Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Radical Larry]

Ganon u-smash is not faster than Sheik f-tilt.

That is because Ganondorf's U-Smash, despite being interruptible, is always going to be slower than Sheik's F-Tilt because Sheik can interrupt her F-Tilt extremely quickly.

If you want an accurate testing of it, use Ganondorf's U-Smash full frames (no interruption) vs Ganondorf's U-Smash with interruptibility frames or Fox's U-Tilt full frames (no interruption) vs Ganondorf's U-Smash with interruptibility frames.

I promise I am telling you the truth, this is from literal personal experience with fighting as Ganondorf. If there's one thing I know about, it's that Ganondorf's U-Smash is interruptible at frame 23, that's in my experience from day one.

 

[David Viran]

Yea, but nairo wasn't going for the kick when he started the move. That's what I think he meant by the "didn't even try to get that" comment. Nairo was just trying to evade pressure and mvd screwed up the chase a little.

He was trying to throw out the kick but not exactly to hit but to edge cancel which I edited into my first comment and MVD decided to challenge it.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

LOL at that Dabuz MVD set. The level of movement, correct conscience decisions, successful hits, kill setups and landings that are required for Diddy to even have a chance against that character just standing there jabbing and using aerials to cover a myriad of options is seriously not cool.

I'd like to reiterate that Diddy loses to Rosalina, at least. We are having repeated examples of this at the top level.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Why auto footstool??? MVD screwed over. Sure he could have teched or recover with rockets, but that was heart wrenching. All the live for MVD.

 

[L9999]

http://oddshot.tv/shot/vgbootcamp-2015090723026782

The entire Smash 4 scene needed to take a moment of silence.

......(out of words).

 

[David Viran]

Why auto footstool??? MVD screwed over. Sure he could have teched or recover with rockets, but that was heart wrenching. All the live for MVD.

That was the kick not the auto footstool. I wish the footstool was that strong.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Kk. Still, MVD was so unlucky.

Wait a second why would you wish for something so silly to be on stairway to heaven character?

 

[wedl!!]

If anything, this is the tournament where people should realize Rosa and Diddy have anime plot-armor levels of nerf resistance.

This is also the tournament where pros should stop pretending that Peach and Ryu are bad.

 

[David Viran]

If anything, this is the tournament where people should realize Rosa and Diddy have anime plot-armor levels of nerf resistance.

This is also the tournament where pros should stop pretending that Peach and Ryu are bad.

Who thought peach and ryu were bad?

 

[Thinkaman]

That is because Ganondorf's U-Smash, despite being interruptible, is always going to be slower than Sheik's F-Tilt because Sheik can interrupt her F-Tilt extremely quickly.

If you want an accurate testing of it, use Ganondorf's U-Smash full frames (no interruption) vs Ganondorf's U-Smash with interruptibility frames or Fox's U-Tilt full frames (no interruption) vs Ganondorf's U-Smash with interruptibility frames.

I promise I am telling you the truth, this is from literal personal experience with fighting as Ganondorf. If there's one thing I know about, it's that Ganondorf's U-Smash is interruptible at frame 23, that's in my experience from day one.

There is no magical interrupt property of any basic move in Smash 4. FAF/IASA just refers to the frame the move allows the next input on; actual animation length is totally irrelevant to ground moves and AFAIK not even recorded anywhere.

Ness d-tilt is frame 15, the fastest move in the game.
Sheik jab 1 is frame 18.
Pikachu jab is frame 22.
Sheik f-tilt is frame 25.
Ganon jab is frame 35.
Ganon grab is frame 36.
Ganon d-tilt is frame 36.
Ganon f-tilt is frame 40.
Ganon u-smash is frame 43.
Ganon f-smash is frame 60.

Ganon u-smash is not faster than Ganon f-tilt.
Ganon u-smash is not faster than Ganon d-tilt.
Ganon u-smash is not faster than Ganon grab.
Ganon u-smash is not faster than Ganon jab.
Ganon u-smash is not faster than Sheik f-tilt.
Ganon u-smash is not one frame slower than Pikachu jab.

