Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Yikarur]

I'm very sad that I'm seeing people saying 1-1-1-1 Brawler and Sword are garbage here after I lined out quite clearly how they can do tons of stuff the characters we like to say are top tier do.

The ruling is garbage because they shouldn't be restricted in the first place.

Someone mentioned 1-1-1-1 Mii Brawler. Well it's time for an adventure in the weird fun facts I know about characters no one else pays attention to!

Fun Fact: Down throw into fair into grab reset into pummel into downthrow into fair reset into down throw into up air into back air can do 60% DAMAGE ON SHEIK FROM 0%. And yeah if you follow DI it can true combo from as far as any testing/matches I've had can tell. Works on a lot of fast fallers/heavies. This combo can do a lot of things too like you can go for dair and finish it early but try to spike off stage and other stuff.

That's known among Brawler Mains. At least the one's I have contact with.

Down throw into up b near the ledge at low percents can either spike (with you dieing with them) or you can just down throw - dair them. Down tilt can start combos and goes into up air until rather high percents and up tilt can start some things too.

Dthrow dair is rarely a combo and not at relevant %.
And I think everyone should know about the basic moveset of a Brawler. uptilt -> upair strings to upair juggling. dtilt -> upair, Weak Nair -> Grab, Weak Nair -> Upsmash.
The Brawlers base moveset is really amazing. He just lacks a good kill set-ups beyond 100% if you're using helicopter kick.

side b is an okay punish and as far as I know

SideB is an amazing move. You can tech chase opponents really well with it. Nair -> opponent falling to the ground -> sideB techchase guarantees kills here and there.

So in all honesty, we probably have a yoshi-esque character in a way where they have decent speed and can wrack up damage but as of now securing the kill is a pain. Plus with a rather linear recovery gimping is doable. To be honest I could still see Mii Brawler actually being high up there on the viable list but probably JUST at the very end.

The Recovery of 1111 Mii Brawler is pretty terrible. I can even edge guarde 2122 Mii Brawler to his death because the recovery while being a lot better it still flawed.

---​

Now onto the Mii I also know a lot about: Swordfighter. He's basically got 3 of the best moves he could want in 1-1-1-1: he's the Mii hurt the least by that arbitrary rule.

Thank you for putting this down!
But instead of convincing people that 1111 is kinda ok, you should push forward to convince people to remove that arbitrary rule.
Mii Mains worldwide are bullied by this. I know people that have quit the game because they region restrict them.
I'm really happy that France, Germany, Norway and Spain let Mii Brawlers run free and as a result of Mii's being consistently free there are more and more Mii Mains and secondaries in germany.

He's a solid character with decent atributes, combos, and a disjoint. Don't count him out. He's nowheres near this whole (bottom character) thing people keep throwing him in. It's hard to cut the "worst character in the game" attitudes people got about him before ignoring he existed back in the early days

I don't think anyone things of him as one of the worst characters anymore. Especially with no move restrictions he is a really legit and fun character.

---​

Mii Gunner: ask someone who knows more. I gotta toy with gunner more in 1-1-1-1.

I sometimes play Gunner but I would never play the 1111 Gunner because 1111 doesn't suit my playstyle with him.

Get out of the dark ages. a 1-1-1-1 brawler could hold his own in the upper areas if we think Yoshi can and if you think Ike/Marth/Roy/Lucina is any good Swordfighter at worst trails right behind them (if not above some of them). People REALLY need to go learn about Miis more.

"Get out of the dark ages" would mean getting rid of that arbitrary rule
Mii Mains aren't going to try a crippled version of the character they love to play. I don't know a single Mii Main (and I know a lot of them) who would want to play Mii under 1111.
They are not garbage, but they are not the character mains want to play. It's really unfair that apex started the 1111 wagons, because pre-apex everyone was waiting for the Apex Ruling to apply it and they choose the one that makes the least sense.



btw I think it's pretty obvious that are in the Top5 of the game.
All 4 characters have a huge successful representation. Every other character doesn't come close to them so far.

