Tournament rules for edge camping (Serious discussion)

[AlcyoNite]

Theo soooooooo mad.

LOOOOL at calling an edge grab rule a drastic change in the metagame.

The rule wouldn't be the change. The statistically significant growth in popularity of the tactic would be a change in metagame.

 

[KirbyKaze]

What stops some of the more mobile characters from just stealing the edge, exactly?

Obviously this refers to Sheik and stuff. Puff's ledge camp is significantly gayer.

 

[Lightsyde]

Except there is random evidence of people getting a lead and planking. I've definitely had it happen to me and numerous other people in this thread said the same. It's just not be mainstreamed yet at top level yet. You play Sheik so you have an easy answer (aerial needles) for it. Spacies don't.

 

[tarheeljks]

2nd match, end of m2k's 2nd stock. M2K edgecamps and he doesn't even need to.

what is the problem w/this outside of you "not liking it"? fwiw, i'm not a huge fan of this playstyle by anymeans and would call it gay or w/e, but i also think it's out there to suggest that it needs to be banned pre-emptively.

I hope this stupid stalling/standing near the ledge crap happends to all the non-believers it is insanely frustrating.

it has definitely happened to me before (though moreso the standing near the ledge than the stalling), and while it can be very frustrating i fail to see how it is unfair. sometimes i beat people when they play this way, sometimes i do not. each time; however, the outcome is a function of relative skill level, not a tactic that makes it easy for weaker players to beat me and impossible for me to beat superior players

ITT: People present an argument with evidence and backed up theory while the other side just shouts out numbers, biased opinions and tries to point out other characters and how they are broken when in all reality, they are not.

evidence? haven't seen any evidence that this strategy is broken, though i have seen it asserted numerous times. against someone like sheik there are clear answers to stalling for many characters

 

[AlcyoNite]

Except there is random evidence of people getting a lead and planking. I've definitely had it happen to me and numerous other people in this thread said the same. It's just not be mainstreamed yet at top level yet. You play Sheik so you have an easy answer (aerial needles) for it. Spacies don't.

Outlier evidence won't convince a scientist or even an SBR. Sorry that you can't handle the heat? Meh

 

[Seikend]

If Sheik's needles are an easy answer to this, surely the mainstreaming of this would just make Fox, Falco etc. less viable, and characters like Sheik and Pikachu more viable?

Where's the issue?


EDIT: To expand, there's no reason to make a rule to prevent this if it makes a few characters unviable. It doesn't overcentralise the game, as there are plenty of characters who can supposedly deal with this.

The only way you can argue a rule to prevent ledgestalling is to claim it is indeed broken (unbeatable), or is limiting i.e. Only a handful of characters become viable.

 

[Lightsyde]

What stops some of the more mobile characters from just stealing the edge, exactly?

Obviously this refers to Sheik and stuff. Puff's ledge camp is significantly gayer.

I'll address this for Fox/Falco/Falcon because they likely who you had in mind and the characters I know best.

Also, I agree. Puff's camp is far worse.

-Fox/Falco have answers to true edge planking but not even close to what I would call really good ones for the amount of risk vs reward that is involved.

So what are these proposed answers? I'll list the first few that come to mind.

Waiting til they come off the edge: If they are ahead and planking correctly, why would they ever do that?

Committing to a Forward or Down Smash in hopes of hitting in the tiny vulnerability window: Super risky, and super dumb. Likely to get you killed.

Going over and spacing Ftilts/Pivot AC Bairs: Safe but uneffective for actual getting damage if you are way behind, not to mention putting you in the range of getting gimped.

Stealing the edge: A faster character, presumably Fox, could shine turnaround wavedash onto the edge, but their being within that range would fairly risky first off. Secondly, it could work out well if the Sheik is not paying attention and SD's because Fox took the edge; however I would think that an observant Sheik would just react to the edge being taken and land else where out of range to be punished or on a platform. Then what? You get a hit and maybe a KO depending on percents/DI etc. But you could just as easily not catch the edge if Sheik beats you there and then you are in easy gimp position. There are enough risky factors in trying to take the edge from a character with an unbelievably good gimp game vs Spacies that it barely seems worth the risk. Sadly, this seems to be the best option?

