throws Pikmin pretty much(just like what Acestarthe3rd says about him). It may give him ko moves, but without them he sucks. Shiek has very few kill moves, and alot of her moves don't ko until 160% or even higher. Villager may have kill moves, but if he's riding on a gyro or doesn't pocket a deflected tree, screwed.
Zelda, just like Pit/Dark Pit, has to work for it and play smart.

Game and Watch has his toot toot and Side B aswell.

Lucario still needs results to move up.

@ TMNTSSB4 it really feels like you were really bored and felt like making a tier list even though you don't know the game well.

Nah, just don't know some of the characters, but I know some don't deserve all the praise they get over one person using them.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Again, how is Diddy top 3 when he loses to Mario, Luigi, and Rosalina?

Because those characters don't actually exist on a national level except for Ally and dabuz.

Almost every top 10-20 character has an equal amount of players doing work if you're talking about regional or local level.

Choco, Nick, Leon and quik ... are all national level players. Have you seen their placings? Do you know where they compete? All of them are top 5 ranked players in their regions ... some of them are among the best region of the world [NJ/NY in Nairo's case, Japan in Choco's case and FL in Nick's case]. France and Germany are also probably the two strongest regions in europe.

So yeah we're not talking about "regional", let alone "local" level.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Samus is broken and need of fixes, but I wouldn't say she's should be in her own bottom tier. She has her hitbox problems and her kill moves aren't effective at lower percentages, but she does have pressure and decent (not grand or spectacular) recovery options.

Also, Doc, Zelda, and Swordfighter are a bit high. Lucario and Shulk seems a bit low.

I think Doc and Sword fighter's placements are fine. Zelda could go lower, yeah. Shulk should go down if anything, not up.

 

[wedl!!]

MK is only considered good because of Leo? Are you serious?

also, for future reference, ace isn't good at this game and you shouldn't use his opinions to justify yours

 

[Wintermelon43]

Noone is in any order except for the ones in S tier, everyone else is just packed randomly.

If you use Pit right, then you don't have problems KO'ing...at all. Peach has more kill moves in the air, Meta Knight most people only place him as top tier just because of Leo(or whatever his name is), Olimar...just throws Pikmin pretty much(just like what Acestarthe3rd says about him). It may give him ko moves, but without them he sucks. Shiek has very few kill moves, and alot of her moves don't ko until 160% or even higher. Villager may have kill moves, but if he's riding on a gyro or doesn't pocket a deflected tree, screwed.
Zelda, just like Pit/Dark Pit, has to work for it and play smart.

Game and Watch has his toot toot and Side B aswell.

Lucario still needs results to move up.

Pit's fine where he is if the tiers aren't in order.

Also Meta Knight is top tier due to amazing kill ability and ko power, and amazing combo ability. like EXTREMELY amazing. And one of the best matchup spreads in the game.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Samus is broken and need of fixes, but I wouldn't say she's should be in her own bottom tier. She has her hitbox problems and her kill moves aren't effective at lower percentages, but she does have pressure and decent (not grand or spectacular) recovery options.

Also, Doc, Zelda, and Swordfighter are a bit high. Lucario and Shulk seems a bit low.

Shulk I haven't really seem much in the competitive scene, Doc deserves some love, and Swordfighter can go either way.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Because those characters don't actually exist on a national level except for Ally and Dabuz.

Ally and Dabuz are like guaranteed top 8 at every major they attend, which is just about all of them. Luigi players haven't been doing too hot lately as a lot of people are planning in advance for him but it's not like they don't exist.

There will also be an army of Luigis and Marios to push through at every major. You're implying that the MUs Diddy struggles in aren't relevant because they don't happen often which really isn't true.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Pit's fine where he is if the tiers aren't in order.

Also Meta Knight is top tier due to amazing kill ability and ko power, and amazing combo ability. like EXTREMELY amazing. And one of the best matchup spreads in the game.

Yet he's never been placed in the top tier section. I'm not saying he doesn't have a chance in being top tier because he does(without being like he was in Brawl), bUT Ryu has more of a chance in becoming top tier than he does.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ally and Dabuz are like guaranteed top 8 at every major they attend, which is just about all of them. Luigi players haven't been doing too hot lately as a lot of people are planning in advance for him but it's not like they don't exist.