 

[Tri Knight]

• Ike has no results except for Ryo stomping weeklies
• Peach actually gets results at tournaments that matter a lot more
• Ike is more notable than her

otherwise our top 10s are exactly the same except for fox>mario wtf

Ike also started from a punching bag to a very threatening tank. Not sure what Peach has gotten compared to that but personally I find Ike a lot more interesting overall anyway.

The fact that Ike is so notable even though his representation is very minimal could mean that he shows a lot of potential.

 

[thegrovylekid]

Well the list is full of stuff which makes no sense at all, such as Roy being even close to where he is and Donkey not being on the list at all. But most of all I find it odd that you felt the need to post this list in the first place. These tier lists really do little to encourage any constructive discussion seeing as about 80% of them are just smack full of errors. All they do is cause facepalms and instigate irritated responses.



TBH, we need a rule against this. If you think a character is better or worse than the general consensus deems it just make an argument about that. A tier list like this is essentially just a ****ton of blanket statements á "x character is this good/bad" condensed into a list, ie a whole lot of non-content. Why should people care about your blanket statements again?

I knew I forgot Someone.... let me go edit that.

 

[Megamang]

Ike is a pretty difficult MU for pika, although ESAM just got eliminated by a Peach yesterday... This should tell you that both are viable characters.

And even though Ike has losing MUs, killing consistency is really, really good for a tournament setting. Nothing worse than losing a game you should have won because you are just racking up damage and they charge a smash and kill you off the side at 50... Ike doesn't have that concern as much, both due to weight and his other options starting to kill.

Its the reason I go ZSS in pools. Those fast kills get you out of elimination station faster, and its very nice. Ike's new U-air is great anti-meta as well, since many MANY prevalent tournament characters really like low ceilings, and again vertical kills are consistent.

What are Ike/Peach's worst MUs? Someone went peach on me when I picked halbard, that was weird... Didn't work out for him, but he also ate a full laser before someone in the crowd told him to SDI...

 

[Thinkaman]

btw I think it's pretty obvious that are in the Top5 of the game.
All 4 characters have a huge successful representation. Every other character doesn't come close to them so far.

I feel like Top 6 is almost surely ->-> [///], customs or not. I will be the first to say that Pikachu is not our new overlord, but am not fully on the "ESAM is a fluke and Pika is meh" train.

It's good to take player skill into account regarding rarely-played strong characters, but I think people are starting to over-correct. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to play Sheik, Sheik is still really good.

Super happy we are finally getting past the idea that Diddy sucks now, that was easily the most annoying train of thought.

I'd like to see more discussion on (for once); if everything continues y = mx + b, how high will he go?

Also I didn't see the I'm Hip match where he beat Mr. R with DHD--what the hell happened???

 

[thegrovylekid]

Honestly, Ike's worst MU [in my opinion] is Shiek. In general, fast characters give Ike trouble, but the fact that Shiek has low lag moves hurts Ike a lot. All of Ike's smashes have more endlag than pretty much all of her moves combined, and the MU is just a mess in general.

 

[Gawain]

View attachment 72279
this was made using Warchamp7's #PostYourRosterHD, then minimized to 33% so it could all fit onto one screen.

The tiers are as follows:
Red - S
Blue - A+
Yellow - A
Green - B+
Orange - C+
Teal - C
Pink - D
Gray - E
Purple - F

Placements:
Rosalina & Luma over ZSS: I feel like ZSS's slow grab places her just behind the other two, who can easily tack on ~30% by punishing it. ZSS is definitely top 3 though, and easily S tier.

Luigi's low placement: Luigi has many flaws, including a hard time returning to the stage horizontally, a hard time landing from above, and awful traction, which outshine his combo ability and land him at 7th.

Ike in B+: Ike's spacing with his sword [second longest sword in the game] and ease of which he gets KOs, especially with BAir, which is his second fastest move and kills earlier than most of Shiek's moves make him a very strong character.

That's it, feel free to politely point out things you find odd!

Also, is probably 's worst matchup.