I'm very open to more ideas so please feel free to drop some knowledge on me.

 

[LatexRhombus]

going with what seikend said, i would go as far as to make the argument that even though this topic is posted now, the metagame has already been evolving from it for years...

m2k playing like this is nothing knew, and i'd say compared to "old school" days, there is a prevalence of characters among the handful of players that are themselves a tier above the rest (i.e. pp, m2k, armada, amsah, hbox, mango) to not be spacies (fox in particular, since id assume falcos lasers would make camping near a ledge less viable)

2 of those 6 players are puff mains, for instance...which was not traditionally a character mained by the highest level players of previous times

so yea, i agree is that the gimpableness of spacies (fox in particular) with respect to tactics taking place near the edge has actually helped the metagame develop and diversify...

**awaits darksydes slightly off-topic reply**

 

[Dr Peepee]

Unjustified ideals about how this game should be are rising their ugly heads all over this topic.


There is currently no problem with edge-camping. I don't believe there ever will be. If the game does come to a point where it is a serious problem (what constitutes a serious problem is another matter entirely, but I won't go into that here), we will attempt to fix it in accordance with what we know about it, which is something we can't reasonably be expected to do at the present.

Thread should have stopped with this.

<3 Fly

 

[Lightsyde]

Outlier evidence won't convince a scientist or even an SBR. Sorry that you can't handle the heat? Meh

Outlier evidence is the forerunner to moderate evidence and then abundant evidence. Evolution went through these stages before it was widely accepted. Not to say that ledge stalling is anywhere near as important as evolution (little did you know! haha), but it's just an example.

Looool stop making this about me. I'm just presenting an argument.

If Sheik's needles are an easy answer to this, surely the mainstreaming of this would just make Fox, Falco etc. less viable, and characters like Sheik and Pikachu more viable?

Where's the issue?

EDIT: To expand, there's no reason to make a rule to prevent this if it makes a few characters unviable. It doesn't overcentralise the game, as there are plenty of characters who can supposedly deal with this.

The only way you can argue a rule to prevent ledgestalling is to claim it is indeed broken (unbeatable), or is limiting i.e. Only a handful of characters become viable.

Who can deal with it?

Sheik? Yes. Puff? Yes. IC's? Yes.

Marth? Maybe. Peach? Maybe. Y Link? Maaaaybe.

Maybe one or two more. Most of those maybe's have meh match ups with Sheik anyway.

We're already dealing with a game that is limited. Our cast of REALLY viable characters is limited, our stages are limited, our items are banned etc. You think Fox/Falco can't deal with it? What the hell is Mario or G&W or Ganon going to do about it? Don't they already get demolished as is. Really you're just limiting playable characters even further by allowing a strategy which makes a large chunk of the high level players mains much less viable.

That seems like a lousy argument to me.

 

[stingers]

thread should have never been made

melee scrubs ban everything
ban mute city and floats and corneria
ban wobbling
ban brinstar
ban ledge camping

**** you all

 

[Dr Peepee]

Stop being a pain Stongers, you're making it worse.

Take it up somewhere else if you feel that way.

 

[CloneHat]

thread should have never been made

melee scrubs ban everything
ban mute city and floats and corneria
ban wobbling
ban brinstar
ban ledge camping

**** you all

...ban Metaknight....

 

[Kira-]

-Fox/Falco have answers to true edge planking but not even close to what I would call really good ones for the amount of risk vs reward that is involved.

The risk that falco takes by NOT challenging planking is automatically losing the match. The reward is to have a chance at winning. That is the risk/reward that matters, the one you're talking about is irrelevant unless the Falco is in the lead. In which case, PLANKING then becomes irrelevant.

-Sheik can deal with planking better because of her ability to throw needles diagonally, yes.

Good planking, I would assume, would mean being able to do your invincible ledgestall correctly, meaning needles would not affect you. If that is not the case, then they are not at a level where they can use this tactic successfully.

