Tournament rules for edge camping (Serious discussion)

[Metal Reeper]

^ lol nice post.
I get what your saying but what if that person ALWAYS is invincible?

I guess you could just grab the ledge? but even then it's a disadvantage cause your going for the bait, which is there goal, and why did you go over there in the first place? Cause they have a lead and you want the lead. There is an obvious thing to do to get the ledge....but even then your still at the ledge. And what do you do when you get the ledge? stall? lol.

I guess nothing will come from this thread and I hope everyone has a fun time playing M2K at pound 5 <3

 

[Zodiac]

its been clearly pointed out that its an annoying tactic and a counter needs to be found/ made known. the thread seems to be over

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

whens the last time m2k won a national?

oh wait....


this is a non-issue at this point

 

[Nihonjin]

All those things you said are CHARACTER balance changes that aren't possible to fix via the rule set short of banning the character outright so its not comparable.

Running away as Fox is a tactic, just like camping at the edge with Sheik is a tactic. How are they not comparable?

Banning the character outright isn't a viable option

Nice strawman.

Those matches weren't suppose to display this tactic being used in a ban worthy way. You were just supposed to see how m2k does that a lot and is moving more towards using that as much as he needs to win

I didn't see that either.

There is no manual for how a fighting game should be but anyone who is interested in competing as fairly as possible in this particular fighting game should see how that game mechanic shouldn't exist.

I don't even know what you're talking about really..? Characters should never hold a significant advantage over certain characters on certain parts of the stage?

Imagine if for backing into the corner in street fighter gave you invc frames and a 90% advantage somehow.

That would indeed suck, but it's no where near true for Sheik on the ledge.

Or imagine a fox player who can consistently stall and abuse ledge invc on the ledge which gives him a 75% chance of sucess in the mixup game when some one comes near him on the ledge consistently and he gets one laser off on the opponent and does this for 7 minutes. He wins. That would be SO BORING.

And humanly impossible to do consistently. (Whether you're successful also depends on what character you're playing against)

In fact i'm going to try and do this at pound 4 now just to prove how broken this tactic could become since no one seems to think this could become an issue in the future.

Good luck.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Unjustified ideals about how this game should be are rising their ugly heads all over this topic.


There is currently no problem with edge-camping. I don't believe there ever will be. If the game does come to a point where it is a serious problem (what constitutes a serious problem is another matter entirely, but I won't go into that here), we will attempt to fix it in accordance with what we know about it, which is something we can't reasonably be expected to do at the present.

 

[Shelter From The Storm]

Lol
You are fox.

Why no thread for this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI_hGcWjTKA

Oh that's right, because both players played 'gay'.

It's alright for fox, the best character in the game, to abuse what he has (lasers) by running around and camping, but as soon as someone takes advantage of the one thing fox has weak about him (ability to be gimped/edgeguarded) it's a problem?

Let's have a projectile rule, fox can't shoot more than 200 lasers
Problem?

Done.

Eggm, you lost. Find a strategy around Sheik's edge camping and develop it.

A Fox of your caliber should really not have a problem accomplishing this. Play to win.

 

[kupo15]

What happens then in an elimination bracket where the final match of the set ends up timing out? Do they both lose? If so, you mess up the bracket by having someone getting a random bye in the winners bracket, that they haven't earned in any way. And in double eliminations, you could end up with an extra person in losers, and you've just made the whole set up unnecessarily complicated.

If they replay the last match, the solution isn't any better than no time limit, it can still go on infinitely.

So what happens in a double loss scenario in tournament?

You know what, that is a very good question. I have no idea what would happen if this occurred in the GFs

What happens when you win the first match and stall the rest of the set?

Well I was thinking it was more like if you stall out any 1 match out of the 3 you both are placed in losers bracket...hence why I said severe punishment. But at least this way there would be no extreme camping haha

6666 posts

So.... what would happen if they both lose?

they both go to losers bracket? I don't think I fully understand how it would work

Yes you are correct. They both go to losers bracket. And if it happens again in losers, they are both out of the tournament.

I have never seen a match end because of time unless the person was stalling.

Have you?

That rule would make lowe tiers Aloooooot more aggressive...which is bad...

No I haven't but that's exactly the point. If you are down and going against someone who is camping because they are ahead, currently they could stall out the match and win. Because of this, you usually see the person behind take a big risk to stop them from stalling and winning on time. If there were no time limit, then theoretically the game could never end if both players are stubborn enough not to change the situation. But if you have a timer and both players lose if the time runs out, then the more you stall, the closer you get to losing.