Incoming Marth defence force.

Joking aside I think it's fine but Marth isn't THAT bad. He's at least a color or two up

 

[Snackss]

Ryu has a very awkward neutral and a ridiculous punish game. You could see at Paragon LA that he wasn't really much for footsies and forward air is a lot of his neutral game, but one up tilt confirm and it's over.

aMSa isn't the only Greninja player, he was just already a big name. There's one named Lea who I don't know anything about, and one named Consome who got 5th at a tournament recently. But his representation in the West is pretty bad.

 

[san.]

What are Ike/Peach's worst MUs? Someone went peach on me when I picked halbard, that was weird... Didn't work out for him, but he also ate a full laser before someone in the crowd told him to SDI...

Every Ike player has differing opinions. Sheik is agreed to be the worst MU, even though it doesn't work out too badly in tournament due to human error. Ryo recently beat one of the best Sheiks in Florida pretty solidly.

SM dislikes Olimar but Ryuga doesn't have much of a problem.

Fox used to be one of his worst, but Fox's jab change helped even out the MU a bit more.

SM likes the Mario MU and I happen to dislike it.

Rosa and Luigi should be manageable but Ikes have been losing against them in tournament. However, these MUs haven't been played much since 1.1.0 where the uair change is very helpful. The latest one I can think of is SM vs. previously-ranked Aphro in Socal where SM won 2-1.

ZSS may be problematic, but that hasn't really been played at the highest level yet. Each has some pretty damaging things on the other (ZSS moreso).

Diddy/MK might also have a good MU vs. him but it really hasn't been played much at all.

DK could probably out-reward him, but it's overall very volatile of a matchup.

Then you have many evenish-looking MUs.

 

[Megamang]

I repeat this constantly, but killing consistently is really really nice for competitive play, and Ryu has that ability in spades. I regularly beat my friend's Ryu pretty badly, but he does almost as well in bracket as myself. The ability to get a guaranteed kill from his U-tilt is insanity, its basically a 2 frame kill move that also boasts invincibility if someone tries to punish a whiffed tilt. Mr R's shiek lost to Ally yesterday, but his Ryu almost took the set back. Often he made great comebacks because it only takes a few hits + a kill confirm and Ryu wins, while you have to beat the **** outta him and it only gives him rage.


I find his recovery is really hard to challenge as well, which gives him rage almost every stock... which makes TSRK even scarier.


He is definitely across the line to viable, and possible top 10, in my honest opinion.

EDIT: in my opinion, his strong jab is also an underutilized and amazingly strong killing tool when they are good at avoiding SRK.

Stages with platforms make TSRK harder to punish, but Ryu is limited by them more than other characters. Im on the fence about whether it is worth it.

Also, Kirby with Hadouken is hilariously amazing. Aerial Shakenetsu (sp) Hadouken is so stronk

 

[Rikkhan]

The thing with the tier lists is that aside from the top 10 characters is that is really hard to place the remaining 45 characters because there is so little results with them or/and that character is unpopular, the best thing I think it could be made for tier is something more general.

Meta:
Sheik
Zero Suit Samus
Rosalina
Diddy Kong
Mario
Fox
Captain Falcon
Pikachu
Ness
Sonic
Luigi

Wildcards(unordered): they have proved something at some point.
Ryu
Metaknight
Yoshi
ROB
Peach
DK
Pacman
Villager
Lucario
Wario
Pit/Dark Pit
Olimar
Bowser Jr.

Theorycally (unordered) Not so good placements at nationals or little representation.
Robin
Marth
Greninja
TLink
WFT
Ike
G&W
Mii brawler
... and many others

 

[Tri Knight]

Honestly, Ike's worst MU [in my opinion] is Shiek. In general, fast characters give Ike trouble, but the fact that Shiek has low lag moves hurts Ike a lot. All of Ike's smashes have more endlag than pretty much all of her moves combined, and the MU is just a mess in general.

While I'll agree that Sheik definitely has the advantage, Ike players rarely go for smash attacks so the MU shouldn't be based on his smash attacks. No MU should be based on smash attacks.