If we assume that the needles WOULD work, where the ledgestall cannot be done perfectly, then I would point out that the place Sheik needs to be in order to hit the ledge with needles is too close. Close enough for her to get hit by a ledgehop aerial from almost every good character, close enough for her to use other moves like ftilt/dtilt or dsmash to hit them. Stadium is the one exception, but even in "normal" play people get around this, so it's not unbeatable by any means.

On FD she can fullhop and do needles, leaving her extremely open and taking a long time to do a very telegraphed attack. If you think that this planking strategy includes taking advantage of laggy moves to do more damage, then you need to define planking better, because I call that solid and intelligent play. In the many examples of planking in Melee that there are online, ALL of them show the player who is onstage and behind in percent making many mistakes and missing many opportunities to take advantage of the planking player's bad position. None of these players are being beaten while playing perfectly. They are being beaten for making bad choices, or because the planking player outwitted them. Not because planking is an unbeatable tactic.

-I believe we should have a ledge grab rule because of what I have seen at tournaments and because I think it would prevent something like what we're talking about ever becoming an issue (BUT M2K, nor anyone else, has done anything to warrant this with their play thus far. M2K is SO good at what he does).

This is pretty ridiculous for so many reasons. Explaining it would be so much effort to convince one person, which is why I usually resort to trolling instead. Trolling is also much more fun. But I don't believe the ledge grab rule would even solve the issue. The issue that doesn't even exist in the first place. Man so many points to make... like Brawl's history, like Fox/Falco picking dreamland/DK64 and running away from slow characters all match, like do you realize they have to get off the edge and make a risky, laggy move in order to hit you and continue to camp successfully, etc etc

I watched a couple of these matches. Is this not you? I didn't see the crew battle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAMNkibwvr4

But congratulations, you made me use up a lot of time to accomplish very little. I suppose I shouldn't fall for pity traps and challenges to my intellect next time. Back to this:

 

[stingers]

Stop being a pain Stongers, you're making it worse.

Take it up somewhere else if you feel that way.

you're right, i'll go take it up in a thread discussing things that should be banned in melee instead

 

[AlcyoNite]

Outlier evidence is the forerunner to moderate evidence and then abundant evidence. Evolution went through these stages before it was widely accepted. Not to say that ledge stalling is anywhere near as important as evolution (little did you know! haha), but it's just an example.

Looool stop making this about me. I'm just presenting an argument.

But your argument doesn't make sense. I never doubted that the outlying reported evidence could become significant (even though...come on!), but for now, it is outlying and insignificant.

 

[Kira-]

Also I talk with Mango a lot, I think he has pretty good insight, but I don't understand the game on the level that he does at all. So that's great that you talk with PP but I'm a firm believer that if you DO understand the game well then it should show in your gameplay. Aka, the better you understand the game, the better you play.

 

[Big_R]

if you want an enemy blame brawl. this game used to be a lot cooler before that game came out and made everyone camp.

there are a few heroes. mango tries to keep it real. but this game just fell into camping.

also i have experimented and randomly got the light sheild edge hog on shieks up b. so use that it'll pry work gg

 

[Dark Hart]

oh wow

 

[Lightsyde]

so yea, i agree is that the gimpableness of spacies (fox in particular) with respect to tactics taking place near the edge has actually helped the metagame develop and diversify...

**awaits darksydes slightly off-topic reply**

I agree. When and if it gets worse, it should be dealt with accordingly. The whole point of the thread was discussion.

More specifically, my whole purpose was to present the argument better and to get a lot of feedback and learn things from my peers and players I look up to. It has worked extremely well actually and if KK ever replies, even more so. See Kira's post below.

Thread should have stopped with this.

<3 Fly

I specifically acknowledged Fly's post for his approach to the issue. It reminded me to try to keep my own prejudices in check, which can be difficult.

The risk that falco takes by NOT challenging planking is automatically losing the match. The reward is to have a chance at winning. That is the risk/reward that matters, the one you're talking about is irrelevant unless the Falco is in the lead. In which case, PLANKING then becomes irrelevant.

Good planking, I would assume, would mean being able to do your invincible ledgestall correctly, meaning needles would not affect you. If that is not the case, then they are not at a level where they can use this tactic successfully.

