VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[ShroudedOne]

=D

I was glad to see things being discussed again.

 

[MacD]

fix' d

LOOOOOOOOOOL

Note to self: starting arguments and insulting people is the best way to get this thread back on topic.

i'm a genius alan, what can i say

i never said it was useless, and i never said you thought it was the best option. i just said there was a better option most of the time. i jab sometimes out of fc aerial, but i dsmash far more often because it's guaranteed and it's very hard to punish. jab does not guarantee anything and many characters can punish it.

i can know how to play peach without being a top player. no reason to call me dumb when you can't even read my posts.

fox, puff, and sheik i know 100% can punish dsmash on a shield

pretty sure marth and falcon can too

i forget about falco, dittos, or ic's or any of the mid/low tiers

anyone who rolls/jumps and get's hit by the jab will most likely be punished because they weren't expecting it and you have a 7 frame move or grab or whatever to do to them

but it's k, you keep dsmashing and only beating baddies

i wasn't going to respond originally, but figured you should learn something

 

[john!]

fox, puff, and sheik i know 100% can punish dsmash on a shield

pretty sure marth and falcon can too

i forget about falco, dittos, or ic's or any of the mid/low tiers

how so? got numbers?

anyone who rolls/jumps and get's hit by the jab will most likely be punished because they weren't expecting it and you have a 7 frame move or grab or whatever to do to them

and anyone who shields the jab will punish you for it. also, i'm pretty sure fair to dsmash cannot be rolled out of if you do it right.

but it's k, you keep dsmashing and only beating baddies

i wasn't going to respond originally, but figured you should learn something

cali****. why do i waste my time with them?

have you learned geography yet?

 

[Veril]

i'm pretty sure fair to dsmash cannot be rolled out of if you do it right.

This is true.

What are you and MacD arguing about anyway?

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'm pretty sure I've seen Hbox roll out of shield after a fair Armada did, and thus he avoided the followup downsmash. But perhaps Armada wasn't doing it right (which seems wrong when I type it). And I'm referencing Apex 2010.

Feel like doing calculations on that, Veril?

EDIT: Sheik can Definitely wavedash out and grab, at least. I've seen that done a fair amount. Whereas, jab would counteract that.

 

[MacD]

how so? got numbers?

puff's always fair/bair me

sheik can wavedash out dmsash/grab

fox can short hop drill

and anyone who shields the jab will punish you for it. also, i'm pretty sure fair to dsmash cannot be rolled out of if you do it right.

refer back to alan's post about mixups

k thx bai

 

[Veril]

I'm pretty sure I've seen Hbox roll out of shield after a fair Armada did, and thus he avoided the followup downsmash. But perhaps Armada wasn't doing it right (which seems wrong when I type it). And I'm referencing Apex 2010.

Feel like doing calculations on that, Veril?

Sure. Its a rainy day and my friends are mia

 

[john!]

This is true.

What are you and MacD arguing about anyway?

he seems to think that i don't think jab is ever good. and he also doesn't think that dsmash ever breaks shields and that they will punish you for it 100% of the time.

like i said, waste of time.

 

[MacD]

and this is why i hate the peach boards

now the only people going to give you guys advice are alan if he's feeling nice, vanz if he ever logs on, doh i guess maybe sometimes and irish

good luck with that

laterz everybody

 

[ShroudedOne]

*sigh*

You guys...come on...

EDIT: Very well-made point, Alan. Sigged.

 

[Rosedemon]

Almost every competitive character can punish FC-> downsmash on their shield. Even some ****ty characters can do it.

They dont roll away from the downsmash, they simply smack you after you're done.

Sure, fc-->downsmash is a good option, but so is fc-->jab. Staying dedicated to either one makes you predictable.

Mccain got a little elitist, but what he said is true. In higher levels of play, if you're not mixing up your options, you're not going to beat anyone.

 

[DoH]

Large platforms like dreamland require wavelanding if they tech away. Also you can't djl on the top platforms of stages.