Also keep in mind that Ike's tilts have great kill power aside from down tilt. Forward tilt is very fast, has amazing reach for spacing and can kill at decent percents. Back air is godly for kills. Forward Air has great coverage and can kill great. He's got very good tools

But yes, Sheik has the advantage here easy.

 

[thegrovylekid]

As far as I recall, the current Melee tier list uses general placements. I don't feel like that works out so well with 55 characters, because there is at least one person who will argue with any given list, even to the top 10. Still, a Melee-esque tier list for Smash 4 would be an interesting concept.

 

[Nu~]

Being optimism about a character strengths is one thing, but flat out ignoring your weaknesses is doing nothing but hurting your own character lol. You can't even begin to compare Pac-man to the likes of Fox/Yoshi/Toon Link who all have guaranteed KO options.

Not sure where you're getting that from. I acknowledged his weak grab game, and then gave legitamate reasons to combat it. They aren't as good as just having a kill throw or 50/50 from a throw, but they do work if you insist on shield camping me.

Yoshi doesn't have very reliable kill setups...thought that @ Yikarur and @Sinister Slush covered this. Jab-> usmash isn't even guaranteed.

"Fox and toon link have guaranteed KO options"...okay? So do we. I thought the problem here was that those options lose to shield.

Want me to list just some of the guaranteed options we have to kill opponents that aren't in shield?
-Hydrant drop -> key
-Hydrant drop -> item tossed bell-> side B
-Fair -> bell/key
-DITCIT strawberry/cherry -> Bair near ledge/Blinky/Inky (essentially our own banana kill setup)
-DA -> bell toss -> side B/ Bair/Nair/Dair
-DITCIT upwards Bell -> Dtilt -> Inky


What I'm saying here is that shielding 24/7 isn't wise when A.) we have some kill options to cover it in the form of trampoline + projectile pressure and B.) being that liberal with your shield all match is asking for a shield break.

Abadango and Dee are very good players in their own right and know how to play Pacman and use his tricks to a extremely high level to get what they want. They're outliers and any run of the mill Pac-man is not going to perform at the same level.

Ah. The old, "they're the exception" argument. And right on cue.
Isn't the goal here to eventually get to their level and surpass them?
Damn right you should use his tricks to the extreme. That's what Pacman is all about; using your tricks, traps, and tools to overcome obstacles.

I honestly don't understand why this is even a debate, Pac-man has to work much harder than any other characer (maybe other than Duck Hunt?) to get his KOs, it's just how it is. There is no reason not to hold shield against Pac-man's wall. You aren't dying until 120+.

Not every character has to have an easy bake, brain dead way to end opponents at 80 in shield.
Ask the Pits, Yoshi, Fox, and villager.

Duck hunt is an extreme case where not even his smashes work correctly, non of his projectiles kill, and only uair kills reliably which he has no real setups into at kill %.

 

[Nobie]

Ryu has a very awkward neutral and a ridiculous punish game. You could see at Paragon LA that he wasn't really much for footsies and forward air is a lot of his neutral game, but one up tilt confirm and it's over.

aMSa isn't the only Greninja player, he was just already a big name. There's one named Lea who I don't know anything about, and one named Consome who got 5th at a tournament recently. But his representation in the West is pretty bad.

Neutral and footsies aren't just about how much you can rush someone down. If you think Ryu has an off neutral game or footsies then I'm not sure you fully understand either of those terms.

 

[thegrovylekid]

While I'll agree that Sheik definitely has the advantage, Ike players rarely go for smash attacks so the MU shouldn't be based on his smash attacks. No MU should be based on smash attacks.

Also keep in mind that Ike's tilts have great kill power aside from down tilt. Forward tilt is very fast, has amazing reach for spacing and can kill at decent percents. Back air is godly for kills. Forward Air has great coverage and can kill great. He's got very good tools

But yes, Sheik has the advantage here easy.

