VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[bladeofapollo]

Armada dash attacks a lot. It's kinda funny, 'cause we're always imagining "better options" but sometimes, it's just forward and the big green button.

Also no, they're not fast enough. I think you have to FC Fair someone's shield perfectly to have the best advantage. Even then, it just means you grab before they do; I think rolling away always beats Peach's shield pressure (until you run out of stage, of course)

 

[Zankoku]

I think Peach's jump is "airborne on frame 6", making an instant nair frame 9. Incidentally, though, groundfloating makes stringing nairs with Peach the fastest possible out of the entire cast.

 

[MacD]

someone (vanz) needs to add this to the first post since people keep asking

FC nair frame perfect is unable to be shield grabbed, though buffering a roll is safe

fair > jab will beat any spot dodge/roll/jump/shield grab, as in you will hit them in the few frames of vulnerability they have, i forget about the rest off the top of my head but i think everything else can be you be besides jab can be buffered out of

granted jab hits their shield, it is "easy" to punish, at least in theory is very easy to punish but yea

also i'm going to watch that armada match now, maybe i'll see what you mean but i'll edit this after i watch it if no one else has posted

idk what to say, he's just super technically proficient, knows how to bait based off his spacing, and then punish really hard. idk what kind of analysis you are looking for but you should know by now i'm not the one to ask for them

 

[Cia]

Armada dash attacks a lot. It's kinda funny, 'cause we're always imagining "better options" but sometimes, it's just forward and the big green button.

The difference is he dash attacks to catch opponents as they're falling back to the stage, or after a whiffed attack. Not while the Fox is standing in the neutral position waiting for Usmash OOS.. lol. Dash attack is one of Peach's best combo set ups, but it's super punishable.

I know that Apollo is well aware of all that I said in this post, but I just wanted to clarify because I do want other players to think it's ok to just recklessly spam dash attack. Positioning and timing is EVERYTHNG.

 

[Wake]

Oh my god wut. I can't even comprehend what he's doing. Somebody (good) analyze it.

Macd?Vanz?DoH? One of you do it.

Edit: or KK, I forgot about him

Did you notice Armada moonwalking at 4:21? Wow haha I wanna do that.

 

[MacD]

I know that Apollo is well aware of all that I said in this post, but I just wanted to clarify because I do want other players to think it's ok to just recklessly spam dash attack. Positioning and timing is EVERYTHNG.

but... but...



i just wanna DADS

 

[KirbyKaze]

Oh my god wut. I can't even comprehend what he's doing. Somebody (good) analyze it.

Macd?Vanz?DoH? One of you do it.

Edit: or KK, I forgot about him

I mean, I can tell you what he's doing but it's mostly just him ****** the other guy...

Game 1 he's just preventing Falco from stabilizing with lasers and ground game. Mostly by powershielding a bunch of lasers and keeping a good distance that he can attack from, or threaten to attack from. He's also using a bunch of frame traps that Falco keeps trying to punish or falling into.

He also lands a bunch of really high damage combos because he's Armada and that's what he does...

Falco fails a few key combos and gets Naired for them. Doesn't get chances to safely kill him after those. Eventually just starts spamming kill moves and gets one to hit. Some questionable recovery choices and movement choices run him into Armada's spaced Fairs or Nairs and whatever.

Game 2 is mostly Armada flaunting his WD back D-tilt spacing and his ability to always be outside Sheik's shield grab range (or, on the off chance he's in range, his ability to be non-committed in that range so he's free to d-smash or whatever). Sheik keeps jumping onto platforms and gets hit by Peach aerials. A lot of scare tactics to get f-throws. A bunch of frame traps are also thrown around.

Turnip throw down --> FF --> float Nair is cute. He covers a bunch of options when Sheik tries to escape the combos.

Game 3 is a lot like game 2 only he plays more fluid and with less commitment. He doesn't float Fair much, mostly just moves around Marth, and hits Marth whenever. He punishes Marth a lot for committing to side-B or whatever when he's coming down and he Nairs OOS on everything one could possibly Nair OOS on.

He gets under Marth and ***** him from there. He does a few 2-hit aerial > aerial combos (like weak Nair > strong Nair) when he can.



Not much to really look into for those matches. He's a lot better than his opponent and he ***** him. Keeps them from getting a stable position, mostly by making them explode when he touches them, or by having a good position at all times, or by avoiding commitment when he's close.

Armada so good

 

[baka4moé]

KirbyKaze could you please explain what a frame trap is? like perhaps even a couple examples from the vid?

even if theres not much to look into, having what u wrote as a reference for when watching the vid again really helps, so thanks!