23 frames is around a third of a second, which is almost half the length of Ganon's u-smash.

 

[wedl!!]

ESAM thinks Ryu is bad. Zero thinks Peach is low tier (at least according to his unfinished 1.08 tier list).

Not sure about anyone else but that comes to mind.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

ESAM thinks Ryu is bad. Zero thinks Peach is low tier (at least according to his unfinished 1.08 tier list).

Not sure about anyone else but that comes to mind.

Didn't he put Peach in his top 5 underrated characters list?
I'm pretty sure the only reason he didn't put Peach in Mid tier is because her results were sparse at the time he made his video.

 

[Shaya]

My thoughts on ZSS' match ups right now, with consideration of how Nairo played despite his amazing punish game

-1: Ness, Sheik
Between -1 and 0: Diddy Kong, Fox, Pikachu, Mario
Between 0 and +1: MK, Olimar, Sonic, Peach
Advantage: Wario, ROB, Yoshi, Villager, Luigi, Rosalina, Ryu, DK, Pits, Falcon

I've had a sudden flip on the Olimar match up.
ZSS' effective range is just slightly longer than Olimars with dash attack/zair in mind. Camping/playing around mid-range for ZSS seems to be extremely effective as forward rolling in on fsmash/side-bs really breaks Oli's neutral (from what we saw in that set); and once Oli starts to feel pressured into needing to be safer on those two actions does ZSS find dash jump ins with well spaced nair/bairs with heavy pressured coming from them. Oli's recovery and disadvantage state are pretty one-sided against ZSS as well; people praise Oli's better recovery but it isn't that far gone from Duck Hunt's to be quite honest.

Nairo beat Shaky almost entirely out of kills/actions that you think no one else would get away with. Obviously ZSS' shield game is pretty borked and the reliability of boost kick out of shield/dash as a punish shined through here as well. But Shaky was keeping the games evenish/down to the wire the entire time getting half the hits Nairo did and killing usually twice as fast as Nairo did in reverse as well. What a silly character. It was fun to see a Ness main actually fear using up air liberally for once, god damn that obnoxious move.

Diddy played out in a similar way as Ness but with more consistent tools rather than overloaded ones. We could have very likely seen Nairo losing that set. There were quite a few missed conversions from both sides here. I think I would've liked to have seen MVD take that set and a double set grand finals; but if that had happened I wouldn't be surprised if nairo would go Pit, which would've sucked. Diddy juggles ZSS well, covers her bases (including mid range) fantastically, has forward air to beat everything.

 

[Locke 06]

Re:ganondorf usmash discussion.

I think Larry was talking about 23 frames of endlag (43-20f startup). Nope.

And they say communication save relations, I can tell.

Total animation vs IASA can be important in rare occasions where the action you want to take cannot interrupt the animation. For instance, monado art deactivation for Shulk does not interrupt moves like dtilt. I think walking/pivoting also do not interrupt moves (oh this looks like interrupting powershield shield drops).

Edit: also platform dropping.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Peach is in the same boat as greninja in my eyes.

Completely viable of you're willing to spend more time practicing than most and learn the character like the back of your hand.

I expect both characters to get more results as the game develops.

 

[Blobface]

-1: Ness, Sheik
Between -1 and 0: Diddy Kong, Fox, Pikachu, Mario
Between 0 and +1: MK, Olimar, Sonic, Peach
Advantage?: Wario, ROB, Yoshi, Villager, Luigi, Rosalina, Ryu, DK, Pits, Falcon

I am bothered.

Ganon's U-smash being interruptible Frame 23 would make it interruptible the frame the hitbox ends. Ganon's U-smash is fast but it's not that fast.

Also the way MVD bounced there was just plain weird. Do the games physics just not know how to deal with meteors bouncing off the stage?

 

[wedl!!]