I understand, I main Ike [and Peach] but even then, I find the matchup difficult to deal with. You can't commit to anything Laggy unless it's a garunteed hit or you get grabbed. BAir is godly in this matchup, so is Jab, because they are fast enough to keep up with most of Shiek's moves and space well enough to give you some breathing room. FAir and Nair are the next best, and they're pretty unsafe, and if your opponent shields, that's a free grab.

Oh, and needles are annoying for Ike since they're faster than most of his attacks so he can't swat through them as easily as something like a fireball or a banana.

 

[Snackss]

Neutral and footsies aren't just about how much you can rush someone down. If you think Ryu has an off neutral game or footsies then I'm not sure you fully understand either of those terms.

He DOES have an off neutral game. He has very stiff movement and no way to hit people behind him. I'm not saying it's purely a negative, though it can be depending on how you try to play Ryu. He doesn't have a bad neutral game, but it's not a very elegant one either.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to play Sheik, Sheik is still really good.

Petition to make this the new Pledge of Allegiance

 

[Nu~]

The only Abadango match I could find was him vs. Dabuz. I also don't like moving players upwards on my lists because of just one player. If a Meta Knight-esque situation occurs where many people begin making waves with him, then I will move him up 10 places in a heartbeat.

Abadango
http://youtu.be/ope7uAHJ9nY
http://youtu.be/5txhFO_nQz4
http://youtu.be/tTP6-EFNixg


Dee
http://youtu.be/anmfWUyIjVE
http://youtu.be/ZIPyv7g-uWk
http://youtu.be/VJn6tCxu-qg

There are at least 10 more, but you get the point.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I'm a little lost on what is going on at the moment but what is with all the tier lists? btw Megaman isn't too much a good match up for peach if he can keep her out properly. A lot of stuff he does halts her approach options.

 

[Zage]

Want me to list just some of the guaranteed options we have to kill opponents that aren't in shield?
-Hydrant drop -> item tossed bell-> side B
-DITCIT strawberry/cherry -> Bair near ledge/Blinky/Inky (essentially our own banana kill setup)
-DITCIT upwards Bell -> Dtilt -> Inky

Feel free to show me real competitive play with any of this stuff working, as far as I know these are just theory crafted setups that have only been posted on the character boards, and never been put to use in tournament play. Why? Because they don't work against human players.

Yoshi doesn't have very reliable kill setups...thought that @ Yikarur and @Sinister Slush covered this. Jab-> usmash isn't even guaranteed.

"Fox and toon link have guaranteed KO options"...okay? So do we. I thought the problem here was that those options lose to shield.

Lol. Like I said, Yoshi/Fox and pretty much the majority of the cast have KO options out of basic concept reads. If Fox or Yoshi read an air dodge at KO percent. You're dead. If they read your spot dodge or roll. You're dead.

If Pac-man reads your airdodge, he has nothing to kill you with outside of Key, which can be grabbed, or a raw Side-b which is among one of the most telegraphed moves in the game.

Even on the ground Pac-man's smashes have below average KO strength for smash attacks. Please don't tell me this isn't true because BKB/KBG numbers do not lie.

You think Pac-man can KO just as well and just as early as anyone else. Where are the tournament matches of him consistently doing so? Every high level match I've seen has opponents living till 120+ on average.

Abadango
http://youtu.be/ope7uAHJ9nY
http://youtu.be/5txhFO_nQz4
http://youtu.be/tTP6-EFNixg


Dee
http://youtu.be/anmfWUyIjVE
http://youtu.be/ZIPyv7g-uWk
http://youtu.be/VJn6tCxu-qg

There are at least 10 more, but you get the point.

Ironically in all these videos. Opponents live to 120+ on average, sometimes even 140+. Lol...........

 

[Megamang]

Pac Mains, being completely honest, how much do you think you benefit from matchup inexperience? Basically, how many of your (admittedly strong) gimmicks go unpunished even though they are punishable?

Do you have an MUs that require a secondary?