 

[KirbyKaze]

i googled a definition

idk if this is an official one or w/e but it seemed fine

"A frame trap is a sequence of moves where the first move's frame advantage (or disadvantage) plus the startup frames (not counting the first active frame) for the follow-up move creates a window (the frame trap) where the opponent, even if they perform a move to react, will be stuffed (or even counterhit) because the active frames of their move will not come out before the active frames of the second move of the frame trap."

in those videos he d-tilts falco and falco will roll, then before the roll ends he d-smashes; stuff like that. they try to counter your action but you're at advantage so you get to punish them because of awesome.

another would be how he f-smashes falco's shield and then jabs when falco tries to work oos and hit him.

stuff like that.

 

[Wake]

Cmon KirbyKaze, you gotta talk about his moonwalk to the ledge in the second game! Moonwalking so so cool looking hahaha

 

[DoH]

She's not airborne til frame 6 though iirc

He's just getting faster and better at getting the first hit and keeping them in his death combos.

I would like to know how he keeps up his pace. Lots of times I catch myself just not fastfalling because I don't have to

 

[KirbyKaze]

Cmon KirbyKaze, you gotta talk about his moonwalk to the ledge in the second game! Moonwalking so so cool looking hahaha

I saw Cort do that in 07 so I was not impressed by it.

 

[Wake]

I saw Cort do that in 07 so I was not impressed by it.

booo I guess being a baby smasher, I'm still impressed by a lot of stuff that I haven't seen before haha

 

[KirbyKaze]

I mean, I'm not as old as DoH, but I'm old enough to know that moonwalk edgehogs aren't new.

Also, Vwins has a bunch of matches vs Chocolate RaynEX from a tournament last weekend or something. Might be fun to check out. Maybe. I dunno. His style is unyieldingly annoying (VaNz knows what I'm talking about ^_~) and he seems determined to make every match take 4+ minutes but he's still pretty solid and stuff. Got that FC Nairplane, yo.

 

[Wake]

I mean, I'm not as old as DoH, but I'm old enough to know that moonwalk edgehogs aren't new.

Also, Vwins has a bunch of matches vs Chocolate RaynEX from a tournament last weekend or something. Might be fun to check out. Maybe. I dunno. His style is unyieldingly annoying (VaNz knows what I'm talking about ^_~) and he seems determined to make every match take 4+ minutes but he's still pretty solid and stuff. Got that FC Nairplane, yo.

Yeah, I guess I've only seen Falcons use moonwalking so far, but this makes me want to try and do it with Peach. I've only seen a really old match of Vwins playing Hbox in a crew battle... oh and when he played Armada in a crew battle too.

 

[Zankoku]

Moonwalking with Peach is hilarious, but not particularly useful.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Vwins is the business

You guys don't even know ^_~

 

[Rosedemon]

I wish KK's brain was for sale.

I'd buy it.

 

[john!]

booo I guess being a baby smasher, I'm still impressed by a lot of stuff that I haven't seen before haha

i think that's the first time i've seen it too. i laughed when he did it.

 

[Wake]

i think that's the first time i've ssen it too. i laughed when he did it.

Yeah I laughed too

 

[bladeofapollo]

He... knows how to bait based off his spacing, and then punish really hard.

Positioning and timing is EVERYTHNG.

Basically these two statements sum up our character, btw.



Also Vwins is freakin' great when he actually gets around to playing. I watched an old set of him and Jman at least 3 times a while back to see how he reacted to certain situations.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I wish KK's brain was for sale.

I'd buy it.

With all the horrible substance abuse my brain has endured in recent months, I'm not sure that's a wise investment ^_~

 

[Rosedemon]

 

[Cia]

r0sedem0n (8:58:50 PM): exactly
r0sedem0n (8:59:00 PM): thats the first thing people should learn
r0sedem0n (8:59:07 PM): and then read the damn matchups on the front page
r0sedem0n (8:59:13 PM): it kinda tells ou everything you need to know
r0sedem0n (8:59:20 PM): unlss you're losing to like yoshi
r0sedem0n (8:59:27 PM): then you prolly have other issues

LOL!

I suppose I could add Yoshi to the OP. But everything would just be theory for that MU..

I mean I literally just stand on a platform. wait for him to jump at me. and then I Dsmash.. lol

 

[Teczer0]

Moonwalking with Peach is hilarious, but not particularly useful.

You take that back!

 

[Rosedemon]

LOL!

I suppose I could add Yoshi to the OP. But everything would just be theory for that MU..

I mean I literally just stand on a platform. wait for him to jump at me. and then I Dsmash.. lol

Yep, you should add that exact line.

 

[Zankoku]

You take that back!

The Peach Bomber is clearly more useful for winning games :D

 

[Wake]

For matchups I don't know... I usually just end of fairing them to death haha

 

[Composeur]

I posted this in Cort's forum like last week but no one's answered so I'm just gonna repost here:

Technical questions:

Dashing off a platform toward the middle > nair into the ground on a stage like BF, YS, or DL, is it generally more effective to fastfall before nairing or vice versa?