Peach/Sammy is basically "I can't hit you but you can't hit me" because both of those characters have insanely dumb shield games

 

[Djent]

Top 8 predictions:

Spoiler

1) Nairo
2) ESAM
3) Mr-R
4) Ally
5) Dabuz
5) SlayerZ
7) DKwill
7) Larry Lurr

He chose...poorly:
1) Nairo
2) Dabuz
3) MVD
4) Ally
5) Mr-R
5) Shaky
7) 6WX
7) SlayerZ

I only included characters which were definitely used to win games. [Something about how secondaries are important.]
Ryu is on the rise-ingdragonpunch and it's hard for deny a case for his place in the top 20 (possibly higher, but time will tell).

 

[Wtfwasthat]

Were there any luigis in the top 32 or 64?

 

[Shaya]

Did Mr.R win any sets with Ryu usage?

 

[Djent]

@ Wtfwasthat None that I know of unless False, Dakpo, or Rich Brown used him.
@ Shaya To my knowledge, he only used him to win those 2 games vs. Ally.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Actually, FAF (First Active Frame) is and is not the same as an IASA (Interruptible As Soon As) frame. Ganondorf's IASA Frames start immediately after the hitbox on Frame 23, which is the peak of the kick itself and the end of the hitboxes. Anything after that can be interrupted into another attack (like F-Tilt). If you notice, there is no data in the listing that lists out the FULL frames of any of Ganondorf's attacks, and as such, one can assume that FAF means his full frames of his attacks, not his IASA frames.

If you still do not believe me, try using Ganondorf's U-Smash and then interrupt it at the peak of the hit, which is frame 23. The IASA frames start at frame 23, which is the last active hit of the hitboxes. It doesn't take almost a second to interrupt Ganondorf's U-Smash, whatsoever. 3 consecutive U-Smashes can be used within around a second if you IASA the last hitbox frame comes out.

So there is an attack of Ganondorf's that is fast comparable to other heavyweights, and it's also the reason Ganondorf's the only heavyweight able to combo into two U-Smashes. Because Bowser, D3, Samus, Charizard, Falcon, DK, Bowser Jr., Link and Yoshi do not have the same IASA frame advantage Ganondorf has, they sometimes will be unable to link into a second U-Smash in a true combo; although, they can link into U-Smashes if they can read opponents, but not in true combos most of the time. Somehow those characters cannot interrupt their U-Smashes very early, and often have to wait for their animations to finish, but Ganondorf on the other hand can literally do it AFTER the peak of his attack.

So in conclusion, Ganondorf's IASA is 23, not 42. (Go test it out yourself if you don't believe me)

Do you even know what you're saying. The FAF is 42.

FAF = IASA.

Stahp.

 

[Wtfwasthat]

@ Djent thanks! I turned on the stream late and didnt see the earlier matches

 

[FullMoon]

Peach is in the same boat as greninja in my eyes.

Completely viable of you're willing to spend more time practicing than most and learn the character like the back of your hand.

I expect both characters to get more results as the game develops.

NA hates Greninja apparently (basically the only really notable player that uses him is NinjaLink) so I'm not very hopeful on that front lol

 

[Thinkaman]

I think Larry was talking about 23 frames of endlag (43-20f startup).

Except Ganon U-smash hits on frames 21-24; the time between the hit is 19 frames. (Which is quite good!) 23 frames doesn't play into it, and Larry was very clearly claiming that you could "interrupt" the move as soon as the hitbox expired.

Total animation vs IASA can be important in rare occasions where the action you want to take cannot interrupt the animation. For instance, monado art deactivation for Shulk does not interrupt moves like dtilt. I think walking/pivoting also do not interrupt moves (oh this looks like interrupting powershield shield drops).

It's mostly a factor for aerials, since you can't drop through a platform until the animation ends. (Even if you can take actions)

 

[Pazx]

Oh he definitely has.

Just two things:
Only the first hit has an SDI multiplier, you need to expect it.

If you're caught by ZSS' up-b towards the centre of your body, you aren't going to fall out. Take note how many of nairo's up airs hit horizontally over vertically (which allowed jumps to reach vertical parity with opponent's easier) and how it was primarily used as an out of shield/dash punish (where one's ability to react to SDI the first hit is strained / all the character's momentum is falling into her which makes popping out even less likely).