If we assume that the needles WOULD work, where the ledgestall cannot be done perfectly, then I would point out that the place Sheik needs to be in order to hit the ledge with needles is too close. Close enough for her to get hit by a ledgehop aerial from almost every good character, close enough for her to use other moves like ftilt/dtilt or dsmash to hit them. Stadium is the one exception, but even in "normal" play people get around this, so it's not unbeatable by any means.

On FD she can fullhop and do needles, leaving her extremely open and taking a long time to do a very telegraphed attack. If you think that this planking strategy includes taking advantage of laggy moves to do more damage, then you need to define planking better, because I call that solid and intelligent play. In the many examples of planking in Melee that there are online, ALL of them show the player who is onstage and behind in percent making many mistakes and missing many opportunities to take advantage of the planking player's bad position. None of these players are being beaten while playing perfectly. They are being beaten for making bad choices, or because the planking player outwitted them. Not because planking is an unbeatable tactic.

This is pretty ridiculous for so many reasons. Explaining it would be so much effort to convince one person, which is why I usually resort to trolling instead. Trolling is also much more fun. But I don't believe the ledge grab rule would even solve the issue. The issue that doesn't even exist in the first place. Man so many points to make... like Brawl's history, like Fox/Falco picking dreamland/DK64 and running away from slow characters all match, like do you realize they have to get off the edge and make a risky, laggy move in order to hit you and continue to camp successfully, etc etc

I watched a couple of these matches. Is this not you? I didn't see the crew battle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAMNkibwvr4

But congratulations, you made me use up a lot of time to accomplish very little. I suppose I shouldn't fall for pity traps and challenges to my intellect next time. Back to this:

First point: You seem to be agreeing with me that you auto lose for not approaching and you have only a chance at hitting them if you take a huge risk. Are you saying because they are hittable at all, which theoretically(lol) they shouldn't be, that's all that matters? Clarify if you don't mind.

The Sheik information/spacing stuff was very interesting and is part of what I've been trying to pry out of this thread.

But, unless I'm incorrect, you're further affirming that the person planking has an even better advantage against more characters (at least vs Sheik) than I thought. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Why not troll in social or local threads instead of a thread labelled "Serious Discussion"? Since the hypothetical proposal of limiting edge grabs is SO ridiculous, I would enjoy hearing how it negatively effects the game in any way, shape or form, save for maybe being a response to Fox's laser camping (Amsah vs Jman) which I can sympathize with. In what way is a spaced Fair off the edge laggy or risky? If it hits, you react and push your advantage. If it doesn't, you go back to the edge. Saying "you don't even know XXXXX" doesn't prove me wrong, it just makes me want to know your opinion.

Yeah, that's me in those matches but they are kinda silly friendlies vs a friend's pocket Fox and I've trained for a month since then so I hope I've improved somewhat. haha

Maybe you feel like you accomplished very little but your post was more informative to the actual issue than any other I've read in this thread thus far, both for understanding a Sheik mindset and the actual limitations of the tactic.

 

[Seikend]

@Darksyde

I don't believe Fox and Falco can't do anything, my argument was based on what I thought your viewpoint was.

A perfect ledgestall has full invincibility, there's no weakpoint. However, Sheik needs to commit to it from letting go of the ledge, and there's at least 37 frames from when Sheik let's go of the ledge and when a poof hitbox appears.

That's plenty of time to wavedash off and grab the ledge, for plenty of characters.

The poofstall itself isn't unbeatable.

 

[Lightsyde]

But your argument doesn't make sense. I never doubted that the outlying reported evidence could become significant (even though...come on!), but for now, it is outlying and insignificant.

I was actually just clarifying what Eggm's argument was trying to say as I understood it. You saying it doesn't make sense doesn't make it not make sense; it just means it doesn't make sense to you.

Also I talk with Mango a lot, I think he has pretty good insight, but I don't understand the game on the level that he does at all. So that's great that you talk with PP but I'm a firm believer that if you DO understand the game well then it should show in your gameplay. Aka, the better you understand the game, the better you play.

I agree. I hope to be able to continue to play better and better as I understand more. Hence why I'm posting here so that I can understand more.

also i have experimented and randomly got the light sheild edge hog on shieks up b. so use that it'll pry work gg

That sounds like **** and it might be worth trying. haha I hope it works.