Anyway I won't push it, I was just interested in presenting this idea I had. I think it could possible benefit individual matches but how it effects brackets and the tourney as a whole might be a different story.

And how would making the lower tiers more aggressive be a bad thing anyway lol

 

[Moxin]

I honestly cannot believe this thread is happening.

 

[LatexRhombus]

it's pretty much not happening...almost no1 supports banning "gay" playstyles...if people did, the whole concept would set a dangerous precedent as far as the future of the metagame is concerned

 

[Teczer0]

Tim next time I play you I"ll blindly edgecamp

Then give you ideas how to **** me.

Then we can all move on.

Really its a powerful tactic buts its comparable to fox platform camping ICz or peach. Its probably frustrating but people have found ways to get around it and you can too man.

 

[Moxin]

^

This thread should be titled "Need help vs sheik ledgestall". Would have been ten times more productive.

 

[Zodiac]

it's pretty much not happening...almost no1 supports banning "gay" playstyles...if people did, the whole concept would set a dangerous precedent as far as the future of the metagame is concerned

if we did, I would just flat out ban jigg's, marth, falco and sheik. Probably gimpy fish's bowser too.

 

[stingers]

lol melee players are such scrubs. smh

 

[~Twitch~]

no stingers it's just eggm.

 

[DJRome]

i see nothing wrong.

melee isn't a game about fairness. it is a game of existence.

everything about the characters and their strategies are just that. they simply exist. deal with it

 

[AlcyoNite]

Im like legit frustrated that when a sheik main starts solidly beating foxes all of a sudden her strat is op

I really hate spacie mains

 

[Brightside6382]

So why was wobbling banned again?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Look, if the game becomes over-centralized around this tactic, ban it. Otherwise, don't. It doesn't even require discussion at the moment :/

@Bright: Wobbling was banned by idiots, for idiots.

 

[Pi]

So why was wobbling banned again?

cause **** that ****
that's why

 

[Xyzz]

Wobbling is banned in some tourneys because - provided flawless execution, that has been proven to be achievable by humans) - it's an inescable 30ish% to death grab. On the one hand wobbling doesn't make ICs the ssbm meta knight and doesn't really change the matchups against them that much since even without wobbling the stuff ICs can do from a grab is fairly unhealthy for the grabbed player anyways, but on the other hand there's nothing a human (or even a frame perfect player) can do against it, so quite a few TOs ban it.
Poof "mini-stall" is not banned because even with perfect execution there's a vulnerability window (I think Amsah mentioned .5 seconds). The difference to wobbling should be pretty obvious: you can't break the wobble even if you could do all the stuff in the perfect control videos. The shino stall has been proven to be interruptible by players.

If the risk vs reward situation is fair can't be answered by simply looking at percentages. To me it appears the only fair way is to look at the current meta game and see whether it's a viable tactic for shiek to shino stall after a lead till time runs out, and the only match where this has been used to some degree - as far as I know - was the Amsah vs Jman match (and even there time didn't run out, Amsah only forced jman to stop the laser camping), but if I look at other Amsah matches, he seems to be pretty reluctant to continue the stall if the other player approaches the ledge, so probably there isn't a problem right now.

The only reasons to ban a tactic in a game are (loosely based on a Sirlin article)
- the tactic has been proven to win games / tournaments
- the meta game is more deep / enjoyable without it

shino stall has never won games for a player so far, and it's not like banning it would improve the current meta game.

To me the far more interesting thing to do in this thread would be discussing a way to break the stall ingame, not with arbitrary rules outside of the game (avoiding all unneeded rules is a pretty good way to run things to me, especially in cases like here where it's probably nigh impossible to put a hard ruling in place anyways.)
For my main hitting shiek out of it is far too easy to discuss actually... throw turnips / if nearby a downsmash might work fine, too :x )
Would shielding next to the edge > wavedash oos towards shiek during the vulnerable window > shine spike work for fox? (techskill is the answer to everything as fox, right? (: )

If every character (or at least the top tiers, since nobody (replace with "only axe") plays something else anyways ) has a viable answer to the stall, there's not much of a problem. And even if the answer isn't that strong and approaching shiek on the edge is giving her a slight advantage ... well... matchups aren't balanced to the 50 - 50 point for equal players before this, they won't be afterwards, and if shiek steps up some places in the tier list till a better answer is found, there's no problem to me (at least it ain't jiggly puff :D )

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The only reasons to ban a tactic in a game are (loosely based on a Sirlin article)
- the meta game is more deep / enjoyable without it

To elaborate on this, that doesn't mean you can go around banning everything you don't find fun. Otherwise it would lead to us having a rule-book of every thing we can do to make the game more enjoyable.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

this thread is now diamonds

 

[King Funk]

The extreme paranoia to defensive play by some people makes me facepalm.