Naw I'm not expecting him to fall out, he was just dying off the top more often than not. I'm sure he probably has seen the video or had the information passed onto him (he's played Nick Riddle enough) but I can't help but feel like his DI was far from optimal, it looked like he might have been holding in for at least a few of the times he died judging by his trajectory and that's only worth doing when caught at the ledge.

Since you're getting a notification for this post: what makes Ness worse than Diddy for ZSS, and do you have any thoughts about Nairo destroying Larry's fox?

 

[David Viran]

Naw I'm not expecting him to fall out, he was just dying off the top more often than not. I'm sure he probably has seen the video or had the information passed onto him (he's played Nick Riddle enough) but I can't help but feel like his DI was far from optimal, it looked like he might have been holding in for at least a few of the times he died judging by his trajectory and that's only worth doing when caught at the ledge.

Since you're getting a notification for this post: what makes Ness worse than Diddy for ZSS, and do you have any thoughts about Nairo destroying Larry's fox?

I think that MVD was focusing so much on DIing out of up b that when all the hits connected he just couldn't react in time to DI the last hit.

 

[Shaya]

Nairo didn't destroy Larry's Fox, Larry destroyed himself.
IMO.
He out played Nairo hard and choked for the first stock and couldn't bring it back. I'd say the reverse scenario is pretty commonly seen as well.

Because Diddy doesn't have a falling up air (or any aerial actually) that's safe on shield, does like 14% and can kill under 90%. Diddy's hitboxes aren't all big blobs that make Bowser's hurtbox look inadequate either.
He doesn't have the guaranteed kills from a grab (although if you mess up DI it sure is). He doesn't kill as early or in as many different ways as Ness does.

Who gets punished harder in the Ness vs ZSS match up? ZSS by far.
Who gets punished harder in the ZSS vs Diddy/almost every other character match up: the other character, a hyper majority of the time.

Either way I feel the way those two characters fight ZSS and come out on top (and what ZSS requires to come out on top) are similar.

 

[Radical Larry]

Do you even know what you're saying. The FAF is 42.

FAF = IASA.

Stahp.

No, I am not stopping on something that I know of for a fact since day 1. If you're spending the willing time on Ganondorf like I have, you should know that when the hitbox ends, that's where Ganondorf's interruptibility starts. Kurogane, you got your information incorrect about Ganondorf's U-Smash; the FAF is actually on Frame 23, not 42. Frame 42 is likely when the attack ends without interruption. Perform Ganondorf's U-Smash and interrupt it with F-Tilt if you don't believe me.

Except Ganon U-smash hits on frames 21-24; the time between the hit is 19 frames. (Which is quite good!) 23 frames doesn't play into it, and Larry was very clearly claiming that you could "interrupt" the move as soon as the hitbox expired.



It's mostly a factor for aerials, since you can't drop through a platform until the animation ends. (Even if you can take actions)

That's because you CAN interrupt the move once the hitbox (at the peak of the attack) expires. It's the only heavyweight U-Smash that is even remotely able to do this. You may not believe it, but just use Ganondorf's U-Smash and at the peak of the kick, use F-Tilt.

Trust me guys, I've done it multiple times on training mode, regular smash, etc. The result is always the same, it's interrupted as soon as Ganondorf's kick reaches its peak.

 

[Rikkhan]

Esam really dropped the ball this tourney, so far it looks like Nairo is far ahead of esam level. Also pikachu it's looking more like a 5th-8th best character rather than a 2nd-4th one.

 

[Shaya]

@ Radical Larry , you're naively thinking that just because his foot is out there protruding, that a hitbox is attached to it.

Stop before you hurt yourself / I won't ever take kindly to your "trolling" ever again. When you're arguing with objective frame data you're asking for me to wallop you.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

NA hates Greninja apparently (basically the only really notable player that uses him is NinjaLink) so I'm not very hopeful on that front lol

Perhaps I should say " I hope," instead of "I expect" lol.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Did Pink Fresh compete, and did he use Pit/Lucas if he did compete?

 

[Radical Larry]

@ Radical Larry , you're naively thinking that just because his foot is out there protruding, that a hitbox is attached to it.

Stop before you hurt yourself / I won't ever take kindly to your "trolling" ever again. When you're arguing with objective frame data you're asking for me to wallop you.