@Darksyde

I don't believe Fox and Falco can't do anything, my argument was based on what I thought your viewpoint was.

A perfect ledgestall has full invincibility, there's no weakpoint. However, Sheik needs to commit to it from letting go of the ledge, and there's at least 37 frames from when Sheik let's go of the ledge and when a poof hitbox appears.

That's plenty of time to wavedash off and grab the ledge, for plenty of characters.

The poofstall itself isn't unbeatable.

No one that I have seen has said that it is and I do not believe it is but I'm going to go back and restate everything I've already said about risk/reward, possible options (which no one responded to) and other such things.

 

[Kira-]

First point: You seem to be agreeing with me that you auto lose for not approaching and you have only a chance at hitting them if you take a huge risk. Are you saying because they are hittable at all, which theoretically(lol) they shouldn't be, that's all that matters? Clarify if you don't mind.

I think you underestimate how much of a risk the Sheik is taking by playing on the ledge. Planking in melee is very vulnerable.

The Sheik information/spacing stuff was very interesting and is part of what I've been trying to pry out of this thread.

But, unless I'm incorrect, you're further affirming that the person planking has an even better advantage against more characters (at least vs Sheik) than I thought. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I was discussing how needles are not a good reason for why Sheik is good against planking. She has other options.

Why not troll in social or local threads instead of a thread labelled "Serious Discussion"? Since the hypothetical proposal of limiting edge grabs is SO ridiculous, I would enjoy hearing how it negatively effects the game in any way, shape or form, save for maybe being a response to Fox's laser camping (Amsah vs Jman) which I can sympathize with. In what way is a spaced Fair off the edge laggy or risky? If it hits, you react and push your advantage. If it doesn't, you go back to the edge. Saying "you don't even know XXXXX" doesn't prove me wrong, it just makes me want to know your opinion.

As far as I'm concerned, this discussion is a joke. I don't think I need to explain why merely adding "Serious discussion" to the topic does not affect the content.

Anytime a Sheik does fair from the ledge, there is a rather good opportunity to steal the ledge from her, or shine her off.

 

[Bones0]

I don't understand how anyone could think this tactic is broken. It's not like there have been rampant tournament victories through the usage of Sheik stalling on the ledge. If it's so god damned broken, someone could surely use it to easily win Pound, no? Yet it won't happen. Hmmmm...

 

[Seikend]

No one that I have seen has said that it is and I do not believe it is but I'm going to go back and restate everything I've already said about risk/reward, possible options (which no one responded to) and other such things.

The risk to the wavedash back is that Sheik beats you there...

But that risk is not impacted by the Sheik player at all, it's all on the opponent's side.

Sheik can't regrab the ledge any quicker. As soon as she UpBs it's entirely down to you to grab the ledge. As long as you learn the timing and can do it fast enough, the chance you get beaten to the ledge is nullified.

It's like claiming that doing Down B with fox is risky because you may end up illusioning and SDing. There's a high loss if you do mess up (usually a stock), but as long as you actually practice, the possibility of that occuring is reduced.

Wavedashing to the ledge is hardly technically demanding anyway.

 

[Cactuar]

also i have experimented and randomly got the light sheild edge hog on shieks up b. so use that it'll pry work gg

Lightshield edgehogging does not work vs Sheik's upb stall.

Sorry.

Plus, rolling into the edge to start that is a huge telegraph that Sheik can just react to...

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

haha wtf is telegraph? new melee slang...

 

[TheManaLord]

just roll to the edge and shield

 

[Cactuar]

Google Define: Telegraph

•In sporting terminology, to telegraph is to unintentionally alert an opponent to one's immediate situation or intentions. The sporting use of the term telegraph draws a direct comparison with the communication device of the same name

Yes. This is a "new" term to only melee. Because we are that special.

/sarcasm

 

[metalreflectslime]

Sheiks camping or stalling at the edge is good, but not anywhere near broken or ban worthy. So rather than drowning yourself in self pity crying over how unfair things are for your Fox, how about you improve and find ways around it? Because there are ways you can force a Sheik back on stage or kill her for staying there, but it seems like you stopped looking and simply gave up.