 

[bc1910]

Greninja's results are on the rise everywhere except the US, including other Western areas like Europe. At this point, his results are actually good everywhere else (9th in huge French national, 5th in Umebura 19, 1st in fairly big Netherlands national).

Even in the US he's close to 20th in regional result rankings.

But I hope he continues to stay under the radar, especially in Japan and the US, because then there's just more chance of his grab getting fixed.

 

[Megamang]

Having a ****ty grab makes sense to me, since he is a ninja. Ninja's aren't about blocking **** with impunity, its about dodging, tricking and counterattacking.

Plus they gave him that really good dthrow, right? Does he have any guaranteed aerials out of that?

 

[wedl!!]

The MM mu doesn't matter that much considering that character basically doesn't exist anywhere.

 

[Nabbitnator]

The MM mu doesn't matter that much considering that character basically doesn't exist anywhere.

The match up still matters. There are always people who use x and y characters. When taking into account of possible poor match ups looking over them isn't the best idea.

 

[bc1910]

@ Megamang I suppose. Sheik has an excellent grab though. I guess she's technically a Sheikah (not even that). I don't honestly know how much they wanted an actual ninja motif with her, I feel like she was always the fast-but-weak counterpart to Zelda over anything else.

I guess Sheik is the bum rush in-your-face ninja with fast attacks (and a stupid projectile) and Greninja is the more tactical, stealthy ninja who goes ham when he gets an opening. They did quite well separating their playstyles.

Regardless, his crappy grab kind of makes sense but from a balance perspective there's no reason for it to be this slow.

His Dthrow still isn't that good, but it's better. He gets low percent combos and a 50/50 kill combo into Fair at high percents, but he gets nothing at mid or mid-high percents.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Why are there more than eight characters between Pit and Dark Pit?

Because Pit=Dark Pit. You don't always have to put both of their heads on aomething, just Pit's.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Neutral and footsies aren't just about how much you can rush someone down. If you think Ryu has an off neutral game or footsies then I'm not sure you fully understand either of those terms.

UGHHHGGHGHGHGHDGDF!!!!

Relax, champ ughgh.

They not ready yet mah dude.

 

[FullMoon]

Honestly the biggest buff Greninja could get right now is Up-Smash fully connecting when an opponent is on a platform. That by itself would make BF, Dreamland, Lylat and to a lesser extent Smashville a lot better for him.

 

[Nu~]

Feel free to show me real competitive play with any of this stuff working, as far as I know these are just theory crafted setups that have never been put to use in tournament play. Why? Because they don't work against human players.

I don't expect Abadango and Dee to use these setups considering they probably don't even know them. If we could share our tech with them, it would be great! But as for now, they live in Japan and discover their own tech.
But keep assuming that they can't work.

Guessing you haven't even tried them.

Lol. Like I said, Yoshi/Fox and pretty much the majority of the cast have KO options out of basic concept reads. If Fox or Yoshi read an air dodge at KO percent. You're dead. If they read your spot dodge or roll. You're dead. If Pac-man reads your airdodge, he has nothing to kill you with outside of Key, which can be grabbed. Even on the ground Pac-man's smashes have below average KO strength for smash attacks. Please don't tell me this isn't true because BKB/KBG numbers don't lie.

False. Air dodge and you can die to item tossed apple, melon, and bell into side B. And a Blinky/Inky that kills at 109 on average is weak? Okay...

The only weak one is down smash which is better for covering all get up options with a hydrant on the ledge anyway.

You seem to think Pac-man can KO just as well and just as early as anyone else. Where are the tournament matches of him consistently doing so? Every high level match I've seen has opponents living till 130+ on average.

Ironically in all these videos. Opponents live to 120+ on average, sometimes even 140+. Lol...........

Well let's bring it back to the first reply. We have options to kill early, our top level players just don't use all of them yet because they don't know them.

You can call me out all you want on the "Our top players aren't using the kill setups" but you can't say they don't work when you can literally just go to training mode with a partner and see that I'm correct.

Even if you know about them, you're in danger.

Pac Mains, being completely honest, how much do you think you benefit from matchup inexperience? Basically, how many of your (admittedly strong) gimmicks go unpunished even though they are punishable?