There will also be an army of Luigis and Marios to push through at every major. You're implying that the MUs Diddy struggles in aren't relevant because they don't happen often which really isn't true.

And yet none of that prevents Diddy from showing up in just about every top 8 in every major.

So either these matchups aren't bad enough to actually hold Diddy back noticeably or they are so rare that they don't actually hold Diddy back noticeably.

Take your pick.

 

[Trifroze]

Because those characters don't actually exist on a national level except for Ally and dabuz.



Choco, Nick, Leon and quik ... are all national level players. Have you seen their placings? Do you know where they compete? All of them are top 5 ranked players in their regions ... some of them are among the best region of the world [NJ/NY in Nairo's case, Japan in Choco's case and FL in Nick's case]. France and Germany are also probably the two strongest regions in europe.

So yeah we're not talking about "regional", let alone "local" level.

"National" in Germany or France doesn't mean anything compared to the nationals in the US. Hell, Finland had a "national" a month ago with French and Swedish players in it. Every (bi)monthly we have is a "national".

Choco doesn't really do that much better than the other good players in Japan.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Ally and Dabuz are like guaranteed top 8 at every major they attend, which is just about all of them. Luigi players haven't been doing too hot lately as a lot of people are planning in advance for him but it's not like they don't exist.

There will also be an army of Luigis and Marios to push through at every major. You're implying that the MUs Diddy struggles in aren't relevant because they don't happen often which really isn't true.

Dabuz got 9th at Super Smash Con

 

[warionumbah2]

Meta Knight most people only place him as top tier just because of Leo(or whatever his name is)

Ok ok, you need to chill fam.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

And yet none of that prevents Diddy from showing up in just about every top 8 in every major.

So either these matchups aren't bad enough to actually hold Diddy back noticeably or they are so rare that they don't actually hold Diddy back noticeably.

Take your pick.

I mean I'm not trying to say he's trash, just probably #5, maybe #6 IMO. Probably slightly behind Rosalina and Mario, who are also present in almost every major, and maybe Sonic who is present in a lot of them. As well as Shiek and zss.

 

[Jamurai]

Every time someone hails Leo as the only high level MK, a baby bat dies.

 

[Djent]

FYI, the only character that's looking close to ZSS in my (ongoing) MU chart is...Fox. Though right now I only have Sheik weighted at 2x...Diddy at 3rd is arguable though depending on how much weight you put on that Sheik MU. At this point I'm inclined to call the MU even, maybe it's "55:45" one way but such fine-grained distinctions are hard to distinguish from noise. When MVD was "off" Vinnie walked all over him, when he was "on" he soundly defeated Mr-R (whom he is now 2-0 against). Even Nairo has a negative record vs. Mr-R (2-3 as ZSS I believe...); that should tell you something.

Choco doesn't really do that much better than the other good players in Japan.

He's probably their 3rd best player, though Rain and Ranai are in a tier by themselves. Barring an unusually-low 9th place finish most recently, he typically places 2nd behind Rain at Umebura events and is one of the few players to have more than one win vs. Ranai.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

And yet none of that prevents Diddy from showing up in just about every top 8 in every major.

So either these matchups aren't bad enough to actually hold Diddy back noticeably or they are so rare that they don't actually hold Diddy back noticeably.

Take your pick.

Did Kong is in top 8 at every Smash tournament(except some Xanadus).

Ok ok, you need to chill fam.

...I'm not even mad though.



Bruh

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Can we talk about how Shiek looks a lot less dominant when zero isn't there? Mr. R losing to MVD and Ally. Both Mario and Diddy are starting to look totally doable vs Shiek.

What happened to Vinnie and other notable Shiek players? I missed the first part of the tourney.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Can we talk about how Shiek looks a lot less dominant when zero isn't there? Mr. R losing to MVD and Ally. Both Mario and Diddy are starting to look totally doable vs Shiek.

What happened to Vinnie and other notable Shiek players? I missed the first part of the tourney.

Vinnie wasn't there either. Mr. R. was the main Sheik there.

