VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[Vaccine]

alright i main falco and 2 days ago i encountered a peach player that pretty much just dash attacked and cc down smashed. i feel like this should have been a lot easier for me cause i was able to make quick work of this guys with my sheik which btw is not all that good. in the future i dont want to have to pull out my sheik against every peach i come across, i would like to handle this matchup with my falco. so if you guys could give me any pro tips or anything that would help me in this matchup that would be awesome!

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yo I back throw all the time. Back throw *****.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yo again. To beat it with falco, its gonna take a little bit of a skill curve. Technically speaking, peach gets more output for her inputs. As a falco player, you are only going to get hit when you make a mistake, and she won't get any hits if you don't mess up. At least thats the mentality you should use when approaching a match-up like this.

Your bair beats out the dash attack or trades. To beat dmsash you have to shield or space, and don't jump into it at predictable times. TECHNICALLY speaking, falco's charged dsmash evades and then hits peach's dsmash, but most people consider it too high risk for the reward. Basically, laser her if shes on the ground and watch for the dash attack when you go to approach.

I'm not sure if you've came across this yet, but peach's aerials are really sick. If she floats above your laser range, things get sticky. For more stuff about this, you should post in the falco boards for help.

 

[bladeofapollo]

Is shield-dropping from a platform ever a useful escape? Against someone like Marth? I have issues figuring out how to get away when the dirty *******'s underneath me.

As KK said, her shield drop is really mediocre. However if you're stuck on a platform above Marth, just shield and buffer a jump. That'll get you out of tipper range real quick and he may even still be in Utilt ending lag so you can get away. Full-hop float is kinda nice in this case, you might get to the top platform (on Yoshi's)

 

[Vaccine]

Yo again. To beat it with falco, its gonna take a little bit of a skill curve. Technically speaking, peach gets more output for her inputs. As a falco player, you are only going to get hit when you make a mistake, and she won't get any hits if you don't mess up. At least thats the mentality you should use when approaching a match-up like this.

Your bair beats out the dash attack or trades. To beat dmsash you have to shield or space, and don't jump into it at predictable times. TECHNICALLY speaking, falco's charged dsmash evades and then hits peach's dsmash, but most people consider it too high risk for the reward. Basically, laser her if shes on the ground and watch for the dash attack when you go to approach.

I'm not sure if you've came across this yet, but peach's aerials are really sick. If she floats above your laser range, things get sticky. For more stuff about this, you should post in the falco boards for help.

thanks again for the info bro!
ill post in the falco boards about this in a couple days ive been asking a lot of ? there and i think that they might have gotten lil sick of me lol, and i got a while b4 i play that kid again anyway.

 

[john!]

Except her back-throw. It'd be cute if it really did something.

peach can back-throw me any timeeee

 

[baka4moé]

at HIV+:

if you didn't know yet, peach can't cc falco's dair->shine. at least i think.

 

[Composeur]

As KK said, her shield drop is really mediocre. However if you're stuck on a platform above Marth, just shield and buffer a jump. That'll get you out of tipper range real quick and he may even still be in Utilt ending lag so you can get away. Full-hop float is kinda nice in this case, you might get to the top platform (on Yoshi's)

Buffering the jump is a great idea. Thanks for that. Do you or anyone else know if there's a good way to do that into a float? Once again, the C-stick is useful but positioned in a problematic way. If it were efficiently possible to buffer jumps into floats, it seems like it'd be useful against Falco's lasers. The shield-stun is low, but I still get ****ed up trying to jump out of shield against them. I think it's because I either try it too early and end up sitting in shield or wait too long and get hit by another laser on the way up and end up on the ground again. I want to learn to power-shield them, but haven't had much luck yet. Advice, anyone?

Btw, anyone know if you can power-shield with a light shield?

 

[Beat!]

I don't think you can. I remember reading it somewhere.

Not sure, though.

 

[Zankoku]

You can't powershield with anything except the full-density shield. There's actually this really interesting "invisible shield" animation for if you were just a little bit too late to get the powershield and instead shielded at a position just before full.

 

[Rosedemon]

thanks again for the info bro!
ill post in the falco boards about this in a couple days ive been asking a lot of ? there and i think that they might have gotten lil sick of me lol, and i got a while b4 i play that kid again anyway.