But there is a hitbox attached to it right as the foot comes to its peak; I've hit opponents plenty of times using Ganondorf's U-Smash as an anti-air, and the peak is where the opponent is going to get the highest knockback at on the foot, nowhere else. I know this because I've done it before, and I know when Ganondorf's hitbox ends, interruptibility comes to play.

I'm sorry, Shaya, but I stand firm on the fact that Ganondorf's U-Smash can be interrupted once the kick reaches the highest point.

EDIT: Heck, I'm uploading a video about it right now, though it may run in 30 FPS (because I'm doing it via the send to YouTube function; I could just send it to you), if you watch closely and keenly, you'll spot where the attack ends normally and where it will end through interruption.

 

[Apeirohaon]

But there is a hitbox attached to it right as the foot comes to its peak; I've hit opponents plenty of times using Ganondorf's U-Smash as an anti-air, and the peak is where the opponent is going to get the highest knockback at on the foot, nowhere else. I know this because I've done it before, and I know when Ganondorf's hitbox ends, interruptibility comes to play.

I'm sorry, Shaya, but I stand firm on the fact that Ganondorf's U-Smash can be interrupted once the kick reaches the highest point.

EDIT: Heck, I'm uploading a video about it right now, though it may run in 30 FPS (because I'm doing it via the send to YouTube function; I could just send it to you), if you watch closely and keenly, you'll spot where the attack ends normally and where it will end through interruption.

http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/dump/144/ganon

063 - ATTACKHI4 - BF7EF5B8
params: {1, 0, IASA?=42, 0, 0, 0}

the iasa/faf is 42.

 

[thegrovylekid]

Going to tentatively ask if I could put my tier list up for review here.

Also, a quick Peach Combo for you all:
On Dream Land 64, pull a turnip. From there, go onto the top platform, throw the turnip upwards, grab your opponent, Up throw, jump, up air, double jump, up B.

If the Up B connects, it's a stock.

 

[Shaya]

You better be counting frames for us because otherwise this may be the last time you find yourself derailing a thread with crap for a while to come. It's very rare I give people six chances before I actually just start annihilating them on the spot.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Diddy doesn't have a falling up air (or any aerial actually) that's safe on shield

Bair. I've seen ZeRo get away with ACBair so often is not even funny.

The rest I agree, Ness is far more dangerous than Diddy on virtually every scenario.
Diddy has a better control of the pacing/neutral, but Ness bypasses it with dumb aerials and an even dumber Bthrow.

 

[Kofu]

But there is a hitbox attached to it right as the foot comes to its peak; I've hit opponents plenty of times using Ganondorf's U-Smash as an anti-air, and the peak is where the opponent is going to get the highest knockback at on the foot, nowhere else. I know this because I've done it before, and I know when Ganondorf's hitbox ends, interruptibility comes to play.

I'm sorry, Shaya, but I stand firm on the fact that Ganondorf's U-Smash can be interrupted once the kick reaches the highest point.

EDIT: Heck, I'm uploading a video about it right now, though it may run in 30 FPS (because I'm doing it via the send to YouTube function; I could just send it to you), if you watch closely and keenly, you'll spot where the attack ends normally and where it will end through interruption.

Well, yeah, you can't interrupt it before it reaches the apex (obviously). But there are ~20 frames between when the hitbox disappears and when Ganon can act even though his foot is still up. His USmash is not interruptible at frame 23, that's the end of the story.

ANYWAY.

I wasn't able to watch the tournament. Were there any big upsets? ZeRo not being there sounds like it meant that the competition was much closer than usual.

 

[Radical Larry]

@ Shaya
@ Thinkaman
@ KuroganeHammer

I've literally interrupted the attack as soon as humanly possible by using U-Smash to F-Tilt, and I even show where the attack ends WITHOUT interrupibility (where the foot lands). Despite it being 30 FPS, if you have a pretty keen eye, you can see that yes, I was right about it interrupting at/after the peak of the attack.

And yes, I literally did 3 U-Smashes within or around an entire second near the beginning of the video.