 

[Rikkhan]

So I updated my tournament results tier list, added paragon as well as other tourneys like umebura 19 and extra points for secondaries, so far the tier list is looking like this:

S tier (> 500)
1.-Sheik 1040

A+ tier (200-499)
2.-Zero Suit Samus 447
3.-Rosalina 357
4.-Diddy Kong 286
5.-Mario 245

A tier (120-200)
6.-Fox 165
7.-Captain Falcon 154
8.-Pikachu 148
9.-Ness 133
10.-Sonic 125

B+ tier (90-119)
11.-Luigi 111
12.-Pac-Man 110
13.-Peach 105
14.-Donkey Kong 90

B tier (50-89)
15.-Villager 75
16.-Lucario 65
17.-Yoshi 61
18.-Wii Fit Trainer 55
19.-Ryu 53
20.-ROB 50

Google doc: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dc5FhYjDliK7Eefx5W7AJruSgH6gNnWWaYn7AZCA6n0/edit#gid=0
Thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-data-project-character-rankings-and-usage.416049/

 

[TMNTSSB4]

So I updated my tournament results tier list, added paragon as well as other tourneys like umebura 19 and extra points for secondaries, so far the tier list is looking like this:

S tier (> 500)
1.-Sheik 1040

A+ tier (200-499)
2.-Zero Suit Samus 447
3.-Rosalina 357
4.-Diddy Kong 286
5.-Mario 245

A tier (120-200)
6.-Fox 165
7.-Captain Falcon 154
8.-Pikachu 148
9.-Ness 133
10.-Sonic 125

B+ tier (90-119)
11.-Luigi 111
12.-Pac-Man 110
13.-Peach 105
14.-Donkey Kong 90

B tier (50-89)
15.-Villager 75
16.-Lucario 65
17.-Yoshi 61
18.-Wii Fit Trainer 55
19.-Ryu 53
20.-ROB 50

Google doc: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dc5FhYjDliK7Eefx5W7AJruSgH6gNnWWaYn7AZCA6n0/edit#gid=0
Thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-data-project-character-rankings-and-usage.416049/

Looking at this, I imagine that Dark Pit will be seen a couple times during big events since alot of people stoppedal using him, while Pit will be seen in events like Xanadu or Rush Hour Smash tourneys.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

And yet you put Palutena who has been getting results lately thanks to Aerolink and Ryo AND has her own version of a hoo-hah

???

I haven't seen Ryo pull Palutena out in a while. Did you get him confused with someone else or did I miss something?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

???

I haven't seen Ryo pull Palutena out in a while. Did you get him confused with someone else or did I miss something?

Maybe he's working on his Palutena to get better.

 

[warionumbah2]

...I'm not even mad though.



Bruh

No i mean as you in you need to chill with the false info. Who cares about tyrant who placed high at ceo, evo and paragon filled with players stronger than the players leo faces?

Who cares about ito and salena. im not bothered about the lists posted here(apparantly yours is terrible but hey) but saying that leo single handedly made mk top tier is insulting to the 3 top mks who were putting in work before leo even existed to us.

Your new here so I didn't expect a good explanation on where ever you placed mk, didn't expeect you to praise leo that hard tho disappointing.

 

[Mettie7]

Every time someone hails Leo as the only high level MK, a baby bat dies.

Dozens dead, hundreds injured.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

"National" in Germany or France doesn't mean anything compared to the nationals in the US. Hell, Finland had a "national" a month ago with French and Swedish players in it. Every (bi)monthly we have is a "national".

Sure, but Leon and quik are even europe-wide threats if that's the standard we're going with now.

Choco doesn't really do that much better than the other good players in Japan.

Uh, yes he does? Ranai, Rain and Edge are the only players in japan that can be argued to be above him.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

No i mean as you in you need to chill with the false info. Who cares about tyrant who placed high at ceo, evo and paragon filled with players stronger than the players leo faces?

Who cares about ito and salena. im not bothered about the lists posted here(apparantly yours is terrible but hey) but saying that leo single handedly made mk top tier is insulting to the 3 top mks who were putting in work before leo even existed to us.

Your new here so I didn't expect a good explanation on where ever you placed mk, didn't expeect you to praise leo that hard tho disappointing.