 

[Wake]

Yeah I'm pretty certain that it can be punished also... though I suppose a perfect, action replay type of FC would be different, but there's no use in talking about that.

MacD come back!!!

 

[john!]

Almost every competitive character can punish FC-> downsmash on their shield. Even some ****ty characters can do it.

They dont roll away from the downsmash, they simply smack you after you're done.

Sure, fc-->downsmash is a good option, but so is fc-->jab. Staying dedicated to either one makes you predictable.

Mccain got a little elitist, but what he said is true. In higher levels of play, if you're not mixing up your options, you're not going to beat anyone.

this is a lot more helpful.

so you're saying they can punish it every time? do they angle their shields? because sometimes my dsmash will shield stab.

 

[Wake]

I know Kirby's shield is good at blocking the dsmash... so annoying.

 

[Veril]

Shield stun is based on damage which in turn is related to staleness. Frame perfect float canceled fresh strong f/n/bair to perfectly timed d-smash works. There is no way to become invincible before the hitbox from dsmash connects. The timing allows a tiny margin of error depending on how good the roll is, since there are some character variations.

As the move becomes stale, which your aerials obviously will over the course of a match, the window for this to work shrinks and dsmash becomes escapible.

Dsmash can still be punished on shield, I'm just referring to the fc into dsmash.

Perfect fc fair is by no means impossible. People are just like lol AR cause of perfect fc nairs, which are pretty unrealistic.

Large platforms like dreamland require wavelanding if they tech away. Also you can't djl on the top platforms of stages.

I though you could on Yoshi's from a running full hop. Maybe I'm wrong

"checks"

 

[Rosedemon]

this is a lot more helpful.

so you're saying they can punish it every time? do they angle their shields? because sometimes my dsmash will shield stab.

You shield stab because of other random occurrences. Of course when they've been in their shield too long, or recently took another attack, then FC->downsmash becomes a more lucrative option, but on an even playing field, they can punish you.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

i think the peach boards are the hardest boards to give / recieve critique in. Mostly because we're all too argumentative and competitive, by which i mean subtly catty.

 

[crush]

i think the peach boards are the hardest boards to give / recieve critique in. Mostly because we're all too argumentative and competitive, by which i mean subtly catty.

Clearly you've never been in the Roy boards.

 

[baka4moé]

bleeeehhhccckkkkk

 

[Composeur]

i think the peach boards are the hardest boards to give / recieve critique in. Mostly because we're all too argumentative and competitive, by which i mean subtly catty.

Yes...subtly...

McCain, please continue to post advice here? I really appreciate it and I know many others do, too.

 

[KirbyKaze]

At least you guys are competitive.

Sheik board posters minus atma, Ministry, and maybe 2 others seem pretty content with mediocrity.



.

 

[Wake]

Yeah I like MacD's advice!

 

[choknater]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHbF325sE0Y&feature=related

rare footage of macd losing to the worst player in the world

 

[bladeofapollo]

how so? got numbers?

I think frame data may have been the worst thing to happen to Melee. Please don't stop posting, MacD; you're one of VERY few people in this thread who have real, high-level experience and associated match-up knowledge.

Also you can't djl on the top platforms of stages.

The exception is Battlefield; the top platform is close enough to the side ones where you can djl onto it. It's just tough because you're moving forward while you do it instead of just straight up.

 

[john!]

i think it's pretty reasonable to ask for frame data. that's what this game is based around.

also, macd won't stop posting here, guys. he won't be able to resist the urge to be elitist to other peach players who don't get to play in the best region in the world on a regular basis like he does.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think frame data may have been the worst thing to happen to Melee.

I love ignorant, uninformed comments!

 

[bladeofapollo]

I feel like frame data makes too many assumptions. Knowing what the numbers are is great, but then you have to assume both players are reacting with similar speed. In very few occasions does knowing what frame advantage a certain series has give either players any tactical or practical benefits.

 

[Veril]

I think frame data may have been the worst thing to happen to Melee.