 

[DippnDots]

i watched the first two videos, frankly, i dont see anything gay there.

It's a legit tactic for marth and sheik to sit by the edge while someone has invincibility from coming back, in all those circumstances the first two videos showed, that was the intention i got from it. It's not his fault the opponent really wants to try to use that invincibility against a tactic that gets around it. I didn't see a single time where his opponent would even try to wait not close to the edge, instead they'd just try to run him down.

It's obvious that he's trying to get people to the edge, but isnt that the whole point of this game? Hit them off the stage, the edge is part of that process.

I'll do anything I can to ***** about sheik and her edge game btw

 

[Jolteon]

Grab the edge?

 

[Cactuar]

I'm just gonna let this one develop on its own.

 

[Stevo]

I like to invision Cactuars avatar saying every post he makes.

 

[Lightsyde]

My thoughts while reading:

Please read this whole post before responding to it and realize that I am trying to help clarify what seems to me to be a miscommunication about the purpose of this thread.

This thread was extremely frustrating to read because it seems as though most the people proposing alternate strategies have obviously never been edgecamped to the point of time out or at least absolute ridiculousness, especially not with a spacie.

Eggm over and over in this thread has tried to show that he is

A) Not mad about his loss to M2K.
B) Worried about the future of the metagame.

Everyone is so quick to discount what he said (I did at first, play to win is heavily engrained in this community) that they didn't bother to watch the select sections of the video where M2K REALLY abused it (e.g. last stock of Game 3 vs StricNYN3). Stric did the safest options I could see (alternating Ftilts, lasers and pivot auto cancelled Bairs) and still inevitably got gimped. If he had tried to take the edge, he would have been in an awful position (on the edge with Falco vs M2K's Sheik) and anything else he could have done other than wait would have resulted in him being called foolish for approaching/getting gimped. There are options but the risk is RIDICULOUS (stealing the edge and getting a hit on Sheik, maybe a kill vs almost unavoidably being gimped by a pro level Sheik). Falco tends to die off one mistake in the match up anyway and if anyone seriously abused this tactic 100% of the time, it would definitely make Sheik/Falco far more one sided. Never once did Eggm say the strategy was unbeatable; simply that he thought that the ramifications of it being really abused in the future would deeply hurt a game he really cares about.

Amsah came in and admitted to not even watching the parts that Eggm was even trying to highlight. Fox's laser camping is amazingly good, but Fox is not invincible during it (as Sheik is while stalling) and his lasers don't even stun so counter needling/platform camping are viable and simple for beating or at least limiting its effectiveness.

This thread also reminded me of MLG Raleigh when I picked up M2K from the airport and he told us about doing similar things with Jigglypuff (nothing but planking/edgestalling) and having 4 stocked Jman, Hax and several other pro level players with relative ease. To anyone who has ever been planked by a Jiggs in tournament as a spacie/Falcon, you know that your odds of legitamately defeating or even hitting a Jiggs who is edge stalling once your behind are not so great compared to the huge likelyhood that your going to the edge will result in you dying. It's not unbeatable but it makes playing a character like Falco (who is amazing on offense but who is more or less dead or struggling to not be dead whenever he is not on offense) much less viable. M2K might propose that you can't beat top level spacies without doing this (which is untrue now but for all I know may become true in the future); I propose that Falco might not be able to beat someone COMPLETELY AND INTELLIGENTLY abusing these strategies if they get a lead. Why should someone have to change their main character (which they are most comfortable with and presumably play the best) simply because of a tactic which, properly utilized, makes the match up far harder to win (i.e. requiring a Spacie to be twice as good at the Sheik) when it is supposedly almost even? Or in Falco/Jiggs, a tactic which is already making a difficult match up nearly unwinnable if you lose the lead? I guess this would be the rise of counter campy secondaries; which is not good or bad, but not the direction Eggm (or myself for that matter) want to see an amazing fighter go. I hope someone will correct me if I am misunderstanding.