When did I say that Leo instantly made him top tier? I said that alot of people instantly claimed that he was to tier just because of him, you didn't read and/or understand what I meant obviously. If I said someone like DeDeDe was too tier because he only needs a Gordo to be the best, then I would be giving false info. I admit him beating Mr.R with Meta Knight is pretty cool, but I'm not gonna make him top tier just because, that's just ********. I dont even kniw why you instantlt think that I'm praising Leo over one win, like comeon use common sense man. He can be low high tier or even high mid for all I care, doesn't mean crap until an actual tier list comes out within a year or so depending on dlc and patches.

 

[Vipermoon]

Some of the posts in the end of the last page and the beginning of this page are de ja vu.

So either something weird is going on or this thread is a broken record.

 

[Amadeus9]

Some of the posts in the end of the last page and the beginning of this page are de ja vu.

So either something weird is going on or this thread is a broken record.

Thread has no direction and gets derailed often by uniformed opinion which should be ignored, but doesn't. The thread needs a more direct approach imo. Maybe limit discussion to 5 or so characters for a week. Whatever it is that needs to be done, until it is done this thread will remain very unproductive.

The past month has basically been about roy, marth, mk, and people suggesting sheik nerfs, with the occasional completely off topic foray or discussion of a tournament (which should have its own thread).

Kinda nonsensical.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Thread has no direction and gets derailed often by uniformed opinion which should be ignored, but doesn't. The thread needs a more direct approach imo. Maybe limit discussion to 5 or so characters for a week. Whatever it is that needs to be done, until it is done this thread will remain very unproductive.

The past month has basically been about roy, marth, mk, and people suggesting sheik nerfs, with the occasional completely off topic foray or discussion of a tournament (which should have its own thread).

Kinda nonsensical.

You know, that's actually a great idea. Maybe a whole seperate thread for tier lists too? Though that might be banned.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'm very sad that I'm seeing people saying 1-1-1-1 Brawler and Sword are garbage here after I lined out quite clearly how they can do tons of stuff the characters we like to say are top tier do. Lemme quote that again in case it got missed:

Spoiler

Someone mentioned 1-1-1-1 Mii Brawler. Well it's time for an adventure in the weird fun facts I know about characters no one else pays attention to!

Fun Fact: Down throw into fair into grab reset into pummel into downthrow into fair reset into down throw into up air into back air can do 60% DAMAGE ON SHEIK FROM 0%. And yeah if you follow DI it can true combo from as far as any testing/matches I've had can tell. Works on a lot of fast fallers/heavies. This combo can do a lot of things too like you can go for dair and finish it early but try to spike off stage and other stuff.

Down throw into up b near the ledge at low percents can either spike (with you dieing with them) or you can just down throw - dair them. Down tilt can start combos and goes into up air until rather high percents and up tilt can start some things too.

The shotput can work for zoning and as a unique movement option, up b can spike folks with creative ledge trumping, side b is an okay punish and as far as I know down b is crap outside of a magical hard read at high percents to try and link into f-smash.

So you have a Marioish character that can actually put up some serious damage rather early and quickly. Here's the issue: KILLING WITH MII BRAWLER IS A [expletive deleted]

F-smash is SO laggy. Up smash takes a while to kill but as an odd tipper at the end of the move that could have edge guarding properties. side b can kill but it takes a strong punish at high percents. Outside of spikes if you're lucky there's maybe down smash which isn't horrible but isn't great either.

So in all honesty, we probably have a yoshi-esque character in a way where they have decent speed and can wrack up damage but as of now securing the kill is a pain. Plus with a rather linear recovery gimping is doable. To be honest I could still see Mii Brawler actually being high up there on the viable list but probably JUST at the very end.

---​

Now onto the Mii I also know a lot about: Swordfighter. He's basically got 3 of the best moves he could want in 1-1-1-1: he's the Mii hurt the least by that arbitrary rule. I'll put it bluntly: if you think characters like Roy, Ike and Marth should be up there you probably should put Swordfighter right near them in a neat little bunch.

His buffs have been great for wracking on more damage, speed, and being a bit more safe. Fair can cancel into kill moves (and jab can too as a 50/50), his recovery has the sexy spike, up air can kill and combos out of throws very well, down air can poke shields, makes coming down nice, and can combo into footstool nicely for combos and/or off stage death. Bair can do nice damage and is rather fast/kill move. It can be comboed into too! Down tilt can combo into nair which can actually end up with grab resets at mid percents or you can just Fair for damage.