^^^^ This.

 

[enCouRaging Bear]

this thread reminds me of people saying chess is broken because white goes first lol
black just deals with it right? and then that game developed into a whole ****load of strategies dealing with said unfairness. if melee is the awesome game i think it is shouldn't it be able to have the same developments?

edit: i mean the game has tiers for chrissakes. don't we already acknowledge that there are imbalances that create awesomeness when people overcome them? then again i suck at this game so what do i know

 

[PoundSlap]

ledgecamping is part of the game but a lot of characters cant do it or punish it consistently. peach cannot camp on the ledge because her second jump is so laggy. also she is not fast enough to get on the ledge when sheik is doing her stall which makes sheik having a big advantage in the matchup when doing it right (especially in ntsc but also in pal because her stall isnt changed)

but as i said its part of the game. get the lead first or pick stages where platforms can help you with various ways around it and then even disadvantaged characters like peach have a chance of beating it. (which does not mean the character cannot go to the other side and start camping again. or jigglypuff can float under stages)

@eggm: if you think it is really worth calling it a serious discussion then please change the thread title into "(serious topic)" not discussion. otherwise put it out.

 

[Stev]

@eggm: if you think it is really worth calling it a serious discussion then please change the thread title into "(serious topic)" not discussion. otherwise put it out.

This ^^^

/(serious topic)

 

[AlcyoNite]

I was actually just clarifying what Eggm's argument was trying to say as I understood it. You saying it doesn't make sense doesn't make it not make sense; it just means it doesn't make sense to you.

You said that outlying evidence is the precursor to generally accepted beliefs...which can be true but is pretty rare on the whole.

It also implies the logic of:

If it is an outlier --> It will become a generally accepted notion

which does not make sense even though

If it is a generally accepted notion --> It was once an outlier

could make more sense, even though I would argue that neither is full-proof

Regardless, this is the part of your argument that I (should have more discretely) was referring to. Granted, it certainly could have not made sense only to me but...

That argument doesn't make any sense at all LOL

Oh, and I of course wasn't referring to Eggm's post at all when I quoted your post, just our little aside.

 

[Beat!]

The discussion is actually turning into "ban ledge-oriented playstyles". Wow.

I mean, I was ok with banning excessive poofstall before people came in and explained that it isn't broken, but this is just wow.

This IS "Hbox plays gay" type of johns, lol.

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

Google Define: Telegraph

•In sporting terminology, to telegraph is to unintentionally alert an opponent to one's immediate situation or intentions. The sporting use of the term telegraph draws a direct comparison with the communication device of the same name

Yes. This is a "new" term to only melee. Because we are that special.

/sarcasm

lololol calm down , it was just the second time the term had been used in like the last 2 pages and i've never heard it before

 

[Sim]

A fox player whining about Ledgestalling being broken?

This thread is Epic.

 

[Seikend]

A fox player whining about Ledgestalling being broken?

This thread is Epic.

Ganondorf, Fox, Falco, Zelda, Pikachu (and possibly others) all have perfect ledgestalls that are all quicker than Sheik's.

lol.

 

[~Twitch~]

seriously eggm??? you're such a *****, it's so easy to beat ledgestalling you're just a terrible player. and i mean GOD-AWFUL, you are THE MOST UNINTERESTING FOX TO WATCH. i will never think you're good. EVER. OH MY ****ING god get better you scrub! your fox is so generic i cannot stand it! have you ever even watched yourself play? how could you possibly even consider to keep playing your terrible, awful horrible excuse for a fox! and *****ing about ledgestalling??? HOLY **** camp him you terrible excuse for a smash player! WHY ARE YOU SO BAD?!?!!? HOW COULD ANYONE LOSE TO YOU?! i'm glad that m2k was "camping/ledgestalling hurr hurr whine" you deserve it so much!!!! by all means keep whining you ***** or you could find a way around it instead of ****ing saying "hey guys this MIGHT change the game let's ban it because it's gay." OH MY GOD I CANNOT STAND THE SIGHT OF YOU.

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

^
hahahaha