On the flipside, Fly Amanita made a really good point; Eggm is assigning values (positive and negative) to things which do no have inherent value. I have to give some merit to that kind of that because it immediately reminded me of the type of observation that Socrates used to dominate Euthyphro. To a point I agree and I think Eggm does too: edge planking/camping is not inherently wrong.

HOWEVER, that is not what Eggm was saying. He simply saying that, in his opinion, the metagame taking this direction (I honestly do see it far more at tourneys and in videos than I used to) would be detrimental to the game as a whole because it detracts from what he sees as the goodness of fighting games, which will blow most of your minds: fighting each other.

I do not personally think edge camping/planking is unbeatable, but (when used to it's FULL POTENTIAL WHICH VERY VERY FEW HAVE DONE SO FAR) it severely limits play in a lot of ways, changes the direction of the metagame in what some would call a less than enjoyable way (this game is supposed to be fun at some point, right?) and could potentially become a big turn off for attracting new, upcoming players (which we honestly lack more than almost any other fighter). That seems to be Eggm's concern, which I can sympathize with. While I am biased because I do main Falco, I'm trying to think of this from a utilitarian perspective for the community and the next stages of the game as a whole. Implementing an edge grab rule seems like a simple fix, but I think we resent this kind of movement because Melee players (which I am 100%) do not like to admit that we saw something that worked too well in Brawl (Planking) that they, in the gayest fighter ever, had to ban and we resent that we're playing a similar game.

 

[TheManaLord]

m2k is also just better than you. put someone equal to m2k against him and im sure his camping wont succeed so greatly

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

^
to darksyde..

when was the last time m2k won a national?


if he's "easily" fourstocking jman and hax with jiggs why doesnt he just go to a national and fourstock everyone there with jigglypuff and prove that this technique is broken?????????????

lol at "the next stage of the game"


people still think melee is gonna change drastically into a wobbling, fox infinite, ledge stalling fest? WHYY!!? none of these things have been proven to be practical yet, why do people think this game is going to suddenly just transform rendering 99% of it obsolete.


this is like wobbling, people were freaking out predicting the ruin of melee, saying every 2nd game of every set would be a counterpick to FD with ice climbers...

what happened? nothing.. i honestly dont even know why wobbling is banned. ice climbers still aren't that good even with wobbling

 

[DJRome]

the whole "theory" of max potential is easily negated by fox. if that kind of theory is used, just ban fox

moreover, the simple thing to try vs planking is simply go away. in melee, u have 5 minutes usually when it starts at least. u think someone is going to do that for 5 mins and not get called for stalling? u can see when m2k gets from the edge to throw needles, he is clearly open from some angle.

in any case, i saw nothing in the videos that indicate any problem with the metagame. let me see it work brokenly in a match between 2 evenly matched players and i may believe. but then, i would need to see that consistently proven as well. otherwise it's just whining without the guise of whining

 

[Lightsyde]

m2k is also just better than you. put someone equal to m2k against him and im sure his camping wont succeed so greatly

Yes, he absolutely is better than me (or Eggm if that was who this was addressed to). If our roles were reversed, I would hope this thread would be about me as it would have been created to serve the same purpose.

^
to darksyde..

when was the last time m2k won a national?

if he's "easily" fourstocking jman and hax with jiggs why doesnt he just go to a national and fourstock everyone there with jigglypuff and prove that this technique is broken?????????????

lol at "the next stage of the game"

people still think melee is gonna change drastically into a wobbling, fox infinite, ledge stalling fest? WHYY!!? none of these things have been proven to be practical yet, why do people think this game is going to suddenly just transform rending 99% of it obsolete.

It has been a while. I have also never seen him do what I am talking about (using it to it's full potential) against a top level player. Also, he hates Jigglypuff a lot, so I'd imagine it's a pride thing? I cannot and will not definitively speak for M2K.

Furthermore, you're missing the point. This thread is no more about M2K than evolution is about Darwin. It's discussion on a tactic and its potential effects.

How has wobbling not proved practical? Wobbles got 5th at Apex because it was legal and has not placed or done well at a big tourney where it was not. (NOTE: This is not to discount Wobbles, I think he is a genius player).