Hows about up air into up air TRUE COMBOS at kill percents? (is more complicated but is honestly landable for real)

He's a solid character with decent atributes, combos, and a disjoint. Don't count him out. He's nowheres near this whole (bottom character) thing people keep throwing him in. It's hard to cut the "worst character in the game" attitudes people got about him before ignoring he existed back in the early days

---​

Mii Gunner: ask someone who knows more. I gotta toy with gunner more in 1-1-1-1.

Get out of the dark ages. a 1-1-1-1 brawler could hold his own in the upper areas if we think Yoshi can and if you think Ike/Marth/Roy/Lucina is any good Swordfighter at worst trails right behind them (if not above some of them). People REALLY need to go learn about Miis more.

 

[|RK|]

Thread has no direction and gets derailed often by uniformed opinion which should be ignored, but doesn't. The thread needs a more direct approach imo. Maybe limit discussion to 5 or so characters for a week. Whatever it is that needs to be done, until it is done this thread will remain very unproductive.

The past month has basically been about roy, marth, mk, and people suggesting sheik nerfs, with the occasional completely off topic foray or discussion of a tournament (which should have its own thread).

Kinda nonsensical.

I actually don't mind the way it is. We discuss whatever tends to be relevant at the moment and tournaments are a great way to see theory meet action. There will be cycles and uninformed statements, but structuring the discussion really won't change any of that. Might even create lulls, and some educated people that may have a piece to add pages late won't get to do that.

If someone wants a new topic, suggest a new topic.

 

[Amadeus9]

I actually don't mind the way it is. We discuss whatever tends to be relevant at the moment and tournaments are a great way to see theory meet action. There will be cycles and uninformed statements, but structuring the discussion really won't change any of that. Might even create lulls, and some educated people that may have a piece to add pages late won't get to do that.

If someone wants a new topic, suggest a new topic.

That works great in theory and all, but so far it's worked pretty **** in practice.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Yo I heard Nairo demolished DEHF at paragon today anyone got a link? Sorry I've sorta tooken a break from smash so I'm a bit uniformed about these current events.

Melee didn't have patches and it turned out great. In fact, it's probably the most unbalanced game I've ever played. So how did people deal with Fox? Did they suggest how to nerf shine? Did they cry all day because of Uthrow Uair until it was removed? Did they wait until a patch comes out that will nerf his mobility? Did they all discuss how to tone down his neutral? No! They do their best at exploiting what are probably his only 2 weaknesses: getting combod/chaingrabbed, and gimping his recovery. Is he still the most oppressive character in the game, winning tourneys left and right with Fox dittos everywhere? Yes. But people learned to accept it and deal with it. We can do the same, but we just choose not to.

This might be too late for me too say but whatever.

You see Nacho back then there was no such thing as patches so we were pretty much accepting of what we had. And this wasn't just for melee it was also most fighting games before the ps3/360/wii era. You had third strike who's best characters which had chun li ,yun, ken, dudley, and makato dominating the meta . You had Marvel vs capcom 2 which only saw storm, magneto, cabel, and sentinel. With a bit of captain commando, cyclops, and iron man here and their. Yet since patches never existed no one complained. But now that we have patches the fg community is basically begging for patches left and right. In a sense patches sorta spoiled us. We demand more patches not because of balancing purpose but rather have the game match our image. to make the game look what we want it too look like. and how we wanted to play.

Also melee being the most broken game you've played. Look dude no offensive but melee was far from the most broken game in existence. Don't get me wrong fox was pretty busted with all the BS he had but he had weaknesses such as being light and easy to combo and was very hard to master(one of the hardest characters to master in melee). Also fox barely had as much wins compared to falco, sheik, and marth.

(I might get flamed or even recieve warning for this)
You wanna know whats more broken then melee?

BRAWL!!

In brawl you had the high tiers, you had the top tiers, and then you had metaknight a character who was leagues above everyone else. Like no other character even comes close to the amount of bull **** metaknight had. Not even the ice climbers and their inifinte chain grabs. Also fox in melee went even against two characters. Metaknight was even against no one. The only thing that came close to even with metaknight was pikachu.