It sounds as if you're mad that you lost to this peach.

Let it be known, Peach punishes Falco prolly the hardest (at lower skill levels) than any character in the game. Its not surprising that you won easily with Sheik as that match up is much easier to not suck **** at.

You cant really blame anyone from spamming dash attack and CC downsmashes (trolololDADSlolololol) except yourself for getting hit by them.

 

[ShroudedOne]

So this doesn't specifically pertain to Peach, but I suppose it can. It's common knowledge that you can dash attack cancel smash attacks. For example, when Fox runs at you, he can hold down really quickly to cancel his dash, and then upsmash.

The question I have is this: Why don't people dash cancel grabs, as opposed to jump canceling them? It seems to me that dash canceling grabs would be a lot easier in terms of input. It was just something I thought about while messing around, and there doesn't seem to be any downside to doing this. Thoughts?

 

[bladeofapollo]

Buffering the jump is a great idea. Thanks for that. Do you or anyone else know if there's a good way to do that into a float? Once again, the C-stick is useful but positioned in a problematic way. If it were efficiently possible to buffer jumps into floats, it seems like it'd be useful against Falco's lasers. The shield-stun is low, but I still get ****ed up trying to jump out of shield against them. I think it's because I either try it too early and end up sitting in shield or wait too long and get hit by another laser on the way up and end up on the ground again. I want to learn to power-shield them, but haven't had much luck yet. Advice, anyone?

Btw, anyone know if you can power-shield with a light shield?

If you power shield the laser you have plenty of time to full-hop, as Falco will be in hitstun. As for buffering full-hop floats, the easiest way is to hold up on the C-stick then hold down on the Left-analog-stick (does that have a nickname?) as you become airborne and then hold X/Y.

 

[MacD]

So this doesn't specifically pertain to Peach, but I suppose it can. It's common knowledge that you can dash attack cancel smash attacks. For example, when Fox runs at you, he can hold down really quickly to cancel his dash, and then upsmash.

The question I have is this: Why don't people dash cancel grabs, as opposed to jump canceling them? It seems to me that dash canceling grabs would be a lot easier in terms of input. It was just something I thought about while messing around, and there doesn't seem to be any downside to doing this. Thoughts?

it's slower and harder

i don't get how running then pushing jump/z at the same time is easier in terms of input than run > push down > either shield grab or wait for the animation of crouching to end so you grab which is a lot more complicated and pointless. if you can explain how it's easier then be my guest, but it doesn't seem like there is a way in which that becomes easier

and btw, it's not dash attack canceling, it's just dash canceling (which you see with running dsmash with peach)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Dash canceling is really good for stopping and tilting, commonly seen done by other characters like sheik

 

[baka4moé]

what are the advantages of a jc grab over a running grab? is it just bc it has less cooldown, or is range affected as well? also do you guys jc grab with the stick or x/y, and do you press them at the same time, or in fast succession like a wavedash, or what? ive yet to fluently utilize the jc grab and am trying to understand why its useful and the easiest way to input it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Im no peach expert but from my understanding, peach doesn't benefit from JC grabs as much as other characters do. In fact, i believe you are supposed to dash grab when chain grabbing fast fallers in order to catch them at the lower percents.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I JC grab when I'm so close I don't benefit from the extra range but will enjoy the reduced lag if I miss. I do standing grab (just Z, baby) if I'm doing pressure stuff like FC Nair > grab.

Otherwise I dash grab. Range matters. Chain grabs matter.

 

[baka4moé]

so peach's dash grab has more range than her standing grab?

lol i guess its a little comforting to know that jc grab isnt too useful for peach..

 

[Composeur]

Yes, I asked Cort this question years ago in his thread. Peach is one of the only characters aside from the grapplers who has a dash-grab with better range than a JC grab. The DG is necessary for chain-grabbing. Interesting point KK made about using the JC grab at close ranges for less lag if missed; I like it. I think a JC grab would be closer to instantaneous than a dash-cancelled grab because it takes time to cancel a dash. JC grabs are easy to practice and perform; I used to do them on accident all the time when I was trying to nair with Z from a dash (I gave up and just used A anyway because my right index finger was starting to hurt).