Do you have an MUs that require a secondary?

Depends. If you are referring to beatfox-esque tricks, then you're gonna get smacked around by anyone that knows the matchup but we do have guaranteed tricks. It's hard to measure because of how many we have. You gotta mix it up.


We have no unwinables, but noticeably unfavorable matchups include wario, lucario, and rosa. All winnable, just difficult. A campy Wario is considerably harder than the other two however.

Sheik is still in the air considering that our reps are doing fine against them at a high level.

 

[Zage]

I don't expect Abadango and Dee to use these setups considering they probably don't even know them. If we could share our tech with them, it would be great! But as for now, they live in Japan and discover their own tech.
But keep assuming that they can't work.

Guessing you haven't even tried them.

Lmao, That isn't how this works. You said that they work at high level play, and I challenged you and said they don't. It's your job to show me the proof, not the other way around.

If you can't show me because they flat out don't work like I originally thought, and as harsh as this is going to sound, at this point I truly believe you don't know what you're talking about. Until I see actual tournament play of you proving this, or other players proving this. I just don't have any reason to believe you.

I'll just leave this entire exchange at that.

And a Blinky/Inky that kills at 109 on average is weak? Okay...

Even on the ground Pac-man's smashes have below average KO strength for smash attacks. Please don't tell me this isn't true because BKB/KBG numbers do not lie.

:| . You can literally just go look up the numbers on Kurogane. Pac-man's Smash attacks are weak compared to nearly the entire cast. I'm also pretty sure the pacboards made a KO percent chart, with Fsmash/Usmash/Dsmash all kill at 109|133|141 from the center of FD on Mario, WITHOUT optimal DI and without rage.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

When someone does good in a tournament outside of America, does it affect the tier list here and in general for a character?

 

[bc1910]

Lylat will always suck for Greninja because the main platform's constant rocking means that shurikens are literally not functional.

Greninja's mobility, high short hop and Uthrow Uair stuff already make the other platform stages fun. Usmash connecting properly on platforms would be the icing on the cake, and should be fixed at some point, but it certainly shouldn't be prioritized over fixing his grab. A faster grab would greatly offset his biggest weakness (poor OoS game). Making Usmash connect properly would simply make him better at something he's already good at.

A faster grab would just have more utility in general.

 

[Jehtt]

If I'm not out of line by saying this, I think we should ban tier lists from being posted in this thread. The top tier characters are generally agreed upon, so posting full tier lists mostly just leads to a bunch of mid/low tier players coming to defend their character. It clogs up the thread.
I don't think there's anything wrong with starting a discussion like "I think Mario is better than Fox," but that doesn't require making a tier list to discuss. Just bring up the topic with some points defending your position.

 

[KakuCP9]

To be honest, I think Shaya covered that in the first page of the thread. A lot of people seem to gloss over it :\

 

[Ghostbone]

Does have any unwinnable MUs? seems to be on the doable side of bad, but I'm less sure about /.

Anecdotally Diddy seems really hard for her, dunno how it changes at top level though.

 

[Deathcarter]

People are trying way too hard on these tier lists. Lets be honest the meta at the moment is pretty much:

The Smash 4 Queen


The Smash 4 Aristocracy


The Royal Court


The guys guarding the gate


The Peasants


The invading general from the East


(Note: Character are listed in alphabetical order for each group)

Any arguing over hypothetical spots like whether or not Pikachu is top 5 or if Peach/Pit/Lucario/Ike are high tier is pretty much petty bickering among nobles/court jesters at this point. My list might be subject to debate but anyone who's been following the meta and this thread has a pretty good idea on what the general consensus is in terms of where the roster currently ranks in the meta.

 

[Zannabluke]

bowser jr is not a gatekeeper wtf

 

[Snackss]

Mega Man has been all over the place since this game came out.
"He's bottom tier!"
"He's not that bad."
"Mega Man is really good, high tier."
"Mega who? Whatever, put him in mid tier."