This is just my own tier list(since there's alot of characters that I'm not sure about yet, I'll just put them somewhere reasonable). You can question anyone you want. Miis included though idk where they'd be in the first place, so I'll guees with them to.

S:

A+:
A:
A-:/

B:

C+:/
C-:

D:

F:

You care to explain how ryu is a tier higher then fox? I mean I know ryu's good and all but he's not that good.

 

[PK Gaming]

Thread has no direction and gets derailed often by uniformed opinion which should be ignored, but doesn't. The thread needs a more direct approach imo. Maybe limit discussion to 5 or so characters for a week. Whatever it is that needs to be done, until it is done this thread will remain very unproductive.

The past month has basically been about roy, marth, mk, and people suggesting sheik nerfs, with the occasional completely off topic foray or discussion of a tournament (which should have its own thread).

Kinda nonsensical.

Trying to dictate the course of the thread has been suggested in the past, and it has never worked. The mods already do a good enough job of reigning people in when things get out of hand.

The key to a better thread experience lies the most intelligent, civil, positive contributors posting here. We want people who lead by example as regulars to steer discussions in the right direction. We want people who don't lower themselves to the level of the people who flame them. We want people who can act independently and cooperatively with the other users/mods.

We should all focus on improving ourselves thereby making the thread a better experience collectively.

 

[Ffamran]

First off, @ TMNTSSB4 , stop double posting. Just use the edit function. Also, to you and anyone who wants to make a tier list, explain the placements. If you can't explain them, then don't put them on your tier list. I don't care if you end up with a tier list with 3 characters - at least your were able to rationally explain why they should be there.

Also, unless specified, don't assume a tier list is ordered or unordered except for say top tier and high tier. If I were to make a tier list it would only have 3 tiers: top, high, and the rest. First 2 are self-explanatory, but the rest? Those are the 40 unordered characters that are completely irrelevant to the current meta. I don't care how good Ike, Marth, Peach, or Pac-Man are. Unless we see a ton of consistent evidence from them, they are irrelevant. The only characters who managed to break out of that are Meta Knight and Ryu.

P
Falco shoudn't be THAT high in that tier, Fox does everything he does better apart from recovery, and ot can be a pain for him to combo, and he's slow.

Second off, what the hell? I agree that Falco shouldn't be that high up - swap him and Marth -, but TMNTSSB4 saying he didn't know where to put him makes it even less credible. That logic you have right there does not work when Fox and Falco aren't even similar anymore. It would be like saying Captain Falcon does everything better than Roy when apart from play styles is completely false. That logic could also render Falco, Roy, etc. the worst characters because everyone else would do things better than them.

For the record, Fox has the better recovery because of how Falco Phantasm works making it more punishable and because Fire Bird is strictly an inferior Fire Fox. For some reason, Fire Bird was never changed or evolved like other semi-clone moves. There are no redeeming qualities like Dark Dive vs. Falcon Dive, Mario's Super Jump Punch vs Dr. Mario's, Marth's Dolphin Slash vs. Roy's Blazer, the differing functions of Flame Choke when it evolved from Gerudo Dragon vs. Raptor Boost, or you could even argue Roy's Blazer vs. Peach's Parasol as similar moves. The only thing Falco has an edge on is his high jump.

 

[M15t3R E]

@ TMNTSSB4 I will continue to recommend to people not to post your own tier lists although no one is expressly prohibited from doing so. No matter who posts a tier list it gets picked apart like a small fish surrounded by a pack of piranhas. If anything, go to the tier list thread and be very vocal there.

 

[Mario766]

???

I haven't seen Ryo pull Palutena out in a while. Did you get him confused with someone else or did I miss something?

He just pulled it out last Smash Conference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YYK_WZGhKo

 

[NegaNixx]

Thread has no direction and gets derailed often by uniformed opinion which should be ignored, but doesn't. The thread needs a more direct approach imo. Maybe limit discussion to 5 or so characters for a week. Whatever it is that needs to be done, until it is done this thread will remain very unproductive.

The past month has basically been about roy, marth, mk, and people suggesting sheik nerfs, with the occasional completely off topic foray or discussion of a tournament (which should have its own thread).

Kinda nonsensical.

I thought this was our not quite social but still sort of social, tier list debating, opinion confirming/debunking, tournament hyping, top level result having match up spread debating thread.