 

[Vaccine]

It sounds as if you're mad that you lost to this peach.

Let it be known, Peach punishes Falco prolly the hardest (at lower skill levels) than any character in the game. Its not surprising that you won easily with Sheik as that match up is much easier to not suck **** at.

You cant really blame anyone from spamming dash attack and CC downsmashes (trolololDADSlolololol) except yourself for getting hit by them.

i thought about the matches i had with this guy and i was able to figure a few things out that should help me out next time i play against him or any peach for that matter. i was doing a good job at not getting hit until i committed to an attack. for example he would dash attack and i would avoid it then i would go for a dair -> shine but i would overextended my dair and when i would go for the shine id miss and end up taking 30<% cause im holding down for my shine when i get hit with the down smash
i figure this kind of stuff just come with exp
btw i did not lose

 

[Rosedemon]

Kay.

dash grab is longer, and comes out at the same time as her regular grab, so i always dash grab cause i normally need the extra range and i figure, if i miss, i'm going to get punished either way

Just a snippet from Mccains earlier post about this same topic.

 

[MacD]

making my job easy alan

thanks!!!!!

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm not sure this is common knowledge but about 2 minutes ago I learned you can just hold down to automatically make Peach shut her umbrella when you Up+B. And therefore you don't have to time for the initial close for a parasol trap or simply to get her into her open-close animations for the autocancel if you're going to land a platform.

Neat!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Wow that is neat, did not know that.

 

[KirbyKaze]

You can combo FC Nair to Umbrella at low percents on survival DI.

I will use this somehow.

 

[Rosedemon]

OMG KK YOUR AVATAR!

I just had a nostalgiagasm.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Bullet Hammer!

 

[Wake]

Wow I didn't know about the umbrella thing either. Sounds pretty interesting.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I really want to land FC Nair > dash attack > dash attack > Parasol > parasol trap > grab > CG to 110 > u-throw Nair on FD

God where's peterx when you need him?

 

[thesage]

I actually did that once... except without cg I just d-smashed and it ***** things and I killed it.

 

[ShroudedOne]

it's slower and harder

i don't get how running then pushing jump/z at the same time is easier in terms of input than run > push down > either shield grab or wait for the animation of crouching to end so you grab which is a lot more complicated and pointless. if you can explain how it's easier then be my guest, but it doesn't seem like there is a way in which that becomes easier

and btw, it's not dash attack canceling, it's just dash canceling (which you see with running dsmash with peach)

Wait, are you saying that JC grabs are easier than dash canceled ones, or harder? I'm making the point that dash canceled ones are easier, and it sounds like you're saying they aren't, but your post confuses me a little.

But this is my rationale:
For JC grabs, you have to run, and push a jump button at the same time as Z, correct? In my mind, at least, I find that getting that jump button input (whether it be up on the control stick or X/Y) is difficult to do after running. Since the point of a JC grab is grab out of a run while retaining your standing grab (if it isn't, please feel free to correct me), I figure that you can just run, press down on the control stick, and then grab, with having to press a jump button, and then have the risk of jumping.

A dash cancelled grab gives you the same effect as a JC grab, but with easier input. And your right, it is dash cancelling, I don't know why I typed dash attack cancelling...

EDIT: After testing it out in Training mode, it seems that for quick grabs over short distances, JC grabbing works better than dash cancelling them. The input issue I was talking about doesn't really seem to make a difference after testing it out. As for longer distances, it doesn't really matter as much. So...guess I wasted all this time, then.

 

[MacD]

my main point was that JC grabs are quicker and easier which you seem to have figured out

to dash cancel, you crouch > have to wait till you stand up again > grab, ergo it is inefficient

also if you want to grab after the 1st jab (and other things i'm sure), if you push z too quickly, you'll jab again. if you JC the grab, you'll actually grab.

that is really just more of an fyi for people who like to fair > jab > grab or even just fair > grab, not sure if people noticed or realized what was happening. so yea, food for thought

 

[john!]

when i'm coming down from an fc move into a grab, and i don't jc the grab, sometimes i end up light-shielding instead, which is bad i always jc my grabs as peach, it's a good habit to have as a smasher and that extra grab range hardly even matters except for during chaingrabs.