How have fox infinites not turned practical? Oh yeah, we banned all the stage where you can do them for the whole match (only legal ones that come to mind are all CP stages now).

What Eggm created this thread for was that ledge stalling/planking is just the next possible thing to be on the look out for.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Let's see if Plank wins his own tourney, then talk again.

 

[Kira-]

You can beat anything in melee if you try hard enough and make enough more reads than the opponent mango is proof of that, but its unreasonable to ask people just to step it up so much so that they have to be nearly twice as good as the player to win just cause some one decides to use a broken mechanic of the game and abuse it. You ideally want the game to give the player who plays better the win the majority of the time and this mechanic turns it into whoever can get the lead and do this one tactic the win between players of equal skill.

It's so unreasonable for people like Axe to have to step it up so much just to beat you, even though he's like twice as good as you it will be close because you use a good character. it's so sad when you lose because anyone who loses with fox is terrible at this game

 

[Lightsyde]

the whole "theory" of max potential is easily negated by fox. if that kind of theory is used, just ban fox

moreover, the simple thing to try vs planking is simply go away. in melee, u have 5 minutes usually when it starts at least. u think someone is going to do that for 5 mins and not get called for stalling? u can see when m2k gets from the edge to throw needles, he is clearly open from some angle.

in any case, i saw nothing in the videos that indicate any problem with the metagame. let me see it work brokenly in a match between 2 evenly matched players and i may believe. but then, i would need to see that consistently proven as well. otherwise it's just whining without the guise of whining

Fox's firefox could almost work the same way except I think it's slightly more vulnerable, but if it was used the same way, Sheik/Jiggs players would likely be making this kind of thread/proposing to ban Fox.

Because there is no rule in place against edge stalling! That is the problem! You could call stalling all you want in that instance and a TO would have no grounds for doing anything because there is no rule against it! I've had it happen to me 5th game in a match and I was met with shrugs and indifference.

It doesn't happen to a ridiculous degree in the video but it shows that the possibility is there, which is what Eggm was talking about. It has not happened yet but Eggm is proposing the exact same thing: "let me see it work brokenly in a match between 2 evenly matched players and i may believe. but then, i would need to see that consistently proven as well."

You were so quick to call whining that you never realized that you were proposing the exact same thing.

Unproductive things

Yay, unproductive smart *** responses. Plank is honestly not capable of putting it into it's full capability; to a point, I don't think anyone except maybe M2K, Hbox or Amsah are yet and they still haven't at a national.

 

[Jonas]

moreover, the simple thing to try vs planking is simply go away. in melee, u have 5 minutes usually when it starts at least. u think someone is going to do that for 5 mins and not get called for stalling? u can see when m2k gets from the edge to throw needles, he is clearly open from some angle.

Know a guy named Tero? German Jigglypuff main? He's won tournament matches just by planking. This is not to say it's unbeatable (which I really don't think it is), but it can't be beaten by doing nothing. Not approaching does not count as stalling, so a planking player wouldn't get called for it.

 

[Kira-]

Yay, unproductive smart *** responses. Plank is honestly not capable of putting it into it's full capability; to a point, I don't think anyone except maybe M2K, Hbox or Amsah are yet and they still haven't at a national.

lol yea mango would be horrible at camping the ledge there's no chance for him to be good at it at all

 

[TheManaLord]

this topic should EVOLVE into a eggm v axe MM because of kira's post lol, GOLDEN. would be fun

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

no.. your missing my point

ok. wobbles fifth at apex.


how many tournaments have ice climbers really placed exceptionall well at since wobbling came up? maybe a handful
how many times do you see a fox infinite on pokemon stadium really determine the outcome of a match in high level tournament play? i dunno probably none..


its all the same ****. this is just people worrying about something that will never become an issue.

I would bet 100$ M2K will get ***** at pound 4 if he tries this on a top player.

 

[DJRome]

Know a guy named Tero? German Jigglypuff main? He's won tournament matches just by planking. This is not to say it's unbeatable (which I really don't think it is), but it can't be beaten by doing nothing. Not approaching does not count as stalling, so a planking player wouldn't get called for it.

this is also clearly stupid because those players are not high level if you're going to ban something, it has to be high level effective

oh look, shield grabbing is broken vs those who don't l cancel. ban it. that kind of logic is stupid and has no place itt imo

edit: actually fox infinites are pretty common on ps. but ill just leave it at that so you can ponder the hypocrisy