In all honesty I check up on this to make sure I don't miss anything that happened. It's sort of like a news feed to me. I do learn some things about frame data though.

General Meta Discussion basically. What's going on and what has changed. That's just me though.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Yo I heard Nairo demolished DEHF at paragon today anyone got a link? Sorry I've sorta tooken a break from smash so I'm a bit uniformed about these current events.




This might be too late for me too say but whatever.

You see Nacho back then there was no such thing as patches so we were pretty much accepting of what we had. And this wasn't just for melee it was also most fighting games before the ps3/360/wii era. You had third strike who's best characters which had chun li ,yun, ken, dudley, and makato dominating the meta . You had Marvel vs capcom 2 which only saw storm, magneto, cabel, and sentinel. With a bit of captain commando, cyclops, and iron man here and their. Yet since patches never existed no one complained. But now that we have patches the fg community is basically begging for patches left and right. In a sense patches sorta spoiled us. We demand more patches not because of balancing purpose but rather have the game match our image. to make the game look what we want it too look like. and how we wanted to play.

Also melee being the most broken game you've played. Look dude no offensive but melee was far from the most broken game in existence. Don't get me wrong fox was pretty busted with all the BS he had but he had weaknesses such as being light and easy to combo and was very hard to master(one of the hardest characters to master in melee). Also fox barely had as much wins compared to falco, sheik, and marth.

(I might get flamed or even recieve warning for this)
You wanna know whats more broken then melee?

BRAWL!!

In brawl you had the high tiers, you had the top tiers, and then you had metaknight a character who was leagues above everyone else. Like no other character even comes close to the amount of bull **** metaknight had. Not even the ice climbers and their inifinte chain grabs. Also fox in melee went even against two characters. Metaknight was even against no one. The only thing that came close to even with metaknight was pikachu.



You care to explain how ryu is a tier higher then fox? I mean I know ryu's good and all but he's not that good.

Not gonna lie, didn't even realize that until you pointed it out.

First off, @ TMNTSSB4 , stop double posting. Just use the edit function. Also, to you and anyone who wants to make a tier list, explain the placements. If you can't explain them, then don't put them on your tier list. I don't care if you end up with a tier list with 3 characters - at least your were able to rationally explain why they should be there.

Also, unless specified, don't assume a tier list is ordered or unordered except for say top tier and high tier. If I were to make a tier list it would only have 3 tiers: top, high, and the rest. First 2 are self-explanatory, but the rest? Those are the 40 unordered characters that are completely irrelevant to the current meta. I don't care how good Ike, Marth, Peach, or Pac-Man are. Unless we see a ton of consistent evidence from them, they are irrelevant. The only characters who managed to break out of that are Meta Knight and Ryu.


Second off, what the hell? I agree that Falco shouldn't be that high up - swap him and Marth -, but TMNTSSB4 saying he didn't know where to put him makes it even less credible. That logic you have right there does not work when Fox and Falco aren't even similar anymore. It would be like saying Captain Falcon does everything better than Roy when apart from play styles is completely false. That logic could also render Falco, Roy, etc. the worst characters because everyone else would do things better than them.

For the record, Fox has the better recovery because of how Falco Phantasm works making it more punishable and because Fire Bird is strictly an inferior Fire Fox. For some reason, Fire Bird was never changed or evolved like other semi-clone moves - there are no redeeming qualities like Dark Dive vs. Falcon Dive, Mario's Super Jump Punch vs Dr. Mario's, Marth's Dolphin Slash vs. Roy's Blazer, the differing functions of Flame Choke when it evolved from Gerudo Dragon vs. Raptor Boost, or you could even argue Roy's Blazer vs. Peach's Parasol as similar moves. The only thing Falco has an edge on is his high jump.

I was trying to not double post, but for a while my phone wouldn't show the edit button.

@ TMNTSSB4 I will continue to recommend to people not to post your own tier lists although no one is expressly prohibited from doing so. No matter who posts a tier list it gets picked apart like a small fish surrounded by a pack of piranhas. If anything, go to the tier list thread and be very vocal there.

1. Cool profile pic
2. I expected it to happen, and decided to take the risk. Even though most people can't take an opinion, atleast they're being vocal(unless it's something really stupid, otherwise no.)