 

[baka4moé]

woah what. so jc grabbing after a float cancel is not only possible but also always guarantees the grab? also can you buffer it?

ok i should start working on this pronto.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

No you can't buffer it hahaha that'd be too broken

The JC cancels any possible accidental shields that come up, so yeah it makes it guaranteed to come out (assuming you input it correctly)

 

[Composeur]

I didn't know that about JC grabs (circumventing entirely the possibility of an accidental second slap). That does make them really useful. Does that mean that you can actually get the grab off quicker than you otherwise could?

I have to disagree, though, that the regular dash-grab's extra range is only useful when chain-grabbing. It's better for chasing techs and punishing rolls, too, isn't it? And I find that many times when people get up from the ledge they just sit in their shield. Grab > instant F-throw seems to frequently surprise my opponents, though maybe there's an idiosyncrasy in my particular playstyle that allows it to catch them off-guard.

Does anyone have a successful formula for knowing when it's possible to nair out of opponents' combos? Not knowing if or when to mash A for nair or Y for double-jump vs trying to DI correctly instead is screwing me up a lot. I feel like I get comboed a lot when it's entirely escapable just because I don't know the right course of action, and while watching videos and experimenting helps, of course, it can also lead to some misconceptions if one doesn't know the reasons and necessary mechanics responsible for top-level players' good decisions.

I don't really know how to practice reacting to intense pressure without actually playing against a better player, but I get so overwhelmed when I AM against one because I feel like I don't even know the basics.

 

[MacD]

I didn't know that about JC grabs (circumventing entirely the possibility of an accidental second slap). That does make them really useful. Does that mean that you can actually get the grab off quicker than you otherwise could?

i personally think so, but i've never really experimented with it to know if it's true. but it makes sense that it the best/safest way to get the grab as fast as possible

I have to disagree, though, that the regular dash-grab's extra range is only useful when chain-grabbing. It's better for chasing techs and punishing rolls, too, isn't it? And I find that many times when people get up from the ledge they just sit in their shield. Grab > instant F-throw seems to frequently surprise my opponents, though maybe there's an idiosyncrasy in my particular playstyle that allows it to catch them off-guard.

extra range is always a good thing to me. maybe it's just a personal preference. so it seems like this is something people are just going to disagree on

Does anyone have a successful formula for knowing when it's possible to nair out of opponents' combos? Not knowing if or when to mash A for nair or Y for double-jump vs trying to DI correctly instead is screwing me up a lot. I feel like I get comboed a lot when it's entirely escapable just because I don't know the right course of action, and while watching videos and experimenting helps, of course, it can also lead to some misconceptions if one doesn't know the reasons and necessary mechanics responsible for top-level players' good decisions.

F(x) = hitstun where x = your percentage, and F is the function of the move you were hit with when it comes to hitstun. though i'm sure it can get a lot more complicated than that.

really it'll just take practice and you'll learn timings and how long you should be in hitstun for, and based off their position your best course of action to follow up

I don't really know how to practice reacting to intense pressure without actually playing against a better player, but I get so overwhelmed when I AM against one because I feel like I don't even know the basics.

i can't really think of anything besides playing good people. you have to learn how to deal with things like that in the moment

kinda like your first few tourney matches, i'm sure you were nervous and got scared and messed up but eventually overcame it. sorta the same thing i think

 

[Wake]

So, Peach can become pretty vulnerably when she has a turnip in her hand while she's shielding. I was messing around with something in training mode. Since nairing oos while holding a tunrip doesn't work, I've been dropping turnips oos. I was wondering if this has ever been tried against any sort of shield pressure in a situation as specific as being stuck with a turnip while shielding shield pressure... I think it's funny, at least... or maybe just dumb because this position perhaps shouldn't even have been gotten into haha but whatever.

 

[Rosedemon]

Just throw the turnip OoS.

Of course this is a subjective solution. If they're in front of you, a normal throw OoS should work (and by work I mean it gets the turnip out of your hand). I've seen Armada jump and throw the turnip down when being pressured. You can also Up-B OoS to get them away from you, and then get rid of the turnip.

If all else fails, just roll away like 10 times (trololololol).