Is shield-dropping from a platform ever a useful escape? Against someone like Marth? I have issues figuring out how to get away when the dirty *******'s underneath me.

I had another question but I can't remember it.

edit: oh yeah, does peach's short-hop bair even need to be L-cancelled? It seems like there's no landing lag from it, but I just want to be sure. And yes, I'm aware that float-cancelled bairs would often be preferable to shffled ones.


Also, vwins IS the business. Guy's really smart and I was excited to see those matches the other day, even though his Peach isn't quite as ship-shape as it has been historically. lol @ KK's substance abuse. Xanax is great for smash. Helps keep the edge of frustration off.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I wasn't even aware that Peach had a moonwalk...for some reason, it reminds me of the way she walks in Paper Mario. Specifically, the Thousand Year Door one...

 

[Beat!]

All chars have a moonwalk. Some of them just need to walk in the other direction first, to gain momentum.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I posted this in Cort's forum like last week but no one's answered so I'm just gonna repost here:

Technical questions:

Dashing off a platform toward the middle > nair into the ground on a stage like BF, YS, or DL, is it generally more effective to fastfall before nairing or vice versa?

Situation dependent. Generally I think Nairing first is correct but sometimes you need that low Nair if you're gonna hit their shield or something.

Is shield-dropping from a platform ever a useful escape? Against someone like Marth? I have issues figuring out how to get away when the dirty *******'s underneath me.

Because you're Peach you have a cheaty shield drop in that you can float > FF to drop through platforms (float drop? lololol). It's a good escape from a lot of stuff but I'm not sure how good against Marth because you hang around in the air for a while and I'm not sure his U-tilt is that laggy. That said, yeah, shield drop and its ilk are pretty good.

edit: oh yeah, does peach's short-hop bair even need to be L-cancelled? It seems like there's no landing lag from it, but I just want to be sure. And yes, I'm aware that float-cancelled bairs would often be preferable to shffled ones.

Depends on how you do the Bair. For instance: SH rising Bair with no FF, definitely not. SH rising Bair with FF, probably not but I'm not 100% sure. If you do it later in the jump with no FF, probably not, but it depends on how late. If you do it later with a FF, yes.

It's all very intuitive... if your move gets past the autocancel window (or ends) then you don't need to L-cancel. If you don't, you need to L-cancel. Unless you float it, but that's cheating.

Also, vwins IS the business. Guy's really smart and I was excited to see those matches the other day, even though his Peach isn't quite as ship-shape as it has been historically. lol @ KK's substance abuse. Xanax is great for smash. Helps keep the edge of frustration off.

Yeah you guys should do what he does vs Sheik. He pulls a bomb when I'm offstage and then hits me with it when I poof onstage. It's really good.

 

[Teczer0]

The Peach Bomber is clearly more useful for winning games :D

This is only true because the peach bomber is a projectile.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Peach Bomber is actually her highest KB move at low percent and does the most damage for a single hit. For this reason, I want to B-throw someone who lags onstage, get up, D-tilt > reverse Peach Bomber to attempt an edgeguard loop.

For less ridiculous ideas, I'm finding a lot of success with Parasol today for combo extensions and hitting Fox when he's jumping around above me.

 

[DoH]

Shakecane.gif

 

[Rosedemon]

Oh I get it, its cuz he called you old.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Mario is a really weird matchup.

I played with Unknown for a while in it.

It seems running away from him and down smashing when he tries to Nair approach is really good, though. And beating his moves with your moves because you're cool like that.

His U-smash is really annoying though.

More general: I'm also finding a lot of success with u-throwing characters that have less air priority and then throwing Uairs or Nairs in their general direction. Marth style. Only with more knockback and less effectiveness because Peach doesn't have a sword. But I also think her throw stuns for longer so sometimes it actually seems to combo, which is weird.

I know Vwins u-throw > dash attacks me a lot if I DI to the side (when I'm Sheik) and it sometimes clips my jump. I wish I had some frame data or something for Peach's u-throw because it seems like a good idea, given how it almost combos sometimes and Peach has enough priority to just work through people other times in spite of their combo escape efforts.

 

[Rosedemon]

Mario is Doc who cant kill, and his projectile game blows.

And I love when I just get them stuck in their shields and I can nair all day.

Mario makes me feel good cuz my character is better.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I find myself grabbing Mario a lot. I think that may be my Sheik instincts telling me to grab blocking things. But it seems reasonable enough; Peach has cute throws.

 

[Composeur]

Except her back-throw. It'd be cute if it really did something.

Thanks for the response, KK. It was exactly what I'd been hoping for ^^