Lol

The exception is Battlefield; the top platform is close enough to the side ones where you can djl onto it. It's just tough because you're moving forward while you do it instead of just straight up.

Actually, the only neutral where you can't djcland from the lower platform to the top one is Yoshi's. I meant to say that Yoshi's is the only one where that isn't possible, and instead said the opposite like a fool.

On Bf, dreamland, and fod its possible. Dreamland being the most difficult and least useful imo. Thought dreamland would be impossible but just did it soooo

 

[crush]

I think john! and johns may be the worst things to happen to melee.

 

[bladeofapollo]

Actually, the only neutral where you can't djcland from the lower platform to the top one is Yoshi's. I meant to say that Yoshi's is the only one where that isn't possible, and instead said the opposite like a fool.

On Bf, dreamland, and fod its possible. Dreamland being the most difficult and least useful imo. Thought dreamland would be impossible but just did it soooo

I'll have to take your word for it. I had not been able to do it on other stages recently and my melee is missing so I can't test it out. Also, DoH also mentioned "you can't djl on the top platforms of stages"--which in retrospect, I may have misunderstoodso I figured you two were on to something (with the exception of Battlefield, which I KNOW you can DJL onto)

 

[ShroudedOne]

Frame data gives us perspective. You cannot say that numbers shouldn't exist, simply because a few select people hang their entire lives on those numbers. Frame data is here to give us perspective, give us an idea of what things can work. It isn't here for us to live by or die by, and numbers certainly aren't the end game, especially considering the fact that HUMAN ERROR exists.

It's a very good thing frame data exists.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

I think john! and johns may be the worst things to happen to melee.

John! is actually a pretty cool thing that happened to melee
It does blow my mind how widespread the term "no johns" is, imagine an inside joke being told by people all throughout a community, most of which you've had no interaction with.

edit: frame data is obviously important, anyone that says otherwise need only consider players like mew2king and armada who use that knowledge to seriously impact their decisions. However, giving it too much weight leads to a seriously, err, for lack of a better word, bad player. We all know this, but somehow we end up in these arguments.
Even veril knows, we're not playing super theory brothers, and though it can help, knowledge of tech skill alone will probably never win you a game.
edit: shrouded ninja'd me :3

 

[crush]

John! is actually a pretty cool thing that happened to melee
It does blow my mind how widespread the term "no johns" is, imagine an inside joke being told by people all throughout a community, most of which you've had no interaction with.

i meant johns were bad, not no johns.:rainbowdash:

 

[The Irish Mafia]

Johns are not bad
see: arcnatural

 

[crush]

knowledge of tech skill alone will probably never win you a game.

WRONG!

i beat my little cousin once via camping the ledge with jigglypuff since i knew the numbers for the invincibility frames

 

[ShroudedOne]

@The Irish Mafia: I did ninja you. Sorry. :|

 

[crush]

Johns are not bad
see: arcnatural

i dont get it
that guy never johns (exccept that time i had a 4 stock lead on him in a marth ditto)

 

[KirbyKaze]

I feel like frame data makes too many assumptions. Knowing what the numbers are is great, but then you have to assume both players are reacting with similar speed. In very few occasions does knowing what frame advantage a certain series has give either players any tactical or practical benefits.

Aren't you a Peach player...? Like, I'm so baffled by this statement.

I can agree that people take frame data to such an extreme that it's detrimental and they do stupid things with it, like play super theory bros., but that's not frame data's fault. That's people being stupid with frame data and misusing it. Understanding the relative speeds to one another is only a good thing. Understanding what's "safe", what's "unsafe", and what's possible in this game at a mechanical level are only good things.

 

[Rosedemon]

i think it's pretty reasonable to ask for frame data. that's what this game is based around.

also, macd won't stop posting here, guys. he won't be able to resist the urge to be elitist to other peach players who don't get to play in the best region in the world on a regular basis like he does.

Its funny cuz Mccain said exactly what I said, and you still didnt listen.

What Mccain said still stands, it really must suck to get carried in YOUR region because everyone around you doesnt know how to play.

How unfortunate.